Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?

[kellymaureen]

call the Israeli Forces "occupiers".....to which I called on and demanded clearification.... 

You cannot get any clearer than that my dear.....its crystal clear what that means, if we are going to start splitting hairs about it lets just say that she was taken "out of context" like the good old koran and be done with it ....Mar i agree with you 100%

[MarZutra]

I must say, this is one of the most childish things situations I have ever seen since I started on the JTF.  Imagine, all, or most, of the most gifted members arguing over something so stupid as this...and as childish as this entire thread.  It is a FACT that Sarah said the Israel Forces were "occupiers" and also that the fable of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was in the Torah but the Jews couldn't decide how many where in the cave....    Why the Hell would I lie?  If anyone cares to go back through all of my posts and tell me where I have lied, been deceitful and havent gone so far as to present credible reads and referances than please do so. 

I didn't know anything about the Qur'an and Kelly until this post, I don't think or perhaps shortly before...  This is rediculous and childish in all actuality...

[Daniel]

Funny then she lied to me.....again....   Oh, I forgot it is excusable because she's a kid.  Perhaps when a 15 year old skinhead comes onto the forum... oops ex-skin head...  the same rationalizations will be awarded?  Ah, nevermind.. it is all a waste of my time.

I'm so impressed with this Kelly's deeds.  Shes got bigger balls than 99% of Canadian society...

Ya know, it's interesting, for quite a while, I've been wondering why more people like you haven't been expressing these types of suspicions much sooner. Perhaps this was something that was an underlying issue and feeling for many posters on here which is just coming out now. It's a similar situation to the Allen-T situation. I was wondering how so many Christians on here weren't taking issue with the concept that Jews can't achieve salvation without accepting Jesus. So I wasn't too surprised when the issue came up and exploded on here. I guess it was just an underlying unspoken issue all along (much like this one). I wasn't surprised that that issue happened, just surprised that it involved Allen-T.

Actually, the two are uncomparable in all honesty.  The dogma of Christianity is something entirely foreign to Judaism albeit with the same moral laws at its base.  I was not a party to Allen T's debate and therefore cannot comment.  Here it is a case of my being offended when someone, who has been on this forum for a very long time, and is, as I now see, a respected member of this forum call the Israeli Forces "occupiers".....to which I called on and demanded clearification.... 

The debates between Jew and Christian are theological ones and not comparable to this case of either honest misuse of words or something worse...  This is my opinion brother...

The point that I was making was not comparing Christianity to Islam. The point that I was making was that these were both issues that I was wondering about for a while about why nobody was making any noise about this for a while, and then finally someone did make noise about it. For a while, I was wondering how it was that nobody on here was questioning or suspecting a former muzzie on here. I'm not surprised in the least that this issue is exploding now. I'm just surprised that it hasn't happened sooner. I never objected or suspected anything. But I'm surprised that many of you didn't say anything about this sooner.

[kellymaureen]

Perhaps because people were giving the benefit of the doubt, but then red flags just kept popping up to the extent that you simply cant ignore them any longer.

[MarZutra]

Good point.  I was suspect at first, of course.  I believe she was banned no?  Apparently she has build up immense credit with some of the JTF members which is ok.  It is a personal choice.  I can imagine that there are JTF members that do not like me too much but I'm not going to lose sleep over it...but than again I never did call the IF occupiars.  I forgot to mention that Sarah said that most of the JTF members disagree with me and my views to which I responded to her that I very much doubt that considering I have actually read Rabbi Kahane's works which is more than I can say for her...   Sorry, after a long drawn out, dumbed down discussion, my patience is wearing thin...

[kellymaureen]

Well I agree with you Mar, guess that puts me in the unpopular club, which is great, I think the company there is fantastic

I would think that anyone who called the IDF occupiers would have little to no credibility here, but instead, excuse upon excuse is made...so if I understand this, anyone joining, saying they are leaving islam, and that they are a confused kid can get away with saying such a vile and untrue thing, amazing, I just told off a "respected" teacher, got right in his face and in NO UNCERTAIN terms(and quite a few certain ones) told him he was wrong, and exactly what I thought of him on a personal level....and that same behavior is excused here because...she didnt know any better...after a whole year here......amazing.

