jtf forum working on the Sabbath?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Jeffguy great to see you are listing to Rav Mizrahi- he really has a lot of Knowledge, do you also know that their are allways updates on http://kolyakov.org/ -of Rav Mizrahi and other great Rabbanim (Im listing right now, its like heaven).

[jdl4ever]

OK here is why the computer biblically violates the Sabbath (and don't tell me it is bull crap since I am a biochemistry major and understand this stuff).  The cathode ray tube of a CRT monitor is definitely in the category of lighting a fire since a beam of high energy electrons are forced off a superheated cathode at very high voltages.  All Rabbis agree that there is no difference between a candle and a light bulb. The temperature at the cathode tip in the cathode ray tube is hotter than your oven.  And you were to pump some flammable material in there it would ignite it.  If you smash the monitor it would expolde due to the cathode's tip vaporizing.  Also, the various lights on the computer are considered like lighting a fire (if the are LEDs then it is questionable) and they don't all stay on.  The hard drive indicator light blinks as you use the computer, as does the caps lock light, as does the network light indicator.  Also the brush type motors in the computer (they are used to cool the fans) are probably considered like lighting a fire since if you ever took one of these apart and watched them function, you see that the brushes emit thousands of tiny sparks as the motor turns.  So you can't have it both ways.  Even if you argue with all the Rabbis and think something must react with oxygen to be considered lighting a fire (which a bulb doesn't do since it is in a vaccum) and the temperature is not what makes something fire, then the brush motors in the computer do not reach a high temperature, but spark, and burn oxygen so according to you they are considered like lighting a fire. 

Rabinically speaking, moving or using the computer is Muksah since one can violate the Sabbath if one uses it.  The Rabbis of old were great Torah Scholars and what the Sanhedrin decreed must be followed since you are not even 1% as well versed in Torah as one of these Rabbis and we have a Mosaic tradition that allows Rabbis to make fences around the Torah.  And the fact that a light bulb is the same thing as a candle Halachakly is unanimously agreed on by all Orthodox Rabbis of recent times.  If you don't understand their decree then there is nothing wrong with their decree, there is most likely something wrong with you since obviously you are purposely stopping yourself from understanding because you want to give into your desires.

The more I read your posts the more I appreciate why the Rabbis made fences around the Sabbath and why this must have been transmitted through Moses since people have a tendency to self rationalize when they really want to do something and convince themselves it is permitted, as you are self rationalizing yourself into believing that the computer is permitted.  The fences that the Rabbis put stop simple people from self rationalizing into doing major sins. 

Besides this, it defeats the whole purpose of the Sabbath which is to have a day where you rest from doing weekly activities and devote the day to serving G-d and celebrating in his glory. 

[jdl4ever]

What is ridiculous is to NOT consider how we treat each other to be more important than the sabbath.  When the gentile came to Hillel demanding that Hillel teach him the entire Torah standing on one foot, Hillel did not mention the sabbath at all.  Instead, he said, "Do not do to others what you would not have others do to you.  All the rest is commentary."

And yes, the more people in here arrogantly and self-righteously try to shove the ritual aspects of Judaism down our throats, the more I am going to rebel and do the very opposite.  I let no man rule over me, not even strangers on an internet forum who exploit their defective understanding of religion to gain a false sense of their own superiority.

That story is very true and you are right to an extent.  He meant that treating others like yourself IS THE KEY to the Torah.  This is because the Torah is a way to emulate G-d and the main aspect of G-d is that he is a kind and merciful G-d.  Without treating others like yourself, you will not understand the Torah or do the commandments correctly as many the commandments are based on this one.  So in one respect this commandment is above the Sabbath.  But in another respect the Sabbath is above this commandment since according to the Torah (I'm not making this up, look it up) if one willingly violates the Sabbath he is to be killed but one who violates loving your neighbor is not killed. 

What you are failing to see is the big picture.  The Torah has 613 commandments that Jews are required to do, some with very grave penalties, and simply doing this one commandment is not a substitute to doing the other 612 since in the Torah G-d commanded us to follow these commandments.  While honoring your fellow is one of the greatest commandments since much of the Torah is based on it, the rest of the Torah can not be ignored and Hillel was not saying that the rest of the Torah is meaningless.  It's comparable to a architect asking his instructor "tell me how to build something on one foot" and him replying that "the foundation of a building is what really counts".  So does that mean that the architect only builds the foundation and does not build the rest of the building? Of course not.  BTW, G-d's other attribute is retribution and many of the the other commandments are based on this.

