Author Topic: Ben Sorer Umorer  (Read 3244 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4987
Ben Sorer Umorer
« on: September 08, 2014, 06:14:41 AM »
Last weeks' parsha Parshat Ki Taitzai  talked about Ben Sorer UMorer (a wayward & rebellious son).
In Lashon Hatargum (Aramaic) a Ben Sorer UMoerer is Bar Satai UMarai.

Get it Satmar!!!
 :::D

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 06:24:07 PM »
ah nice one
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2014, 06:53:39 PM »
Satmar are not all evil. I have some friends who are friends of Satmar Chassids. Nobody I know supports the NK though... I can co-exist with Satmar so long as they do not support the enemy like NK does.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 07:47:59 PM »
Satmar are not all evil. I have some friends who are friends of Satmar Chassids. Nobody I know supports the NK though... I can co-exist with Satmar so long as they do not support the enemy like NK does.

Muslims are not all evil. Their ideology is though.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 08:12:08 PM »
Muslims are not all evil. Their ideology is though.

Are you comparing muslims to Satmar yid? I hope not. They are Jews, a bit misguided, but Jews none the less.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 08:32:42 PM »
Are you comparing muslims to Satmar yid? I hope not. They are Jews, a bit misguided, but Jews none the less.

I don't like when people do that. If I say they have organization and the nazis had organization in an effort to prove that organization doesn't make you righteous, it isn't comparing them to nazis, it's using nazis in a comparison about organization. Anything can be compared to anything, and I was not saying that they are like muslims in anything of substance, just that their ideology of remaining subservient to goyim is bad, and some might go against it, but it's bad, just like islam is bad, and some go against it, while still calling themselves muslims. If I compare dead skin to trees because they both have carbon, I'm not saying dead skin is a tree, I'm saying they both have carbon. C'mon bro I hate that stuff.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 08:39:20 PM »
I don't like when people do that. If I say they have organization and the nazis had organization in an effort to prove that organization doesn't make you righteous, it isn't comparing them to nazis, it's using nazis in a comparison about organization. Anything can be compared to anything, and I was not saying that they are like muslims in anything of substance, just that their ideology of remaining subservient to goyim is bad, and some might go against it, but it's bad, just like islam is bad, and some go against it, while still calling themselves muslims. If I compare dead skin to trees because they both have carbon, I'm not saying dead skin is a tree, I'm saying they both have carbon. C'mon bro I hate that stuff.

Satmar have Torah U'Mitzvot for which they deserve merit. Our job is to change their misguided opinion concerning the abrogation of the 3 vows.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2014, 08:51:56 PM »
Satmar have Torah U'Mitzvot for which they deserve merit. Our job is to change their misguided opinion concerning the abrogation of the 3 vows.

That's an easy one, it says we'll be killed like deers, and instead we squash them like bugs (when we actually fight) (and we know that's that because the Gemarra has as a reference other false messiahs that led us to Israel, and everyone died), there needs to be two people to make vow, and if one person breaks it, there is no vow, so Hashem doesn't expect us to keep a vow which no longer exists, and we came in peace, and only after there was a state, we were attacked, there was no invasion of Israel by a Jewish army.

When you're a lover of truth, you look at the facts and say the truth. They have ulterior motives because they hate the seculars, with good reason, but as a result they attack Torah and the fulfillment of prophesy.

It would be great if Satmar became pro-Israel. I would love to see them make a "more kosher" Hebrew and design a lovely religious flag. I don't advocate hurting Satmar or doing bad things to them, except crushing them in debate (not that they do that, since they're the special Jews who are really doing the right thing and everyone else is wrong, and of course they can't let their people hear otherwise.) By all means, bring them home. However, their ideology as it currently stands, with everything that stems from their woeful misconstruement of the validity of the three vows is bad.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 08:56:18 PM »
That's an easy one, it says we'll be killed like deers, and instead we squash them like bugs (when we actually fight) (and we know that's that because the Gemarra has as a reference other false messiahs that led us to Israel, and everyone died), there needs to be two people to make vow, and if one person breaks it, there is no vow, so Hashem doesn't expect us to keep a vow which no longer exists, and we came in peace, and only after there was a state, we were attacked, there was no invasion of Israel by a Jewish army.

