Shalom

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There is no way that non-Jewish ideas would enter into Jewish belief,

Why is there no way that could happen?    It certainly is *possible, even if you think it didn't actually happen.

especially by those Rabbis during the period when Chassidus began.

Why is it "especially" not possible regarding the rabbis in that place and time when Chassidus began?   I'm not getting that.  Is it so different than any other time in history or any other place Jews were?

[muman613]

Why is there no way that could happen?    It certainly is *possible, even if you think it didn't actually happen.

Why is it "especially" not possible regarding the rabbis in that place and time when Chassidus began?   I'm not getting that.  Is it so different than any other time in history or any other place Jews were?

I am stating my opinion, not fact at this point.

1) Chassidus places great emphasis on avoiding the appearance of imitating the non-Jewish world.

2) During the rise of Chassidus the Jewish people in Ukraine were being abused by the gentiles through pogroms and other abuses. What the Rabbis of Chassidus did was start to reveal some of the Kabbalistic ideas to the average Jew in order to infuse them with a more spiritual experience. Prior to Chassidus the only way a Jew could feel Jewish was by exerting great effort in Torah study. Chassidus brought about the idea that Mitzvot and Good deeds along with learning are important. I can find some articles on why Chassidus is considered important for those interested.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I think Christians would of influenced Jews more in Europe and Russia... Who did not believe in reincarnation... Maybe your side was influenced by something...

Why where these teachings kept secret and hidden, because you will be killed for heresy and worshiping satan!

[muman613]

http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html

The Hassidic movement ― the movement of the "pious ones" or Chassidut, in Hebrew ― was founded in the 18th century in Eastern Europe by Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer, who became known as the Ba'al Shem Tov, which means "Master of the Good Name."

He was born in 1698 in Okup, in Podolia province (of what is now Ukraine) near the Dniester River. The Ba'al Shem Tov (who was also known as the Besht) was a poor orphan child who worked in the Carpathian Mountains as a laborer. During this time he studied with a secret society of Jewish mystics, the Nestarim, and he eventually became a revered rabbi.

He traveled from community to community, developing a reputation wherever he went as a spiritual holy man and mystical healer, attracting a huge following.

His teachings revolutionized the demoralized, persecuted Jews of Eastern Europe.

After the pogroms and massacres, (see Part 49), large parts of Eastern European Jewry had slipped into dire poverty. In addition to the tremendous physical destruction wrought by the Chmielnicki massacres, the tremendous disappointment caused by the false Messiah Shabbetai Tzvi (see Part 51) left much of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe in a collective state of deep depression. One of the victims of this situation was Jewish scholarship, with only an elite few studying in yeshivas while the rest eked out a meager living. As a result of the decrease in scholarship, Jewish religious life suffered ― with the average Jew not connecting either intellectually or spiritually with God. And this is what the Ba'al Shem Tov sought to change.

His teachings (he left no writings) brought about a whole movement which emphasized the idea of bringing God into all aspects of one's life, particularly through intense prayer and joyous singing. He taught that even the deeds of the simplest Jew, if performed correctly and sincerely, were equal to those of the greatest scholars.

Hassidic thought stressed the importance of devekut or "clinging to God." This involves feeling the presence of God in all aspects of one's existence and not just through Torah study and observance of the commandments.

The following parable describes the way the early Hassidic masters diagnosed the situation:

An apprentice blacksmith, after he had learned his trade from the master, made a list for himself of how he must go about his craft. How he should pump the bellows, secure the anvil, and wield the hammer. He omitted nothing. When he went to work at the king's palace, however, he discovered to his dismay that he could not perform his duties, and was dismissed. He had forgotten to note one thing-perhaps because it was so obvious-that first he must ignite a spark to kindle the fire. He had to return to the master, who reminded him of the first principle which he had forgotten.(1)

Trying to infuse one's life with spirituality in all aspects caught on very rapidly among the simple Jews in particular. Very rapidly, especially in Eastern Europe, thousands upon thousands of Jews were drawn to the Hassidic movement.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 Ephraim I third that. I would like to see your claim that Josephus said that we the Perushim believe in reincarnation.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I think Christians would of influenced Jews more in Europe and Russia... Who did not believe in reincarnation... Maybe your side was influenced by something...

Why where these teachings kept secret and hidden, because you will be killed for heresy and worshiping satan!

Uhh, what?

