Rabbi Ovadia Yossef's Latest Gaffe

[chakma613]

I honestly do not know why people here insist on attacking chachamim. What he said has a basis in torah, so before you argue with him based on common sense and morality alien to judaism, pease learn his rationale. I tend to agree that the Jews who die in the army die for a reason - many are not observant in the last, why do you think a Kohein(priest) used to warn the Jews in the times of the torah, that if any of the soldiers had sinned, they should not fight? Because he was afraid that they would die due to the sakanah(danger) of being in combat - it seems obvious to me that you have never learned the Talmud's statement that when a person is in danger, he is judged more severely, and his deeds are weghed, his mrit is calculated, and it is determined by G-d whether or not he wil survive the danger...please, don't pollute the board with your apikorsishe statements and outright kefirah.

Look dude, she did not insult him. I must confess to not knowing exactly what you said, but I happen to know that in the Jewish and Christian Bibles it is FORBIDDEN to deify a leader in any way.

I am not sure what you have interpreted to allow that but have repeatedly asked people to post why we are forbidden from criticizing any religious leader and nobody has ever provided verses or passages.

She called his ruling a "gaffe" that's pretty insulting.

I am not deifying r' ovadiah bu I am not about to say he is wrong in making a statement tht I agree with.

[chakma613]

Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?

I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.

Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:


1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".


2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of  Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.

It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.

If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.

Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.

I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.

If  you were brought up with the notion that religious people are the source of all problems in the world-do you think that just by living among religious people is a real "opportunity" to come close.

Yes they are surrounded with holy sites and shuls etc. but in their minds they are taught to look with disgust at all of those things.
The Israeli educational system has effectively kidnapped and brainwashed them to think this way.

There are people there ready to teach, but if you were brought up that way would you consider listening to them?

Especially when the religious people put them down on such a regular basis as Rav Yosef just did. Do you think that type of talk will bring those people closer to observance?

I"m not saying everyone is on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu here as my argument (though that is true in a way-Moshe was sincerely humbled in front of all people-especially the generation at the end of the Galut). I'm just saying that at its source-all suffering is a decree from G-d that is above the level of reason.

If G-d has to use suffering as a way to accomplish His goal then you've just made Him into a very limited being.

G-d has his reasons for making people suffer, and it takes someone like Rav Ovadiah to decide that, certainly not people like is. I stand by what I said wehn I said that the israelis are not Tinukh shenishba, they have the resources, they have the surroundings, it's their fault of theuy chos not to avail themselves of it because of the education system or the media. What you are saying is exactly how people justify arsab terrorism, they say that it's the fault of the education system, or the media, and they are hence not eb held responsible fo their actions, you're basically saying the same thing.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Gaffe means mistake or blunder. Do you really hold he has never, ever sinned, made an error in judgment, or had a moment of weakness?

[Lubab]

Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?

I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.

Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:


1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".


2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of  Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.

It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.

If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.

Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.

I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.

If  you were brought up with the notion that religious people are the source of all problems in the world-do you think that just by living among religious people is a real "opportunity" to come close.

Yes they are surrounded with holy sites and shuls etc. but in their minds they are taught to look with disgust at all of those things.
The Israeli educational system has effectively kidnapped and brainwashed them to think this way.

There are people there ready to teach, but if you were brought up that way would you consider listening to them?

Especially when the religious people put them down on such a regular basis as Rav Yosef just did. Do you think that type of talk will bring those people closer to observance?

I"m not saying everyone is on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu here as my argument (though that is true in a way-Moshe was sincerely humbled in front of all people-especially the generation at the end of the Galut). I'm just saying that at its source-all suffering is a decree from G-d that is above the level of reason.

If G-d has to use suffering as a way to accomplish His goal then you've just made Him into a very limited being.

G-d has his reasons for making people suffer, and it takes someone like Rav Ovadiah to decide that, certainly not people like is. I stand by what I said wehn I said that the israelis are not Tinukh shenishba, they have the resources, they have the surroundings, it's their fault of theuy chos not to avail themselves of it because of the education system or the media. What you are saying is exactly how people justify arsab terrorism, they say that it's the fault of the education system, or the media, and they are hence not eb held responsible fo their actions, you're basically saying the same thing.