[Daniel]

I never gave Sarah the benefit of the doubt since I never had I doubt about her in the first place.

[kellymaureen]

Thats fantastic....it looks like this issue has split the forum, mainly in her favor, but still split it....hmmm I have to wonder if that was the intention of this self pity thread...and if it was, congratulations, worked very well indeed.

[MarZutra]

I never gave Sarah the benefit of the doubt since I never had I doubt about her in the first place.

That is ok.  I doubted her in the very beginning.  Than after many messages to me from her, which I sent one which is over a year old to Yacov identifying to him that I have never lied nor been deceitful to her but wished her success in leaving Islam, learning factual correctness and blessings be with her.... 

All was fine and dandy until I saw one of her posts identifying the IF as occupiers to which I questioned... than I get called names, insulted and the like...  whatever whatever.  As I said, I was only begging clearification and got my response and apparently much more... 

[Daniel]

Thats fantastic....it looks like this issue has split the forum, mainly in her favor, but still split it....hmmm I have to wonder if that was the intention of this self pity thread...and if it was, congratulations, worked very well indeed.

I don't know if this was her intention. I think that she sensed some people had a problem with her Muslim background and wanted to get a clearer idea of how many people on here had a problem with her, perhaps so she could better make up her mind whether or not she'd like to continue remaining on this forum.

[MarZutra]

Thats fantastic....it looks like this issue has split the forum, mainly in her favor, but still split it....hmmm I have to wonder if that was the intention of this self pity thread...and if it was, congratulations, worked very well indeed.

That was obviously the intention....imo.  Well, it worked...  I just cannot believe my questioning of this Muslohide's post lead to this...  tragic yet laughable...

[jsullivan]

I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam. 
 I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law.  I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them. 
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question

I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.

In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true?  Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them?  I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception.  I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace".  In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people.  But maybe not?  Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth?  In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam.  Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not?  I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself.  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya.  After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc.  I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.

Zeev, I am amazed to see you write that there are "branches of Islam" that are "legitimately a religion of peace". THERE IS ONLY ONE ISLAM AND THAT IS THE ISLAM OF THE KORAN AND THE HADITH, WHICH ARE NAZI BOOKS OF GENOCIDE. There are no "branches" of this evil terrorist religion that are peaceful. When you write that, you sound like George Bush, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. If someone was born a Muslim but rejects jihad (the Islamic war to conquer the world and exterminate all non-Muslims), then they are no longer a Muslim.
The fact that Sarah defends aspects of Islam is unfortunate. It shows that she remains confused and conflicted about her identity. But Sarah's presence in our movement and her open mind does NOT represent any "branch" of Islam. All of the "branches" of Islam would literally murder someone like Sarah.

[MarZutra]

There are Mooslims who practice Islam and Mooslims who do not.  This is very similar to Jews who follow Judaism and those who follow Deformed "Judaism"...which is "Jewish" Socialism...  Good post...

[kellymaureen]

perhaps so she could better make up her mind whether or not she'd like to continue remaining on this forum.

well we cant have that, how will intelligent, well read, educated adults KNOW that they are misunderstanding the koran.
no, I think it was more to get anyone who had doubts, or saw something else, to leave, which also worked, I do not need to hear any excuses, or hear any more defence of that vile hate filled war manual, I still support this cause, but not ANY defence of islam in ANY fashion, by ANY one, no excuses...there arent room for excuses here, this is a serious evil we are battling, and if its this easy to be sold on it, then we are in a WHOLE lot of trouble.  I am staying long enough to ask my next question, then I will wish you all good luck, if this is how things are going, you'll need it.

[MarZutra]

Yacov, that is very righteous of her, if it is true...  I have no doubt what you say is true...  About her, only time will tell.  From your lips to HaShem's ears.  If that is true though, why did she tell me she settled on her religion, implying that she was staying with Islam never mentioning Noahide?  If she settled on Noahide than she has no intention of converting to Judiasm?  Did she take you in?  

I just know what she posted and wrote to me and what I posted and replied.  This is what I'm going on....  