When you're a lover of truth, you look at the facts and say the truth. They have ulterior motives because they hate the seculars, with good reason, but as a result they attack Torah and the fulfillment of prophesy.

It would be great if Satmar became pro-Israel. I would love to see them make a "more kosher" Hebrew and design a lovely religious flag. I don't advocate hurting Satmar or doing bad things to them, except crushing them in debate (not that they do that, since they're the special Jews who are really doing the right thing and everyone else is wrong, and of course they can't let their people hear otherwise.) By all means, bring them home. However, their ideology as it currently stands, with everything that stems from their woeful misconstruement of the validity of the three vows.

I agree...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 09:24:17 PM »
Satmar have Torah U'Mitzvot for which they deserve merit. Our job is to change their misguided opinion concerning the abrogation of the 3 vows.

But it won't happen.  It's an ideology, and facts are irrelevant to ideologues.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 09:34:28 PM »
But it won't happen.  It's an ideology, and facts are irrelevant to ideologues.

Miracles can happen, but don't count on it.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4987
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 11:39:37 PM »
Satmar are not all evil. I have some friends who are friends of Satmar Chassids. Nobody I know supports the NK though... I can co-exist with Satmar so long as they do not support the enemy like NK does.
Some do Check out Avi Ibrihim Balser on Facebook he is pro-Hamas & a Satmar

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 11:42:08 PM »
Some do Check out Avi Ibrihim Balser on Facebook he is pro-Hamas & a Satmar

If the group does not immediately disavow such people as any normal Jewish group would, they are complicit.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 11:52:29 PM »
Some do Check out Avi Ibrihim Balser on Facebook he is pro-Hamas & a Satmar


I heard some individuals from satmar were in the JDL. Others do volunteer such as guard duty in yeshuvim but NEVER part of or for the IDF
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5390
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 12:23:32 AM »
I remember when Pastor Manning used this mitzvah to justify George Zimmerman killing Trayvon. While Pastor Manning is right about Trayvon, the mitzvah doesn't apply to Non-Jews.

Did Trayvon steal? If so he was Chayav Mitah for breaking the Noahide prohintion of stealing. I was going to write that he stole but I remember he bought the Skittles at 7-Eleven while the black that was killed in Ferguson robbed the 7-Eleven or whatever convenient store it was. I guess Trayvon was a rodef but I don't know exactly where in the Noahide Laws is the prohibition of being a rodef. Maybe the prohibitin of murder includes attempted murder.


Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2014, 12:44:57 AM »
I remember when Pastor Manning used this mitzvah to justify George Zimmerman killing Trayvon. While Pastor Manning is right about Trayvon, the mitzvah doesn't apply to Non-Jews.

Did Trayvon steal? If so he was Chayav Mitah for breaking the Noahide prohintion of stealing. I was going to write that he stole but I remember he bought the Skittles at 7-Eleven while the black that was killed in Ferguson robbed the 7-Eleven or whatever convenient store it was. I guess Trayvon was a rodef but I don't know exactly where in the Noahide Laws is the prohibition of being a rodef. Maybe the prohibitin of murder includes attempted murder.

The mitzvah of Ben Sorer Umorer has never been enforced according to the sages. According to the Talmud and oral tradition the requirements to find one guilty of this sin are very difficult to come about. The son needs to be between 12-13 (or somewhere around there, and I will find an authoritative description soon), needs to be told by both his father and his mother (with ONE voice, and if either is deaf then the punishment cannot be carried out), that he must be a drunkard and a glutton, and other provisions which make it difficult to carry out.

