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Offline Every Jew AK47

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Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« on: November 25, 2013, 07:56:06 PM »
Anybody know in Judaism how suicide is viewed?  I know Christians believe in hell, damnation, etc, but I am wondering how in Orthodox or Contemporary Judaism, at least, if a Jew takes his life, what eternal consequences he would face or if there could be a certain level of acceptance?

What if the person is poor, overworked, underpaid, disregarded, rejected by his own people, has no wife, family, children and has a very hard burden in life?  I know that some have lived under such harsh conditions.  Is it really a sin to end your life?   I was thinking the whole concept of ending your life being sinful was a Christian concept, as I don't read in Torah anything condemning suicide.   If anything, it seemed in some situations, suicide may have been a better option, to prevent a person from suffering needlessly, especially at the hands of his enemies, etc.   

What if this person was told by people at his synagogue that he is not needed because he doesn't have enough income.  If you are not worthy for the House of G-d, according to your fellow Jew, is committing suicide so wrong?  Where else do you have to go?

Anyhow, all this is theoretical questioning.. I just interested to hear people's Jewish perspectives about suicide, as it is a topic I rarely ever hear discussed in Jewish circles, but is quite common among Christians.   I know in some Eastern religions, like Buddhist, Shintoism, Hinduism, that suicide can even be considered honorable and respectful in many circumstances.   For example, Hindus would honor the wife for burning herself in the act of Sati, with her husband's body.  Shintos would consider suicide honorable if done to avoid living with dishonor. 
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Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 08:05:55 PM »
Suicide is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to Jews...

It is equal to MURDER...

The same punishment for murder is given to one who commits suicide.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 08:07:00 PM »
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1026523/jewish/-Does-Suicide-Lead-To-Hell.htm

Question:

Is it true that if you commit suicide, you won't go to heaven? But if there is no Jewish hell, where will you go?


Answer:

I hope the reason you are asking about suicide has nothing whatsoever to do with your current state of mind or circumstances in real life. It's not a pleasant issue to be thinking about.

You write that there is no Jewish hell. Well, not exactly true. If you've ever overstuffed yourself at a Jewish simchah, the night after was certainly a form of Jewish hell. Aside from that, we find a place called Gehinom mentioned in the Bible and discussed at length in the Talmud and many classic Jewish works. Think of it as a sort of laundromat to clean up souls that have been soiled in their passage through this world. Once sparkling clean, they can continue up to their spiritual place from whence they originated, and even higher.

A soul that was involved in a serious crime, such as homicide, G‑d forbid, needs a heavy-duty wash to get back in shape. Suicide is considered just the same as any homicide—your life doesn't belong to you any more than anyone else's life belongs to you. All life belongs to the Giver of Life—and He doesn't appreciate life being destroyed wantonly.

Nevertheless, there are those who commit suicide out of extreme distress and emotional agony. Then it's left up to the Knower of All Souls (same one as the Giver of Life, a.k.a. G‑d) to know whether this person really had any free choice left in his soul. According to that knowledge will be the clean up afforded that soul.

We have a lot of answers, essays and audio classes on the Jewish understanding of hell listed here.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 08:08:24 PM »
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/miscellaneous/?p=3892


Suicide and Burial in a Jewish Cemetery
Question: Kindly explain the religions attitude to suicide? can a suicide be buried in an orthodox way? thanks

Answer: The Torah, which begins by relating to us how G-d first breathed life into the newly fashioned human body, stands quite opposed to suicide.

Many people (if not most people) make a mistake when they look at themselves or others and judge the value of their lives. We often see ourselves as unproductive or unsuccessful compared to the bar so many set as their standard. Being young, rich, skinny, attractive, talented, outwardly happy, or, more deeply, appreciated and loved, are usually the things that society says gives one worth.

Meaning in life, however, is not determined by democracy. It is invested in us by G-d. Each of us (meaning you, me, anyone else we may be thinking of) is created in G-d’s image. G-d planted in each of us a unique potential to overcome exactly the combination of tests we alone are confronted with. Life, the Torah teaches, is all about meeting our own challenges. That is the true Jewish definition of success.

