Author Topic: Noachide prayer shawl?  (Read 11091 times)

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newman

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Noachide prayer shawl?
« on: July 29, 2007, 01:59:38 AM »
This noachide prayer shawl was recently introduced at a noachide conference by Rabbi Tzvi Aviner. It has no tzit tzit and also differs from the Jewish type by having a rainbow trim to signify G_d's covenent with Noach.

Firstly, is this kosher? The colours seem a bit 'loud' for schull.

Secondly, as the rainbow has been hijacked by fagotts, peaceniks and anti-zionists of late, I am worried that wearing one of these in a synagogue may cause some to think I'm one of the afore mentioned undesirables. I don't want a punch in the head by a righteous Jew. Is there an alternate prayer shawl for noachides that doesn't violate halakha?

http://noahidenations.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=107&osCsid=bba92242e2ed0ecf28b7a44d05efd37f

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 02:20:36 AM »
It seems a little strange but if it makes someone feel closer to Hashem, then so be it. It's only an article of clothing.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 02:28:00 AM »
It seems a little strange but if it makes someone feel closer to Hashem, then so be it. It's only an article of clothing.
Yeah, but I don't want somebody thinking I'm a peace now, fag activist,
anti-Israel scum bag. Those people all wear rainbow kippot & such.

And I still think the colours are too loud for schull.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 02:43:28 AM »
Personally, I don't like the idea of doing anything that makes the impression that things are being added to the 7 Noahide laws.  For this reason I don't like the term "Noahide Chossud" that the Lubovitchers use.  Stop giving the impression that you are adding anything or changing Noahidism.  The Noahides of ancient times had no prayer shawl so why are they adding this?  I don't like it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 02:47:28 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 02:53:09 AM »
Personally, I don't like the idea of doing anything that makes the impression that things are being added to the 7 Noahide laws.  For this reason I don't like the term "Noahide Chossud" that the Lubovitchers use.  Stop giving the impression that you are adding anything or changing Noahidism.
It's not really an addition. Everyone covers their head in schull, for example but it's not in the seven laws, We're also allowed to take on extra laws for extra blessing as long as we're not impersonating Jews.
Marriage ceremonies and honouring parents are examples.

The sheva mitzvot are only a bare minimum, not the limit of a noachides observance.

The reason Chabad use the term Noachide Chasid is because technically, every gentile is a nochide or ben noach (son of noach).
This differentiates a pious or observant noachide from a pagan/ idolator.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 02:56:22 AM »
I like your answer.  It just bothers me with the rainbow prayer shawl is that the Noahides of ancient times didn't have this and it gives the appearance that you are changing Noahidism even though in reality this isn't the case since you are free to make additional sub laws as you see fit.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 02:59:49 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2007, 03:13:08 AM »
I like your answer.  It just bothers me with the rainbow prayer shawl is that the Noahides of ancient times didn't have this and it gives the appearance that you are changing Noahidism even though in reality this isn't the case since you are free to make additional sub laws as you see fit.
We can't really 'make sub-laws as we see fit.' We have to get Rabbinical approval. The prosciption against adding laws referrs to ones made up by gentiles because it could pervert the faith. Any extra laws we can take on are any of the 613 Jewish laws that don't involve impersonation of a Jew. We can grow beards but not peyott. We can rest on Shabbos but not refrain from kindling fires or doing it to the same extent as a Jew. A Rabbi came up with the idea of a noachide prayer shawl as a tool for prayer focus that would also differentiate us from Jews in the schull. Like kippot, we only wear them in schull....not every day. It gets really complicated because Rabbis have not had to address this issue for 2000 years.

I'm curious about the wedding ceremonies for noachide chasids performed by Rabbis. Do they use a Chuppa?

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2007, 03:23:27 AM »
I understand why you may want Rabbinical advice, but I don't understand why you need Rabbinical approval, I need to learn more about modern Noahidism since a lot of things don't make sense to me.  To me it seems logical that Noahides should be free to uphold the Noahide laws as they see fit and add on as many additional sub laws as they see fit as long as they are optional and don't have the same authority as the original 7 (and can't be confused w/ judaism), and be free to decide things for themselves as Noahides did in ancient times, and not be controlled by Jews since it is insulting to Noahides for this to happen.  I don't understand, help me out.
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2007, 03:41:31 AM »
A theory put forward by on Rabbi was that the 7 laws (which break down into about 88 specific laws-or 66 depending on the source- as the 10 commandments become 613) should be a minimum with extra specific pieces of legislation added by gentile courts of justice according to culture provided they don't contradict the 88 laws of the sheva mitzvot. Take pornography fot example. There's no prohibition against it in the sheva mitzvot but most societies would wish to pass laws regulating it's distribution.

