jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[JewishTeddyBear]

Any given ideological/philosophical/religious system that would consider breaking Sabbath laws to be as bad or even worse than murder, is not the kind of system I would have any interest in following.  A G-d who has such standards, is likewise not the kind of G-d I would have respect enough to worship.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Judaism isnt a man made religion, and not everthing is explained by the simple limited "logic" that we all know of. Anyway the reason why we think that murder is worse then breaking the Shabb-t for example is becuase society has taught us that way. Ever since we were small we were told that killing is bad, etc. etc. etc. So we have it in our mental system that its a bad thing and we should refrain from doing it, so in the same way Jews should read and understand (threw education) that doing bad things like breaking Shabb-t is a very big sin to do and they should not do it.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Murder is the worst crime one can commit, regardless of what society teaches us.  What do you think this whole war against islamofascism is all about?  You can be sure that every time that they commit one of their horrendously evil acts of murder, that they think they are doing G-d's Will, ridding the world of evil people.

Besides, I can make a case for Judaism NOT equating violating the Sabbath with murdering one's fellow human being.  If John Smith the gentile approches David Cohen the Jew, telling Mr. Cohen that he (Mr Smith) will murder him if he does not drive on the Sabbath while eating a ham sandwich, Mr. Cohen is actually mandated according to Jewish law to get right in that car and start munching away at that chopped-up pig.  But if that same John Smith tells David Cohen to go kill Juan Hernandez or else Mr Smith will kill Mr Cohen, then Mr Cohen is obligated by Jewish law to let himself be killed.

It goes even further than this.  Even if a person's life is in danger not from another human being but because of one's health, and it is the Sabbath, one is obligated according to Jewish law to get in that ambulance and rush to the hospital immediately, to save his life.

Clearly, then, the Jewish G-d DOES consider human life more sacred than following the laws of the Sabbath.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Im not writing to you of my opinion, I only state the Halacha and what is written and said by the  Torah and Hachamim, you can either accept it or not, nobodys justifying murder so lets not justify any other sin. It  would be wise to accept the wrongdoing (sin) and repent instead of making all sorts of excuses.

[JewishTeddyBear]

What I just stated is also Jewish law.  The fact of the matter is, life is more sacred than the Jewish Sabbath, not only according to logic and common sense, but according to Jewish law. 

It would be wise for you to accept yourown wrongdoing (sin) and repent instead of making all sorts of excuses.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

and what did I do wronge again? I dont understand what you are saying please explain.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Somehow I suspected you are the one who used to call yourself raiseYourFist

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Somehow I suspected you are the one who used to call yourself raiseYourFist

nop sorry. I used the same screname for the longest time. I have been one of the earliest members of this forum dating back to the time that Yakov told me that hes putting together a JTF forum and hes inviting me to join. Anyway Im not criticizing you or anyone just to put people down, but what Im writing is important in order for the Jews here to recognize their mistakes by seeing the great damage of breaking Shabb-t and G-d willing change.

[Dr. Dan]

Would anyone who murdered someone else go on a publc forum and admit that they are a killer? Hey we are all sinners arent we?

You say that violating the Shabbat is like murder ?

yes, maybe worse (in some instances), either way for both the Torah says that they deserve death.

That's really nuts! I would rather violate every sabbath of my life by lighting a fire purposely than to kill an innocent person cold bloodedly!

[JewishTeddyBear]

Definitely.  As I said before, I would never worship a G-d who would equate the value of Sabbath with that of a human life.

[Dr. Dan]

Murder is the worst crime one can commit, regardless of what society teaches us.  What do you think this whole war against islamofascism is all about?  You can be sure that every time that they commit one of their horrendously evil acts of murder, that they think they are doing G-d's Will, ridding the world of evil people.