We are often challenged with pain, depression, disappointment and feelings of emptiness. It is how we battle these exclusive challenges that makes each of us uniquely who we are. Being rich or healthy or famous is not much of a test; it’s more like a lollypop. Greatness comes from facing challenges; not from the spoils of success.

The very things that may make a person depressed are, in fact, the very challenges that can give our lives real meaning. And this is the kind of real meaning the Jewish People have always been about (look at history).

Plus, we don’t own our bodies, Judaism teaches. They belong to G-d. At the end of our lives it is G-d Who takes them back.

There are plenty of references to this issue in the classical Jewish sources (see Genesis 9:5 and Talmud Baba Kama 90b, just to start). But the bottom line is that G-d really did put each of us here for a reason and, though we may wish we were here for a different reason, we have to understand that our reason and mission really is the ideal one for us: our unique potential.

And finally, we must realize and appreciate that there really is a lot of good in the world, even for every one of us. No matter what our own limitations, there are always others to whom we can offer something, others we can help. This potential we possess, especially, can add a lot of meaning to our lives (and usually it’s a meaning we can feel.)

(It occurs to me now that your question may have had to do with the special situation of physician assisted suicide [like for the terminally ill]. There also, the Torah is opposed to suicide, but the issue has certain different facets; so please let me know if that was what you really wanted addressed.)

Regarding burial, someone who committed suicide is not buried in a Jewish cemetery. But Torah authorities are often lenient in how they define who is a suicide. They will usually presume a death was simply a tragic accident unless there is irrefutable evidence that it was a suicide. All this depends on the assessment of the local Torah authorities.

All the Best,
Shlomo Shulman
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 08:10:56 PM »
One more article on the topic of Suicide:



http://www.oztorah.com/2007/04/suicide-ask-the-rabbi/


Life is the supreme value, a gift from God to be cherished, appreciated and tended. Man is made in the image of God (not in a physical but an intellectual, spiritual and moral sense), so whoever destroys a life also diminishes God. We are warned to take care of life: Deut. 4:9 (“Take heed to yourself and guard your life diligently”) and Deut. 4:15 (“Take good heed of your lives”).

Both verses are quoted in a Talmudic passage (B’rachot 32b-33a) about a Roman officer who threatened a pious Jew who, because he was praying, did not return the officer’s greeting. The officer asked, “Does not your law require you to preserve life?” – i.e. “Since your life was endangered because you ignored me, is this not the kind of emergency that allows you to push the religious law aside?”

The pious man replied, “If you had been standing before an earthly king and a friend had come and greeted you, would you have responded?” “No,” he replied. “And if you had returned his greeting, what would they have done to you?” “They would have cut off my head with the sword,” he replied. He then said to him, “If you would have acted like this before an earthly king, how much more should I do so when I am standing before the supreme King of kings, the Holy One blessed be He?”

The Roman officer – symbolic of a number of gentiles who had philosophical discussions with Jewish sages – was obviously aware of the rule that one must preserve life at all costs, but not if it involves idolatry, murder and adultery, which one must never commit even in order to stay alive.

Our abhorrence of suicide took time to develop. The Bible does not seem to disapprove explicitly when recounting possible suicides, e.g. Samson (Judges 16:30), Saul (I Samuel 31:4-5), Achitofel (II Samuel 17:23), Zimri (I Kings 6:18) and Chananiah, Mishael and Azariah (the story in the Book of Daniel was interpreted as martyrdom for the sake of God: Pesachim 53b).

In Avodah Zarah 18a, the following story is told: “They found Rabbi Chanina ben Teradyon sitting and studying Torah and gathering groups of students whilst holding a Torah scroll. They wrapped him in the scroll and surrounded him with wood and set it alight. They brought tufts of wool soaked in water and placed them over his heart to prevent a quick death… His students said, ‘Open your mouth and let the fire enter more quickly!’ He replied, ‘It is better that He who gave the soul should take it; one should not harm oneself!’

“The executioner asked him, ‘Rabbi, if I raise the flame and remove the tufts of wet wool from your heart, will you bring me into the World to Come?’ He promised him. At once he increased the flame and removed the tufts of wool and the rabbi’s soul departed speedily. The executioner himself then jumped into the fire. A heavenly voice announced, ‘Rabbi Chanina ben Teradyon and the executioner are destined for the World to Come!’.”

