JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The Shadow on November 29, 2007, 01:04:13 AM
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
2)I don't agree for putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened! Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
3) I have some other large Philosophical issues where I totally disagree with Chaim's belief system, or torah, but I dont want to go into it here.
Putting all these things aside, I would throw my vote in for Chaim.
I know the Jews would be better off if Chaim was Prime Minister of Israel. I do have some serious reservations, however, I think I could put them aside.
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Are you Jewish?
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
2) I don't agree with putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened! Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
1) Women's right to choose has already done its dirty work.
2) Absolutely.
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
2)I don't agree for putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened! Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
(1) It is inconceivable to me that a woman's right to decide that a child would be inconvenient would outweigh a child's right to life. According to abortion proponents, a child 30 seconds before birth can be executed, but not a child 30 seconds after birth. No one doubts a "fetus" is a child 30 seconds before birth...but do you think man (or woman) can say "on day X it is a fetus but on day X+1 it is a child"? No. Abortion is one of the most hideous sins...look what it has done to America.
(2) I heard a lawyer once say that rape is both the most under-reported and the most over-reported crime. I don't know how you weed out false reports except through the justice system. I don't have a problem with sentencing rapists to life without parole...indeed, I think this should be done for any serious sex offender, such as child molesters, because all the evidence shows that there is NO CURE...once someone is wired to molest children, they will always have the urge to molest children.
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
I forgot to add...I don't agree with Chaim on everything, either. But JTF is very much a "big tent" movement. We have Jews, Serbs, Indians, Evangelical Christians, Protestants, Italian-Americans, conservatives, etc. I wouldn't expect anyone to agree 100% with Chaim and I don't think he thinks everyone in the movement does...for me, JTF's plan to saving America and Israel makes sense, I admire Chaim and the late Rabbi Kahane, and that's why I'm here.
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There are issues where I differ with Chaim, but certainly not the ones you speak of, Shadow.
1: What isn't offensive to you about murdering a little child because you don't want another mouth to feed or to lose your "independence"? This isn't a Torah issue. It is not even a religious issue. It's a basic human decency issue.
2: False-rape stories are extremely rare. False-rape claims where the man in question did not even have sex with the woman are essentially nonexistent. Rape convictions without the presence of the suspect's semen AND obvious trauma are very rare. I think our society is far too kind to rapists, not the other way around. And yes--I believe every rape case deserves the death penalty.
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
2)I don't agree for putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened! Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
3) I have some other large Philosophical issues where I totally disagree with Chaim's belief system, or torah, but I dont want to go into it here.
Putting all these things aside, I would throw my vote in for Chaim.
I know the Jews would be better off if Chaim was Prime Minister of Israel. I do have some serious reservations, however, I think I could put them aside.
So it is okay for a Woman for Murder her child?? A woman's right to kill?? that is the only right that is up for debate. In Torah it says that only in the life of the Mother. An abortion can be performed but each limb has to be cut off and removed from the womb one at a time. Over Turn Roe V Wade
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Those are legit differences with Chaim. However, you probably agree that late and partial term abortions are murder.
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Option #2 makes sense, it would seem that suspicion should not be enough, it must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. My standards of evidence are a little bit higher than some of the others, and I surely wouldn't tolerate inaccurate executions.
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I don't think I remembered correctly, but did Chaim say righteous gentiles have to return to Israel or stay in America? I think he said righteous gentiles can stay in America and support Israel and the Jews.
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1. Abortion is only permitted when a mother's life is in danger. In my opinion, one can debate on danger to one's life might be. Anyway, my point is that it shoudln't be a matter of choice..that's messed up..really messed up to make it a choice. In fact, Gd forbid if a woman had to abort a fetus, it should be because she had no choice but to do it.
2. I think brutal rape like from a serial rapist should warrant the death penalty. Acquaintence rape is the one I get concerned with because there are those who try to exploit it. And wiht teh justice system we have today, someone innocent can be screwed over...
