Author Topic: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....  (Read 4661 times)

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Offline kyel

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Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« on: October 03, 2014, 07:56:15 AM »
I was listening to Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi, and he mentioned that only Jews need to get married to be together and it is not required for gentiles. Where is this from? Also we see that they had concepts of marriage in the times of Noach and Abraham among gentiles.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2014, 09:29:04 AM »
I know Rambam flat out says we don't recognize their marriages anyways. If Christine comes home with Chris, they're married, and if she leaves in the morning and that's it, they're not.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2014, 10:06:48 AM »
  I think it has to do with technically and technicality. A non-Jew doesn't have to be married to be in a relationship with someone else. Meaning they do not need to legal contract the way Jews needs them. Especially not the Ketuba (the legal contract) that was done by Rabbinic institution to get married and also to get divorced. In this sense they don't need to get "married". In another sense they do get married by the act of having sex (which is also one of the ways a women can be married to in Jewish law as well although it is shunned greatly).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 02:43:29 AM »
We do recognize non-Jewish marriage, since Gentiles are punished for having physical relations with someone else's wife (both the man and woman are punished).
The way marriage is created or dissolved however is different for Gentiles than it is for Jews.
(Clarification for the more learned. It's true that on a Torah level one of the 3 ways that the mishna lists to get married is "biah". But that method is banned by rabbinic law.)

Offline edu

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 03:02:57 AM »
Quote from kyel
Quote
I was listening to Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi, and he mentioned that only Jews need to get married to be together and it is not required for gentiles.
I didn't hear what Rabbi Mizrachi stated.
I suspect however, that he was dealing with with a different issue, namely, pre-marital relations (when the woman is not married to someone else), where at least according to Rambam Hilchot Issurei Biah 1:4 Noachide Law takes a more lenient approach on the issue when non-Jews are involved. Rashi might take a stricter approach than the Rambam regarding non-Jews and I don't wish to offer an opinion regarding which view is correct.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 03:57:06 PM »
We do recognize non-Jewish marriage, since Gentiles are punished for having physical relations with someone else's wife (both the man and woman are punished).
The way marriage is created or dissolved however is different for Gentiles than it is for Jews.
(Clarification for the more learned. It's true that on a Torah level one of the 3 ways that the mishna lists to get married is "biah". But that method is banned by rabbinic law.)


Its not necessarily banned. Its just that they cursed someone who does it that way only.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2014, 04:32:31 PM »
Yevamot 52a implies that the rabbis would punish someone for violating a rabbinic law if they used the biah method to create the marriage.
And see Rabbi Epstein's, Aruch Hashulchan, Even Haezer 61:13 where he implies this is the accepted halacha.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2014, 07:35:43 PM »
Yevamot 52a implies that the rabbis would punish someone for violating a rabbinic law if they used the biah method to create the marriage.
And see Rabbi Epstein's, Aruch Hashulchan, Even Haezer 61:13 where he implies this is the accepted halacha.

 Perhaps. And I don't know much on this topic, but I believe that the method is still valid and cannot be banned. Also by your post here at least and my understanding of it is that they would punish the person who would do it this way (and curse as well) but nevertheless it would and is a valid marriage and is a marriage at the end of the day. A divorce (if they wish to separate) would be necessary from my understanding on this subject and all the laws of marriage would apply. Again I don't know this for a fact but I believe this is the Halacha.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2014, 09:24:23 PM »
They can't ban biah, because if you're 2 Jews in a forest that can't write, there's no other option, and Jews need babies, because it's a mitzvah. However, in a civilized society, it should be done with any social nicety that is commonly done.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline edu

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2014, 03:03:45 AM »
Regarding the view of LKZ
Quote
They can't ban biah, because if you're 2 Jews in a forest that can't write, there's no other option, and Jews need babies, because it's a mitzvah.
To get married you also need 2 kosher witnesses.

In any case, another way to get married is for the Jewish man to give the his wife-to-be any object the worth of a prutah for the purpose of creating the marriage in front of 2 kosher witnesses and while he is giving it he says to the woman the appropriate halachic statement creating the marriage (and the woman of course consents to all this). This is relatively easy to do for a couple in a forest when they have 2 kosher witnesses.
I also wish to point out that the Talmud (Gittin 57a) praises a couple who were even halachicly married but because they were taken captive without a Ketuba document nevertheless did not have physical relations.
I need to do further research if this was just a praiseworthy act (above and beyond the requirement of halacha) or an absolute requirement under the set of conditions that this particular couple was faced with.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Where does Hashem tell Jews that they need to get married....
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 04:01:34 AM »
Regarding the view of LKZTo get married you also need 2 kosher witnesses.

In any case, another way to get married is for the Jewish man to give the his wife-to-be any object the worth of a prutah for the purpose of creating the marriage in front of 2 kosher witnesses and while he is giving it he says to the woman the appropriate halachic statement creating the marriage (and the woman of course consents to all this). This is relatively easy to do for a couple in a forest when they have 2 kosher witnesses.
I also wish to point out that the Talmud (Gittin 57a) praises a couple who were even halachicly married but because they were taken captive without a Ketuba document nevertheless did not have physical relations.
I need to do further research if this was just a praiseworthy act (above and beyond the requirement of halacha) or an absolute requirement under the set of conditions that this particular couple was faced with.

I'm talking they're stuck on an island or something.

Also, it's like a spiritual thing, after you get married, you didn't sprout a tail, you're physically the exact same, this is like a mitzvah, and just like you wouldn't understand how sitting in a hut causes a spiritual change, it's the same thing with marriage. I guess non-Jews don't need to make a "bracha" over the action of getting married, but we make brachot for everything, and this is an elaborate one.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.