[Shlomo]

OK here is why the computer biblically violates the Sabbath (and don't tell me it is bull crap since I am a biochemistry major and understand this stuff).  The cathode ray tube of a CRT monitor is definitely in the category of lighting a fire since a beam of high energy electrons are forced off a superheated cathode at very high voltages.  All Rabbis agree that there is no difference between a candle and a light bulb. The temperature at the cathode tip in the cathode ray tube is hotter than your oven.  And you were to pump some flammable material in there it would ignite it.  If you smash the monitor it would expolde due to the cathode's tip vaporizing.  Also, the various lights on the computer are considered like lighting a fire (if the are LEDs then it is questionable) and they don't all stay on.  The hard drive indicator light blinks as you use the computer, as does the caps lock light, as does the network light indicator.  Also the brush type motors in the computer (they are used to cool the fans) are probably considered like lighting a fire since if you ever took one of these apart and watched them function, you see that the brushes emit thousands of tiny sparks as the motor turns.  So you can't have it both ways.  Even if you argue with all the Rabbis and think something must react with oxygen to be considered lighting a fire (which a bulb doesn't do since it is in a vaccum) and the temperature is not what makes something fire, then the brush motors in the computer do not reach a high temperature, but spark, and burn oxygen so according to you they are considered like lighting a fire...

Wow, jdl4ever... that is one of the most amazing posts! I copied it and saved it in notepad so I could keep it for future reference. GREAT POST!!

[JewishTeddyBear]

I dare you to name even one Jew who has been killed for violating the sabbath since biblical times.  I dare you to realize how many people have been murdered because people did not treat each other with common human decency.

Judaism does not ask us to sacrifice our brains.  Yet the people in here who claim to seriously think that violating the sabbath is worse than mistreating our fellow human beings, are not using their heads at all.  They are even treating G-d Himself like an idiot.

[jdl4ever]

I dare you to name even one Jew who has been killed for violating the sabbath since biblical times.  I dare you to realize how many people have been murdered because people did not treat each other with common human decency.

The myth you have that no Jews were killed for violating the Sabbath since biblical times is false, many Jews were killed for violating the Sabbath since up until Talmudic times the Jews had their own court system with corporal punishment.   In fact the Talmud states that they even killed some Sadducite heretics for violating Rabbinic commandments since it was a time of danger for Judaism with all the Sadducites openly rebelling against the Rabbis.

[jdl4ever]

Wow, jdl4ever... that is one of the most amazing posts! I copied it and saved it in notepad so I could keep it for future reference. GREAT POST!!

Thanks Jeffguy.  I have a very creative mind and always come up with new ideas on the spot. 

[JewishTeddyBear]

The greatest Talmudic sage to ever live, Rabbi Akiva, said that if a Jewish court killed more than one Jew in seventy years, it was considered a murderous court.  As I keep saying but nobody seems to want to listen, the death penalty for violating the Sabbath mentioned in the Torah is only meant to set a standard for how important it is to keep that holiday.  It was not meant to give permission to Jews to murder other Jews any time they violated the Sabbath.  If it were, the Jews would have been extinct a long time ago, a victim of its own murderous ways. 

Judaism is a life-affirming religion, not some islamofascist-like death cult that some people in this forum keep wishing it to be.

[newman]

The greatest Talmudic sage to ever live, Rabbi Akiva, said that if a Jewish court killed more than one Jew in seventy years, it was considered a murderous court

I heard that too.

I also heard that (unlike our courts) if a man is condemned to death and turns out to be innocent, the judges are guilty of murder.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Wow, finally somebody supports my more moral side of things! 

If witnesses falsely testify in court condemning a man to death, then yes, those false witnesses receive the death penalty.

[newman]

Wow, finally somebody supports my more moral side of things! 

If witnesses falsely testify in court condemning a man to death, then yes, those false witnesses receive the death penalty.

I just read the same thing you did. I read it in Rabbi Blech's book.

It's like the eye for an eye thing. It's symbolises what you should get but nobody pokes eyes out.....except the muslims who had no Talmud.

[JewishTeddyBear]

What moslems do is 100 eyes for an eye.  Draw cartoons of mohammed they do not like, and 500 people get murdered.