No. Not the same thing at all. The Arab media and education system is a perfect reflection of the Islamic religion and the values they all share.
On the opposite spectrum is the Establishment in Israel who for the first time in Jewish history tried to establish an education system for Jews that was totally divorced and anti-thetical to Judaism.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

General comment:

Do you find many Christians who say Pat Robertson, Greg Laurie, the Apostle Paul, or any other significant leader or thinker in Christendom to be incontrovertible or for it to be sin to criticize them?

Paul is the father of most of the New Testament of the Bible, for crying out loud, and yet no Christian has said that even he was blameless or perfect!

For that matter, have you ever heard Chaim say that Ha Rav Meir Kahane (zt"l) was infallible? No!

[Lubab]

Look througout the Chumash and Tanach. The prophets never say "so and so died because of his sins". They will always say "dont' sin so this won't happen to you". Which is a very different thing. We can avoid a lot of these issues by doing good things, but at the end G-d could decide that something bad is meant to happen to us anyway.

So no, it is not Rav Yosef's place or even any Navi's place to give a reason why someone was killed, because there is no reason in that sense of the word. It is a Gezeira-a decree which is above reason.

[chakma613]

Gaffe means mistake or blunder. Do you really hold he has never, ever sinned, made an error in judgment, or had a moment of weakness?

Of course, but to call his ruling a mistake before it has been analyzed by the general consensus of frumkite, it is insulting.

[Mifletzet]

The two pillars of today's Judaism, R.Yosef Karo and R.Yitzhak Luria, wrote entire treatises on gilgulim.
At his hesped for R.Kahane, former Sefardi Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu said that "R.Kahane was a gilgul of a warrior from the Tenach who knew no fear".

According to Chaim, R.Yosef was already "completely demented, senile and insane" back in 2001, but if the Jewish soldiers aren't up to scratch, then it does say that Hashem's special Providence will not be with them: "You abandon and disgrace us, and do not go forth with our armies" (Tehillim 44).

[chakma613]

Look througout the Chumash and Tanach. The prophets never say "so and so died because of his sins". They will always say "dont' sin so this won't happen to you". Which is a very different thing. We can avoid a lot of these issues by doing good things, but at the end G-d could decide that something bad is meant to happen to us anyway.

So no, it is not Rav Yosef's place or even any Navi's place to give a reason why someone was killed, because there is no reason in that sense of the word. It is a Gezeira-a decree which is above reason.

Ok, so R'Ovadiah does not know Tanakh, according to what you are saying.

However, a rabbi is far more chashuv than a navi - even katanim and deranged people can and in fact were nevi'im. If what you say is true, that it is not the Rav's place to say what he said, then he would be met with a backlash from rav eliyashiv, or another gadol, which he has not. Rabbi avigdor miller zt'l once gave a reason for the Shoah - he said that it was G-d's way of bringing down Hell on earth, to show humanity that hell in fact exists, but I suppose you'll dismiss him as well..care to disparage any other gedolim while you're at it?

[Shlomo]

Chaim has said this so many times... I mean SO MANY times. Just listen to the Ask JTF programs.

It is extremely dangerous to criticize a Jew who is a high Rabbi and Torah scholar... I mean... SUPER dangerous. Sure... we can say we disagree with him but we have to be so careful.  Ok, he has his problems... but come on... you have to at least respect our religious belief in Judaism towards this matter. And not just because it hurts the movement with comments like this.

[jdl4ever]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives.  But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them. 

To clear anything up, the Rabbi never cursed out a Rabbi by name, he just quoted the wrong opinion and proved why it was wrong.  He was very respectful to all Orthodox Rabbis and was careful to call out their wrong decisions and beliefs but didn't call them by name. 

[chakma613]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives.  But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them. 

Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.

