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Throwing a stone at Markolis and Islam

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muman613:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5772/bo.html?print=1

Visiting a Church or a Mosque

Question: Is it permitted to visit or tour a church or a mosque?

Discussion: It is clearly prohibited to enter a house of avodah zarah. The Mishnah[1] prohibits one from even entering a city in which avodah zarah is present. Since it is impossible for us, who live in exile, to adhere to this prohibition, we are considered anusim—under duress—in this regard. Entering an actual house of avodah zarah, however, is clearly prohibited[2].

What remains to be clarified, however, is whether or not a church or a mosque is a house of avodah zarah. The poskim are not uniform in their classification of Christians as idol-worshipers. Although the Rambam rules unequivocally that Christians are idol-worshipers[3], other Rishonim[4] are more tentative. Their view is based on the assumption that non-Jews are considered idol-worshipers only if they totally reject the existence of G-d. Christianity, however, combines the belief in G-d with other idolatrous and alien beliefs. Such a theology is called avodah zarah b’shituf (in combination). Some poskim rule that avodah zarah b’shituf is not considered full-fledged avodah zarah[5], while others maintain that it is[6].

Moreover, there is a view[7] that gentiles nowadays cannot be considered idol-worshipers since they are merely following in the tradition of their parents (without actually worshipping idols).

Practically speaking, however, the vast majority of the poskim agree that Christianity is considered avodah zarah and a Jew is forbidden to enter a church[8]. The following reasons are offered:

* Most poskim consider Christianity to be avodah zarah[9].

* Even if avodah zarah b'shituf is permitted, it is only permitted for a non-Jew. For a Jew, however, there is no difference between avodah zarah and avodah zarah b'shituf[10]. For him, therefore, a church is considered a house of avodah zarah.

* The view of the Ran (Sanhedrin 61b) is that the belief in any religion except Judaism constitutes avodah zarah. He says the following: “...even the Christian saints, and even the...leader of the Ishmaelites, even though their followers do not consider them gods, nevertheless, since they bow to them to acknowledge that they are human incarnation of their divinities, they all have the halachic status of avodah zarah...”

* Even if present-day gentiles do not worship idols, nevertheless their churches are considered houses of idol worship, since all the services conducted therein are performed in the name of avodah zarah[11].

Regarding Islam, however, most poskim follow the opinion of the Rambam[12] that it is not considered avodah zarah[13]. Hence they do not expressly forbid entering a mosque[14]. Other poskim forbid entering a mosque as well[15]. All agree that unless there is a compelling reason to do so, mosques are off limits for any G-d-fearing Jew.

It goes without saying that the houses of worship of all other heathen religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. are considered avodah zarah and are off-limits at all times.

Question: Is one allowed to cut through the parking lot of a church?

Discussion: While church services are being held, it is clearly forbidden to enter the church’s parking lot because it may seem to a bystander that one is entering the parking lot in order to enter the church.

When church services are not being held, it is permitted to cut through the church’s parking lot. Although the poskim refer to a middas chasidus (an act of piety) not to enter a courtyard of a church, nevertheless, if the shortest route available is through the church's parking lot, it is permitted and the middas chasidus does not apply[16].



1. Avodah Zarah 11b.

2. Rambam, Peirush ha-Mishnayos, Avodah Zarah 1:3. Shach, Y.D. 149:1. See also Y.D. 150:1.

3. Hilchos Ma’achalos Asuros 11:7. The line in the Rambam referring to Christians was censored. It appears in its entirety, however, in the Frankel edition of the Rambam. See also Rambam Hilchos Avodah Zarah 9:4, and Hilchos Teshuvah 3:8 for a similar ruling.

4. Tosafos, Sanhedrin 63b in the name of Rabbeinu Tam; Meiri, Avodah Zarah 2a and 6b.

5. Rama, O.C. 156 according to Pischei Teshuvah, Y.D. 147:2; Mor u'Ketziah 224; Sho’el u’Meishiv, Tanina 1:51; Seder Mishnah, Yesodei ha-Torah 1:7.

6. Noda b'Yehudah, Tanina, Y.D. 148; Sha'ar Efrayim 24, quoting the Chelkas Mechokek; Peri Megadim, Y.D. 65:45; Teshuvos Chasam Sofer, O.C. 84. See Mishnah Berurah 304:4.

7. See Shulchan Aruch, Y.D. 148:12 and Teshuvos Yehudah Ya’aleh, Y.D. 170.

8. Teshuvos Peri ha-Sadeh 2:4; Igros Moshe, Y.D. 3:129-6.

9. Minchas Elazar 1:53-3; Yechaveh Da'as 4:45. See entire list in Yayin Malchus, pgs. 234-237

10. Binyan Tziyon 1:63.

11. Darchei Teshuvah 150:2; Tzitz Eliezer 14:91, quoting Rav C. Palagi.

12. Hilchos Ma’achalos Assuros 11:7.

13. Y.D. 124:6 and Taz 4 and Shach 12. See Ben Ish Chai, Parashas Balak.

14. See Avnei Yashfei 1:153 who quotes Rav Y.S. Elyashiv as ruling that it is not prohibited to enter a mosque.

15. Tzitz Eliezer 14:91; 18:47, based on the previously-mentioned view of the Ran. See also Meiri, Avodah Zarah 57a who quotes Chachmei Sefarad as ruling that Islam is avodah zarah.