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1. Abortion is only permitted when a mother's life is in danger. In my opinion, one can debate on danger to one's life might be. Anyway, my point is that it shoudln't be a matter of choice..that's messed up..really messed up to make it a choice. In fact, Gd forbid if a woman had to abort a fetus, it should be because she had no choice but to do it.
2. I think brutal rape like from a serial rapist should warrant the death penalty. Acquaintence rape is the one I get concerned with because there are those who try to exploit it. And wiht teh justice system we have today, someone innocent can be screwed over...
I definitely agree on number 2. Some innocent do get screwed over.
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Mills wrote this, about one Mother:
"Once again, I recall that article about the woman who gave birth to her daughter while in Auschwitz
She was repeatedly adviced to abort her ferus or else the guards would kill her, getting an abortion could have helped her survived. Nevertheless, she did not get an abortion and her daughter was born right there,they both survived. If this poor woman had her daughter IN a concentration camp under those terible conditions NO woman could tell me that having their child is too "hard" for them."
And I find it just purely,
immensely, giganticaly convincing,
and beautiful, especially because
it happened in the most
horrible conditions,
this MOTHER is DEFINITELY
an EXAMPLE for every single
Mother on earth.
:)
Say NO to abortion/foetus-mass-murdering !!!
O0
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
2)I don't agree for putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened! Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
(1) It is inconceivable to me that a woman's right to decide that a child would be inconvenient would outweigh a child's right to life. According to abortion proponents, a child 30 seconds before birth can be executed, but not a child 30 seconds after birth. No one doubts a "fetus" is a child 30 seconds before birth...but do you think man (or woman) can say "on day X it is a fetus but on day X+1 it is a child"? No. Abortion is one of the most hideous sins...look what it has done to America.
(2) I heard a lawyer once say that rape is both the most under-reported and the most over-reported crime. I don't know how you weed out false reports except through the justice system. I don't have a problem with sentencing rapists to life without parole...indeed, I think this should be done for any serious sex offender, such as child molesters, because all the evidence shows that there is NO CURE...once someone is wired to molest children, they will always have the urge to molest children.
Regarding abortion, I consider it is even worse that other forms of murder.
Regarding death penalty, in case it is used, it must be to punish the criminal for what he has already done. Not to prevent re-offense. I don't agree with the idea of executing someone just because he has evil urges and can't be cured. If he deserves execution, then execute him for he what he did! If he deserves jail, take him to jail then. If he cannot be cured, let him spend the rest of his life in jail after the condemn, just for security.
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False-rape stories are extremely rare. False-rape claims where the man in question did not even have sex with the woman are essentially nonexistent. Rape convictions without the presence of the suspect's semen AND obvious trauma are very rare. I think our society is far too kind to rapists, not the other way around. And yes--I believe every rape case deserves the death penalty.
You're a feminist.
Plain and simple.
And you're completely insane as well. You're saying (with your profound Mexican intellect) that even when a woman falsely accuses a man of rape (for revenge, etc.), and these accusations lead to a conviction, that the man should be put to death?!
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False-rape stories are extremely rare. False-rape claims where the man in question did not even have sex with the woman are essentially nonexistent. Rape convictions without the presence of the suspect's semen AND obvious trauma are very rare. I think our society is far too kind to rapists, not the other way around. And yes--I believe every rape case deserves the death penalty.
You're a feminist.
Plain and simple.
And you're completely insane as well. You're saying (with your profound Mexican intellect) that even when a woman falsely accuses a man of rape (for revenge, etc.), and these accusations lead to a conviction, that the man should be put to death?!
Although only 1% of rape accusations may be false or 'buyers remorse' cases, that's still too many innocent men in jail. An automatic death sentance would result in innocent deaths and that's murder under Torah law.
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Most abortions i hear about are teen black girls, who wants that, let them have an abortion.
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You're a feminist.
Plain and simple.
And you're completely insane as well. You're saying (with your profound Mexican intellect) that even when a woman falsely accuses a man of rape (for revenge, etc.), and these accusations lead to a conviction, that the man should be put to death?!
And you are a bipolar racist.
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You're a feminist.
Plain and simple.
