Author Topic: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts  (Read 18469 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
There is a difference of opinion among our sages by which method did Moshe kill the Egyptian.
Some say by physical means while others say by mentioning one of the secret names of G-d he killed him by supernatural means. Rashi agrees with this second viewpoint.
Rashi adds that Moshe looked into the future and saw this Egyptian would not father any future converts, therefore Moshe killed the Egyptian with one of the secret names of G-d.
If the Egyptian was guilty of the death penalty. For example, because he was a rapist and a Rodef and he was a member of the enemy nation, why was Moshe concerned about the possibility that a future convert might descend from that Egyptian. Usually when someone deserves to be killed, his potential future good offspring is not taken into account.
So far I thought of 2 possible answers.
Answer 1 is based on the first of 2 answers given by Tosafot to Brachot 7a. This view implies that even though someone is liable to the death penalty and it would be okay to kill him by physical means, if you are trying to use at least certain supernatural means, then the standards to kill someone are tougher. So in the case of Rabbi Yehoshua Ben Levi, the situation did not warrant killing the wicked man by supernatural means, however, in the case of Moshe since no descendant of the Egyptian would convert, even the tougher standards needed to kill by supernatural means were met.
Answer 2. According to some poskim, there is a certain gray area in halacha, where one might not be obligated to risk his life to save someone else, however, it is permitted to take  a certain amount of risk to save others. Moshe felt he fell in that category and so the factor that no future converts would descend from the Egyptian was one of the key factors that led Moshe to decide to take the risk.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 02:29:28 AM »
I heard that Moshe was the gilgul of Abel, and that Egyptian was the gilgul of Cain, so it was a measure for measure thing.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline kyel

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 684
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 02:55:09 AM »
I have only heard of Jethro Moshe's father-in-law being a gilgul of Cain

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/379844/jewish/Reincarnation-and-Reconciliation.htm

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 03:05:32 AM »
I have only heard of Jethro Moshe's father-in-law being a gilgul of Cain

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/379844/jewish/Reincarnation-and-Reconciliation.htm

He was too. There can be more than one gilgul, it's a soul, so like a fire, it doesn't cut in half when it spreads.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2013, 04:52:18 AM »
That incident happened before Moshe was called by God via the burning bush vision. I think Moshe acted on his own conscience and not on prophetic insight. It is not likely Moshe could use one of the secrete names of god or his angels of destruction since he was not a prophet at that stage and had no way to learn these secrete as he was brought up as Egyptian.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 10:59:30 AM »
That incident happened before Moshe was called by God via the burning bush vision. I think Moshe acted on his own conscience and not on prophetic insight. It is not likely Moshe could use one of the secret names of god or his angels of destruction since he was not a prophet at that stage and had no way to learn these secrets as he was brought up as Egyptian.

Then why would Rashi say it?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 11:03:37 AM »
Then why would Rashi say it?
I am not qualified to speak in his name. I am usually looking for the simplest explanation (Rashi mostly go in that way, the pshat). 

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2013, 11:23:02 AM »
  Zelhar is correct in that Moshe wasn't a Prophet yet. And about Rashi, its believed that he often goes by Pshat but in actuality its not very true. Often he goes by Remez and especially Derash.

 
  This is only 1 opinion by Rashi, actually it could have been from the Talmudh itself, but its not the Pshat because in the verses we clearly see that all Moshe did was look right, look left and then striked the evil Egyptian who was beating the Jew. He was simply looking to see if anyone else was around and would snitch on him (of which actually happened), or actually the Egyptian authorities who would kill him.