 
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 12:46:12 AM »
http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbizweig/5770/kiseitzei.html

Close Only Counts
In Horse-Shoes

"All of the men of his city shall stone him and he shall die; and you shall remove the evil from your midst; and all of Israel shall hear and they shall fear"(21:21)

The Torah instructs us how to deal appropriately with a "ben sorer u'moreh" - a wayward and rebellious son. If the child fits all of the criteria required to be labeled as a ben sorer u'moreh, he is executed. The Talmud comments that because of the many detailed requirements which are necessary, the occurrence of a ben sorer u'moreh is impossible. The Talmud cites a conflicting opinion, that of Rabbi Yonasan, who states that he sat upon the grave of a ben sorer u'moreh.[1] Some commentaries explain that Rabbi Yonasan's words should not be taken literally, rather that Rabbi Yonasan is stating that he knew a situation where a child met almost all of the requirements needed to be labeled a ben sorer u'moreh. As a proof, they cite the fact that Rabbi Yonasan was a Kohein, and therefore, his words cannot be taken literally, for a Kohein is prohibited to come into contact with a grave.[2] What requires explanation is: If Rabbi Yonasan found a child who met almost all the necessary requirements, how can Chazal be sure that such a case will never happen?

The Talmud teaches that there are four capitol cases in the Torah in which, after the execution of the guilty party, "hachraza" - "a public announcement" is required, stating the person's name and the crime for which he was executed.[3] The stated purpose for these announcements is to instill fear into the populace, thereby preventing a repeat occurrence of the transgression. On three out of the four occasions that the Torah describes the "hachraza" process, the verse concludes "velo yosifu la'asos" or "velo y'zidun od" - "so that this will never happen again". The lone case where this statement is not recorded is that of "ben sorer umoreh".[4] It is from this omission that the Talmud derives the impossibility of an actual case. There is no need to comment that this will never happen again, for it could never have happened the first time.

1.Sanhedrin 71a
2.See Einayim Lamishpat ibid
3.Sanhedrin 81a
4.See Devarim 13:12, 17:13, 21:18, 21:21



See also:
http://ohr.edu/1820
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 12:51:39 AM »
The great Rabbi Yitzak HaKohen Kook wrote the following:

http://ravkooktorah.org/KITEZE63.htm

Ki Teitzei: The Rebellious Son - Preventive Medicine

Only Theoretical

Is there really a death penalty for rebellious children? Even in Talmudic times, it was clear that the severe punishment for the "wayward and rebellious son" (Deut. 21:18-21) is only 'on the books.'

"There never was, nor will there ever be, a child who meets all of the legal qualifications of the 'wayward and rebellious son.' Why then was this law written? That you may study it and receive reward [for the Torah learning, despite its lack of practical application]." (Sanhedrin 71a)

Does this law serve no other purpose other than as a theoretical area of study?

Preventative Medicine

While the field of medicine has made tremendous strides over the centuries, it is widely recognized that its greatest successes have been in the area of preventive medicine. Efforts to ensure clean air and water, sewage treatment, public education on healthy lifestyles and food, and immunization against infectious diseases, have been the most important factors in fighting disease and increasing life expectancy.

We should similarly appreciate the benefit of the Torah and its mitzvot in terms of the most effective assistance: preventing harm and ruin. Thus, God promised, "If you obey God ... keeping all His decrees, I will not strike you with any of the sicknesses that I brought on Egypt. I am God, your Physician" (Ex. 15:26). The healing powers of the Torah should be compared to preventive medicine. It provides a healthy lifestyle that does not leave room for affliction. God did not promise that He will cure us of the sicknesses of Egypt. Rather, by faithfully following the Torah, we will not be visited by those maladies.

What does this have to do with the hypothetical 'rebellious son'? By educating the people about the draconic punishment for the rebellious child, the Torah helps prevent this tragic breakdown in family and society from occurring in the first place. This is what the Talmud means by 'Study it and receive reward' — the very study of the subject is its own reward. As each generation is educated about the dangers of the 'rebellious son' and absorbs the message of the gravity of the offense, this deplorable situation is avoided.

Teaching For Free

We often take for grant the truly important things in life, such as peace, freedom, mental and physical health. They safeguard our happiness and well-being, yet we only properly appreciate them in their absence. Inconsequential matters, on the other hand, are just the opposite. They come to our attention only when they are present and visible. As the Talmud (Sotah 8a) teaches, 'The evil inclination only rules over what the eyes can see.'