And you're completely insane as well. You're saying (with your profound Mexican intellect) that even when a woman falsely accuses a man of rape (for revenge, etc.), and these accusations lead to a conviction, that the man should be put to death?!
The purpose of a trial by jury of one's peers is to determine whether or not the woman's claims are true. For example, in the case of that filthy slut of a stripper, there was no DNA evidence to be found, no traces of semen, and the woman finally said she wasn't even sure of being penetrated. Furthermore, one of the students was able to prove, through cell phone records that he was not even there was the alleged "rape" took place.
So criticizing Chaimfan for being a "feminist" and making fun of his ethnicity is totally uncalled for.
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You can bet the Chaim Fan, tuchas licker, wouldn't want his assssssssssss fried for a false rape charge and conviction. He's ok with it for other guys. hahahaha
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You can bet the Chaim Fan, tuchas licker, wouldn't want his assssssssssss fried for a false rape charge and conviction. He's ok with it for other guys. hahahaha
???
keep it civil guys
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You can bet the Chaim Fan, tuchas licker, wouldn't want his assssssssssss fried for a false rape charge and conviction. He's ok with it for other guys. hahahaha
That was also uncalled for.
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It's almost impossible to carry out a death sentence for murder today let alone rape. People who are called to answer for crimes such as rape need to be sentenced on strong unshakable evidence. The books are filled with people who were convicted and served time on bad evidence and lies. Rape is not a capital offense. It should be punished by long jail time and nothing more .
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It's almost impossible to carry out a death sentence for murder today let alone rape. People who are called to answer for crimes such as rape need to be sentenced on strong unshakable evidence. The books are filled with people who were convicted and served time on bad evidence and lies. Rape is not a capital offense. It should be punished by long jail time and nothing more .
When there is DNA evidense and no question of consent as in the case of a child rape......yeah, death!
But where it's two adults and there's no bruises or marks ????????
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It's almost impossible to carry out a death sentence for murder today let alone rape. People who are called to answer for crimes such as rape need to be sentenced on strong unshakable evidence. The books are filled with people who were convicted and served time on bad evidence and lies. Rape is not a capital offense. It should be punished by long jail time and nothing more .
When there is DNA evidense and no question of consent as in the case of a child rape......yeah, death!
But where it's two adults and there's no bruises or marks ????????
True you make a good point about the child rape. That is on another more depraved level and could justify a death sentence.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
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I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
You've obviously never heard of Israeli politics. How do you think the leftists blackmail people? They just threaten to have a woman (usually a former employee) come out with a story - and even if they can't prove a damn thing, it can still ruin the guy's career. Trust me, when Chaim IY"H makes it to Israel and is running for (or already is in) Knesset, there will be at least one woman who'll come out and say he sexually harassed and/or raped her.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
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You can bet the Chaim Fan, tuchas licker, wouldn't want his assssssssssss fried for a false rape charge and conviction. He's ok with it for other guys. hahahaha
Strong words for a baby-butcher. ;)
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
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Looks like I'm the only person who agrees with Chaim then--so be it. I think rape is a worse crime than murder, myself. I would be willing to bet good money that the number of men in prison right now on false rape charges in America can be counted on half of one hand, if it's that high. It's hard enough to get a conviction for real rape when the suspect's semen is present and woman's vagina is obviously torn and she is bloody and bruised--it's vastly more common for slimeball attorneys to convince juries that the poor victim "wanted it".
As for all the guys here who think rape is no big deal and is being overly punished--I invite them to spend the night with Bubba in jail. :)
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
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Newman, I understand your POV, but I seriously doubt aborting a rape-baby will help a rape victim feel anything more than a very fleeting relief. The odds are she will regret this later in a huge way.
I have yet to meet ONE proponent of abortion as a means to help rape victims who believes rapists should be executed or thrown in prison forever. Not ONE.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
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Newman, I understand your POV, but I seriously doubt aborting a rape-baby will help a rape victim feel anything more than a very fleeting relief. The odds are she will regret this later in a huge way.
I have yet to meet ONE proponent of abortion as a means to help rape victims who believes rapists should be executed or thrown in prison forever. Not ONE.
I know heaps.