 But the question is WHY would they say this opinion to begin with, why not just stick to the Pshat of what happened? I believe its because at that time (after the time of Bar Kochba) it was very much dangerous for Jews to get inspired to rebel again. The Hachamim had to deter Jews from making a rebellion again after witnessing failed rebellions. Soo if a Jew would be reading this and at that time (after the Churban and the failed revolts) would be seeing a Roman striking a Jew he would be inspired by this verse to strike him, soo instead they told him not to because Moshe didn't just strike at seeing a Jew hit but saw past and future generations of that wicked Egyptian.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
By the way we also see this here in this discussion as well- people talk about Moshe (supposedly) being a gilgul of this guy and him being a gilgul of some other guy. W/E if e realize all this is a cover up to the simple meaning and message. In many ways Rabbi Kahane ZTL HYD stood for that simple message and tried to REVITALIZE or revive from the dead that real Jewish message in this case being that when an evil goy strikes a Jew, it is moral to kill him.


http://meir-kahane.angelfire.com/shemot.html/

This is a Jewish response – not to let the Gentile smite with impunity, for every single blow desecrates the Children of Israel and is blasphemy against G-d’s Name. Anyone who smites a Jew must be smitten in return. More than this: Moses’ smiting the Egyptian was the Children of Israel’s first response ever to the blows they had received, and foreshadowed all the blows, all the plagues, that G-d would yet inflict upon Egypt.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2013, 03:00:58 PM »
Tag Mehir, wouldn't it be easier if our sages simply included a warning: "Don't try this yourselves, you are not Moshe !". I want to think that if they came up with this midrash they found meaning to it that is beyond any specific time or historical circumstances.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2013, 04:28:58 PM »
Moshe was chosen from birth to be the redeemer of Israel. We see this from various things the sages say about Baby Moses...

First Baby Moses face shone from birth, he would not nurse from a non-Jewish woman, there is the midrash about how in Pharoahs home the necromancers had suggested that baby Moses was the predicted (by their astrology) redeemer of the Jewish people and Pharoah placed Moses before a lump of hot coals and a pile of gold coins, the angels redirected baby Moses who was reaching for the gold to grasp the coals and place them against his lips (causing him to have the speech impediment he struggled with).

Maybe he was not a 'prophet' before the incident of the burning bush... But he surely was a chosen one long before that incident.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2013, 04:33:13 PM »
Tag Mehir, wouldn't it be easier if our sages simply included a warning: "Don't try this yourselves, you are not Moshe !". I want to think that if they came up with this midrash they found meaning to it that is beyond any specific time or historical circumstances.

 As Edu said in the beginning not everyone agreed to it to begin with. I don't know for certain but perhaps their was a need at the time to do soo. + as now as well I did and do hear some people who bring this Perush and they use it to then say about how we should be careful in making judgment and to see the generations to come from that person and how they can get affected.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2013, 04:35:11 PM »
Moshe was chosen from birth to be the redeemer of Israel. We see this from various things the sages say about Baby Moses...

First Baby Moses face shone from birth, he would not nurse from a non-Jewish woman, there is the midrash about how in Pharoahs home the necromancers had suggested that baby Moses was the predicted (by their astrology) redeemer of the Jewish people and Pharoah placed Moses before a lump of hot coals and a pile of gold coins, the angels redirected baby Moses who was reaching for the gold to grasp the coals and place them against his lips (causing him to have the speech impediment he struggled with).

Maybe he was not a 'prophet' before the incident of the burning bush... But he surely was a chosen one long before that incident.

 Either way he wasn't a Prophet yet. In fact even at the burning Bush the Prophecy he reached was on a lower level (through an Angel) then what he eventually reached later on where it was directly from G-D. Soo for certain at this stage he didn't receive a Prophet revelation yet. therefore this cannot be the Pshat of the incident.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2013, 05:02:24 PM »
Here is some background on the birth of Moses brought from the medrashim...



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/111874/jewish/The-Birth-of-Moses.htm

THE LITTLE PROPHETESS

Life had become very difficult for the children of Israel in Egypt. Every day brought with it a new and more cruel decree from King Pharaoh, making life very miserable for the poor and, enslaved Hebrews. But there was at least one family which kept up its spirit and brought hope and courage to the others. That was the family of Amram, the son of Kehot great grandson of Jacob. He and his wife Jocheved, had two small children called Miriam, and Aaron.