Besides, I can make a case for Judaism NOT equating violating the Sabbath with murdering one's fellow human being.  If John Smith the gentile approches David Cohen the Jew, telling Mr. Cohen that he (Mr Smith) will murder him if he does not drive on the Sabbath while eating a ham sandwich, Mr. Cohen is actually mandated according to Jewish law to get right in that car and start munching away at that chopped-up pig.  But if that same John Smith tells David Cohen to go kill Juan Hernandez or else Mr Smith will kill Mr Cohen, then Mr Cohen is obligated by Jewish law to let himself be killed.

It goes even further than this.  Even if a person's life is in danger not from another human being but because of one's health, and it is the Sabbath, one is obligated according to Jewish law to get in that ambulance and rush to the hospital immediately, to save his life.

Clearly, then, the Jewish G-d DOES consider human life more sacred than following the laws of the Sabbath.

There are two other things also that one should take death for besides beign forced to kill someone: 1. Bowing down to idols; 2. committing immoral sexual acts.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

http://www.israel613.com/ - search for the Shabb-t.

1) "To fear the L-rd your G-d all your days"- This refers to Shabbat and festivals (Yevamoth 93).
2) "Fires are common only where there is desecration of the Shabbat" (Shabbat 119b).
2 THE HOLINESS OF SHABBAT
3) "Jerusalem was destroyed only because the Shabbat was desecrated" therein (ibid.).
4) When Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai would see his mother talking too much on Shabbat, he would say to her, "Mother, today is Shabbat (Yerushalmi Shabbat 15:3)."
IDOLATRY AND DESECRATION OF SHABBAT HAVE THE SAME GRAVITY
5) "We may accept sacrifices from Jewish sinners so that they will repent, except from an apostate who offers wine as a libation to idols, or a flagrant violator of the Shabbat. From here we deduce that idolatry and desecration of the Shabbat are of equal gravity" (Eruvin 69b).
6) "I would think that honoring one's father and mother would supersede the Shabbat. Scripture states, therefore: Each man shall fear his mother and father, and you shall observe my Shabbatot" (Yevamoth 5b).
7) "One who casts excessive fear upon the members of his household, will eventually desecrate the Shabbat" (Gittin 6b).
"Said Haman, "if you wish to uproot them, uproot the Shabbat and curtail it, afterwards you will destroy them" (Esther Rabbah 7).
9) "Tur Shimon was destroyed because they would play ball on Shabbat" (Eichah Rabbah 2:3).
10) "Desecration of Shabbat is one of three sins for which their perpetrators are blamed for committing all sins." (Midrash Tannaim, Deut. 5).
11) "Whoever desecrates Shabbat, although he possesses Torah and good deeds, has no share in the World to Come" (Avoth d'Rabbi Nathan, ch. 26).
IT IS CONSIDERED AS VIOLATING ALL OF THE TORAH
12) "If you desecrated the Shabbat, I (G-d) consider it as though you desecrated all the commandments" (Shemoth Rabbah 25)
13) "Whoever desecrates the Shabbat, testifies before He Who spoke and the world came into existence, that He did not create His world in six days and rest on the seventh" (Mechilta Yitro)
14) "Any Jew who did not observe Shabbat in this world, has no rest to eternity. One official takes his body and brings it into Gehinnom in the presence of the wicked, where his soul has no rest in the fires of Hell. When Shabbat is over, that official returns his body to its place, and each is tortured individually" (Midrash quoted by Maavar Yabbok, Sifthei Renanoth 39).

[JewishTeddyBear]

Danny, that is true according to Torah law.  Personally, though, if somebody said he would murder me unless I bowed down to his stupid idol, I would immediately bow and kiss that idol as if my life depended on it...and it would.  And if somebody came up to me and said he would murder me unless I go commit adultery, I guess it would depend on how hot and sexy the married woman in question is. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

[JewishTeddyBear]

I get the feeling that what Tzvi is really upset about is his own honor rather than any given interpretation of Torah law.  He is also showing extreme intolerance toward any view that is not his own.  I bet he is a liberal.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

I bet he is a liberal.

 

[Dr. Dan]

Danny, that is true according to Torah law.  Personally, though, if somebody said he would murder me unless I bowed down to his stupid idol, I would immediately bow and kiss that idol as if my life depended on it...and it would.  And if somebody came up to me and said he would murder me unless I go commit adultery, I guess it would depend on how hot and sexy the married woman in question is. 