16. Entire paragraph based on Rama, Y.D. 149:2. See also Igros Moshe, Y.D. 3:129-6.

muman613:
I was correct about their belief in stoning the Samech-Mem... But from my perspective it smacks of Avodah Zarah...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_the_Devil

Stoning of the Devil or stoning of the jamarāt (Arabic: رمي الجمرات‎) is part of the annual Islamic Hajj pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Muslim pilgrims fling pebbles at three walls, called jamarāt, in the city of Mina just east of Mecca. It is one of a series of ritual acts that must be performed in the Hajj.

The stoning is performed on the day of Eid al-Adha, and two or three days after. After the stoning is completed on the day of Eid, every pilgrim must cut or shave their hair.

On the 10th day of Dhu al-Hijjah (Eid al-Adha), pilgrims must strike the large jamrah only with seven pebbles. On each of the following two days, they must hit each of the three walls with seven pebbles, going in order from east to west. Thus at least 49 pebbles are needed for the ritual, more if some throws miss. Some pilgrims stay at Mina for an additional day, in which case they must again stone each wall seven times.

The pebbles used in the stoning are traditionally gathered at Muzdalifah, a plain southeast of Mina, on the night before the first throwing, but can also be collected at Mina.

edu:
The Talmud in tractate Sanhedrin 64a raises the issue, what happens if a person does the act of throwing a stone at Markolis, but his intention at throwing the stone was to express his contempt for the idol or to make it appear less beautiful.
The Talmud rules that even in this situation the person throwing the stone at Markolis is liable.
Tosafot Yom Tov to the Mishna 6 of chapter 7 of Sanhedrin brings down two different viewpoints to what extent would the Jew who is throwing the stone at Markolis be liable.
He says that Rabbi Ovadia of Bartenura and Rambam hold the Jew would be liable to a sin offering but not the death penalty because we consider his actions to stem from a mistake and the person didn't mean to intentionally worship idols. However, he brings also the conflicting view of Rashi and Ramach, that contend that if the Jew was properly warned that throwing the stone (even with the intention of causing disgrace) to Markolis was an act of idol worship and afterwards  he nevertheless disregarded the warning, thinking it was meaningless because he wanted to disgrace the idol, in such a case there would be a death penalty.
I brought this issue up to show that as long as the idol has not been properly nullified as an idol, even Rambam and all the more so Rashi hold that there is some sin involved in performing the act of throwing a stone at Markolis, even if the person doesn't have a Markolis ideology.

kyel:

--- Quote from: muman613 on August 02, 2013, 03:14:56 AM ---I believe it was RaMBaM who first decided that Yishmaelites were monotheists. I learned this when I was looking into whether it was prohibited for a Jew to enter a church (because where I live they make us vote in churches). In that discussion I learned that we are permitted to enter mosques but not permitted to enter churches where imagery is displayed (crosses, pictures of their messiah, etc.).

It may have been because Rambam lived in a muslim country that he found a lenient (non-offensive) decision regarding the muslims.

Also, while I am no student or professor of islam, I believe I heard it said that the reason the muslims throw rocks at the kaabah is because they believe they are stoning the HaSotan. I also don't know technically whether this falls under the category of avodah zarah being worshiped in the manner it is supposed to be worshiped. If their belief concerns stoning Samech-Mem does that constitute idol worship?

--- End quote ---

You also have to consider that Rambam did not have the historical sources we have now about Muhammad's life and relatives that show Islam is 'polytheism' painted with monotheism in their incredibly split personality character in the Qur'an. I have wondered if righteous Muslims are able to 'connect' with Gd and to what extent, or to what characteristics they rightly ascribe to him...

edu:
Bli Neder, that is to say without making a vow, I plan to discuss some time in the future about Rambam's attitude towards Islam.
Since Rambam's view has been interpreted in several ways, at the outset as an anchor, or as a contrast, I wish to bring up the opinion of Rabbeinu Nissim (the RAN) to Sanhedrin to 61b
Here is the original Hebrew:
ולמדנו מכאן שהקדשים של כותים
וגם המשוגע של הישמעאלי׳ אע״פ שאין טועין
אחריהם לעשותן אלהות הואיל ומשתחוים
לפניהם השתחואה של אלהו׳ דין ע״א יש להן
לכל דבר אסור של ע״א שלא בהדור לבד הם
משתחוים פניהם שאין הדור למתים אלא כענין
עבודה של אלהות היא עבודתן
Translation: "And we deduce from here that also the holy things of the Samaritans and the maniac of the Yishmaelites even though they do not make a mistake about them (their holy things) to make them gods nevertheless since they bow down before them a bowing of service to a god, they have a law of idolatry to them for every prohibited thing of idolatry. For they do not do it solely to honor when they bow down their faces, for their is no honoring for the dead, rather their service is as a matter of worshiping a god".
Rabbeinu Nissim's opinion should not be dismissed so lightly because Rabbi Min Hahar and Tzitz Eliezer actually bring this down as Jewish Law in Tzitz Eliezer Vol. 14, siman 91, where they give a mosque the status of a house of an idolatry based on Rabbeinu Nissim's opinion quoted above.
I will clearly admit at this point in time, that there are important rabbis in our generation who do not follow Rabbeinu Nissim's opinion.

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