This explanation can shed light on why one should not accept payment for teaching Torah. 'Just as I taught for free, so you shall teach for free' (Nedarim 37a). The most vital aspects of life, protecting our health and well-being, cannot be procured with money. Thus, a doctor who heals a sick patient may request remuneration for his services, but one who chases away a lion and averts damage to his neighbor's possessions may not demand a reward. What is the difference? The doctor may be paid for after-the-fact healing, but the greater benefit — preventing potential injury — must be provided free of charge.

This is the lesson of the 'rebellious son,' the Torah's preventive medicine to safeguard familial and social order. "Study it and receive reward."

(Gold from the Land of Israel, pp. 324-326. Adapted from Otzarot HaRe'iyah vol. II, p. 187)
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2014, 01:00:50 AM »
Aish.com has a wonderful discussion about the depth and breadth of this commandment...



Ki Tetzei (Deuteronomy 21:10-25:19)
Fundamentals of Education
by Rabbi Zev Leff

"When a man has a wayward, rebellious son, who does not obey his father and mother, they shall have him flogged. If he still does not listen to them... [the parents] must declare to the elders of his city, 'Our son is wayward and rebellious. He does not listen to us, and is an (exceptional) glutton and drunkard.' "(Deut. 21:18)

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 71a) says that there never was a rebellious son executed by the court. The topic was recorded in the Torah in order to learn and receive reward. But even if there never was a rebellious son, we can learn a great deal about raising children from a careful study of the Torah's description of the rebellious son. By studying the factors that help create a son so tainted that it is a kindness to kill him while he is still young and has not yet committed all the heinous crimes he otherwise would, we can learn to do the opposite with our own children.

It must be clear at the outset that there are no sure-fire rules of education that apply to all children at all times. Reishis Chachmah quotes a Midrash that it is easier to raise a legion of olive trees in the Galilee, where the soil and climate are not conducive to growing olive trees, than to raise one child in the Land of Israel, even though Israel is conducive to proper education, since the atmosphere itself helps to imbue one with wisdom and holiness.

Children are not objects to be fashioned at will, but rather human beings who have their own free will and can reject, if they so choose, even the best education. The most a parent can hope to achieve, as Chiddushei HaRim points out regarding all learning, is to put the words of Torah on the heart of the child so that when the heart opens up, the Torah found on it will sink into the receptive heart.

STRONG ROOTS

The law of the rebellious son is applicable only when the child is age 13 and for the next three months, i.e., at the very inception of his manhood. This points to the importance of a proper foundation in the education of children - that early education forms the basis of the child's experience and hence is the root and foundation of his life.

Avos deRav Nosson expounds on the Mishnah (Avot 4:25), "One who studies Torah as a child, to what can he be likened? To ink, written on fresh paper." Just as ink is readily absorbed into new paper, so the Torah learned when young permeates the very fiber of the child's being.

Alshich explains the injunction (Proverbs 22:6), "Educate the youth according to his path," as a warning to put him on the proper path before he develops the wrong path on his own. The proper beginning is crucial, for it forms the root, and any blemish in the root will manifest itself a thousand-fold in the resultant growth. A strong root, however, insures a healthy plant.

FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS

The Torah describes the rebellious son as not heeding the voice (kol) of his father and mother. Maharal points out that a kol denotes a voice or noise, something not necessarily intelligible. The rebellious son listens to his parents when their words make sense to him, but when their directives are not understood by him, he ignores them.

A child must be taught to rely on his parents' instructions and trust in their desire and ability to guide him on the proper path, even though he may not understand or grasp the wisdom of their directions. Though a parent should try to explain to the child the reasons for his directions and instructions, the child must be taught that in the end whether he understands or not, he must accept his parents' authority.

The Talmud learns from the phrase, "he does not listen to our voices," that to be deemed a rebellious son, both parents must have similar voices. Both parents' guidance must reflect the same values, and they must be consistent in their instruction. If the parents do not speak with one voice, their child cannot be deemed rebellious, because the blame for his rebellious behavior is not his alone.

Further, the parents must point at their son and say, "this son of ours." If the parents are blind and thus incapable of pointing him out, the son cannot be deemed a rebellious son. The requirement that the parents be able to see hints to the necessity of parents viewing each child as an individual, with unique gifts and needs, who must be educated according to his individual personality. If parents are blind to the child's individuality and educate him according to a predetermined formula, the child can also not be fully blamed.