Ta’anit 29a reports that a Roman legionnaire saved Rabban Gamliel in return for a promise of a place in the World to Come. Having received the promise, the Roman threw himself off a roof and died, and a voice confirmed his place in the World to Come.

Despite these stories, suicide came to be regarded as a great sin, a brazen act of defiance of God. It was clear, however, that some suicides had to be viewed as martyrdom for the faith. Thus the Talmud relates in Gittin 57b (the passage is reminiscent of the Holocaust incident of the 93 Beth Jacob girls) that when 400 Jewish boys and girls were captured “for disgrace” (probably prostitution) by the Romans, they threw themselves into the sea rather than betray the Divine moral law.

In relation to a God-defying suicide, S’machot chapter 2 rules: “We do not occupy ourselves with burial rites for one who suicided intentionally”. But halachah constantly exerted itself to ensure that there would hardly ever be a case deemed to be intentional suicide. Thus the responsa of the Chatam Sofer (Yoreh De’ah 326) list considerations which might remove the stigma of intentional suicide, e.g. fear, anger or emotional instability. (Some halachists were stricter. The Gesher HaChayyim of Rabbi Yechiel Michael Tukachinsky, chapter 25, declares, “A suicide removes all chance of repentance. Instead of death expiating his sins, his death has added to them. He has denied the Divine creation and the belief in immortality”).

In The Holocaust and Halakhah, 1976 (pp. 35-40), IJ Rosenbaum observes that under “normal” circumstances it is unlikely that anyone would ask a rabbi whether they are permitted to suicide. During the Holocaust, such questions were occasionally asked, but there were relatively few suicides and therefore few recorded rabbinic responsa on the subject. One such responsum is by Rabbi L Oshry, who was asked by a leading Jew in the Kovno ghetto whether he was permitted to kill himself rather than be tortured and killed by the Nazis after seeing his family tortured and killed.

Rabbi Oshry accepts that there are degrees of duress which remove a suicide from the “intentional” category. He defines intentional suicide as “one who is an ingrate and complains even though things are good; who hates the world and rebels against God. But in relation to a tormented soul who can no longer endure his troubles, in his case there is no prohibition.”

Rabbi Oshry, who survived the Holocaust, believes that there were so few suicides among Polish Jews because they did not give up hope and because staying alive was a way of fighting back.

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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2013, 08:16:46 PM »
Quote
What if this person was told by people at his synagogue that he is not needed because he doesn't have enough income.  If you are not worthy for the House of G-d, according to your fellow Jew, is committing suicide so wrong?  Where else do you have to go?

Please tell me this is not true. No Synagogue should ever tell a Jew 'You are not needed'.... If they did this they are Rasha's of the worst calibre. Judaism believes the soul of every Jew to be needed. If you need a community and you are not in a financial situation to support the community I would recommend finding a Chabad community which will not pressure you to pay 'Synagogue dues'. I give monthly to my Chabad but on months which I have cash-flow issues I am still welcome and honored by the Rabbi and the community...

The only Jewish sanctioned suicide is for Mesirat Nefesh (Sacrificing the soul) when you are forced to commit one of the three CARDINAL sins of (Murder, Sexual Immorality, Idolatry) it is better to die by suicide than transgress these commandments..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2013, 08:17:50 PM »
  Very negatively in all aspects.  Life isn't one's own possession it is G-D's. Even with hardships it is better to just storm it all out.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2013, 08:21:38 PM »
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/788008/jewish/What-is-the-Jewish-View-on-Martyrdom.htm

Question:

Do Jews have martyrs? I know that there are religions in which it's a great thing to die for your faith, and doing so makes you a saint or gets you a ticket to paradise. What is the Jewish view? Is a person supposed to die for his beliefs?

Response:

Jews have never sought out martyrdom—it was always martyrdom that caught up to the Jews. Ever since Abraham was thrown in a fiery furnace by Nimrod, literally millions of Jews in every era of history have given up their lives rather than their faith at the hand of the Assyrians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Muslim conquerors, the Almohadin, the Crusaders, the Inquisition, the Bolsheviks, the Nazis and many more.