One day Miriam went around in the house clapping her hands and saying, "I am going to have a little brother who will save our people from the hands of the Egyptians!"

And Miriam's words soon came true.

On the seventh day of Adar a baby boy was born to Amram and Jocheved, and immediately, the house became full of light. The clouds cleared and the sun shone more brightly than ever before. Amram came to his little daughter and kissed her, saying, "My darling daughter, I see now that you were right. Your new brother is not an ordinary baby. He will be the salvation of us all."

For three months the happy parents hid the newly-born baby from Pharaoh's officers who were going around from house to house, searching for Jewish babies, in order to throw them into the river, on orders from the king. At the end of three months, the officers began to search Amram's house very carefully, and Amram and Jocheved knew that they could not hide the little baby any longer. And so, Jocheved said, "I cannot protect my baby any longer, only G-d can. I will entrust my baby into His hands."

Saying this, Jocheved made a little basket of light weed, and covered it with pitch from without to make it watertight. "Let my baby not suffer from the smell of the pitch," she said, and that is why she did not pitch the basket from within. She then placed the baby into the water-tight basket, and took it down to the River Nile. She hid the basket among the papyrus reeds growing on the bank of the river.

II.

THE FATEFUL DAY

With tears in her eyes, she came back home. But little Miriam remained by the river's brink to see what would happen to her little brother.

At that very time, the Angels assembled before G-d and pleaded for the little baby. "Oh G-d," they said, "Thou hast promised that the day would come when the children of Israel would be delivered from Egypt and given Thy sacred Torah on the sixth day of Sivan. Today is the sixth of Sivan, wilt Thou let this child succumb to starvation and exposure in the waters of the Nile?"

Immediately, G-d ordered the sun to blaze away with might and main and cause all the Egyptian women and children to flock to the river to bathe and refresh themselves in the cool waters of the Nile.

Princess Bithiah, King Pharoah's daughter, called her maids and also went down to bathe in the river.

Suddenly, the princess noticed a little basket in the reeds by the river's brink. She sent one of her maids to fetch it, but her wicked maid said, "Why bother, princess, with a little basket where surely a Hebrew baby is hidden? Has not our mighty king ordered all the children to be thrown into the river without pity?"

Now the princess had lost the use of her arms through illness, and thought: "If only I could use my hands, I would fetch the little basket myself." No sooner did that kind thought flash through her mind than a wonderful thing happened to her. She suddenly felt that her hands were well and strong again. The princess went down among the reeds and picked up the little basket with her own hands.

When she opened the basket, she found there a little baby with a bright face that shone like the sun. The princess took pity on the baby and said, "Surely this is one of the unfortunate Hebrew babies. I will not be as cruel as my father; I will save him."

III.

IN HIS MOTHER'S ARMS

The princess ordered one of her Egyptian maids to feed the child. But as soon as the woman took the baby in her arms, he began to cry pitifully, and refused to be fed. The princess ordered another maid to feed the baby, but again with no success.

All this time, Miriam was standing only a little distance away, watching closely all that was happening to her little brother, but saying nothing. When she heard her little brother cry, she came forth and said to the princess: "Shall I call someone to feed the child?"

"Please do," said the princess, "and I will reward you amply."

Miriam hastened home to her mother, and told her all that had happened on the river's brink. "Hurry, mother," she said, "the princess is waiting, and the baby is hungry! "

Jocheved, rushed to the river and no sooner did she take the little baby in her arms, than it stopped crying and began to smile happily. The princess could not help smiling too, and she said to Jocheved, "I will pay you two shekels each day if you will nurse the baby for me."

"I shall be most happy to do so," Jocheved said.

"Good. I will entrust you with the baby for two years," the princess said, "but remember, that at the end of two years, you must bring the child to me at the palace safe and sound!"

"He will be the apple of my eye," Jocheved said, and carried the baby away to her home.

IV.

