Polygamy.

[Daniel]

With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.

Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.

A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.

I understand that. But that's their culture and they don't follow these laws. We can condemn for this if we want, but that would be engaging in ethnocentrism, at least according to my  professor from the liberal state college I attended.

Her's the deal..all of humanity has had the chance at one point or another to follow th 7 laws of Noah, they are the universal law of mankind. I cannot care less about their culture if they do not follow these laws, they are just as responsible for their deeds as any other nation, and thy are not excused because "they have a different culture" yeah, a G-dless one that rejects the basics of moral decency. Since when do we have to acknowledge, and not condemn those who are damaging the world with their sins? How is ti "ethnocentric" for us to want to repair the world's sins? It's ridiculous, and it stems from the idea that people should be able to do whatever they want and not be reprimanded for doing it, and that is totally anti-torah.

It's not quite as simple as "people should be able to do whatever they want." Their traditions aren't stemmed from this type of belief. This is the tradition their culture practices. These polyandric marriages are pre-arranged, and the people getting married have no say over it. In one of the videos, a 13 year old girl was about to marry all of the men from another family, and she looked absolutely terrified. She certainly didn't look like she wanted to do this.

Ethnocentric is defined as a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own. So if we are mentioning the torah in this context, then we are viewing this culture from our own perspective. From their perspective, they never even heard of a torah any more than they have ever seen a lightbulb. I'm not advocating for this. I'm just explaining what it is.

[Daniel]

According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.

One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.

My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.

..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.

Okay, I stand corrected. It's just something I heard about. If I remember correctly, I think there was an episode of the Sopranos where something like this was displayed.

[chakma613]

With every country's population evenly split 50:50 male:female, polygamy can't possibly be sustainable long term.

Some African cultures have a practice called polyandry where the woman marries every brother from another family.

A woman having multiple husbands?? That goes against the 7 laws of noah..see hilchos arayos(laws of forbidden relationships), one of them is the prohibition of znus with an aishes ish(intercourse with a married woman), and the punishment for doing that is death.

I understand that. But that's their culture and they don't follow these laws. We can condemn for this if we want, but that would be engaging in ethnocentrism, at least according to my  professor from the liberal state college I attended.

Her's the deal..all of humanity has had the chance at one point or another to follow th 7 laws of Noah, they are the universal law of mankind. I cannot care less about their culture if they do not follow these laws, they are just as responsible for their deeds as any other nation, and thy are not excused because "they have a different culture" yeah, a G-dless one that rejects the basics of moral decency. Since when do we have to acknowledge, and not condemn those who are damaging the world with their sins? How is ti "ethnocentric" for us to want to repair the world's sins? It's ridiculous, and it stems from the idea that people should be able to do whatever they want and not be reprimanded for doing it, and that is totally anti-torah.

It's not quite as simple as "people should be able to do whatever they want." Their traditions aren't stemmed from this type of belief. This is the tradition their culture practices. These polyandric marriages are pre-arranged, and the people getting married have no say over it. In one of the videos, a 13 year old girl was about to marry all of the men from another family, and she looked absolutely terrified. She certainly didn't look like she wanted to do this.

Ethnocentric is defined as a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own. So if we are mentioning the torah in this context, then we are viewing this culture from our own perspective. From their perspective, they never even heard of a torah any more than they have ever seen a lightbulb. I'm not advocating for this. I'm just explaining what it is.

As I said, the laws of noah are obligatory for all non-jews to follow, it doesnt matter if they like doing what they're doing, they'e still doing it regardless, and are held responsible for their inquities by G-d, to what degree, i do not know, given their ignorance

[chakma613]

According to wikipedia, Rabbinic Ashkenazi Judaism has outlawed polygamy since the 11th century.

One question I would ask for Chaim is if he agrees with a woman's having the right to ask for a divorce.

My sense would be that Chaim would agree that the woman has very right to ask for a divorce. But that woman can only remarry once she is given a "get" from her husband. Otherwise, she is not allowed to remarry until she receives the get. I heard that in some orthodox communities, they actually beat the husband up in order to coerce a get from him. I'd be curious to know if Chaim would agree with this tactic.

..the product of misinformation. The only time the Bait din(court) beats up the husband is if he was abusive to his wife and refuses to divorce her..they will also excummunicate him(cherem) if the need be.

Okay, I stand corrected. It's just something I heard about. If I remember correctly, I think there was an episode of the Sopranos where something like this was displayed.

The media distorts Judaism and Jewish people to better suit the idea of an american jew automarticaly being an assimilated reformer, NEVER trust what the media says about the orthodox community, if yuo want to learn about orthodox jews, talk to them..

[judeanoncapta]

I am also totally against polygammy. Do we really want to be like muslims popping out 60 kids per man with 20 different women. I do want jews to reproduce but we can't risk something like polygammy.