In Judaism, martyrdom is called Kiddush Hashem—"the sanctification of G‑d's name," and a martyr is called kadosh—"holy." And yet, a Jew is not permitted to seek martyrdom, but rather to seek life and sustain life. True, the Talmud says of those who died al Kiddush Hashem that their place in the world to come is beyond the reach of any created being.1 But then, the same Talmud also teaches that, "One hour of return and good deeds in this world is more beautiful than all the life of the world to come.2"

The Talmud tells how Rabbi Akiva, arrested for the crime of teaching Torah in public, screamed Shema Yisrael ("Hear O Israel, G‑d is our G‑d, G‑d is one") as his skin was raked off his body by Roman soldiers.

His students exclaimed, "Even now?"

Rabbi Akiva replied, "All my life I agonized over the verse, '...and you shall love G‑d...with all your life.' It means, even if they should take your life from you. I pondered, 'When will this come to me so I can fulfill it?'"3

Yet not only did Rabbi Akiva not wait for martyrdom to come to him, he ran and hid from the Roman persecutor as long as he could. Just as Jews throughout the Diaspora used every possible means to survive in the lands of their exile.

Getting conflicting messages? That's one thing we can pin down about Jews and Judaism: that there's nothing about them we can pin down. For almost every observation to one effect, you'll find another to the opposite. The same holds with martyrdom. It can be said that martyrdom is at once both the theme and the antithesis of Judaism.

You've likely heard a hundred times such statements as, "Judaism is an affirmation of life." "Judaism seeks redemption in the here and now." "We're not busy trying to get to heaven, we're trying to get heaven down to earth." All those are absolutely true. Yet, nevertheless, within that vibrant enthusiasm for life, you will find the martyr's heart that has sustained us at every point of our history.4
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2013, 08:27:41 PM »
http://breslov.org/suicide-no-thanks/

Suicide? No, thanks.
July 23rd, 2012, In Articles, by Ozer Bergman

Suicide? No, thanks. I prefer Torah.

I can’t tell you any statistics about how many people do or don’t ever think about committing suicide, or plan or attempt it. And anyway, it would be beside the point.

We know suicide is bad. First of all, the family, friends and even acquaintances of the suicide feel guilt, remorse etc. The dead person may think that he won’t suffer anymore, but we Jews believe that suicide is a crime against God (Genesis 9:5). In one way, suicide is the worst sin. Even if a person murdered, idol-worshipped, desecrated Shabbat and ate a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur a thousand times over, he can still do teshuvah (return to God). But dead man does no teshuvah.

But life, in fact, is sometimes so truly unbearable, miserable and black and hopeless (seemingly), that suicide appears to be better than life. Who says? King David! There were times that he felt overwhelmed that he wanted to end his life. He said to God, “If the words of Your Torah would not have comforted me when I was undergoing trouble after trouble, I would have uprooted myself from the world” (Tanna d’bei Eliyahu Rabba 27:13). This is learned from the verse (Psalms 119:92), “If the words of Your Torah would not have given me delight, I would have died of a broken heart.”

I can’t say if it’s the wisdom, the faith, the encouragement or something mystical, but something about learning Torah, whatever part of her, has that effect. Do yourself—and everyone you know—a favor and learn a little bit more or better or with some more caring.

© Copyright 2012 Breslov Research Institute
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2013, 09:32:09 PM »
Thanks Muman..  I read everything you wrote..  I am glad to know there is severe punishment for this action.

As for me, I feel like I am useless and nobody would miss me..  I am tired of life..  I am more or less a slave who nobody cares about.. I guess I just wasn't prestigious enough for the a**holes at the conservative/Orthodox synagogues in Seattle.  The Reformists welcomed me, but I refuse to go to a place full of homosexuals and cannot have a female rabbi leading over me.  A majority of Reform synagogues have female rabbis leading them, some of them being gay.   It's either one extreme or the other..  Hard to find a Community of Jews who is sound.

