Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
what does the Torah say about satan
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 19, 2007, 12:43:31 PM ---there are 2 lemechs, but we speak of the descendent of Cain.
lemech had tuval cain. tuval cain was 7th gen
the tradition is that lemech , killed tuval cain and cain. It is hinted at in the verse where lemech says he killed an adult and a child.
I have no idea what you are saying about making up pshat. And worse, that making it up is part of the oral tradition.
Many kabbalists claimed to be taught by one or more heavenly teachers. You may accept that, or not.
examples are the ramchal and the ari and the baal shem tov and maybe even the vilna gaon too.
I don`t think it says that was Cain`s punishment. That sounds like a problematic philosophical assumption.
--- End quote ---
Cool, so you also learned that Lemach killed a 7th generation decendant; Tubal Cain. Very good. The actual verse is very cryptic though so I see how their can be several different interpretations. I do not accept that the Kabbalists were taught by heavenly teachers and don't accept most of Kabbalah especially when it argues with the Rambam and after the writer of the Zohar's family admitted to him forging the book.
What you think about the oral tradition is what most Charedim think about the Oral Law which is not correct so I'll teach you what it is. There was a basic Oral tradition passed down through Moses probably somewhat similar in scope and size to the Mishnah. In every generation the Oral Law grows through expansion from this basic framework as Moses only transmitted a basic memorize-able framework that all the Torah is based on, it was impossible for him to transmit the entire Oral Law since no one can memorize it. Every generation when me and you (and Rabbis of course, especially arguing in houses of study) use the written Torah with the previous oral Law to expand the Torah, that is part of the growing Oral Law, and that is what the Talmud did. This is what the meaning of the verse in the Prophets "G-d desired for Israel's righteousness that Torah be made numerous and beautiful". Such is the wisdom of the Oral Law and the infinite content of the Torah which as Israel studies it it just grows to infinity. And if you need proof that such is the case and that Rabbis do make up new content not said at Sinai, then look in the beginning of Pirkei D'rebe Eliazer, where R' Shimon Bar Yochai from the Talmud says so specifically.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
The Zohar was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, anyway which Rabbi do you hold by when you make such claims? (who is your Rabbi?)
jdl4ever:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on November 19, 2007, 09:30:46 PM ---The Zohar was written by Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, anyway which Rabbi do you hold by when you make such claims? (who is your Rabbi?)
--- End quote ---
No it was not! This is a lie started by the Kabbalists. The writer of the Zohar was Rabbi Moshe de Leon of the 1200's and he claimed that he copied lost manuscripts that he found from R' Shimon Bar Yochai. However, no one except R' Moshe de Leon has seen these manuscripts and the story is very hard to believe that he discovered hidden manuscripts and no one except himself has seen them. In fact, even the Kabbalists close to the Rabbi claim that the document was never from R' Shimon Bar Yochai and his wife and daugher swore that the Rabbi forged it. This is what I have quoting from a pro Kabbalah site since I don't have the original Sefer that they talk about and you make your own conclusions. "Rabbi Yitzchak of Acco 5010-5100 (1250-1340 CE), a disciple of Ramban (after the latter settled in the Holy Land) and an accomplished kabbalist, decided to examine the question for himself, given the importance of the texts and the gravity of the rumors surrounding its authorship.
The entire account was recorded in Rabbi Yitzchak's Divrei HaYamim, but unfortunately no known manuscripts of this text are extant. Nevertheless, the majority of his account was published in Sefer HaYuchasin (Phillipovski edition, London and Edinburgh 1857) by Rabbi Avraham Zacuto (5185- c. 5275 / 1425- c. 1515 CE), although the conclusions Rabbi Yitzchak reached were not recorded. A paraphrase of the account follows:
Rabbi Yitzchak traveled to Spain, and he met Rabbi Moshe de Leon in Vallidolid. The latter swore under oath that he was in possession of the manuscript written by Rabbi Shimon. He averred that the manuscript was in his hometown of Avila and that he would gladly show it to Rabbi Yitzchak there. They parted company, and on the way back home Rabbi Moshe took ill in Arevalo and died there. Rabbi Yitzchak was extremely upset by this turn of events but decided nevertheless to proceed to Avila. There he found a certain David di PanCorbo who divulged to him that he had clarified without any doubts that the a work called Zohar had never come to be in Rabbi Moshe's possession nor was there any such work in existence.