SPIRITUAL STATUS

To be classified as a rebellious son, he must steal money from his parents to eat and drink like a glutton. This conduct shows, says Ibn Ezra, a distorted outlook. The glutton makes the pleasures of this world his only goal rather than seeing this world as the place to prepare for eternal spiritual life. The meat and wine he consumed could have been fully kosher. It is not enough to teach a child that he may eat only kosher food. He must also understand why, so that he does not become a Jew in form but not in substance.

The Talmud explains that the rebellious son is killed now, because if allowed to continue on the same path he will eventually become a robber and murderer. He is killed for his own benefit so that he doesn't lose his portion in the World to Come.

From this we learn the most important lesson of child-rearing. A parent must focus on the soul of his child and his eternal status, even more intensely that his physical well-being. What parent would think of exposing his child to even a slight chance of catching a serious communicable disease? How much more so should a parent protect his child from an environment that might exert negative spiritual influences. If we fret over our child's ability to earn a living, how much more so should we be concerned that he or she grow to be a successful Jew.

We should remember in Elul that there is no greater merit for the Day of Judgment than having raised a child properly. The Zohar teaches that when an individual appears before the Heavenly Court, after 120 years, God inquires if he educated his children properly. If the answer is affirmative, God refuses to accept any more testimony against him, for the merit of guiding his children properly overshadows everything else.

May we learn the deep lessons contained in the Torah's discussion of the rebellious son, so that we merit to raise children fully occupied in Torah and mitzvot.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2014, 01:10:57 AM »
On a personal note....

I was a 'good Jewish boy' at age 13... I remember 1978 and I was still on the good path... I didn't become 'rebellious' till age 18. I once thought that I was guilty of being the Ben Sorer Umorer myself, but when I looked into it I discovered that I was not.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2014, 09:51:02 AM »
Miracles can happen, but don't count on it.

Heh.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2014, 09:53:53 AM »
Some do Check out Avi Ibrihim Balser on Facebook he is pro-Hamas & a Satmar

Ibrihim?  What clown named him?  Or is he from a muslim family?

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4987
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2014, 10:08:38 AM »
Ibrihim?  What clown named him?  Or is he from a muslim family?
From a Satmar family.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 01:54:34 PM »
Ibrihim?  What clown named him?  Or is he from a muslim family?

This clown

 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203127304517085&set=pb.1041028757.-2207520000.1410285181.&type=3&theater


 Work:                                   
 "Servant / Slave at HaShem Yisborach/Allah Subwanahu Wa Ta'ala, the ONE and ONLY ONE God "


 I think its a Muslim. Don't see anything saying he is Satmar, but keep seeing Muslim sh^t like "inshallah". 
 + He is a mental case even by muslim standards. Looks like a child rapist

+ his groups are mostly about islam- here are a few examples " ask me about islam" , "Christian muslim forum" , "learn Islam" and others. He is also in Chabad groups as well "Chabad new playground" (LOL I thought it was 2 groups, the other is "Tanya Tucker" but that isn't Chabad related but some artist apparently  :::D 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 02:12:08 PM by Tag-MehirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4987
Re: Ben Sorer Umorer
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2014, 11:00:57 PM »
This clown

 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203127304517085&set=pb.1041028757.-2207520000.1410285181.&type=3&theater


 Work:                                   
 "Servant / Slave at HaShem Yisborach/Allah Subwanahu Wa Ta'ala, the ONE and ONLY ONE God "


 I think its a Muslim. Don't see anything saying he is Satmar, but keep seeing Muslim sh^t like "inshallah". 
 + He is a mental case even by muslim standards. Looks like a child rapist

+ his groups are mostly about islam- here are a few examples " ask me about islam" , "Christian muslim forum" , "learn Islam" and others. He is also in Chabad groups as well "Chabad new playground" (LOL I thought it was 2 groups, the other is "Tanya Tucker" but that isn't Chabad related but some artist apparently  :::D
He is Satmar but goes to a Chabad shul & most of the people don't talk to him.
One of my sons lives there So I get it from a reliable source.