So yeah, Chabad is where I go..   But, I am no Chabadnik, that's for sure.. Glad they can accept me, although working 13+  hours a day and making little money, living far away, means I don't have much time to be as good of a Jew as my rabbi wants me to be.  Always the guilt trip of why I cannot be there on Shabbat or why I missed this holiday.  I say to myself when the Rabbi gets on my case about it: I work 13+ hours a day, I make s**t salary, I live in small little duplex..  All my money goes to taxes and living expenses.  I got to clean my own f'ing toilets, cook my own food.  I don't have a wife to cook all my meals and servants to clean my  3000 sq ft house like you do.   Sometimes I don't feel like I can relate to Chabadniks either out here in the West, because they come from so much wealth.  I know most of the Chabadniks I know come from wealthy Chassidic elite families.    Maybe, in the East Coast it's different, but out West, that's how it is.    Anyhow, at least they want me to come to the synagogue, rather than give me dirty looks and guilt trips cause I won't dump 60% of my already heavily taxed income to their kehillot.

I could go on and on and about my poor life, but I don't have the energy..  I am just a slave..  Nobody will miss this Jew when he is gone.. But, I know I must keep going on, because slavery is just the life of a Jew in this sh**ty world.  I won't lie that I am looking forward to something new in life.

Anyhow, everything I am writing is just hypothetical and for educational purposes.. 
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2013, 09:40:06 PM »
EveryJewA44,

I am glad you have a Chabad which can help you. I also apologize for the way you seem to have been treated by those other synagogues.

Do not lose hope in life. I don't know how old you are but it is my experience (in almost 50 years of life) that it is not over till it's over. I have gone through many painful transitions in my life. I was as low as one could go when I was in my 20's and involved with some pretty addictive drugs and people who were using me (either for drugs, or for other things)... But I was able to remove myself from that situation.

Regarding your prospects for finding a wife... I know this is not easy. I certainly will pray for you to find a match soon. You must actively go looking to make this shidduch, and hopefully you will find a community which can help you find a match.

If you would like to chat about your situation I would be willing to listen. Drop me a PM with any questions or thoughts, of course I will try to answer you quickly and with good intention.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Yotin

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2013, 09:48:29 PM »
Hey EveryJewA44, 

I also feel utterly useless 99% of the time...  Hardly a week goes by where I don't have such thoughts, but you gotta keep your chin up and try your best to stay positive.  I'll pray for you and any JTF members struggling with similar situations.

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2013, 09:54:59 PM »
I don't know how Judaism views suicide, but evangelical Christianity views suicide as a sin. No sin is actually unforgivable to us; that being said, it's very unlikely a real Christian would murder or rape someone.

Catholics view suicide as simply unforgivable no matter what. I don't really agree with that. I think suicide is never justifiable, but I am not going to denounce or condemn some desperate, hurting person who saw no way out of their problems.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2013, 10:02:09 PM »
Guys, I understand how you feel, I lost my mom when I was in my late teens, and just wanted to die. I felt guilty because, I wasn't there when she needed me. I knew I could not commit suicide, so I did everything I could to get my self killed. Blessed be HaShem he would not let that happen! You are here in this time for a reason! Don't let this world get you down! It's only a test!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 10:21:03 PM by אפרים בן נח »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2013, 10:07:38 PM »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2013, 10:36:25 PM »
wasn't masada a mass suicide?

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2013, 10:39:24 PM »
wasn't masada a mass suicide?
Yes! But I think that might fall into a different category.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline The Noachide

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2013, 10:39:41 PM »
Guys, I understand how you feel, I lost my mom when I was in my late teens, and just wanted to die. I felt guilty because, I wasn't there when she needed me. I knew I could not commit suicide, so I did everything I could to get my self killed. Blessed be HaShem he would not let that happen! You are here in this time for a reason! Don't let this world get you down! It's only a test!

you reminded me of this movie scene! teenage suicide - big fun

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2013, 12:00:47 AM »
wasn't masada a mass suicide?

 Yes and no. If one knows they are going to die and especially a brutal death with torture and such its not suicide in that case. Also if one knows they will get raped (as happened when Jewish children boys and girls all jumped off a boat because the evil Roman pigs were transporting them from the land of Israel to Rome in order to have their "fun" with them).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2013, 12:18:54 AM »
wasn't masada a mass suicide?

This falls under the category of 'Mesirat Nefesh' which I talked about above. Judaism allows martyrdom in the name of Hashem, to avoid the desecration of Hashems name it is possible to commit suicide rather than be denigrated before the nations.

