Author Topic: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts  (Read 18474 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2013, 03:16:52 PM »
He says it because he is quoting the midrash, which he almost always does for his Torah commentary.  (Thus, Rashi is not a "pashtan" and is almost always explaining the verses using the drashot of chazal, not giving over pshat).  Why does Rashi choose to cite this midrash?  I think it's because he had the same intention that chazal did when they first derived it.  As I heard from Rabbi Bar Hayim once,  Chazal created this drasha with a supernatural explanation to discourage any Jews from fighting against goyim following the Bar Kochba tragedy.   If Moshe was only able to kill an Egyptian using a supernatural means, reciting a divine name, which no Jew today is really capable of, then that goes to show that we are not "allowed" to kill enemies except through this method. Therefore do not fight people like this abusive egyptian because it was different when Moshe did it.     

Now, the Jews were downright powerless in France in Rashi's day with absolutely no means of self-defense.   They would be slaughtered even worse than in bar kochva's time.   Rashi is wisely trying to prevent them from doing anything violent that might upset the goyim.

Does anyone besides Bar Hayim say this? He says a lot of things like this... I don't listen to him... Could you tell me the sources for this belief?

I find it hard to stomach... That all the Jewish sources were censored for fear of the goyim? Why didn't they remove the section about Amalek? Or about wiping out all idolatry (I am sure the goyim find that problematic)...

I would like to see others beside Bar Hayim saying this in order to accept it as anything other than one rabbis theory... Or is it Bar Hayim has a better talmid chocham than Rashi?


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2013, 03:20:44 PM »
Why would the 'censors' allow Rashi to say that the purpose of the book of Genesis (the story of Creation) is to prove that the Jewish people own Israel? You are familiar with this Rashi (I am sure)... The reason for the story of creation was to say to the nations that the land of Israel is owned by the Jews.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?aid=7781&p=1&showrashi=true

In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2013, 03:26:12 PM »
I am looking at the Rashi on Shemot and do not see him mention using the Shem Hashem to smite the egyptian:

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/torahreading.asp?aid=15559&showrashi=true&p=complete

He turned this way and that way: He saw what he [the Egyptian] had done to him [the Hebrew] in the house and what he had done to him in the field (Exod. Rabbah 1:28). But according to its simple meaning, it is to be interpreted according to its apparent meaning, i.e., he looked in all directions and saw that no one had seen him slay the Egyptian. [

and he saw that there was no man: [I.e., he saw that] there was no man destined to be descended from him [the Egyptian] who would become a proselyte [i.e., a convert]. [From Exod. Rabbah 1:29]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2013, 03:28:37 PM »
Why would the 'censors' allow Rashi to say that the purpose of the book of Genesis (the story of Creation) is to prove that the Jewish people own Israel? You are familiar with this Rashi (I am sure)... The reason for the story of creation was to say to the nations that the land of Israel is owned by the Jews.


 It was not about the censors in this case, it was about a Jew not rising up and striking a goy who was harassing a Jew (or severely beating him etc.). That is the difference, what does Rashi saing the land of Israel belonging to Jews have any threat to a Frenchman living in France at the time? To them soo what, what this Jew thinks and writes about a far away land that isn't even controlled by France. Threat? Hardly.

 Also add to that the general attitude and thinking brought about as a result of the galut as well.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 03:45:58 PM »
It was not about the censors in this case, it was about a Jew not rising up and striking a goy who was harassing a Jew (or severely beating him etc.). That is the difference, what does Rashi saing the land of Israel belonging to Jews have any threat to a Frenchman living in France at the time? To them soo what, what this Jew thinks and writes about a far away land that isn't even controlled by France. Threat? Hardly.

 Also add to that the general attitude and thinking brought about as a result of the galut as well.

I understand that some factions of Jews would think that way... But I don't think that only Moses smiting the Egyptian would offend them. The Jews, toward the end of the Torah, actually go to war with the nations and effectively terminate them... This is one reason I am not accepting this explanation as the reason some sages believe that Moses used a Name of Hashem...

I am currently looking for more background on this teaching...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 03:59:38 PM »
I understand that some factions of Jews would think that way... But I don't think that only Moses smiting the Egyptian would offend them. The Jews, toward the end of the Torah, actually go to war with the nations and effectively terminate them... This is one reason I am not accepting this explanation as the reason some sages believe that Moses used a Name of Hashem...

