Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
what does the Torah say about satan
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 15, 2007, 10:16:01 PM ---
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on November 15, 2007, 09:52:08 PM ---
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 15, 2007, 09:23:16 PM ---I disagree, Adam and Eve sinned and we are paying for their sin since we are their decendants, but it is not our sin though since we didn't commit it.
--- End quote ---
G-d isnt punishing us for their sin. Except for 4 people, everyone else has sinned in one way or another. G-d doesnt just punish the children for their parents sins, expecially something that happened thousands of years ago. So in actuality we are still suffering becuase of our own ways.
This is also connected to the statement that in those in whose generation the Temple isnt rebuilt they are as guilty as destroying the Temple.
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JDL4EVER will resolve the apparent contradiction. The rule that G-d punishes for only 4-5 generations is for most sins but does not apply for murder and for "super major sins (my term)". How do I know it doesn't apply to murder? Since G-d punished Kain's decendants for him murdering Ebel 7 generations later. How do I know it doesn't apply for super major sins? Because G-d is still punishing us for the sin of the Golden Calf plus also for the sins that led to the destruction of the first temple as indicated numerous times in the writings of the Prophets. You won't find this in any commentary, it's my own derivation.
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Either way if the children would make proper Tishuva of their own crimes they certainly would not have been punished for their parents sins. G-d is justice and He wouldnt punish an individual for absolutly nothing that they have not done. (unless a few very high Tzaddikim for who make Tikkunim and other things for the people).
We cant blame our forfathers and mothers for our problems- the truth is that we ourselves are more than guilty for what came and is coming for us. We need to change ourselves and our generation and not hold the focus of blame on someting that allready happened generations ago.
jdl4ever:
What you write is "wishful thinking" and has no basis in the Torah. Even if the children repent, they are still punished for these sins. That is part of the Torah and some parts of the Torah you do not understand yet.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 15, 2007, 10:27:59 PM ---What you write is "wishful thinking" and has no basis in the Torah. Even if the children repent, they are still punished for these sins. That is part of the Torah and some parts of the Torah you do not understand yet.
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The Torah says that G-d doesnt punish children for their parents sins. (more than 3 or 4 generations), and gives blessings for thousands of generations. - The commentaries say that 3 or 4 generations if the children follow in their parents footsteps and ways and do not make Tishuva.
You might ask- then why is a person born to a rich family, while another is poor, or why os one a Mamzer (bastard) and is in a way discriminated agains't (can marry only another Mamzer, etc.) - That has to do a lot with Gilgulim and the Tikkunim and punishment (for cleaning) that that soul has to go threw.
jdl4ever:
Gilgulim and the Tikkunim may not exist as they were recently invented by the Kabbalists with no Torah source so it is not a good answer, the real answer is what I wrote. Also, I am aware what some of the commentators write, but I would modify or read differently what they write to say if the children do repent their is a good possibility of the sins being forgiven but it is not definite in my opinion. The proof is from Kain killing Hevel. Plus from every other case where the righteous suffer for no apparent reason. G-d specifically tells Kain that punishment for his sin will occur in 7 generations with no conditions, G-d did not say "if your decendants repent then I won't punish them". In fact, it was a definite punishment destined to occur if the 7th generation repented or did not repent. And if you tell me that G-d knew that the guy would not repent, then the Torah would still not use such definite language and make us derive wrong information, as every phrase is precious. It would have at least stated that the one who was killed was also a murderer, which is not true. Similarly, we are still being punished for the sin of the Golden Calf (remember the Koehen Gadol can't wear gold on Yom Kippur, why? didn't he repent according to you?) and for the sins that led to the destruction of the Temple, and for the sins of other Jews in our generation, but if most of us repent completely then G-d may have mercy on us and forget about these sins and restore us to our glory.
Uziyahu:
q_q_, I seriously doubt you have taken the time to know what I believe.
Next time, bring some support.
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