Who Thinks I'm a lying, taqiyyah practicing muslim?

[Ehud]

I will say that on another thread that I said I was horrified after reading the koran, sura and haidth (and I think anyone on this forum would be if they were being honest) and Sarah, you DID tell me that I "must have misunderstood the koran if I was horrified" because it was nothing more than a "bunch of fables and stories"...which is completely untrue, it is a book of war, with the end result being dar al islam. 
 I read with perfect comprehension, AND have the benefit of 2 ex muslim friends who assure me that this nonsense about us silly infidels "misunderstanding" the koran is ridiculous, that its something that muslims will tell us to keep us off guard or make us doubt what we are reading.
Only YOU can decide what you are, what you believe, but I assure you that I understood perfectly what I read, and I am still horrified at what I read.
Islam is a blood cult, its followers are terrorists, and mohammad was a disgusting pedophile, war lord, and the goal of islam is to have the entire world run by muslims under sharia law.  I will stand by these statements and be willing to leave the forum if the majority of people disagree with them. 
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=9305.msg92707#msg92707
is the thread in question

I will say that I sincerely hope that you do leave islam fully, and realize your full potential, with all the rights and freedoms that you are entitled to.

In all fairness, is it taqiyya if the person saying the things about Islam actually believes those things to be true?  Is it taqiyya when a person is taught these things, and it is all he knows, and he simply repeats them?  I think taqiyya has to involve active deception, not passive deception.  I don't think it can properly be considered taqiyya considering the fact that she is 15 and is probably taught these things and even believes them to be true, things like "Islam is peace".  In order for it to be taqiyya, she needs to KNOW that it's false, and lie about it in order to trick people.  But maybe not?  Is it still taqiyya if that person is taught these things because the ones teaching him want to spread these lies, and the person accepts them and in turn spreads the falsehoods to other people, thinking that they are telling people the truth?  In effect, it has the same result, spreading falsehoods about Islam.  Does it matter whether the person KNOWS that they are engaging in taqiyya or not?  I think it does, which is why I don't believe that Sarah is engaging in it herself.  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she is simply repeating what she has been told, and she hasn't been told that what she is taught is taqiyya.  After all, there are some branches of Islam that teach that Islam is legitimately a religion of peace, etc.  I think Sarah belongs to that kind of branch of Islam.

[kellymaureen]

I stand by my comprehension of the koran, and do not accept anyone telling me its a peaceful book of fables.

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."

Yes, its taquiyya, it wouldnt be if they DIDNT believe it.  Its a concealment of the faith, or aspects of it.
“Kitman” is close to “taqiyya,” but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Muslim maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle,” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” When he adduces, in support of this doubtful proposition, the hadith in which Muhammad, returning home from one of his many battles, is reported to have said (as known from a chain of transmitters, or isnad), that he had returned from “the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad” and does not add what he also knows to be true, that this is a “weak” hadith, regarded by the most-respected muhaddithin as of doubtful authenticity, he is further practicing “kitman.”

From Jihadwatch

[Ultra Requete]

Some your points on meaning of Quran and hadiths are disturbing but I don't thing you're using taqiya on us; I know a few pisslamic excrements from ather forums ant they have their own style. I shud not use my Quran as toilet paper it was not good even in this role and now I'm to chepskate to waste more money on other one.

[kellymaureen]

I shud not use my Quran as toilet paper it was not good even in this role and now I'm to chepskate to waste more money on other one

I ordered my "free" koran from cair, which they so kindly sent to me.  We used it as kindling on July 4, my brother wanted to put it out errrr.." in an organic manner" so to speak, but said it would have been a shameful waste of beer

[MarZutra]

Yes Sarah, I just voted, to give you the number two.  After over a year on this site posting and conversing to others, and myself, I have many questions that have been answered considering your position.  I'll admit, sometimes you've been very good and open minded than on others, even in topics that have been beaten to death like a dead horse, you've come out openly and highly suspect in my opinion....  Logically, after such a lengthy time, I must ask questions and reserve my doubts.  Too logically I do not trust Muslims......for obvious and Qur'anically stated reasons.

A brilliant way to open this up for discussion to bring those of us who do have our reservations forward and create conflict.  A true dialectical tactic if I do say so myself....  I publically say I do have my reservations based on numerous posts and your personal private messages.   
 

[MarZutra]

That is such a terrible waste...Kelly....  The Qur'an environmentally friendly and are recyclable no?  You could have it framed next to the toilet...  "In case of emergency: break glass"    I'll admit that it may not be as good as the Ol-Charmin....   

[Ralph1]

I stand by my comprehension of the koran, and do not accept anyone telling me its a peaceful book of fables.

The word "al-Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing or disguising one's beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury." A one-word translation would be "Dissimulation."

Yes, its taquiyya, it wouldnt be if they DIDNT believe it.  Its a concealment of the faith, or aspects of it.
“Kitman” is close to “taqiyya,” but rather than outright dissimulation, it consists in telling only a part of the truth, with “mental reservation” justifying the omission of the rest. One example may suffice. When a Muslim maintains that “jihad” really means “a spiritual struggle,” and fails to add that this definition is a recent one in Islam (little more than a century old), he misleads by holding back, and is practicing “kitman.” When he adduces, in support of this doubtful proposition, the hadith in which Muhammad, returning home from one of his many battles, is reported to have said (as known from a chain of transmitters, or isnad), that he had returned from “the Lesser Jihad to the Greater Jihad” and does not add what he also knows to be true, that this is a “weak” hadith, regarded by the most-respected muhaddithin as of doubtful authenticity, he is further practicing “kitman.”