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/201/Q3/
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Topic: Masada, Suicide

Marisa Yentel from Cordoba, Argentina wrote:

Dear Rabbi,

Hello, My name is Marisa Yentel, I am from Cordoba Argentina. My question is: If the Torah orders us to choose life, and this is against suicide, I wanted to know what is the Torah's point of view in relation to what happened at Masada. I wanted to know also sources on the matter. Thanks.


Dear Marisa Yentel,

It's interesting to note that the Mishna and Gemara, both written after the events of Masada, make no mention of it. I believe the reason for this is that no one really knew what went on at Masada. All we have is the account of Josephus in "The Jewish Wars," much of which is probably from his imagination.

If the Jews on Masada committed suicide only for the sake of evading capture or ignominy, then it would be forbidden. If however they were worried that they would be tortured and thereby forced to worship idols or participate in immorality, they would be justified in committing suicide. Since no one knows what their motivation was, we can neither approve nor condemn their action, and hence the Talmud's silence on this issue.

Sources:

Sanhedrin 74a
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2013, 12:43:15 AM »
Gittin 57 B

Rab Judah said in the name of Samuel, or it may be R. Ammi, or as some say it was taught in a Baraitha; On one occasion four hundred boys and girls were carried off for immoral purposes. They divined what they were wanted for and said to themselves, If we drown in the sea we shall attain the life of the future world. The eldest among them expounded the verse, The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring again from the depths of the sea.19  'I will bring again from Bashan,' from between the lions' teeth.20  'I will bring again from the depths of the sea,' those who drown in the sea. When the girls heard this they all leaped into the sea. The boys then drew the moral for themselves, saying, If these for whom this is natural act so, shall not we, for whom it is unnatural? They also leaped into the sea. Of them the text says, Yea, for thy sake we are killed all the day long, we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.21  Rab Judah, however, said that this refers to the woman and her seven sons.22  They brought the first before the Emperor and said to him, Serve the idol. He said to them: It is written in the Law, I am the Lord thy God.23  So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the second before the Emperor and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Thou shalt have no other gods before me.24  So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the next and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, He that sacrifices unto the gods, save unto the Lord only, shall be utterly destroyed.25  So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the next before the Emperor saying, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Thou shalt not bow down to any other god.26  So they led him away and killed him. They then brought another and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.27  So they led him away and killed him. They then brought the next and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied; It is written in the Torah, Know therefore this day and lay it to thine heart that the Lord He is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is none else.28  So they led him away and killed him. They brought the next and said to him, Serve the idol. He replied: It is written in the Torah, Thou hast avouched the Lord this day … and the Lord hath avouched thee this day;29  we have long ago sworn to the Holy One, blessed be He, that we will not exchange Him for any other god, and He also has sworn to us that He will not change us for any other people. The Emperor said: I will throw down my seal before you and you can stoop down and pick it up,30  so that they will say of you that you have conformed to the desire31  of the king. He replied; Fie on thee, Caesar, fie on thee, Caesar; if thine own honour is so important, how much more the honour of the Holy One, blessed be He! They were leading him away to kill him when his mother said: Give him to me that I may kiss him a little. She said to him: My son, go and say to your father Abraham, Thou didst bind one [son to the] altar, but I have bound seven altars. Then she also went up on to a roof and threw herself down and was killed. A voice thereupon came forth from heaven saying, A joyful mother of children.32
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2013, 01:29:48 AM »
Good find Tag...

Here is what WebShas says about Talmud portions which discuss the topic of 'suicide'.

http://www.webshas.org/nezek/suicide.htm

Suicide

Links
Putting One's Self into a Dangerous Position

Purposes
Committing Suicide to avoid sinning: Kiddushin 40a

Talmudic View of Suicide
Talmudic use of the phrase "fell [from a roof]" to euphemize for one who threw himself from a height, attempting to commit suicide: Berachot 23a; Megillah 16a


Let us learn a little from Mesechet Kiddushin, where a bit more than the issue of when taking your life may be permitted (in order to avoid transgressing)...

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Talmud - Mas. Kiddushin 40a

Imperial [armour] bearers1 guarded me all night.’2 Said they to him, ‘Perhaps you were tempted with immorality and successfully resisted?’ For it was taught: He who is tempted with immorality and successfully resists, a miracle is performed for him.
 