Here i disagree with you.  If someone said, "reject your god or else I'll kill you," the Jewish way to do it is to die for Gd's Name.

Comitting aldutery? well, I was thinking more like a scenario of, "I'll kill you unless you have sex with your mother, sister, father, brother etc..." or "with that animal (dog, cat, etc)... Adultery? have to ask a rabbi about that scenario...such as, "i'll kill you unless you have sex with that married woman who's husband I have tied up and forced to watch you do it..." I think even especially that situation, you should take death, since comitting adultery in that situation is forcing you to rape another person...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

http://dailyhalacha.com/ - under September 16 2007
 Discussing groups of sinners who forfeit their share in the World to Come

In Halacha 9 (listen to audio for precise citation), the Rambam proceeds to define the next category of sinners, the "Meshumadim" ("defectors"). He writes that this term refers to one of the following types of sinners:

1) A person who intentionally, habitually and publicly rejects one of the 613 commandments. Even if a person faithfully observes the other 612 Misvot, if he makes a point of publicly transgressing one Misva on a regular basis, such as if he intentionally wears Shaatnez (a garment woven with wool and linen) or cuts his sideburns, he is deemed a "Meshumad."
 

[JewishTeddyBear]

Please re-read what I said more carefully.  I acknowledged that according to Jewish law, a Jew must give up his life, rather than engage in murder, idolatry or adultery. 

But then I went on to say that I personally, would certainly not give up my life rather than bow down to an idol or have sex with another man's wife.  I value my life way too much to do otherwise.

Again, this is just a personal decision.  I am not necessarily advocating this approach for anybody else.

[Dr. Dan]

Stop showig your ignorance and disrespect for the Torah, the above post is complete heresy and the writer should remove it and opologize. 

 Its a big misconception that our genious "democracy" has taught us- to think according to "my" opinion, or "I belive" , and all the other non-sense we hear these days. G-d's laws are his laws, if you dont like it, doesnt mean we change the laws. G-d knows more then you and me and we should follow the Torah and not act with arrogance and have an opinion (contrary to G-ds Torah).

Hey Tzvi, i'm not sure if you were referring to my post or someone else's in regards to choosing to violate every sabbath rest of my life over killing an innocent human being. If you were upset by my post, I'm sorry that you are upset. However, I disagree even with the interpretations you gave me of some of these wise sages, bless their memories. Perhaps, I need to look into what they had to say with a learned rabbi on the subject just to have a clarification and perhaps a little arguement with him if he repeats exactly what you stated. At this point, I disagree compeletely with all my heart what you wrote stating that violating shabbat might in fact be worse than murder...that is soooo ridiculous and INSANE! Violating the sabbath certainly goes against Gd's law..but Gd is sooo powerful and endearing and merciful, that a little speck like me violating the sabbath is not as big a deal to Him. However, if i took the life of an innocent human being, I can never get forgiveness from that person because murder is a sin against Man/Human.  Certainly, if I had the choice of doing one or the other, Gd forbid, I woudl choose to violate every sabbath for the sake of not committing murder of an innocent human being. I will NOT recant that post and you'll just have to remain upset at me for making that comment. In my heart, I think that, so far, I'm right.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

on the topic of Shabb-t someone ( Yakov) asked my about Shabb-t and why I write a dash, I also remember saying that Shabb-t is a Holy name, I forgot where I have learned it, but now I have came across it.- http://www.israel613.com/

SHABBAT IS THE NAME OF THE HOLY ONE BLESSED BE HE
23) "Shabbat is the Name of the Holy One, Blessed be He, as is explained in the holy Zohar, Shemoth 88. It is, therefore, prohibited to pronounce 'it' where we may not utter holy words of Torah, I know some very pious people who exercise caution not to mention the word Shabbat unnecessarily" (B'nei Yissochor, 1:1). 26) "It is stated in the book Ruach Chaim (by Rabbi Chaim Palaggi o.b.m.) ch. 84, that, according to Chesed L'Avraham, who maintains that, according to the Zohar, Shabbat may not be mentioned in an unclean place, one should rather say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat". Without a vow, I will take care to say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat" (Sedey Chemed).