I am currently looking for more background on this teaching...

 Not offend Jews, possibly inspire a Jew to take action against an oppressor.

 The Torah is written letter for letter and cannot be changed. Not a Jew nor a Christian would change it in any way (as they also believe in it).

 The Talmudh and other Jewish books thy did often burn, even the censored one's.


The Talmud (at Paris), first of many such burnings over the next centuries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_book-burning_incidents#The_Talmud_.28at_Paris.29.2C_first_of_many_such_burnings_over_the_next_centuries
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2013, 04:17:17 PM »
Not offend Jews, possibly inspire a Jew to take action against an oppressor.

 The Torah is written letter for letter and cannot be changed. Not a Jew nor a Christian would change it in any way (as they also believe in it).

 The Talmudh and other Jewish books thy did often burn, even the censored one's.


The Talmud (at Paris), first of many such burnings over the next centuries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_book-burning_incidents#The_Talmud_.28at_Paris.29.2C_first_of_many_such_burnings_over_the_next_centuries

Yes I am aware of the Talmud burnings...

It is one of the things we reflect upon on 17th of Tammuz..

http://ohr.edu/1094
Quote
“WHERE ONE BURNS BOOKS, ONE WILL, IN THE END, BURN PEOPLE.”
(HEINRICH HEINE 1797-1856)

The 17th of Tammuz marks the first book burning in Jewish history, but it was certainly not the last.

The Franciscan theologian, Alexander of Hales, noted that burning the Talmud would be an appropriate punishment for anti-Christian speech or actions.

Louis IX of France ruled that the Talmud was "full of errors, and that the veil covers the heart of these people to such a degree, that these books turn the Jews... to fables and lies."

In 1242, as a result of this attitude, some 10,000 copies of the Talmud, carried in 24 wagon loads, were burned at the stake before the eyes of grieving Parisian Jews who were kept at bay by royal soldiers. Jewish communities all over Europe mourned this and later destruction of these holy books.

Rabbi Meir of Rothenburg lamented: "O [Torah] that has been consumed by fire, seek the welfare of those who mourn you."

In 1244, Pope Innocent IV ordered Louis IX to again burn the Talmud, and to forbid Jews from hiring Christian nurses or servants. Louis willingly complied.

As late as 1553, under Pope Julius III, Cardinal Peter Caraffa, head of the Inquisition and the future Pope Paul IV, ordered copies of the Talmud burned in the Papal States and all across Italy.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2013, 12:40:02 PM »
Another Derasha on this topic (I'm quoting from an article of RationalistJudaism"

"a terrific drush on this from Rabbi Dr. Natan Lopez-Cardozo, quoting Rav Shlomo Kluger: that we are being told here about the identity crisis of the prince of Egypt. When Moshe saw the Egyptian beating the Jew, “He looked this way and that way” – he looked at his royal Egyptian upbringing, and at his Jewish ancestral roots. “And he saw that there was no man” – he saw that he lacked a true identity. “And he slew the Egyptian” – within himself. “And hid him in the sand” – he totally detached himself from the Egyptian mindset, and aligned himself fully with the fate of the Jews.  "
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2013, 05:45:49 PM »
Does anyone besides Bar Hayim say this? He says a lot of things like this... I don't listen to him... Could you tell me the sources for this belief?

I find it hard to stomach... That all the Jewish sources were censored for fear of the goyim? Why didn't they remove the section about Amalek? Or about wiping out all idolatry (I am sure the goyim find that problematic)...

I would like to see others beside Bar Hayim saying this in order to accept it as anything other than one rabbis theory... Or is it Bar Hayim has a better talmid chocham than Rashi?

Wow, it's amazing to me that you could have misinterpreted the entire post that I wrote.   I would almost suggest that you did it on purpose.   Hmmm??

Reread the post you replied to and the comments you wrote in response, and tell me how what you wrote has anything to do with what I wrote

Please.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2013, 06:33:04 PM »
Wow, it's amazing to me that you could have misinterpreted the entire post that I wrote.   I would almost suggest that you did it on purpose.   Hmmm??

