Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
what does the Torah say about satan
decimos:
hasatan is the adversary,created to test us a bit like the guy in charlie ans the chocolate factory..the one wyho askes charlie to steal everlasting gobstopper he promises all the wealth and ritchies if he does this thing...ofc he works for mr wonka in the end,its a test remember the book of job hasatan works very strictly to G-ds wishes.implying subservience.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 15, 2007, 10:52:36 PM ---Gilgulim and the Tikkunim may not exist as they were recently invented by the Kabbalists with no Torah source so it is not a good answer, the real answer is what I wrote. Also, I am aware what some of the commentators write, but I would modify or read differently what they write to say if the children do repent their is a good possibility of the sins being forgiven but it is not definite in my opinion. The proof is from Kain killing Hevel. Plus from every other case where the righteous suffer for no apparent reason. G-d specifically tells Kain that punishment for his sin will occur in 7 generations with no conditions, G-d did not say "if your decendants repent then I won't punish them". In fact, it was a definite punishment destined to occur if the 7th generation repented or did not repent. And if you tell me that G-d knew that the guy would not repent, then the Torah would still not use such definite language and make us derive wrong information, as every phrase is precious. It would have at least stated that the one who was killed was also a murderer, which is not true. Similarly, we are still being punished for the sin of the Golden Calf (remember the Koehen Gadol can't wear gold on Yom Kippur, why? didn't he repent according to you?) and for the sins that led to the destruction of the Temple, and for the sins of other Jews in our generation, but if most of us repent completely then G-d may have mercy on us and forget about these sins and restore us to our glory.
--- End quote ---
Okay I should take your word and your own made up commentary over the statements and writings of Giants like the ARIZAL, Rav Chaim Vital, Rabbi Moshe Cordovero, the Vilna Gaon, etc. etc. etc.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 15, 2007, 10:52:36 PM ---Gilgulim and the Tikkunim may not exist as they were recently invented by the Kabbalists with no Torah source so it is not a good answer, the real answer is what I wrote. Also, I am aware what some of the commentators write, but I would modify or read differently what they write to say if the children do repent their is a good possibility of the sins being forgiven but it is not definite in my opinion. The proof is from Kain killing Hevel. Plus from every other case where the righteous suffer for no apparent reason. G-d specifically tells Kain that punishment for his sin will occur in 7 generations with no conditions, G-d did not say "if your decendants repent then I won't punish them". In fact, it was a definite punishment destined to occur if the 7th generation repented or did not repent. And if you tell me that G-d knew that the guy would not repent, then the Torah would still not use such definite language and make us derive wrong information, as every phrase is precious. It would have at least stated that the one who was killed was also a murderer, which is not true. Similarly, we are still being punished for the sin of the Golden Calf (remember the Koehen Gadol can't wear gold on Yom Kippur, why? didn't he repent according to you?) and for the sins that led to the destruction of the Temple, and for the sins of other Jews in our generation, but if most of us repent completely then G-d may have mercy on us and forget about these sins and restore us to our glory.
--- End quote ---
How do you know that Cain being murdered or his descendents not being mentioned, and eventually being wiped out in the flood. All happing after 7 generations.
How do you know that is Cain`s punishment.
The text does not say that G-d told Cain he or anybody will be punished after 7 generations. If we assume it means generations . It says G-d will punish anybody that kills Cain before 7 generations.
note- one would expect to be punished for murder anyway. But Cain`s mark was a deterrent..
Fine. Nobody kills Cain before 7 generations.
By tradition, lemech killed Cain (hinted at in the text too), He killed him after 7 generations.
Lemech then pleads forgiveness from his wives.
It seems that Lemech is punished in some way.
That no more children of lemech are mentioned, maybe he had no more children, and the Cain family tree is not mentioned. And they will be finished in the flood.
That may not be cain`s punishment.
That may just be their punishment.
Noah was a righteous man , certainly relative to the people of his time. The people at his time were corrupt. Maybe the whole or most of the Cain branch was corrupt. And they were punished for their sins.
Not for Cain`s.
And also. Perhaps Cain being murdered was a natural punishment that was just put off for 7 generations. But I wouldn`t say that Cain`s sin and Cain`s mark was like a protection for his descendents. It is an interesting theory though.
Furthermore.. if somebody is murdered, does that mean it is a punishment? Rabbi Akiva was murdered, and Rabbi Meir Kahane were murdered. Al kiddush hashem. Cain was bad, maybe it was his punishment, or maybe it was just that G-d gives man free will and evil can rule just as good can rule.
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: DanBenNoah on November 18, 2007, 11:51:29 AM ---It's interesting that in Sefer HaYasher (The Book of Jasher), Lamech (a descendant of Cain) accidentally kills Cain in the field with a bow and arrow because his sight was bad and he thought Cain was an animal. This is how Cain is punished for killing Abel.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you have corrected me. I remember reading in a commentary that it was one of Cain's decendents who was killed after 7 generations, but I can't find it and what you write is all I see written; that it was Cain himself who was killed. So I must have made a mistake. If anyone knows if there is such a commentary than let me know. Regardless, Lemach was punished for accidentally killing his forebearer after 7 generations, and if it happened in Biblical times, he would have to run to the city of refuge or a Goel Hadam could kill him. So we see that punishment extends further than 4 generations in regard to murder. Plus, Hashem punishes Israel as a whole and the righteous of a generation are not necessarily excluded from punishment if the majority of Israel is wicked; and G-d is still punishing for the sin of the Golden Calf and for other major sins of this nature. The Rambam never menchans anything about Gilgul or Tikkun, so yes, I do think that those great commentaries made up their own P'shat and that's fine, but don't call it the word of G-d, me and you can also make up our own P'shat if we back it up with Torah, that's all part of the Oral Law.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 18, 2007, 01:20:05 PM ---
--- Quote from: DanBenNoah on November 18, 2007, 11:51:29 AM ---It's interesting that in Sefer HaYasher (The Book of Jasher), Lamech (a descendant of Cain) accidentally kills Cain in the field with a bow and arrow because his sight was bad and he thought Cain was an animal. This is how Cain is punished for killing Abel.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you have corrected me. I remember reading in a commentary that it was one of Cain's decendents who was killed after 7 generations, but I can't find it and what you write is all I see written; that it was Cain himself who was killed. So I must have made a mistake. If anyone knows if there is such a commentary than let me know. Regardless, Lemach was punished for accidentally killing his forebearer after 7 generations, and if it happened in Biblical times, he would have to run to the city of refuge or a Goel Hadam could kill him. So we see that punishment extends further than 4 generations in regard to murder. Plus, Hashem punishes Israel as a whole and the righteous of a generation are not necessarily excluded from punishment if the majority of Israel is wicked; and G-d is still punishing for the sin of the Golden Calf and for other major sins of this nature. The Rambam never menchans anything about Gilgul or Tikkun, so yes, I do think that those great commentaries made up their own P'shat and that's fine, but don't call it the word of G-d, me and you can also make up our own P'shat if we back it up with Torah, that's all part of the Oral Law.
--- End quote ---
there are 2 lemechs, but we speak of the descendent of Cain.
lemech had tuval cain. tuval cain was 7th gen
the tradition is that lemech , killed tuval cain and cain. It is hinted at in the verse where lemech says he killed an adult and a child.
I have no idea what you are saying about making up pshat. And worse, that making it up is part of the oral tradition.
Many kabbalists claimed to be taught by one or more heavenly teachers. You may accept that, or not.
examples are the ramchal and the ari and the baal shem tov and maybe even the vilna gaon too.
I don`t think it says that was Cain`s punishment. That sounds like a problematic philosophical assumption.
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