Rabbi Benjamin Blech is such a great teacher of Judaism.  Aside from his public lectures and very useful and informative books, this morning I discovered that he has made many little youTube videos.  So characteristic of him, he makes them very short, and there is never a dull moment with him.  He is the consummate teacher.

[newman]

What moslems do is 100 eyes for an eye.  Draw cartoons of mohammed they do not like, and 500 people get murdered.

Rabbi Benjamin Blech is such a great teacher of Judaism.  Aside from his public lectures and very useful and informative books, this morning I discovered that he has made many little youTube videos.  So characteristic of him, he makes them very short, and there is never a dull moment with him.  He is the consummate teacher.

Open one of books and there's usually a gag in the first line. Funny guy.

[Dr. Dan]

OK here is why the computer biblically violates the Sabbath (and don't tell me it is bull crap since I am a biochemistry major and understand this stuff).  The cathode ray tube of a CRT monitor is definitely in the category of lighting a fire since a beam of high energy electrons are forced off a superheated cathode at very high voltages.  All Rabbis agree that there is no difference between a candle and a light bulb. The temperature at the cathode tip in the cathode ray tube is hotter than your oven.  And you were to pump some flammable material in there it would ignite it.  If you smash the monitor it would expolde due to the cathode's tip vaporizing.  Also, the various lights on the computer are considered like lighting a fire (if the are LEDs then it is questionable) and they don't all stay on.  The hard drive indicator light blinks as you use the computer, as does the caps lock light, as does the network light indicator.  Also the brush type motors in the computer (they are used to cool the fans) are probably considered like lighting a fire since if you ever took one of these apart and watched them function, you see that the brushes emit thousands of tiny sparks as the motor turns.  So you can't have it both ways.  Even if you argue with all the Rabbis and think something must react with oxygen to be considered lighting a fire (which a bulb doesn't do since it is in a vaccum) and the temperature is not what makes something fire, then the brush motors in the computer do not reach a high temperature, but spark, and burn oxygen so according to you they are considered like lighting a fire. 

Rabinically speaking, moving or using the computer is Muksah since one can violate the Sabbath if one uses it.  The Rabbis of old were great Torah Scholars and what the Sanhedrin decreed must be followed since you are not even 1% as well versed in Torah as one of these Rabbis and we have a Mosaic tradition that allows Rabbis to make fences around the Torah.  And the fact that a light bulb is the same thing as a candle Halachakly is unanimously agreed on by all Orthodox Rabbis of recent times.  If you don't understand their decree then there is nothing wrong with their decree, there is most likely something wrong with you since obviously you are purposely stopping yourself from understanding because you want to give into your desires.

The more I read your posts the more I appreciate why the Rabbis made fences around the Sabbath and why this must have been transmitted through Moses since people have a tendency to self rationalize when they really want to do something and convince themselves it is permitted, as you are self rationalizing yourself into believing that the computer is permitted.  The fences that the Rabbis put stop simple people from self rationalizing into doing major sins. 

Besides this, it defeats the whole purpose of the Sabbath which is to have a day where you rest from doing weekly activities and devote the day to serving G-d and celebrating in his glory. 

What if a TV or a computer is left on (and no screen saver)?  THe machine like an automatic light is doing the work by itself without one putting it in motion...just like a Shabbos goy does it for many synogogues.

I do not disagree with the fences. I think the fences are a beautiful thing.  By all means, my children are giogn to learn about fences when they grow up.  Right now, I'll be on the fence about certain fences...

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

The greatest Talmudic sage to ever live, Rabbi Akiva, said that if a Jewish court killed more than one Jew in seventy years, it was considered a murderous court. 

1- you are misquoting the passage. What you are implying is that a Jewish court that did kill a violator (whomever he may be- a killer, adulturer, Shabb-t breaker, etc.) is a murderer?

[Shlomo]

Judaism is a life-affirming religion, not some islamofascist-like death cult that some people in this forum keep wishing it to be.

JewishTeddyBear, no one here could even fathom Judaism being some islamofascist-like death cult, G-d forbid! Where are you getting this from?? It's like you said earlier... this was stated to show the importance of Shabbat - NOT to threaten Jews on the forum with death! Maybe you are reading a bit too much into some of the posts.

What if a TV or a computer is left on (and no screen saver)?  THe machine like an automatic light is doing the work by itself without one putting it in motion...just like a Shabbos goy does it for many synogogues.