The big danger in not getting rabbinical guidence/ approval is that corrupt gentile leaders could try to implement self-serving, unjust laws and try to give them a holy stamp of approval by making them into mitzvot.

Another alarming prospect is some Rabbis wanting to leave the goyim to run their own race as far as worship is concerned. This will lead to disaster. Gentiles are not meant to be their own priests, that is what Jews are for ('a nation of priests'). If gentiles have their own chuches/ministers we'll end up with meglomaniacs claiming to be messiachs and inventing new replacement theologies and repeating the last 2000 years of madness.

Offline jdl4ever

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2007, 03:48:17 AM »
Newman, you are very intelligent and what you say makes a lot of sense.  It would be best in theory to have the Noahides in complete control of themselves and have Noahide priests but given that the Noahides were obliterated in the past 2000 years as you stated makes such a move risky and would have the same result.  I understand now.   

Do Noahides have their own congregations?  I don't understand why they pray in a Jewish congregation as you suggest.  Why would they do this?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 03:51:30 AM by jdl4ever »
"Enough weeping and wailing; and the following of leaders & rabbis who are pygmies of little faith & less understanding."
"I believe very much in a nation beating their swords into plowshears but when my enemy has a sword I don't want a plowshear"
-Rabbi Meir Kahane Zs'l HYD

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2007, 04:03:52 AM »
Newman, you are very intelligent and what you say makes a lot of sense.  It would be best in theory to have the Noahides in complete control of themselves and have Noahide priests but given that the Noahides were obliterated in the past 2000 years as you stated makes such a move risky and would have the same result.  I understand now.   

Do Noahides have their own congregations?  I don't understand why they pray in a Jewish congregation as you suggest.  Why would they do this?

Because we are of the same faith. Noachides practice orthodox Judaism. They just do it as it applies to them. Let me explain:

You practice the same religion as a Cohen, but not the exact same way because you have different roles in life.

A Jewess practices the same religion as you but has different rules due to her different role.

Observent Jews are the world's priests. Noachide Chasids are the lay persons. Just as a franciscan monk and Paddy the plumber are of the same faith but have different roles and different rules but still share many.

Therefor it makes sense to pray in Jewish schulls. Perhaps the Rabbis could schedual different services for noachides if there is sufficient demand.

Gentiles can't read Torah aloud in a public forum, so we can't vert well perform our own services.

If all Jews were to make Aliyah, we would make do with private meetings. Presumably there will still be Jewish envoys and Rabbis travelling to the nations as advisors. I don't believe Jews are forbidden to travel outside of EY under Talmudic Law.

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2007, 11:14:45 AM »
I, personally, think that if I gentile wants to weat a prayer shawl or even eat kosher, all the more to them. They have no need to do this, of course, but if it makes them feel closer to Hashem, awesome.

I don't understand why some Rabbis tell gentiles they CAN'T do these things... that if it's Jewish law, they aren't allowed to do it. I don't understand this. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 11:16:49 AM by jeffguy »
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2007, 11:31:10 AM »
I, personally, think that if I gentile wants to weat a prayer shawl or even eat kosher, all the more to them. They have no need to do this, of course, but if it makes them feel closer to Hashem, awesome.

I don't understand why some Rabbis tell gentiles they CAN'T do these things... that if it's Jewish law, they aren't allowed to do it. I don't understand this. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

The only laws out of the 613 we can't perform are the ones that would amount to impersonating Jews, such as not kindling fires on Shabbos, growing peyott, recieving an aliyah at schull, wearing tzit tzit etc.

It's just like a regular Jew can't keep laws that only apply to Cohenim or Levitim etc and Jewish women can't keep laws that only apply to men.

A prayer shawl is not a problem as long as it's not a Jewish prayer shawl with tzit tzit.

My querie with this one is with the loud colours.

This might help explain:
http://www.geocities.com/~Alyza/noachide/noahrole.htm


Offline Ehud

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2007, 07:28:51 PM »
I actually think that the prayer shawl is nice.  I don't think most people at the synagogue would think you're a fag.  Of course, it all comes down to what makes you comfortable and if you wouldn't feel comfortable wearing it you could always look for another one, I'm sure they're out there.
"The Jews will eventually have to face up to what you're dealing with here.  The arabs will never love you for what good you've brought them.  They don't know how to really love.  But hate!  Oh, G-d, can they hate!  And they have a deep, deep, deep resentment because you have jolted them from their delusions of grandeur and shown them for what they are-a decadent, savage people controlled by a religion that has stripped them of all human ambition . . . except for the few cruel enough and arrogant enough to command them as one commands a mob of sheep.  You are dealing with a mad society and you'd better learn how to control it."

-Excerpt from The Haj by Leon Uris

Offline Lubab

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2007, 08:58:01 PM »
This noachide prayer shawl was recently introduced at a noachide conference by Rabbi Tzvi Aviner. It has no tzit tzit and also differs from the Jewish type by having a rainbow trim to signify G_d's covenent with Noach.