[jdl4ever]

You're not answering my question.  Theoretically if a Rabbi says "we should give up Jerusalem for peace with arab muslim nazis" and every observant Jew punched him in the face in public, would we not be better off then we are now, and actually have REAL Rabbis for a change.  Yes or no?

[Lubab]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives.  But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them. 

Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.

FYI: I believe your siggy should be "Al Taamod Al Dam.." not "Lo Taamod Al Dam...

[jdl4ever]

Lubab has a streak of agreeing with me recently, the Massiah must have come.   

[chakma613]

You're not answering my question.  Theoretically if a Rabbi says "we should give up Jerusalem for peace with arab muslim nazis" and every observant Jew punched him in the face in public, would we not be better off then we are now, and actually have REAL Rabbis for a change.  Yes or no?

Ok, so you are now condoning the public abuse of an elderly rabbi? Where do you get this garbage from? Beating up a rabbi? are you mad? Of course my answer is NO. Just because r' ovadiah made a mistake about land for peace, you instantly think that he should be killed?? You really are going off the deep end, and you sound like a muslim who instantly resorts to violence. Now, if you say that the rabbonim shoukld have spoken up to r' ovadiah - fine, but that's not what you're saying. Just how do you define a real rabbi? On who follows your narrow ideology that arab = chayav mitah? or in this case, anyone who doesn't think like you is chayav mitah. sounds like islam to me..

[jdl4ever]

You're putting words into my mouth.  As a follower of R' Kahane I would do whatever R' Kahane did, nothing more and nothing less.  He would have mocked the foolish words of Rabbis who say things against the Torah but would not menchan their names or mock them personally; so I would do the same thing.

I'm simply throwing out a scenerio here, and I wanted your response. 

[Shlomo]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah

I do believe we should call out ANY opinion that violates the Torah.

I do not think this means to criticize Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, whom I disagree with on several major issues. To disagree and to insult are completely different.

We need to think about the bigger picture and about JTF and if this hurts our movement or not.

[chakma613]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives.  But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them. 

Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.

FYI: I believe your siggy should be "Al Taamod Al Dam.." not "Lo Taamod Al Dam...

No wonder you've been so outlanidsh lately, you're forgetting your vayikra..look at pasuk tes-zayan in kedoshim, perek yud-tes

[chakma613]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah

I do believe we should call out ANY opinion that violates the Torah.

I do not think this means to criticize Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, whom I disagree with on several major issues. To disagree and to insult are completely different.

We need to think about the bigger picture and about JTF and if this hurts our movement or not.

I agree

[Lubab]

Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives.  But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them. 

Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.

FYI: I believe your siggy should be "Al Taamod Al Dam.." not "Lo Taamod Al Dam...

No wonder you've been so outlanidsh lately, you're forgetting your vayikra..look at pasuk tes-zayan in kedoshim, perek yud-tes

Yes. You are correct. I stand corrected on THAT issue.

[chakma613]

I did not criticize him, I just pointed out that he was linguistically in error, and that this may be indicative of his recent behavior. I usually have a lot of respect for lubab.

What I said was far different from calling R' ovadiah a fake rabbi chas vesalom.

[Shlomo]

Let's stay on the debate and refrain from insulting the other members. The calmer and more factual we are, the better results our words will carry.

[jdl4ever]

I never called him a fake Rabbi, you're making that up.  I simply stated "Fake Rabbis".  I never said he was a fake Rabbi.

[judeanoncapta]

Paul is the father of most of the New Testament of the Bible, for crying out loud, and yet no Christian has said that even he was blameless or perfect!

What a ridiculous statement to make!!!!!!!

You beleive that his letters and words are the Word of G-d, on par with the prophecies of Moses, Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah.

He wrote letters to followers and you consider  it the word of G-d and then you claim that he wasn't infallible!!!!!!!!!!!

How could you beleive his letters were the Word of G-d, without holding him infallible?

Is there any statement that he made that you think was incorrect?

Of course, the answer is no.

So, let's be honest here.