THE, SEVEN NAMES

Jocheved kept her promise, and at the end of two years, she brought the baby to the princess. Bithiah was delighted to see the baby. She had never seen such a beautiful and adorable child in all her life.

"What name do you call this child by?" Bithiah asked.

"We gave him six names," the mother said. "Jered, Chaver, Jekuthiel, Avigdor, Avi-Socho, and Avi-Zonoach!"

"I will give him a seventh name," Bithiah said. "I will call him Moshe (Moses), because I drew him out of the water."

And G-d said, "Because Bithiah was so kind and merciful, the child will be called by the name that she gave him."

From that day on, Moses remained in the palace and the princess loved him dearly, as though he were her own son. Everyone who came to the palace and saw Moses, admired the unusual beauty and good manners of the child. Even the cruel King Pharaoh and Queen Alpharaohnith loved him and played with him.



I am not suggesting he had 'face-to-face' prophecy before the incident of the burning bush... I am just suggesting that Moses was, from birth, destined to be the redeemer...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2013, 05:06:32 PM »
Some of the Talmudic sources regarding Moses...

http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/mitzraim.htm

Moses's Family and his Birth
Amram, Moshe's father, was the leader of his generation: Sotah 12a
Yocheved, Moshe's mother, was born when the Jews entered Egypt: Sotah 12a
Amram returned to his wife, Yocheved, on the advice of his daughter, Miriam: Sotah 12a
Amram's rationale in separating from Yocheved, and Miriam's response: Sotah 12a
When Amram and Yocheved separated, so did everyone else: Sotah 12a
When Amram reunited with Yocheved, he did so with great fanfare: Sotah 12a
When Amram reunited with Yocheved, her youth was restored to her even though she was 130 years old: Sotah 12a
Yocheved was pregnant with Moses from before she and Amram had separated, and so the Egyptians, counting from their reunion, were off by three months. As such, Yocheved was able to hide Moses for three months: Sotah 12a
The birth of Moses was painless for Yocheved, due to her righteousness: Sotah 12a
Date of Moses's Birth: Megillah 13b; Kiddushin 38a; Sotah 12b
Moses was born in a leap year: Sotah 12b
When Moses was born, the house was filled with light: Megillah 14a; Sotah 12a, 13a
When Moses was born and the house filled with light, Amram kissed Miriam's head and said, "Your prophecy is fulfilled!" Then when Moses was thrown into the sea, Amram slapped her and said, "Daughter, where is your prophecy now?!": Sotah 13a
Miriam's prophecy on the birth of Moses, and its fulfillment: Megillah 14a; Sotah 11b, 12b-13a
Moses was fit for prophecy at birth: Sotah 12a
Moses was born circumcised: Sotah 12a
They used reeds, rather than wood, for Moses's ark either because the righteous are very careful with their money, so that they won't come to theft, or because soft material would withstand harsh and soft forces: Sotah 12a
The lining of the ark was arranged so that Moses wouldn't smell the foul-smelling materials: Sotah 12a
Moses was either placed in Yam Suf, or just in a reedy area: Sotah 12a-b
Moses was termed a "youth [adolescent]" in the ark either because of his deep voice or because of a wedding canopy his mother made for him in the ark, fearing she would never see him get married: Sotah 12b
Miriam waited for an hour to see whether her brother Moses would be all right (in his ark on the river), and so the Jewish people waited seven days for her while she had tzaraat, and did not travel without her: Sotah 9b, 11a
When the Torah describes how Miriam waited to guard Moshe on the water, the verse also refers to Gd's Manifestation [Shechinah] being there, too: Sotah 11a
When Moses was put into the sea, Pharaoh's astrologers told Pharaoh there was no more need to throw children into the sea: Sotah 12b
Moses was put into the sea on the 21st of Nisan, and the angels protested that he shouldn't suffer on the water on the date when he was destined to sing to Gd by the Sea: Sotah 12b
Moses was put into the sea on the 6th of Sivan, and the angels protested that he shouldn't suffer on the water on the date when he was destined to receive the Torah: Sotah 12b
Moses refused to nurse from the Egyptian women, as they had eaten non-Kosher food, and so Miriam could suggest that a Jewish woman be brought for him: Sotah 12b
Gd gave Moshe the Torah because he weaned himself from non-Kosher milk: Sotah 12b
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2013, 05:09:09 PM »
Apparently there is a Gemara that baby Moses was 'fit for prophecy'....