I do not disagree with the fences. I think the fences are a beautiful thing.  By all means, my children are giogn to learn about fences when they grow up.  Right now, I'll be on the fence about certain fences...

dannycookie57, that is correct. If you turn your monitor on before Shabbat (just like if you set up a light timer before Shabbat), you are not violating any rules.

I like what you said about the fences being beautiful.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

whats the point of turning on the monitor on Shabb-t if you are not allowed to touch the keyboard or do anything?

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

What if you leave a radio on and listen on Shabbat without touching it? I used to do that for Yom Kippur on the alarm clock radio in my room. I would have it on for 25 hours.

belive me, once you keep keeping Shabb-t, go past the so-called "pain" and the spiritual/psychological blockage, and resolve to keep Shabb-t- radio and t.v. and whatever else will seem like non-sense. Shabb-t is such a great pleasure- you eat, pray, learn Torah, radio would be and is a joke compared to that. (anyway we can do that 6 out of 7 times a week so one day is no sacrifice.)

[JewishTeddyBear]

Certainly, you are allowed according to Jewish law to leave your radio, television, computer, heater, air conditioner, or any other electrical appliace on the entire shabbat.  In fact, when I used to be religious, I would set my radio timer such that it would play about two hours during each shabbat.  I did not want to leave it on the whole time or else I would not be able to sleep.  Besides, I did want to spend at least some time studying the Torah.  But sometimes I imagined myself owning eight radios, and setting each one to play two hours each, such that it would never, ever stop playing during my waking hours.

Turning the computer on or off, or printing things, on Shabbat is definitely prohibited by all Torah authorities.  But there does seem to be some disagreement as to whether one can simply type on one's computer, since one is not really printing anything but rather creating images on a screen that are not really there.  But I am skating on thin ice here, as I do not know this subject to comment in any more detail than that.  Certainly just about every worthy Rabbi would suggest to you to just stay off the computer for that one day of the week. 

[Dr. Dan]

What if you leave a radio on and listen on Shabbat without touching it? I used to do that for Yom Kippur on the alarm clock radio in my room. I would have it on for 25 hours.

belive me, once you keep keeping Shabb-t, go past the so-called "pain" and the spiritual/psychological blockage, and resolve to keep Shabb-t- radio and t.v. and whatever else will seem like non-sense. Shabb-t is such a great pleasure- you eat, pray, learn Torah, radio would be and is a joke compared to that. (anyway we can do that 6 out of 7 times a week so one day is no sacrifice.)

I hear you, Tzvi on that...believe me, it would make sense for everyone to try to strive in that direction...but it won't happen with all religious minded Jews in this generation..all these things do take time.

[jdl4ever]

Jewishteddybear, I see no logic to what you are saying.  When the Torah says that one must be killed for certain sins, then G-d means it.  If you need even more proof, G-d told Moses to kill a man who carried on Sabbath and he followed G-d's will.  When G-d says something is eternal, he means it and G-d does not change his mind.  For the thrid time, what you are saying is a false myth that has no basis in reality.  The Jewish courts did kill people who violated the Sabbath and other sins with warning and with witnesses.  They also gave lashes to those who violated other sins.  The saying that if the court killed MORE than one Jew in 70 years is a murderous court is another way of saying that if they did kill one person every 70 years then they are fine.  If the Jewish courts did not kill anyone ever then the saying would have been "if the court kills anyone in 70 years then they are a murderous court".  So this shows you that it was common for the Jewish courts to kill a man once every 70 years and there are numerous Talmudic passages that talk about the Jewish courts killing people according to what the Bible says.  You are ignoring what I said in that the Tamud states that the courts even killed people for violating Rabbinic laws in certain times of crisis, so obviously they also killed those who violated the Sabbath.  The reason why the Jewish courts did not kill people frequently is that there must be witnesses to the crime and the witnesses must have warned the man before he committed the crime that he is violating the Torah and they must even read him the Torah passage if I remember correctly.   It is very rare to have all these requirements met but it did happen around once every 70 years in a Jewish town.  

The eye for an eye thing is the exception and not the rule.  On this we have a tradition from Moses that it means that if one injures someone they must compensate them monetarilly.  