Reread the post you replied to and the comments you wrote in response, and tell me how what you wrote has anything to do with what I wrote

Please.

No I did not misinterpret the post. I read again your posting and you suggest that Chazal censored the teachings on this pasuk in order to make it seem that Jews are not supposed to rise up against the oppression of the nations.

Did KWRBT write this?
Quote
As I heard from Rabbi Bar Hayim once,  Chazal created this drasha with a supernatural explanation to discourage any Jews from fighting against goyim following the Bar Kochba tragedy.   If Moshe was only able to kill an Egyptian using a supernatural means, reciting a divine name, which no Jew today is really capable of, then that goes to show that we are not "allowed" to kill enemies except through this method. Therefore do not fight people like this abusive egyptian because it was different when Moshe did it.     

If so you are clearly suggesting that the Sages modified the teaching in order to satisfy the gentile nations.

But this still makes no sense, because by the 'simple meaning' of the parsha Moshe took a rock and murdered the Egyptian. So what difference does it make that he used a 'divine name'?


Can you still find a source from Chazal or others which support Rabbi Bar Chayims opinion?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2013, 08:45:42 PM »
No I did not misinterpret the post. 

Yes.  You did.

Furthermore,
This: 
Quote from: muman
If so you are clearly suggesting that the Sages modified the teaching in order to satisfy the gentile nations.

Does not follow from this:
Quote
that Chazal censored the teachings on this pasuk in order to make it seem that Jews are not supposed to rise up against the oppression of the nations.

Even though YOU assume that it does.   You at times make assumptions which are extremely accusatory and contentious when it is completely uncalled for.

Quote
But this still makes no sense, because by the 'simple meaning' of the parsha Moshe took a rock and murdered the Egyptian. So what difference does it make that he used a 'divine name'?   

Chazal, as they often do with drashot, are adding a deeper level of understanding and meaning to the verse's supposed "simple meaning."   And as you know, Judaism functions based on how the sages understand the pesukim, not how any old shmo who opens up the text and uses a thesaurus might understand the verse.     Would you tell me that an "Eye for an eye" should go by the "simple meaning of the verse" and therefore what chazal said about its meaning is irrelevant?    No, of course not.   So apply the same standard here.  What chazal say matters.   Rav Bar Hayim agrees with that, and so does every sage and every posek from time immemorial.  So it is you, muman613, who must find a source to support your supposed point that what chazal say about a verse makes no difference.

As to your question, I already made this clear.  Chazal are saying in THAT MIDRASH, that Moshe did not kill the Egyptian with a rock, he killed him by invoking the Divine name.    That makes a big difference because no Jew today is capable of killing someone by that means.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2013, 08:47:41 PM »
I understand that some factions of Jews would think that way... But I don't think that only Moses smiting the Egyptian would offend them. The Jews, toward the end of the Torah, actually go to war with the nations and effectively terminate them...

It's not about "offending" anyone.   This is one reason you clearly misinterpreted my post.   I'm not talking about offending people, Jew or non-Jew.   I'm talking about discouraging Jews from taking revenge in individual or collective acts of violence as Moshe undertook in this verse.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2013, 09:06:47 PM »
Does anyone besides Bar Hayim say this? He says a lot of things like this... I don't listen to him...


That's your loss.


Quote
Could you tell me the sources for this belief? 
   Rational thought?

What belief in particular are you struggling with?   The belief that chazal authored midrashim?   The belief that chazal had a purpose in authoring them?    Something else?   Please elaborate.

Quote
I find it hard to stomach... That all the Jewish sources were censored for fear of the goyim? 

Actually, I didn't make this claim.   But all the Jewish sources WERE censored by the Catholic Church which controlled the printing presses.   Were you not aware of that?     

However, that is clearly NOT the point I'm making about this particular midrash.    Chazal derived this idea with a practical purpose in mind following the failure of the Bar Kochva revolt.  That purpose was not "Avoid offending non-Jews."   That purpose was "Discourage Jews from fighting evil/abusive non-Jews like the Egyptian in this verse so as not to provoke the physical attack of non-Jewish armed attackers."

I don't see what is so implausible about this suggestion.