Can't risk it?

It's already happening. I know three people who have two wives each.

The Baba Sali had four wives, one on each floor of his house.

True, any woman who would agree to be a second wife is probably pretty submissive. That is true.

[chakma613]

I am also totally against polygammy. Do we really want to be like muslims popping out 60 kids per man with 20 different women. I do want jews to reproduce but we can't risk something like polygammy.

Can't risk it?

It's already happening. I know three people who have two wives each.

The Baba Sali had four wives, one on each floor of his house.

True, any woman who would agree to be a second wife is probably pretty submissive. That is true.

We don;'t pasken like a kabalist buddy, mekubalim do werid things..or at least they're weird to us

[judeanoncapta]

Don't pasken like him.

Pasken like the Rambam who says in no uncertain terms that polygamy is permissable.

[kellymaureen]

Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that.  Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?  

[newman]

Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that.  Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?  

But think of the 'sister wives' to help do your hair, paint your toe nails and swap clothes with. 

[kellymaureen]

Lol no thanks.

I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands .....guess I had better find one to start with

[Joe Schmo]

Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that.  Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?  

But think of the 'sister wives' to help do your hair, paint your toe nails and swap clothes with. 

They actually enjoy that.  Imagine, all six of your wives, getting togeter and conspiring how they can best gang up on you.

[Joe Schmo]

Lol no thanks.

I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands .....guess I had better find one to start with

That's interesting. 

No man would ever 'share a woman', but women are perfectly capable (in some cases) of sharing a man.

[newman]

Lisa Im with you, no way would I put up with that.  Its degrading, how would any guy like to share his wife with 3 other men?  

But think of the 'sister wives' to help do your hair, paint your toe nails and swap clothes with. 

They actually enjoy that.  Imagine, all six of your wives, getting togeter and conspiring how they can best gang up on you.

Yeah, that's a thought.

Come home from work and find four with their heads full of stupid expectations from the Oprah show and all nagging you for not being romantic enough!

[kellymaureen]

Yeah I was kidding I dont share.

[Joe Schmo]

Yeah I was kidding I dont share.

I know.

[Daniel]

Lol no thanks.

I'll get on board if I can have a few husbands .....guess I had better find one to start with

I'm free, in case you'd like to add me to the bunch

[newman]

Yeah I was kidding I dont share.

What is it with you girls? You share clothes, makeup and DVDs but you're completely unreasonable when it comes to men..........Sheesh!

[jdl4ever]

Chakma613, I am very troubled by your posts.

1.  You belittle our great leader R' Meir Kahane Zs'l, and won't even consider the possibility that he was a throwback from a previous generation like R' Mordechai Eliyahu stated he was.  Then you attempt back up your claim w/o answering my proof from the Talmud saying 2 Tanahs were worthy of Ruach Hakodesh, making them a throwback of 500 years.  Then you say that the Rav can't be as great as the Vilna Goan since he didn't know the Talmud by heart.  Well, the Vilna Goan was one step above the Rav in that respect but he did not free 1 million Russian Jews like the Rav did, or nearly throw the Arabs out of Israel starting the redemption. 

2.  You are making wrong statements about Judaism in your arrogance, and insulting our dear moderator Lisa by telling her lies.  ANYONE CAN PROVIDE PROOF FROM THE TORAH, the oral law did not end with the Talmud and anyone may provide biblical proof to support their argument, and come up with new points not discovered previously and prove them even if it is not stated in the Talmud.   Lisa provided a valid Torah argument that hinted that polygamy is permitted but having one wife is better.  This nonsense you made up that if it is not stated in the Talmud, it's not true is complete bull excrement.  Also nonsense that only Rabbis can say anything of value.  Complete bull.

3.  Your statement that the minority opinion of Rabbis don't count and only the majority opinion counts  is foolishness. When the majority of Rabbis decided to turn their backs on their Russian Jewish brothers and R' Meir Kahane was the only one who was willing to do what needed to be done to free them, and they all called him a nutjob, you would be siding with these Rabbis wouldn't you.  What if they all decide to support Shas and to give up Jerusalem to the Muslim Nazis?  You would just blindly follow the majority opinion, which is a terrible thing to do and if you do this you are not living your life by Torah, but are just a blind sheep who understands nothing on their own. 

[Daniel]

Yeah I was kidding I dont share.

What is it with you girls? You share clothes, makeup and DVDs but you're completely unreasonable when it comes to men..........Sheesh!

LMAO!!! I actually laughed out loud for this one! Good one, Newman! Very good!

[kellymaureen]

I dont share any of those things, women dont like me

[Daniel]

I dont share any of those things, women dont like me

Oh come now! How can that possibly be! They just don't know what they're missing out on! 

[newman]

I dont share any of those things, women dont like me

Women can't stand you 'coz you're like the girl in the Beach Boys song 'Fun Fun Fun'.