[Dr. Dan]

Certainly, you are allowed according to Jewish law to leave your radio, television, computer, heater, air conditioner, or any other electrical appliace on the entire shabbat.  In fact, when I used to be religious, I would set my radio timer such that it would play about two hours during each shabbat.  I did not want to leave it on the whole time or else I would not be able to sleep.  Besides, I did want to spend at least some time studying the Torah.  But sometimes I imagined myself owning eight radios, and setting each one to play two hours each, such that it would never, ever stop playing during my waking hours.

Turning the computer on or off, or printing things, on Shabbat is definitely prohibited by all Torah authorities.  But there does seem to be some disagreement as to whether one can simply type on one's computer, since one is not really printing anything but rather creating images on a screen that are not really there.  But I am skating on thin ice here, as I do not know this subject to comment in any more detail than that.  Certainly just about every worthy Rabbi would suggest to you to just stay off the computer for that one day of the week. 

I would even add that typing on a computer can be a temptation to lead to one doing business on Shabbat...But if it is temptation..then my answer would be that everyone gets tempted differently than others..therefore, for those who get tempted, build that fence and leave teh computer off on Shabbat.

I figure the one advantage of being able to text message on shabbat is to talk to fellow Jews who are not around you and that you hardly have time to talk to them during the week.

[Dr. Dan]

Judaism is a life-affirming religion, not some islamofascist-like death cult that some people in this forum keep wishing it to be.

JewishTeddyBear, no one here could even fathom Judaism being some islamofascist-like death cult, G-d forbid! Where are you getting this from?? It's like you said earlier... this was stated to show the importance of Shabbat - NOT to threaten Jews on the forum with death! Maybe you are reading a bit too much into some of the posts.

What if a TV or a computer is left on (and no screen saver)?  THe machine like an automatic light is doing the work by itself without one putting it in motion...just like a Shabbos goy does it for many synogogues.

I do not disagree with the fences. I think the fences are a beautiful thing.  By all means, my children are giogn to learn about fences when they grow up.  Right now, I'll be on the fence about certain fences...

dannycookie57, that is correct. If you turn your monitor on before Shabbat (just like if you set up a light timer before Shabbat), you are not violating any rules.

I like what you said about the fences being beautiful.

hey thanks...you know what i wrote to chaim on the last askjtf. The logic the rabbis used back then are beautiful to my brain like good art is beautiful to my eyes.

but remember, I'm on the fence about certain fences.

[jdl4ever]

According to me if the computer is on all the time and you use it on Sabbath then you are still violating the Sabbath for the reasons discussed above.  Namely, there are network lights, hard drive lights and keyboard lights blinking when you use it that would not blink at all if you do not use the computer and it is simply on.  Also, the computer goes into standby when you don't use it for a while and the monitors CRT turns off and it goes into a sleep state.  The computers hard drive also turns off and goes into a sleep state.  When you use the computer, the CRT goes out of standby and turns on (thus turning on the CRT and usually another LED turns on which is a differnt color) and the computers hard drive turns back on (which may use a brushed motor and definitely turns on a hard drive indicator light).  Also, on all laptops and on several desktop computer models, the CPU fan is controlled by a variable speed motor that ups the speed of the motor when the CPU is being heavily used and downs the speed of the motor when the CPU is not being used as much.  There are too many issues that you are probably violating the Sabbath even if the computer is on.  Even if you tell me that LEDs are probably not the same as light bulbs and you are sure all the lights on your computer are LEDs then you at least have to adjust the power settings of your computer so that the hard drive never turns off and it never goes into standby and it never brings the monitor into standby, and you have to do research if you have a speed variable motor on your CPU.  Then maybee you won't be violating the Sabbath Biblically but I wouldn't take that risk.

[JewishTeddyBear]

Anything that happens once in 70 years is not exactly what any normal person would call a common practice.  When Rabbi Akiva spoke about a court being murderous if they killed people more than once in seventy years, he was including all crimes punishable by the death penalty, even murderers.  And unlike some people in this forum, the Talmudic Rabbis were far more likely to kill murderers than sabbath violators.   Remember, they valued ethical, moral behavior, not using the Jewish Task Force forum as a means by which to advocate mass murdering all Jews.  I deliberately say All, because all Jews have violated the Sabbath in one way or another at some time in their lives.

And by the way, what I am saying IS the Torah view.  Those who claim to represent the Torah yet advocate murdering Jews for switching on a light on Shabbat, are really islamofascist wannabes thinly disguised.