Moses was fit for prophecy at birth: Sotah 12a
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2013, 05:13:20 PM »
Regarding baby Moses challenge in Pharoahs home...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1829/jewish/The-Birth-of-Moses.htm
.
.
.
Moses Becomes Tongue-Tied

Once it happened that Moses was playing on King Pharaoh's lap. He saw the shining crown, studded with jewels, and reached for it and took it off. Pharaoh, who was superstitious like all his fellow-Egyptians, and who in addition was always afraid of losing his throne, asked his astrologers and counselors for the meaning of this action of the infant. Most of them interpreted it to mean that Moses was a threat to Pharaoh's crown and suggested that the child be put to death before it could do any harm. One of the king's counselors, however, suggested that they should first test the boy and see whether his action was prompted by intelligence, or he was merely grasping for sparkling things as any other child would.

Pharaoh agreed to this, and two bowls were set down before young Moses. One contained gold and jewels, and the other held glowing fire-coals. Moses reached out for the gold, but an angel directed his hand to the coals. Moses snatched a glowing coal and put it to his lips. He burned his hand and tongue, but his life was saved. After that fateful test, Moses suffered from a slight speech defect. He could not become an orator, but his words were nevertheless to carry weight, for it was G-d's words that were spoken through his lips.
.
.
.


See also http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/shmot/007.htm
Quote
There is an interesting Midrash on this week's Torah portion. Pharaoh's astrologers had discovered that the savior of the Jewish people had been born. In order to ascertain whether or not the baby Moses was destined to be this future leader of the Jewish people, the Egyptians devised a test. They placed burning hot coals in one dish and jewels in a second dish. If Moses were to reach for the jewels, the Egyptians reasoned this to be a sign that he was a threat to the kingdom and should be killed immediately. When Moses in fact reached for the jewels, Hashem sent an angel to conceal the fact that Moses was the future leader of the Jewish people, and the angel pushed Moses' hand towards the hot coals instead. The angel not only caused the baby Moses to choose the hot coals, but Moses also placed it to his lips. As a result, he developed a speech impediment. The question arises, what did Moses do wrong as a child that he should have been punished with a lifelong handicap?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2013, 05:22:46 PM »
According to this lesson it appears that Hashem did not appear to Moses until he exhibited a trait of compassion for a sheep in his flock prior to the incident of the burning bush...

http://www.torah.org/learning/drasha/5758/shemos.html
.
.


As the book of Exodus begins, it is important to ponder what catapulted Moshe (Moses) from the position of valiant citizen to national leader. The story of Moshe's youth in Egypt is hardly expounded upon in the Torah. Yes, it tells the story of his birth and his escape in the Nile River. The Torah even mentions his great vigilance in smiting an Egyptian who struck a Hebrew. But in relating those stories, it does not leave us feeling that those acts, merited Divine ordination. It tells the tale of Moshe stopping a fight between two Hebrew fellows, and how he was forced to flee from Egypt to the wilderness of Midian because of his strong stand in chastising those Jews who quarreled. All those stories show perseverance, courage, and fortitude. Yet not one of those incidents is juxtaposed with the Divine revelation that catapults Moshe into the great spiritual and prophetic leader whom we know.

Even after the event in which he saves Yisro's (Jethro) seven daughters from evil shepherds G-d is silent, there is no pronouncement of Moses' glory or appointment of a Divine role. Hashem declares Moshe's greatness in the context of a very simple serene story.