I've seen anti-abortion activists shouting abuse at a 14 year old girl (who was raped) outside a clinic. They're scum.
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Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
Amen
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?
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According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
How can a pregnancy make someone suicidal? That sounds like the typical tripe baby-butcher advocates invent to scare us into supporting infanticide.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?
Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?
Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?
How is she risking her life? Unless the baby itself is going to kill her, abortion is completely out of the question.
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Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?
Newman, I don't want to diss you, but these arguments are rather silly. I would expect this on a feminazi forum, not from someone as hardcore-right as I know you are. I really think you should spend less time listening to black- and Muslim-worshipping feminazis.
The only way to heal the trauma of rape for these poor victims will be when society begins hanging these bastards from their nuts.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?
Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?
How is she risking her life? Unless the baby itself is going to kill her, abortion is completely out of the question.
Women die in childbirth all the time. It might be one in 1,000 but it's still a risk. Why should a rape victim endure that risk? And you still have not addressed the question of phsycological trauma or possibility of suicide.
Secondly, you assume that banning abortion will end abortion. It won't. They'll go to Canada or Mexico or a backyard operator if they're determined to get one.
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I disagree with Chaim on fundamental issues but still support JTF.
1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
2)I don't agree for putting a man to death for rape, unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that it happened! Chaim is a little too quick to pull the switch on the guy. I'm sure there are women out there, who would like to see some previous boyfriends expunged, and would concoct a rape story
3) I have some other large Philosophical issues where I totally disagree with Chaim's belief system, or torah, but I dont want to go into it here.
Putting all these things aside, I would throw my vote in for Chaim.
I know the Jews would be better off if Chaim was Prime Minister of Israel. I do have some serious reservations, however, I think I could put them aside.
You and I think a lot alike, along with Merkava.
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Newman, by this logic every single woman should abort because pregnancy might end in death. I myself DO believe in overpopulation and am not terribly fond of pregnancy, but this is just way too big of a stretch.
As to the second point, SOME women will seek illegal abortions. I don't think most people will go through the trouble.
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Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?
Newman, I don't want to diss you, but these arguments are rather silly. I would expect this on a feminazi forum, not from someone as hardcore-right as I know you are. I really think you should spend less time listening to black- and Muslim-worshipping feminazis.
The only way to heal the trauma of rape for these poor victims will be when society begins hanging these bastards from their nuts.
Until such time as you graduate as a phsycologist, you're not in a position to say.
I didn't say this would be the case 100% of the time. Just in SOME cases.
Answer this:
If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
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Newman, by this logic every single woman should abort because pregnancy might end in death. I myself DO believe in overpopulation and am not terribly fond of pregnancy, but this is just way too big of a stretch.
As to the second point, SOME women will seek illegal abortions. I don't think most people will go through the trouble.
How do you know. When abortions were illegal there were no records kept of abortions. Women also died from backyard or self attempts.
Irish girls go to other EU countries for them all the time.
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As I've gotten older, I've become more pro-life.
But if I was ever raped, I would not want that rapists child growing inside me. Now I've read of cases where surgery has been done on fetuses. So I would think and hope that in the future, doctors could remove the fetus from the woman (without killing it) and have it gestate someplace else. That would make everyone happy if such a thing could ever happen.
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1) I totally disagree with the Torah postion on abortion. I believe in woman's right to choose.
The torah does not make any direct commands about abortion, however, it does prohibit murder. Where the debate comes into place is when to declare a fetus a human being. Many scholars believe this is after 40 days of inception, however, if it is before the 40 days of inception it is still not right to kill it.
Speaking on part of myself and not JTF, sometimes abortion is the lesser of two evils and needs to be done. It is still a disgusting thing, however, there are many scenarios such as saving the mother's life that sometimes justify it. Out of all the scenarios that justify or require an abortion, choice should not be the reason. Arbitrarily aborting a fetus based on choice alone is simply murder.
If a phsyciatrist testifies that a rape victim will suffer mental trauma by continuing a pregnancy it should be allowed.
I don't think so...
A 15 year old rape victim can't dispose of somehing the size of an orange pip to avoid years of therapy, trauma and grief????