I have no idea what you are saying now.   You'll have to be more clear if you have a specific point to make.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I am stating my opinion, not fact at this point.

1) Chassidus places great emphasis on avoiding the appearance of imitating the non-Jewish world.

2) During the rise of Chassidus the Jewish people in Ukraine were being abused by the gentiles through pogroms and other abuses. What the Rabbis of Chassidus did was start to reveal some of the Kabbalistic ideas to the average Jew in order to infuse them with a more spiritual experience. Prior to Chassidus the only way a Jew could feel Jewish was by exerting great effort in Torah study. Chassidus brought about the idea that Mitzvot and Good deeds along with learning are important. I can find some articles on why Chassidus is considered important for those interested.

I understand why chassidus developed, what it stressed and what its appeal was to many Jews, I'm just saying that we have seen rabbis and Jews influenced by ideas of the gentiles all throughout history, so it's not something out of the realm of possibility.  Whether or not it happened in particular case x or case y is of course always up for debate.   I just don't see why we should pretend that we've never been influenced by gentiles or vice versa.   We've been in a historical dialogue and at most times cooperation with gentiles throughout time just by virtue of living next to them, near them, among them, etc.

[Mishmaat]

And Dan thinks that because he is a moderator on the Jewish forum he is an expert on Jewish thought... Haha!

Dan would not only make a great Jew, but I think if he wanted to he would make a great rabbi. For a Noachide his knowledge of the Tanakh and Talmud is incredible.

[muman613]

Dan would not only make a great Jew, but I think if he wanted to he would make a great rabbi. For a Noachide his knowledge of the Tanakh and Talmud is incredible.

Not that I want to challenge but I have been studying Talmud and Torah for ten years. I have been studying with Rabbis and with a study partner...

I think Dan does good but says things which he doesn't realize are off-putting to real Jews. This is why I said what I did.

[Mishmaat]

Not that I want to challenge but I have been studying Talmud and Torah for ten years. I have been studying with Rabbis and with a study partner...

I think Dan does good but says things which he doesn't realize are off-putting to real Jews. This is why I said what I did.

Understood brother.

[muman613]

Understood brother.

I am trying to avoid replying when I feel emotionally upset because I have a habit of saying things in a blunt manner. If I have done so in recent replies please forgive me.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Dan would not only make a great Jew, but I think if he wanted to he would make a great rabbi. For a Noachide his knowledge of the Tanakh and Talmud is incredible.

I agree!

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Uhh, what?

I have no idea what you are saying now.   You'll have to be more clear if you have a specific point to make.

  My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later. Maybe you guys abandoned it out of fear of being accused of Satanism, and it stuck. Now here you are, fighting about a belief Jews had originally.

What sort of influence would Jews have received in Eastern Europe?

The Torah seems pretty mystical to me. Also why were some books left out of the Tanach?

Did that make sense?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Not that I want to challenge but I have been studying Talmud and Torah for ten years. I have been studying with Rabbis and with a study partner...

I think Dan does good but says things which he doesn't realize are off-putting to real Jews. This is why I said what I did.

 Soo me and KWRBT and others here and elsewhere are not "REAL JEWS" ? Not just as Jews but people who study Torah also for many years as well? Watch your statements please for your own sake.

 "My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later."

 When you mean "Kabbalah" you mean the Zohar right? Because their is Kabbalah and what is called as such.
 1) their were Sefardim who also "didn't have it". Not under Christian rule.
 2) Christians burned the Talmudh and other Jewish books regardless. And Jews kept the Torah, and Jewish books regardless of them.

[muman613]

Soo me and KWRBT and others here and elsewhere are not "REAL JEWS" ? Not just as Jews but people who study Torah also for many years as well? Watch your statements please for your own sake.

 "My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later."

 When you mean "Kabbalah" you mean the Zohar right? Because their is Kabbalah and what is called as such.
 1) their were Sefardim who also "didn't have it". Not under Christian rule.
 2) Christians burned the Talmudh and other Jewish books regardless. And Jews kept the Torah, and Jewish books regardless of them.

No, you are misreading what I am saying. If you want to read it that way, you can. But what I was saying is that there are many real Jews who study Chassidus and Kabbalah and saying it is a false belief is insulting to us. As I said , you are entitled to believe what you want as these concepts are not essential to keeping the mitzvot (which is the most important thing to all Jewish faith). So long as these beliefs do not get in the way of keeping the mitzvot as expressed in the Halacha there is not a problem.