Quote
Why didn't they remove the section about Amalek? Or about wiping out all idolatry (I am sure the goyim find that problematic)...   

Because I never said that all verses which goyim find "problematic" should be "removed" (God forbid).
I also never said that chazal felt that way.
I also never said that chazal would ever remove or change the text.


But here are some more reasons:   Aside from the fact that we don't "remove verses," chazal DID temper the discussion of Amalek by saying that we don't know who amalek is in our day.   So why would you equate "goyim" with "Amalek?"   Only some goyim are Amalek, and we don't know who they are (unless, according to some opinions, they express outright nazism).  No goy would think that we have it out for them based on Amalek.   But neo-nazis DO actually pretend that we have genocidal intentions with the world based on the Amalek verses.   I have seen what they write about it.  So what?

Most non-Jews don't consider themselves idol worshipers, so they are not bothered by the Torah calling for it to be removed.  However, some understand that we consider their religion to be idol worship, and they ARE offended by our desire to remove their idols from Eretz Yisrael, and so on.   So what?

These have nothing to do with this thread which is about Moshe killing an Egyptian.

Quote
I would like to see others beside Bar Hayim saying this in order to accept it as anything other than one rabbis theory...

  Saying what exactly?   Point it out from among the things that I said, not the things that you attributed to me but which I did not actually say.

Quote
Or is it Bar Hayim has a better talmid chocham than Rashi?

Huh?   Where did Rashi disagree with this view?    And in what world does having a view different from rashi assert being a better talmid chacham than Rashi?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2013, 09:07:48 PM »
It's not about "offending" anyone.   This is one reason you clearly misinterpreted my post.   I'm not talking about offending people, Jew or non-Jew.   I'm talking about discouraging Jews from taking revenge in individual or collective acts of violence as Moshe undertook in this verse.

Again I do not believe this... Can you refer to some source (which medresh) says that Chazal didn't want the Jewish people to react to the oppression of the nations?

This whole thread of yours seems unreal... You have mentioned one Rabbi who says this, and cannot tell me where this is learned from... This is why I reject your comment.

Whether Moses killed the Egyptian with a rock or with the Divine name of Hashem makes no difference. The fact that Moshe killed the Egyptian is the lesson, that a Jew cannot stand idle as his fellow Jew is oppressed. I do not think that anything is changed by saying that it was through a divine name.

I was just interested if there were actual sources for this belief, but as you continue making personal issue out of it, I am pretty sure there is no real source of this idea. Maybe you can ask Rabbi Bar Hayim to provide the sources for his statement.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2013, 09:11:06 PM »
KWRBT,

Why is it so difficult for you to understand that you go on and on about this?

You state that the Sages introduced a teaching about the killing of the Egyptian for the purpose of preventing Jews from murdering our oppressors... You claim this happened after Bar Kochba, without providing any source for this...

There are several parts of the Torah which suggest that Jews should not stand idle when our fellow Jews are threatened. I can see no benefit to our mesorah to teach that Moses killed the Egyptian by a divine name (so somehow that means we cannot act to save our brothers)... I simply find  that fantastical...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2013, 09:14:03 PM »
Please provide the original source of this idea... That the chazal 'made up' this teaching to prevent Jews from 'provoking' attacks from non-Jews...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2013, 09:21:57 PM »
http://torahinmotion.org/discussions-and-blogs/shemot-ineffable-name

Shemot: The Ineffable Name

"And he saw an Egyptian man hitting a Hebrew of his brothers" (2:11). To the slave in Egypt, being beaten up by our tormentors was the norm, and the Jewish people--having no recourse or justice--suffered in silence. Moshe's act of fighting back on behalf of some "lowly" slave was shocking for those immersed in Egyptian culture, and it nearly cost him his life.

With the Jews learning to defend themselves, the process of redemption could now begin. Years earlier, the enslavement of the Jewish people began with a well-orchestrated state-sponsored propaganda campaign to demonize the Jewish people. "He [Pharaoh] said to his people: Now the nation of the people of Israel is greater and more powerful than us".  Only after hateful speech could Pharaoh impose upon them taskmasters, to "afflict them with their burdens [and to] build storage cities for Pharaoh", soon to be followed up by the tossing of Jewish babies into the Nile. 