 [Bless ye the Lord, ye messenger's of his:] Ye mighty in strength, that fulfil his word, hearkening unto the voice of his word.3 E.g., R. Zadok and his companions. R. Zadok was summoned by a certain matron [to immorality]. Said he to her, ‘My heart is faint and I am unable; is there aught to eat?’ She answered him, ‘There is unclean food.’ ‘What am I to deduce from this?’4 he retorted: ‘that he who commits this [immorality] may eat this.’5 She then fired the oven and was placing it [the forbidden meat] therein, when he ascended and sat in it. Said she to him, ‘What is the meaning of this?’ ‘He who commits the one [immorality] falls into the other [the fire — of Gehenna]’, was his reply. ‘Had I known that it is so heinous,’ said she, ‘I would not have tormented you’.
 
 R. Kahana was selling [work-] baskets, when a certain matron made [immoral] demands upon him. Said he to her, ‘I will first adorn myself.’ He [thereupon] ascended and hurled himself6 from the roof towards earth, but Elijah came and caught him.7 ‘You have troubled me [to come] four hundred parasangs’, he reproved him. ‘What caused me [to do it],’8 he retorted; ‘is it not poverty?’9 so he gave him a shifa10 [full] of denarii.11
 
 Raba pointed out a contradiction to R. Nahman. We learnt: These are the things the fruit of which man enjoys in this world, while the principal remains for him for the future world: Viz., honouring one's parents, the practice of loving deeds, and making peace between man and his neighbour, while the study of the Torah surpasses them all. Now, in reference to honouring one's parents it is written, that thy days may be long, and that it may go well with thee.12 Of the practice of loving deeds it is written: He that pursueth after righteousness and loving kindness findeth life, righteousness and honour.13 Of peacemaking it is said: Seek peace and pursue it;14 and R. Abbahu said: We learn ‘pursuing’ from ‘pursuing’. Here it is written: ‘Seek peace and pursue it’; and elsewhere it is written: He that pursueth after righteousness and loving kindness.15 Of the study of the Law it is written, for that is thy life, and the length of thy days.16 But with respect to the dismissal of the nest17 it is also written, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days:18 then let this too be taught? — He teaches [some] and omits [others]. [What!] the Tanna states: ‘These are the things,’19 yet you say that he teaches [some] and omits [others]! — Said Raba, R. Idi explained it to me: Say ye of the righteous, when he is good, that they shall eat the fruit of their doings:20 is there then a
righteous man who is good and a righteous man who is not good? But he who is good to Heaven and good to man, he is a righteous man who is good; good to Heaven but not good to man, that is a righteous man who is not good.21 Similarly you read: Woe unto the wicked [man] [that is] evil; for the reward of his hands shall be given unto him:22 is there then a wicked man that is evil and one that is not evil? But he that is evil to Heaven and evil to man, he is a wicked man that is evil; he who is evil to Heaven but not evil to man, he is a wicked man that is not evil.
 
 Merit has both stock and fruit,for it is said: Say ye of the righteous, when he is good etc.23 Transgression has stock but not fruit,24 for it is said: Woe unto the wicked when he is evil etc.25 Then how do I interpret,26 Therefore shall they [sc. the wicked] eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices?27 Transgression which bears fruit28 has fruit; that which does not bear fruit has no fruit.29 Good intention is combined with deed,30 for it is said: Then they that feared the Lord spoke one with another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard, and a book of remembrancewas written before him, for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.31 Now, what is the meaning of ‘that thought upon his name’? — Said R. Assi: Even if one [merely] thinks of performing a precept but is forcibly prevented the Writ ascribes it to him as though he has performed it. Evil intention is not combined with deed,32 for it is said: If I regarded iniquity in my heart, The Lord would not hear.33 Then how do I interpret, behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts?34 Intention which bears fruit35 the Holy One, blessed be He, combines with deed;36 Intention which does not bear fruit the Holy One, blessed be He, does not combine with deed. Then what of the verse, that I may take the house of Israel in their own heart?37 — Said R. Aha b. Jacob: That refers to idolatry, for a Master said: Idolatry is so heinous that he who rejects it is as though he admits [the truth of] the whole Torah.38 ‘Ulla said: [This is to be explained] as R. Huna. For R. Huna said: Once a man does wrong and repeats it, it is permitted him. ‘It is permitted him’! can you really think so? — But it becomes to him as something permitted.39
 