[Dr. Dan]

Please re-read what I said more carefully.  I acknowledged that according to Jewish law, a Jew must give up his life, rather than engage in murder, idolatry or adultery. 

But then I went on to say that I personally, would certainly not give up my life rather than bow down to an idol or have sex with another man's wife.  I value my life way too much to do otherwise.

Again, this is just a personal decision.  I am not necessarily advocating this approach for anybody else.

oops, didn't see the "personally"...I think that "personally" you would be making a mistake..but...then again...I speak about taking death..i might be a chicken to save my life..Thank Gd haven't been in that situation.

[Dr. Dan]

on the topic of Shabb-t someone ( Yakov) asked my about Shabb-t and why I write a dash, I also remember saying that Shabb-t is a Holy name, I forgot where I have learned it, but now I have came across it.- http://www.israel613.com/

SHABBAT IS THE NAME OF THE HOLY ONE BLESSED BE HE
23) "Shabbat is the Name of the Holy One, Blessed be He, as is explained in the holy Zohar, Shemoth 88. It is, therefore, prohibited to pronounce 'it' where we may not utter holy words of Torah, I know some very pious people who exercise caution not to mention the word Shabbat unnecessarily" (B'nei Yissochor, 1:1). 26) "It is stated in the book Ruach Chaim (by Rabbi Chaim Palaggi o.b.m.) ch. 84, that, according to Chesed L'Avraham, who maintains that, according to the Zohar, Shabbat may not be mentioned in an unclean place, one should rather say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat". Without a vow, I will take care to say, "Shabbah" instead of "Shabbat" (Sedey Chemed).

So, Wise men inspired by Gd decreed these things, bless their memories...I'm not a wise man..not yet. It may be decreed as you have quoted here...now it's up to me to ask why and to question and to understand.

but still, I'm not convinced by quotes by wise men that following shabbat is a more important mitzva than not killing someone innocent. I'm sorry Tzvi..i need a Rabbi to explain this to me in plain English language...or even an AMerican who is studying this in Yeshiva....

[JewishTeddyBear]

There is no point in my responding to Tzvi directly, since he is filled with fanaticism in the name of religion and is not really listening to anybody at this point.

To Danny, I agree with you in your value of Sabbath vs. human life.  The truth is, this same principle applies to ANY of the Torah commandments.  G-d does not really need our following His commandments, as He needs nothing.  It is all for our own sake.  So if we happen to not follow the Sabbath, that is our own lack of taking an opportunity for spiritual growth, but it really hurts nobody but ourselves.

When we do the wrong thing against our fellow human being, the matter is entirely different.  There, people are definitely affected by how we behave toward them.  In fact, G-d does not even forgive us for sins against our fellow man, if we have not first resolved the issues with our fellow human beings. 

In short, G-d cares far more how we treat each other, than how we treat Him.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

dont worry i dont take it personally, Im not arguing for the sake of arguing but pointing out the importance of keeping Shabb-t. you are right IF in the situation of killing someone or breaking Shabb-t you have to break Shabb-t, but ask yourself did you come to that situation this Shabb-t? if yes then the next Shabb-t? and every Shabb-t people come across that situation? about my comment I heard Rav Mizrahi (divineinformation.com ) say that a breaker Shabb-t in some instances is worse then a murderer, ex- even a murderer can be counted in a minyan, a Shabb-t desecrator cannot. ETC, ETC.
 Okay lets say murder is worse (anyway im not arguing for murder), is it still okay to break Shabb-t and even more publically go on a forum, making and showing that an individual doesnt care about making big sins and does it publically with no shame? - also risking losing their share in the world to come and having (G-d forbid) NO PLACE IN THE WORLD TO COME? - tell me honestly is it worth it? Take it to heart brother.