Just as the process of slavery began with speech, so too did the process of redemption. "And he said: 'Who made you a master and judge over us? Helargeinu atta omer, do you say to kill us, as you killed the Egyptian?'" (2:14). Our rabbis, ever so sensitive to the wording of the text, add an additional layer of meaning to the phrase helargeinu atta omer, do you say to kill us. They comment that Moshe killed the Egyptian using words as his weapon, his words being the shem hameforash, the ineffable Name of G-d.

Of course, such a comment "contradicts" the text itself where exactly two verses prior, we are told that "he saw that there was no man [looking] and he hit the Egyptian and buried him in the sand". While Moshe may have struck the Egyptian, our rabbis were noting that words are more powerful and dangerous than any weapon. No weapon is used until it is preceded by demonization. Speech may kill, yet those who seek life are able to "guard their tongue from speaking evil and [their] lips from guile". The voice of Jacob can be more powerful than the hands of Eisav. It is not mere coincidence that the first place the Jewish people encamped upon departing Egypt was Pi Hacherot, literally "The Mouth of Freedom". Slaves are silent; only the redeemed can speak. Pesach, the holiday that celebrates this transformation from slavery to freedom, is really a conjunction of two words: peh sach, the mouth speaks.

The Torah begins with the awesome voice of G-d creating the world through the power of speech. "In ten utterances was the world created".

The shem hameforash brings the power of the Divine to earth. It is to be used sparingly and carefully. There is nothing more powerful and fearsome than the name of G-d, a name representing the Divine essence.  It is only to be used by the high priest in the Temple, where the Divine presence rests. And when one hears the name, one must prostrate oneself; with G-d's presence manifest, man is powerless.

Vayikra b'shem Hashem, and they called in the name of G-d, is a refrain we hear over and over as our founding fathers brought the message of G-d to the world, constantly calling in the name of G-d. Abraham, and hence the Jewish people, are descendants of Shem, and our lives must ensure that our lifestyle does not "profane My holy name", so that "I will be made holy in the midst of the people of Israel" (Vayikra 22:32).

"And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with El, but My name I did not make known to them". There are many names of G-d, each representing a different aspect of the Divine. It is our task to live up to G-d's name, a name that will ensure the redemption of the Jewish people.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2013, 11:15:48 PM »
but as you continue making personal issue out of it, I am pretty sure there is no real source of this idea. Maybe you can ask Rabbi Bar Hayim to provide the sources for his statement.

 Dude come on. Man up. Go back and read the posts and see that you made the issue personal and he responded back.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2013, 11:29:09 PM »
Dude come on. Man up. Go back and read the posts and see that you made the issue personal and he responded back.

How did I make it personal? I said that I would like to see sources which confirm the statement made. There is nothing personal about it...

That I do not accept everything that your Rabbi says, is that making it personal? I have no intention of making it personal, I am not arguing with anyone here. It seemed to me that KWRBT is the one quoting and attempting to attack my position. My position is based on several Rabbis interpretation of the verse. All I asked for was a reliable source other than 'I heard Rabbi so-and-so say this'....

This was my 1st response to what KWRBT posted. There are no personal attacks in this post...
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,73131.msg618341.html#msg618341

PS: I realize that what I said 'fear of what the goyim think' is different than what KWRBT was saying, that by saying it was a divine name it somehow makes it OK from the perspective of the non-Jew.... I do not agree with the premise that by saying it was a divine name it lessens the idea that Moses acted on the injustice of the Egyptian beating the Jew, as in either case the Egyptian died...

All I ask for is corroboration of this idea... Not just 'Rabbi x says this'...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2013, 12:14:25 AM »
The statements and the explanations (proofs) behind them were given.
 The question still remains on how would Moshe know the Divine name at this point in time where he didn't even receive Prophecy yet, AND was living as an Egyptian and just at that point even got to any of his brothers and that being where it lead him to seeing the oppression and striking the Egyptian who was beating the Jew to death.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2013, 12:22:29 AM »
I just went back, read this and had a thought in mind.
 From Rav Kahane ZTL HYD
This is a Jewish response – not to let the Gentile smite with impunity, for every single blow desecrates the Children of Israel and is blasphemy against G-d’s Name. Anyone who smites a Jew must be smitten in return. More than this: Moses’ smiting the Egyptian was the Children of Israel’s first response ever to the blows they had received, and foreshadowed all the blows, all the plagues, that G-d would yet inflict upon Egypt.