 R. Abbahu said on R. Hanina's authority: Better had a man secretly transgress than publicly profane God's40 name, for it is said: As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God: Go ye, serve every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but my holy name shall ye not profane.41
 
 R. Il'ai the Elder said: If a man sees that his [evil] desire is conquering him, let him go to a place where he is unknown, don black and cover himself with black,42 and do as his heart desires,43 but let him not publicly profane God's name.44 But that is not so, for we learnt: He who is careless45 of his Master's honour, it were well for him that he had not come Into the world. Now, to what does this refer? — Rabbah said: To one who gazes at the [rain]bow.46 R. Joseph said: To one who secretly transgresses!47 — There is no difficulty: the one means where he can subdue his evil desires; the other, where he cannot.
 
 We learnt elsewhere: Credit is not allowed48 for the profanation of the [Divine] Name, whether It is unwitting or intentional.49 What is meant by ‘credit is not allowed?’ — Said Mar Zutra: They [sc. Heaven] do not act like a shopkeeper.50 Mar the son of Rabina said: This is to teach that if it [sc. one's account of sin and merit] is equally balanced, [the profanation of God's name] tips the scale.51
 
 Our Rabbis taught: A man should always
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline nessuno

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2013, 07:47:16 AM »
I don't know how Judaism views suicide, but evangelical Christianity views suicide as a sin. No sin is actually unforgivable to us; that being said, it's very unlikely a real Christian would murder or rape someone.

Catholics view suicide as simply unforgivable no matter what. I don't really agree with that. I think suicide is never justifiable, but I am not going to denounce or condemn some desperate, hurting person who saw no way out of their problems.
People are responsible for their own lives.  It is a gift given to them by G-d.
Evangelicals believe that suicide is a sin.  Catholics believe it is a mortal sin.  But only G-d can be the judge of that persons actions.
G-d has a way of taking care of those who take their own lives and the church prayers for them.

The church never asks how a person died.
I had two close family members pass recently.
I think people always have to take responsibility for their own actions.
G-d knows what was in their heart and will not condemn an emotionally troubled person.
That is what I believe.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2013, 10:24:36 AM »
Thanks Muman..  I read everything you wrote..  I am glad to know there is severe punishment for this action.

As for me, I feel like I am useless and nobody would miss me..  I am tired of life..  I am more or less a slave who nobody cares about..

Please don't do anything to hurt yourself.  It is worth getting some counseling to talk out these issues and maybe get to the bottom of why you are feeling this way.  Please seek out a professional to speak with so that you don't harm yourself.   You are not a slave, you are not useless, and it's not true that no one would miss you.   Please believe me before you do something that cannot be undone and would seriously hurt those around you!

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I guess I just wasn't prestigious enough for the a**holes at the conservative/Orthodox synagogues in Seattle.  The Reformists welcomed me, but I refuse to go to a place full of homosexuals and cannot have a female rabbi leading over me.  A majority of Reform synagogues have female rabbis leading them, some of them being gay.   It's either one extreme or the other..  Hard to find a Community of Jews who is sound.

So yeah, Chabad is where I go..   But, I am no Chabadnik, that's for sure.. Glad they can accept me, although working 13+  hours a day and making little money, living far away, means I don't have much time to be as good of a Jew as my rabbi wants me to be.  Always the guilt trip of why I cannot be there on Shabbat or why I missed this holiday.

Who cares what conservative so-called "shul" thinks when they don't even practice Judaism?  Forget them.  (and btw, they are also on the homosexual "rabbi" craze just like reformists).

Are you able to take off on holidays or do you have to work every day?   If you are off, maybe doing something other than work and cleaning etc will be a very positive experience for you.    If you really feel like he is guilt tripping you, I think you should politely say something that it offends you and see his response.  I highly, highly doubt he is trying to make you feel bad!   He probably just wants your company at his table.   

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Suicide And Judaism Compared To Christianity
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2013, 10:26:17 AM »
wasn't masada a mass suicide?

Different situation. 
But I have yet to find a rabbi who says what they did was religiously acceptable.  Only secular zionists celebrate it.