"Moses was shepherding the sheep of Jethro his father-in-law, he guided them into the wilderness, and he arrived at the mountain of G-d toward Horeb. An angel of G-d appeared to him in a blaze of fire from amidst the bush, and he saw that the bush was burning, and the bush was not consumed. Moshe looked and analyzed the sight and he questioned, "why is the bush not being burned?" (Exodus 3:1-3). It is only in that serene setting that G-d called out "Moshe, Moshe," to which Moshe replied "Here I am." The end of that story is the beginning of the Jewish nation.

Why is the act of shepherding sheep the setting for such majestic and Divine revelation? What amazing incident occurred during the shepherding? Why didn't G-d appear to Moses after his courageous act of smiting the Egyptian or after he reproached two Hebrews who were fighting? Wouldn't that setting be the ripe moment for induction into the halls of prophecy and leadership?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2013, 05:32:12 PM »
http://www.oztorah.com/2009/01/turning-here-there-shmot/

“When Moses was grown up, he went out to his brethren, and he saw an Egyptian attacking one of his brethren. He looked this way and that, and when he saw that there was no man, he attacked the Egyptian and hid him in the sand” (Ex. 2:11-12).

Why was there “no man”? Does it mean that no-one was looking? Adopting this view, Samson Raphael Hirsch says, “He looked in all directions to be sure that he was unobserved and could dare to do the deed… He is far from that daring boldness which rushes without thinking into danger”.

The author of “HaK’tav V’haKabbalah” has a different opinion. To him, “He looked this way and that” means that he looked at the Israelites who were standing by in the expectation that one of them would come forward to help the victim, but “there was no man” – no-one had the courage to come forward and help.

In his “Ha’amek Davar”, the Natziv (Naftali Tzvi Y’hudah Berlin) sees the incident differently again. Why was the Egyptian attacking the Israelite? It seems to have been simply because he was a Jew. What did Moses do? “He looked this way and that”. He turned to this court and that, seeking a tribunal to which he could bring an appeal for justice. But Egyptian law was flawed. Members of a slave people had no legal rights or redress. The judges would not intervene. “There was no man”, and Moses felt he had to take the law into his own hands.

The Midrash comments that this is acceptable for the Almighty but not for a human being. In a passage with echoes of the Moses story, Isaiah says, “The Lord looked, and it was evil in His eyes that there was no justice. He saw there was no man and was astonished that no-one intervened, so His own arm brought salvation” (Isa. 59:15-16).

When God later told Moses he was going to die, Moses complained. “You, God, killed all the firstborn of Egypt; shall I die because of one Egyptian?” God, however, retorted, “How can You compare yourself to Me who both causes to die and restores to life?” (Midrash P’tirat Moshe). Whatever the provocation, it is a grave sin to play God and take a human life.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2013, 05:37:05 PM »
Could Moses know the 'name' of Hashem? Here is a discussion which suggests maybe he did know, without the need of prophecy...



http://www.chayas.com/10plague.htm

3) In Moses’ initial contact with the Creator, he asked to know His Name. This seems strange, since the Midrash teaches that Moses knew the Divine Name, using it to kill the Egyptian taskmaster. Being a Levite, whose tribe faithfully preserved the holy traditions of the nation, how couldn’t Moses have known the Name of His G-d? Notice that HaShem did not then reveal to Moses the essence of His most sacred Name, but replies, “I Shall Be What I Shall Be.” Now E-hiyeh (I Shall Be) is indeed one of the seven holy Names of G-d that may not be erased. However, it may well have been a mild form of rebuke. Ancient magic and sorcery involved the use of various “holy names” in incantations to cast spells and manipulate supernatural powers. This practice is alive and well in India, as well as in largely extinct schools of pseudo-Kabbalah (as opposed to genuine Qabbalah). Considering Moses’ upbringing, his question could hint to the magical perspective of the ancient world, in which Moses was raised and educated. (Moses is not a flat character, but one who grows and develops, which could warrant a special essay in itself!) It is not inconceivable that at this initial encounter with the Almighty, he requested a holy name through which he might be expected to perform HaShem's wonders.