[kellymaureen]

I dont think they like my attitude, its too extreme for most of them:P

[kahaneloyalist]

I remember a poster from the Kahane forum who hasnt been on in a long time Chana4Kahane said she wouldnt have a problem with her husband marrying a second wife.

JDL, please this matter can between you and Chakma613 can be private.

Chakma613, the rule of following the majority is true when there is a fully functioning Sanhedrin, until that time that particular rule is not in force. We must all find a Rebbe and stick to his Derech, that is how we follow the words of the Chachamim in this day.

[chakma613]

Chakma613, I am very troubled by your posts.

1.  You belittle our great leader R' Meir Kahane Zs'l, and won't even consider the possibility that he was a throwback from a previous generation like R' Mordechai Eliyahu stated he was.  Then you attempt back up your claim w/o answering my proof from the Talmud saying 2 Tanahs were worthy of Ruach Hakodesh, making them a throwback of 500 years.  Then you say that the Rav can't be as great as the Vilna Goan since he didn't know the Talmud by heart.  Well, the Vilna Goan was one step above the Rav in that respect but he did not free 1 million Russian Jews like the Rav did, or nearly throw the Arabs out of Israel starting the redemption. 

2.  You are making wrong statements about Judaism in your arrogance, and insulting our dear moderator Lisa by telling her lies.  ANYONE CAN PROVIDE PROOF FROM THE TORAH, the oral law did not end with the Talmud and anyone may provide biblical proof to support their argument, and come up with new points not discovered previously and prove them even if it is not stated in the Talmud.   Lisa provided a valid Torah argument that hinted that polygamy is permitted but having one wife is better.  This nonsense you made up that if it is not stated in the Talmud, it's not true is complete bull excrement.  Also nonsense that only Rabbis can say anything of value.  Complete bull.

3.  Your statement that the minority opinion of Rabbis don't count and only the majority opinion counts  is foolishness. When the majority of Rabbis decided to turn their backs on their Russian Jewish brothers and R' Meir Kahane was the only one who was willing to do what needed to be done to free them, and they all called him a nutjob, you would be siding with these Rabbis wouldn't you.  What if they all decide to support Shas and to give up Jerusalem to the Muslim Nazis?  You would just blindly follow the majority opinion, which is a terrible thing to do and if you do this you are not living your life by Torah, but are just a blind sheep who understands nothing on their own. 

1. Just because I don't put the Rav on a spiritual level that makes him as great as the Vilna Gaon does not mean I am belittling him. I do not consider many people as great as the Gedolim. I agree that the Rav was a tzaddik who did a lot of good for the Jewish people, but to compare his torah stature to that of a leading authority, or to say what you are saying about him, is making him more than the political leader he was, it's overriding the authority of the leaders of the generation.

2. How am I being arrogant by telling Lia that she cannot adduce proof from a pasuk, when, to my knowledge, no such interpretation exists? Kahane never put his own spin on the pasukim, nor ddi he make chidushim, he quoted the words of those before him just as he should have, albeit it was in support of his own ideas, but that is acceptable. True, the oral law did not end with the Talmud, but the main idea is that if no one has said it before, and if there's no tradition from one's rebbe, it isn't Torah. "assur chadash min hatorah" - chasam sofer. Lisa's argument seemed to be alid, but it lacked the main part of any torah argument - received tradition, it was a chidush, and as we have seen, chidushim are not valid. What if someone were to say that "an eye for an eye" is to be taken literally, when Rashi says it ought not be? Should we believe them? after all, it SOUNDS logical, but that's just it..just as Rashi's inrterpretation was NOT based on logic, rather, based on  the tradition from his rebbe, we can deduce that we ought not use our own understanding, especially when it comes to paskim which are so complex..Also, Lisa based her argument on an english understanding of the pasuk, how much worth is that? If we were to go by the english understanding of a pasuk, we wouldn't understand much at all. I respect Lisa greatly, but she made a mistake, we all make mistakes, and pointing them out so that others do not stumble is an obligation.

3. This is the most bizarre thing you've said yet. "mitzva lishmoa le'direoi chachamim" if your rebbe tells you that left is right, and right is left, you must believe him..we do not trust our own understanding, we go by what our rebbeim and what our torah scholars say, so, if the entire assembly of Gedolim were to say something, I would be compelled to follow it. The gedolim did not call R' Kahane a nutjob - many respected him greatly, and if you are going to question the authority, and by extension, the judgment of the gedolim, then you are in violation of 'mitzva lishmoa le'divrei chachamim". we have an accepted tradition that states that the majority rules in legal matters, you know that as well as I do. Face it - you're being arrogant if you say that you are greater than the gedolim, in whose merit the state of israel endures, and being quite individualistic too.

3.