[kellymaureen]

Yacov, Ive always liked you, even though we butted heads on that one thread.....

but honestly, I could tell you that I am the princess of the world....and that doesnt make it true.  When she asked to come back, what on earth did you expect her to say, but there have been slip ups, like the koran thing, and the IDF occupier thing....keep watching, Ill stay in contact with a couple people here, so Ill find out eventually.

[MarZutra]

Yacov, I was displaying how there are people who fallow Islam as discribed in the Qur'an and Jews who fallow the demands of Judaism of the Torah and those who do not.  Of course you are correct, but I was clearifying the religious aspect for the readers...

[Dr. Dan]

Daniel, I dont give a rats arse, about what terms the media uses, I DONT accept them and never use them.  I got called to school because my kid told his teacher that the "palestinkians" never existed, nor did their country....so I marched in and asked that teacher what part of that he did not understand, and that I would be happy, to clarify it...he told me I shouldnt be teaching my kid things that were untrue, so I asked him to PROVE it to me, that that place always existed, he couldnt, he tried spouting that liberal media crap, and I shot him down at every turn.

When I know I am right, I will not back down....but I will not be staying to watch whats happened here.
Good luck to you, clarifying "occupiers", you know as well as I do what is meant when someone says that.

btw watch out because the FBI has a bad habit of getting involved in our people's business....

Yes, and Erica, Sarah, and myself are undercover FBI agents infiltrating this forum to bring you guys down! 

hey and don't forget Dannycookie also...

[kellymaureen]

Islam is only a religion.

I cant believe i have to say this here.....ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION

[Ralph1]

Kelly, I don't think you should leave. First of all Chaim will say that Islam defending should be allowed so that we can improve debating skills. Second, this is probably the most anti-Islamic forum on the internet. If this doesn't do it for you then what will?

[MarZutra]

Kelly, I don't think you should leave. First of all Chaim will say that Islam defending should be allowed so that we can improve debating skills. Second, this is probably the most anti-Islamic forum on the internet. If this doesn't do it for you then what will?

Actually, that is a good question/statement.  If it is ok to defend Islam then it must also be ok to defend Nazism without being banned.  In all honesty, I don't mind as I love educating these ignorami in open debate...as many of you have read and gained a few laughs...

[kellymaureen]

Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.

[Ralph1]

Yes I agree with you. There's no need to debate these evil scum. But, I do remember someone once asked a similar question and that was the response he gave.

[Kiwi]

Thank you Infidel

This kid is 15, observation here she is a KID!

Then perhaps she should not be debating with adults if she cannot handle the conversations.  I am sure there are boards for teenagers or children.

many of us here are teenagers and it is important for everyone to debate.

True but teenagers lack life experience. And when a kid is talking beyond their knowledge they are just trolls.

How can a teenager debate the raising of a family, holding down a full time job year after year, paying bills, owning a home, living a normal life outside the comforts of their parents house and warm fussy enviroment.

To walk in anothers shoes is to be there and do as they have done, not to guess and assume the know it all youth is right.

Its the same when Internet warriors proclaim the use of force, when they have never taken first blood.

Its called, common sense ...a 15 year old has little to add to an adult world, but learn from its elders.

Its called respect, which many of the internets teenagers lack in great amounts.

[MarZutra]

Why do I need to improve my debating skills, Ive read the koran, the haidth, the sura, every book Robert Spencer has written, Im perfectly capable of debating a muslim, and have on many occasions, however its a waste of time, either they tell me that Im the silly infidel and ive simply "misunderstood" or if they see I know too much call me an islamophobe and move on....I dont think debate will win the war on islam.
Anyway, I dont need to be on here to support the movement.

G-d love you.  You are funny.  Of course your debating skills are fabulous but you must remember that this entire silly thread wasn't because of you, but me.  You happened to have a similar experience with the same individual.  So if anyone will leave it will be me not you.  I'm not going anywhere because I support Jews, Jewry, Israel and righteous Gentiles.....  You do the same, so no need to get in a twist...  if you feel you've been wronged in anyway, have it out with that individual and be done with it.....  That's the way I feel.  One need never "sit idly by"... if you know what i mean?