HaShem's answer carries a simple, powerful message: “I am what I am always. I am unique and totally sovereign. You cannot control or manipulate Me with any Name. My Name(s) (are) Holy, and not meant to be used as magical implements.”
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline kyel

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 684
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2013, 07:08:25 PM »
Some of the Talmudic sources regarding Moses...

http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/mitzraim.htm

Moses's Family and his Birth
Yocheved, Moshe's mother, was born when the Jews entered Egypt: Sotah 12a



His mother was 300+ Years old???

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2013, 08:01:48 PM »
Muman even though I just skimmed through your recent posts here (as its too many) I don't think you have the direct about it (unless you can point it out). Even if he was "fit for Prophecy" he still wasn't a Prophet at the time. His first revelation was at the burning-bush and that was a lower revelation through an angel (this is what the Rambam saw's was the first Prophecy).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2013, 09:04:52 PM »

His mother was 300+ Years old???

According to the Midrash this is the case. Of course the midrash must be understood not as the simple meaning. I am not sure what is learned from this though...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112040/jewish/Yocheved.htm

Quote
Yocheved was the daughter of Levi, Jacob’s son. She was born at the very moment when Jacob and his entire household, Levi and his wife among them, had just entered the gates of Egypt. That was in the year 2238 after Creation. Yocheved was the youngest member of the seventy souls who made up Jacob’s household.

Yocheved was brought up by her father and grandfather. For seventeen years she was together with her grandfather, for Jacob died seventeen years after his coming to Egypt. Yocheved married her nephew Amram, a grandson of her father.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2013, 02:18:55 AM »
Regarding the quote brought by Muman613
Quote
"Moses was shepherding the sheep of Jethro his father-in-law, he guided them into the wilderness, and he arrived at the mountain of G-d toward Horeb. An angel of G-d appeared to him in a blaze of fire from amidst the bush, and he saw that the bush was burning, and the bush was not consumed. Moshe looked and analyzed the sight and he questioned, "why is the bush not being burned?" (Exodus 3:1-3). It is only in that serene setting that G-d called out "Moshe, Moshe," to which Moshe replied "Here I am." The end of that story is the beginning of the Jewish nation.

Why is the act of shepherding sheep the setting for such majestic and Divine revelation? What amazing incident occurred during the shepherding? Why didn't G-d appear to Moses after his courageous act of smiting the Egyptian or after he reproached two Hebrews who were fighting? Wouldn't that setting be the ripe moment for induction into the halls of prophecy and leadership?
According to the Midrash, (Shmot Rabba 2:6). It was Moshe's concern about the pain of Israel that caused him to  have the prophecy at the burning bush.
This is based on a double meaning to the words in the Biblical text Shmot/Exodus 3:4
Quote
כִּי סָר לִרְאוֹת

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2013, 09:35:32 AM »
Then why would Rashi say it?

He says it because he is quoting the midrash, which he almost always does for his Torah commentary.  (Thus, Rashi is not a "pashtan" and is almost always explaining the verses using the drashot of chazal, not giving over pshat).  Why does Rashi choose to cite this midrash?  I think it's because he had the same intention that chazal did when they first derived it.  As I heard from Rabbi Bar Hayim once,  Chazal created this drasha with a supernatural explanation to discourage any Jews from fighting against goyim following the Bar Kochba tragedy.   If Moshe was only able to kill an Egyptian using a supernatural means, reciting a divine name, which no Jew today is really capable of, then that goes to show that we are not "allowed" to kill enemies except through this method. Therefore do not fight people like this abusive egyptian because it was different when Moshe did it.     

Now, the Jews were downright powerless in France in Rashi's day with absolutely no means of self-defense.   They would be slaughtered even worse than in bar kochva's time.   Rashi is wisely trying to prevent them from doing anything violent that might upset the goyim.