So it should be clear that I am saying nothing about what you believe and speaking more about what the Jews who I study and pray with believe.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Soo me and KWRBT and others here and elsewhere are not "REAL JEWS" ? Not just as Jews but people who study Torah also for many years as well? Watch your statements please for your own sake.

 "My point was... Kabbalah would have been a heresy to the gentile Christians, so it was kept secret by the Jews until later."

 When you mean "Kabbalah" you mean the Zohar right? Because their is Kabbalah and what is called as such.
 1) their were Sefardim who also "didn't have it". Not under Christian rule.
 2) Christians burned the Talmudh and other Jewish books regardless. And Jews kept the Torah, and Jewish books regardless of them.

There has been Kabbalah passed down from the time of the building of the first Temple. If you don't like it, or believe me, oh well. Sue me!

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

There has been Kabbalah passed down from the time of the building of the first Temple. If you don't like it, or believe me, oh well. Sue me!

 Show how it was passed down? Even the Kabbalists claim that the Zohar was hidden and not through a direct chain of teacher to student.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Show how it was passed down? Even the Kabbalists claim that the Zohar was hidden and not through a direct chain of teacher to student.

R xzmt! Yfg dv droo ivyfrow gsv Gvnkov!

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

R xzmt! Yfg dv droo ivyfrow gsv Gvnkov!

 Haa? Do we have a problem?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

It seems like people aspiring to be Trayvons!

Did they say "Nigisaki" (Nagasaki mixed with the N word.)?

If the one being attacked was white, they would call him racist.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Show how it was passed down? Even the Kabbalists claim that the Zohar was hidden and not through a direct chain of teacher to student.

Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it. I don't know if he wrote it down but he might have transmitted it orally until the Written Zohar was written down. That's why it has some Spanish in it. Leftists claim the Spanish makes it not real. But the Talmud has Aramaic. If it's transmitted orally, it will obviously be written in the vernacular of the person writing it down.

I heard that Eliyahu HaNavi revealed some parts of Kabbalah down to The Arizal. Also, Jacob studied Kabbalah in Tzvat at the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever. The Cave of Shem and Ever still exists in Tzvat. The first Kabbalah came from the time of Adam. Obviously it is also part of Torah Mi Sinai.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Binyamin- soo everyone who disagrees is a leftists? Am I a leftists then? Is the Yaabetz, Chatam Sofer, Rav Saadia Gaon, Rambam as well (who came out against a "Kabbalah" book that is still popular today and was already written at his time, unlike the Zohar of which he didn't even hear about as it wasn't written or "revealed" as you would believe) and many others also all leftists then?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I said Leftist to mean anti-religious Liberals. You know what I mean. The Secular university "Bible scholars" who are into Biblical criticism. They also attack the Oral Torah saying that if it was transmitted orally, it would loose the original message and change over the hundreds of years since Sinai. The same people who deny the Oral Torah would use the same arguments against Kabbalah.

On the other hand all the Leftist Hollyweird people like Kabbalah as if it's some trend. Then people describe it as a "sect of Judaism". Kabbalah is not a movement or a "sect" of Judaism. It is the fourth level of Torah after Chumash, Oral Law, and Midrash. It would be like if people said Torah Judaism is a sect of Judaism.

[muman613]

Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai revealed it. I don't know if he wrote it down but he might have transmitted it orally until the Written Zohar was written down. That's why it has some Spanish in it. Leftists claim the Spanish makes it not real. But the Talmud has Aramaic. If it's transmitted orally, it will obviously be written in the vernacular of the person writing it down.

I heard that Eliyahu HaNavi revealed some parts of Kabbalah down to The Arizal. Also, Jacob studied Kabbalah in Tzvat at the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever. The Cave of Shem and Ever still exists in Tzvat. The first Kabbalah came from the time of Adam. Obviously it is also part of Torah Mi Sinai.

Yes, this is what we believe to be true. Those who are arguing against it just have decided to reject these teachings.

I think the Talmud refers to Kabbalah as part of PaRDeS... The Four levels of interpretation:

1) Pshat
2) Remes
3) Drash
4) Sod = Deep Secrets / Kabbalah

[Binyamin Yisrael]

This is where Jacob studied Kabbalah on the way to Haran.