Rather, Rabbi Moshe had knowledge of the Holy Name by which writing is produced, and this is how he had written the book. He told Rabbi Yitzchak that Rabbi Moshe had written the Zohar and imputed it to Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai in order to extract large sums of money from the wealthy for copies of the manuscript. When he had heard of Rabbi Moshe's passing, he asked a certain very wealthy man, Yosef di Avila to ask his wife to attempt to acquire the manuscript from Rabbi Moshe's widow in exchange for his son marrying her daughter and a promise to support her for the rest of her life. According to David, both the mother and daughter swore that Rabbi Moshe had never possessed such a work. Rather, he had written it "from his head, his heart, his knowledge and intellect." When Mrs. de Leon herself had questioned Rabbi Moshe as to why he claimed to be copying a manuscript (as he would be better off if he told them that he himself had written it), he replied that if he revealed that fact no one would be interested in buying it from him! But if he claimed they were the writings of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, they would buy it at a high price.
Rabbi Yitzchak was stunned at these words and found them hard to believe. He traveled on to Talavera where he found a great sage named Rabbi Yosef HaLevi, the son of Rabbi Todros (Abulafia) the kabbalist. Upon making inquires from the latter he was told that without a doubt Rabbi Moshe had in his possession the work called the Zohar written by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, and he would make copies of it and distribute them to whomever he pleased [note that nothing about money was mentioned here - Ed.]. Rabbi Yosef then stated that he himself had put Rabbi Moshe to the test. A long time after Rabbi Moshe had given him a copy of many pages of the Zohar, Rabbi Yosef hid a few pages and claimed that he had lost them, and asked Rabbi Moshe for another copy of those pages. Rabbi Moshe requested to see the pages preceding and following the lost sections, and a few days later he provided Rabbi Yosef with an exact copy of the missing pages.
Rabbi Yitzchak decided to continue his investigations and traveled on to Tolitula, where they told him that Rabbi Moshe's chief disciple, a certain Rabbi Yaakov, called heaven and earth to witness that the Zohar that was written by Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai...
Unfortunately, the account in Sefer HaYuchasin ends here since the Rabbi Avraham Zacuto did not find the remainder of the original text.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
Who is your Rabbi? (that you follow and has these views)
q_q_:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on November 19, 2007, 06:46:43 PM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on November 19, 2007, 12:43:31 PM ---there are 2 lemechs, but we speak of the descendent of Cain.
lemech had tuval cain. tuval cain was 7th gen
the tradition is that lemech , killed tuval cain and cain. It is hinted at in the verse where lemech says he killed an adult and a child.
I have no idea what you are saying about making up pshat. And worse, that making it up is part of the oral tradition.
Many kabbalists claimed to be taught by one or more heavenly teachers. You may accept that, or not.
examples are the ramchal and the ari and the baal shem tov and maybe even the vilna gaon too.
I don`t think it says that was Cain`s punishment. That sounds like a problematic philosophical assumption.
--- End quote ---
Cool, so you also learned that Lemach killed a 7th generation decendant; Tubal Cain. Very good. The actual verse is very cryptic though so I see how their can be several different interpretations. I do not accept that the Kabbalists were taught by heavenly teachers and don't accept most of Kabbalah especially when it argues with the Rambam and after the writer of the Zohar's family admitted to him forging the book.
What you think about the oral tradition is what most Charedim think about the Oral Law which is not correct so I'll teach you what it is. There was a basic Oral tradition passed down through Moses probably somewhat similar in scope and size to the Mishnah. In every generation the Oral Law grows through expansion from this basic framework as Moses only transmitted a basic memorize-able framework that all the Torah is based on, it was impossible for him to transmit the entire Oral Law since no one can memorize it. Every generation when me and you (and Rabbis of course, especially arguing in houses of study) use the written Torah with the previous oral Law to expand the Torah, that is part of the growing Oral Law, and that is what the Talmud did. This is what the meaning of the verse in the Prophets "G-d desired for Israel's righteousness that Torah be made numerous and beautiful". Such is the wisdom of the Oral Law and the infinite content of the Torah which as Israel studies it it just grows to infinity. And if you need proof that such is the case and that Rabbis do make up new content not said at Sinai, then look in the beginning of Pirkei D'rebe Eliazer, where R' Shimon Bar Yochai from the Talmud says so specifically.
--- End quote ---
I don`t have the sefer pirkei d`rabbi eliezer, but there is this link (this seems like a non orthodox site)
http://www.shavuot.org/journeys_six.htm
is that it? I don`t see anything there about making up new content.
See a commentary on rashi for the source of the lemech story, it is from Tanchuma and Yalkut Shimoni. These are TRADITIONS. Not INTERPRETATIONS.
Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb of Ohr has a lecture, titled "How to read jewish texts". You can download it online. I am fairly sure that is the one! He refers to the RAMCHAL, a logical philosopher rabbi, who proves with logic, that alot of what some people may think is "interpretation", is not. The traditions exist , and the rabbis are finding Hints to those traditions from the text. Orthodox jews have always claimed that midrashic traditions (and the rest) are from Sinai. And this is midrash.
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