From Jihadwatch

So you're saying she's intentionally deceiving people? How do you know that? Maybe she herself has been brainwashed. I'd like to see those that criticize her be raised by Muslim parents and still be open-minded enough to come to a forum like this and support Israel.

[kellymaureen]

All muslims are brainwashed, I was simply posting the definition of taquiyya and kitman.

How do I know for certain, obviously I dont.  I am saying that I will not be told that I "misunderstand" the koran, thats what muslims will ALWAYS tell us.  My friend left islam when she was 15, was beaten by her father and brothers for refusing to wear a headscarf because she did not believe in what it stood for, nor did she believe ANY of the hogwash that is islam, she ran away at 17 when her father tried to marry her off to a 50 yr old man he owed a favor to.  I met her when she was 27, and that girl was still looking over her shoulder expecting for someone to find and kill her.

We can all believe what we like here, thats the beauty of freedom.....let islam take over and lets see what kind of freedom we will be enjoying

[mord]

Ireally think the only thing Sarah is doing is posting like everyone else

[kellymaureen]

And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.

I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult.  Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended???  If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.

Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF

[MarZutra]

I don't know if she's practicing taqiyyah or Kitman but I do know, from reading her posts that I hold my reservations period, end, full stop.  Am I supposed to believe and respect Muslims?  I think after reading the Qur'an/Hadith one can answer that themselves.

Oh before I retire for the evening, can anyone tell me where the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus is in the Torah?  What book is it in; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers or Deuteronomy?  As well information on the debate by the Jews that couldn't settle on the number of sleepers  in the cave or, like the Qur'an, if a dog, cat or camel should be included?  

[Ralph1]

Well that Norman fellow was certainly someone who wasn't practicing taqiyya: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3413.15;wap2

[MarZutra]

Sarah/Aisha I think you know my opinions and views from the numerous messages you have written me personally over the past year +.  I do hope you get out of that death cult and too wish you'd entertain some of the factual correctness I have presented, research yourself and bed them in your memory as Islam is NO place for a woman...

[nessuno]

Well that Norman fellow was certainly someone who wasn't practicing taqiyya: http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=3413.15;wap2

Why is Norman not listed as a member?  Was he banned?

[New Yorker]

I actually have no idea what this thread is about. Huh? Whuh? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss.  

[Ralph1]

Why is Norman not listed as a member?  Was he banned?

I don't know. I got here way after he left.

[Eliezer Ben Avraham]

I actually have no idea what this thread is about. Huh? Whuh? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. 

Sarah used to be a Muslim and she wants to know whether we think she is no longer a muslim or if she is just lying to us.

[MarZutra]

And telling me that I misunderstood the koran because I know it is evil and a book of war and I was horrified by reading it.

I do not think that this forum is the place to be defending ANY aspects of that vile, ugly cult.  Is there even one person here who thinks that there is anything in the koran, haidth or sura that can in ANY possible way be defended???  If people here think that islam, muslims, the koran, haidth, or sura are defensable, then I am obviously in the wrong place, I was looking for a forum that deplored islam and muslims AND supported the civilized non muslim world, especially Israel.

Maybe I just found my next question for ask JTF

You make a very good point....

[Kiwi]

I actually have no idea what this thread is about. Huh? Whuh? Ah, sometimes ignorance is bliss. 

Sarah used to be a Muslim and she wants to know whether we think she is no longer a muslim or if she is just lying to us.

Ok thats the only post I understand.

Theres no way she can prove anything but if she still thinks the religion in any postive terms as meant to be an ex - muslim, the she is a lier.

You don't leave a religion lighty.

You leave it because you can't see any good in it, theres no postive left.

[New Yorker]

Sarahs been here more than a year, and she's a great JTF'er. An ex-muslim? What did you convert to Sarah? Christianity?

[Mishmaat]

I think very highly of you Sarah and I hope you discard of Islam completely.

[kellymaureen]

Thank you Infidel

No ex muslim would ever ever defend ANY aspect of islam, there are penalties for leaving, in western countries the "death" penalty isnt practiced too much (or not that we hear of)  but its not something that you leave lightly or halfway.

[mosquewatch]

Sarah / Aisha/ Bill Gates, what ever your real name is. I don't know you well enough too make a call on this. You seem too be very popular on JTF. All I can say is mohammed was a violent man and islam is not a religion but a cult.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I am not going to vote (YET), but I have to agree with Kellymaureen completely. You just lost a lot of trust with us, Sarah, and making a whiny thread does not help your case at all. You can't take back what you said about Islam being misunderstood, but your subsequent postings are only doing further damage to your credibility.

Maybe you AREN'T deliberately engaging in taqqiyah, but the fact that after nearly a year here you would make such a statement tells me that everything Chaim has said has gone in one ear, out the other. Shame, shame. 

And to think how much of a chance I gave you and how kind I was. The whole entire forum has bent over backwards for you since day one. I even stuck by you when you got a good member (Scotch) banned for no reason at all. I don't think you can do anything to fix stuff now.

[kellymaureen]

Thanks Yacov, but really I cant stand to see islam defended in any way, especially on THIS forum of all places.  Islam and muslims are deplorable, its a vile blood cult, indefensable in my opinion.

At least I have my next ask JTF question, Im curious to see what the answer will be...."should islam be allowed to be defeneded in ANY way and by ANY person on this forum"  better yet, to see if Chaim thinks that there IS any defense of any aspect of islam.

Ill know after that.