 Perhaps on a Derashic level what was happening was that the Egyptian was " blasphemy against G-d’s Name", by Moshe smiting him Moshe perhaps in affect was doing the opposite, he was removing the Hillul Hashem and it become a Kiddush Hashem. Soo instead of " blasphemy against G-d’s Name" it was an act that would lead and lead to uttering G-D's name- in Praises. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2013, 12:35:41 AM »
This is why I reject your comment.

I reject your rejection of my comment.

Quote

Whether Moses killed the Egyptian with a rock or with the Divine name of Hashem makes no difference.
   Really?  If only you could go back in time and convince the authors of the midrash that it made no difference, so they would never derive from that verse that he killed the Egyptian with the Divine name.    But alas, you cannot.   And they did make that derivation, which means it did make a difference to them.   Otherwise, they would not have said it.

Quote
The fact that Moshe killed the Egyptian is the lesson, 

Then why do they say he did so with the Divine name?   You have no answer for that.  You are belittling the words of the sages by saying that they "don't make a difference" and by suggesting that they said things for no reason - what a chillul Hashem.

Quote
that a Jew cannot stand idle as his fellow Jew is oppressed. 
That may be the lesson YOU understand from the verse, but it wasn't the lesson Rashi promoted from this verse.   Rashi said that Moshe looked to be sure that no righteous descendants would come from this Egyptian and only when seeing that was the case, then Moshe killed him.     So, I can't help but ask you Muman, based on the standards of conversation that you introduce to this forum, "are you a better talmid chacham than Rashi?"

Quote
I do not think that anything is changed by saying that it was through a divine name.   

If you scream loud enough and cover your eyes, it doesn't alter reality.   Saying that nothing is changed by applying an entirely new meaning to the verse is quite a delusion you are harboring.  Impressive, almost.

Quote
I was just interested if there were actual sources for this belief,   
    BEHIND WHAT BELIEF?   SPECIFY WHAT BELIEF YOU REFER TO, PLEASE!

Quote
but as you continue making personal issue out of it, I am pretty sure there is no real source of this idea. Maybe you can ask Rabbi Bar Hayim to provide the sources for his statement.

Right, I made it personal, says the guy who wrote Oh, that's Rabbi Bar Hayim, "I don't listen to him"     ::)

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2013, 01:43:24 AM »
KWRBT,

Cool down a bit KWRBT... You are not looking at other posts I made which support the divine name explanation.

Is it my question of who it is who originated this idea you quoted him as saying which is bothering you?

My attempt to argue against this Rabbis opinion is that in the end, from the perspective of the gentile, it makes no difference how the Egyptian was killed, he is dead and buried in the sand. Does it prevent Jews from fighting our oppressors, I don't get that impression either.

This is why I wanted to know the source.

And I am sorry if I offended your Rabbi. If I am wrong that you are upset at me because I question who originated the 'concept' or 'belief' that the sages created this teaching to prevent Jews from attacking people who oppress us (after the Bar Kochba rebellion). If so, and you care to, please tell me what you are upset about.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2013, 01:44:45 AM »
I believe the Rashi interpretation, and what the Medresh says about him using the divine name...

I do not believe the explanation you gave attributed to Rav Bar Hayim...

Is that simple or what?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The Egyptian that Moshe Killed - Would Not Father Future Converts
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2013, 05:02:13 AM »
A question was raised concerning Rashi's view. How could Moshe have used special Divine names to kill the Egyptian, if he had only received prophecy at the burning bush later on?
One possible answer is that since Moshe's mother was granted permission by the daughter of Pharaoh to be Moshe's nursemaid; perhaps because of this, he retained some contact with his true family and found out through them about the special Divine names.
A 2nd possible explanation is that there are different levels of prophecy and Divine Inspiration.
Moshe only reached the higher level at the burning bush but had a low level of Divine Inspiration by the time he killed the Egyptian. The low level of Divine Inspiration gave him the knowledge that he needed to kill the Egyptian and see into the future concerning his descendants.