Firstly, is this kosher? The colours seem a bit 'loud' for schull.

Secondly, as the rainbow has been hijacked by fagotts, peaceniks and anti-zionists of late, I am worried that wearing one of these in a synagogue may cause some to think I'm one of the afore mentioned undesirables. I don't want a punch in the head by a righteous Jew. Is there an alternate prayer shawl for noachides that doesn't violate halakha?

http://noahidenations.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=107&osCsid=bba92242e2ed0ecf28b7a44d05efd37f


Looks like someone's trying to make a quick buck. $80! What a ripper. I don't think there is any significance whatsoever to wearing such a thing.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

Offline Lubab

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2007, 09:00:14 PM »
Personally, I don't like the idea of doing anything that makes the impression that things are being added to the 7 Noahide laws.  For this reason I don't like the term "Noahide Chossud" that the Lubovitchers use.  Stop giving the impression that you are adding anything or changing Noahidism.  The Noahides of ancient times had no prayer shawl so why are they adding this?  I don't like it.

They're not adding anything with the word Noahide Chassid. That's just a quick way of saying someone is one of the "Chassidei Umos HaOlam" (gemarah's word, not ours) and a good way to drive home the point that everyone who's not Jewish is a Noahide-it's just a questions of how well he's keeping the laws.

Ironically, Lubavitcher's are usually the ones who empasize that Noahides only have 7 laws and it's the other Noahide groups that usually try to add stuff and make act like Jews.

But I'm with you on the prayer shawl-see my post above.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2007, 09:08:09 PM by lubab »
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2007, 09:01:46 PM »
This noachide prayer shawl was recently introduced at a noachide conference by Rabbi Tzvi Aviner. It has no tzit tzit and also differs from the Jewish type by having a rainbow trim to signify G_d's covenent with Noach.

Firstly, is this kosher? The colours seem a bit 'loud' for schull.

Secondly, as the rainbow has been hijacked by fagotts, peaceniks and anti-zionists of late, I am worried that wearing one of these in a synagogue may cause some to think I'm one of the afore mentioned undesirables. I don't want a punch in the head by a righteous Jew. Is there an alternate prayer shawl for noachides that doesn't violate halakha?

http://noahidenations.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=107&osCsid=bba92242e2ed0ecf28b7a44d05efd37f


Looks like someone's trying to make a quick buck. $80! What a ripper. I don't think there is any significance whatsoever to wearing such a thing.

It's not a violation to wear, though is it?

Offline Lubab

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2007, 09:03:13 PM »
It's a violation to pay so much for that pile. But no I can't imagine there is any halachic violation.
"It is not upon you to finish the work, nor are you free to desist from it." Rabbi Tarfon, Pirkei Avot.

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2007, 09:07:53 PM »
It's a violation to pay so much for that pile. But no I can't imagine there is any halachic violation.

I would prefer a plain off-white with no tzit tzit or blue border. The rainbow reminds us of the covenent, but a small 1" rainbow border would be more appropriate for scull.

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2007, 11:46:48 PM »
I see no problem with that, newman.

Just don't buy one with tzitzit already on it and remove them. Tzitzit are Holy items and can't be cut or destroyed in any way, G-d forbid. I think they sell the tallit without them on the internet so that people could tie their own if they wanted to. I know because I tied my first one when I became religious (so it meant a lot to me).
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2007, 12:05:00 AM »
I see no problem with that, newman.

Just don't buy one with tzitzit already on it and remove them. Tzitzit are Holy items and can't be cut or destroyed in any way, G-d forbid. I think they sell the tallit without them on the internet so that people could tie their own if they wanted to. I know because I tied my first one when I became religious (so it meant a lot to me).

G_d forbid! I would choke at the prospect.

We wear kippot in schull, but not every day. I know that the type of kippot worn by people in Israel denote their political leaning. ie; loose knit, close knit, fabric etc. What type does a Kahanist wear?

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2007, 12:27:14 AM »
We wear kippot in schull .... What type does a Kahanist wear?

The round ones that go on your head. lol
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2007, 12:30:27 AM »
We wear kippot in schull .... What type does a Kahanist wear?

The round ones that go on your head. lol
I'm serious. We don't want to wear the type of kippot associated with leftists. I'm gonna look it up. I suppose a kippot with an uzi and a dagger embroided on it would be inappropriate.

Offline mord

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2007, 10:21:55 AM »
many noahide's go to shul my friend went to a chabad in the fla panhandle
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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newman

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Re: Noachide prayer shawl?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 10:27:11 AM »
many noahide's go to shul my friend went to a chabad in the fla panhandle
I heard that there are some schulls where you can't wear leather shoes any time of year, not just Yom Kippur. Which ones are they?