Correct. Because that "something the size of an orange pip" is a human life.
According to Rabbi Blech, before 40 days gestation it's a half-life. The mother is a full life and if the pregnancy will make her suicidal, her life takes preference.
When would the pregnancy make her suicidal?
Every kick, cramp and movement would be a reminder of the rape trauma. Add the hormonal changes to the equation and it's entirely possible. Plus there is always some risk of death with any child birth. Why should a girl risk her life carrying/bearing a child that is the result of rape?
How is she risking her life? Unless the baby itself is going to kill her, abortion is completely out of the question.
Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?
With that logic, Women should never have children. It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?
And you still have not addressed the question of phsycological trauma or possibility of suicide.
Like I said, unless the baby itself is going to kill her...
Secondly, you assume that banning abortion will end abortion. It won't. They'll go to Canada or Mexico or a backyard operator if they're determined to get one.
If they're that intent on murdering an innocent child - then obviously we can't do anything about it. But it should certainly not (CV"S) be legal.
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I think in this country, abortion rules shoudl not be up to politicians, but between the mother and maybe the father and the medical doctor. However, the medical doctor has to be bound by proper eithics...and maybe throwing in a spiritual leader in the mix may help in helping the mother make the proper and most ethical decision.
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Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?
With that logic, Women should never have children. It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?
[[/quote]
A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.
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Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?
With that logic, Women should never have children. It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?
[
A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.
[/quote]
A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.
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Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?
With that logic, Women should never have children. It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?
[
A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.
A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.
[/quote]
When it's an innocent rape victim facing that chance I say it is.
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Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?
With that logic, Women should never have children. It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?
[
A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.
A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.
[/quote]
.1% is not relevant, the threat has to be imminent and obvious. There is something special that happens in those .1% and the other 99.9% are fine
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Looks like I'm the only person who agrees with Chaim then--so be it. I think rape is a worse crime than murder, myself. I would be willing to bet good money that the number of men in prison right now on false rape charges in America can be counted on half of one hand, if it's that high. It's hard enough to get a conviction for real rape when the suspect's semen is present and woman's vagina is obviously torn and she is bloody and bruised--it's vastly more common for slimeball attorneys to convince juries that the poor victim "wanted it".
As for all the guys here who think rape is no big deal and is being overly punished--I invite them to spend the night with Bubba in jail. :)
I can't agree with you that rape is a worse crime than murder. The murder victims life is cut short what could be worse than that. In the case of rape their is always the chance that the victim could regain a normal life to some extent. I also can't agree that the people sent to jail on false charges in America is able to be counted on one hand. I am sure the number goes into the thousands each year. G-d forbid a person was falsely accused of this crime the time, money and personal reputation lost is almost impossible to regain. If sent to jail chances are they would be stuck there for the duration of the sentence unless they were very wealthy. Rape is a serious crime and should be punished by a very long sentence however to expect people to be put to death is a bit unrealistic unless there were extenuating circumstances that warranted it.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.
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Women die in childbirth all the time. . Why should a rape victim endure that risk?
With that logic, Women should never have children. It might be one in 1,000, but it's still a risk, right?
[
A woman planning a pregnancy accepts that risk and takes the risk volluntarily. A rape victim does not.
A one in 1,000 risk is still not a reason to kill a baby, though.
When it's an innocent rape victim facing that chance I say it is.
[/quote]
Well then I guess we just have to respectfully disagree here.
Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
I will ask my Rav - but I'm pretty sure, with that high of a chance, then the baby would be considered a Rodef, and an abortion would be permissible. But I'm not a Rabbi.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.
I agree.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.
I agree.
What about a 25% chance of death?
(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
Exactly! It has to be 50% or more.
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
Exactly! It has to be 50% or more.
Then I repeat:
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
Almost all pregnancies have a risk to them. I am sure even people in the best of health have a percentage of risk.
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
Almost all pregnancies have a risk to them. I am sure even people in the best of health have a percentage of risk.
That's no answer.
I ask again (and read it properly):
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
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It has to be over 50%. I also disagree with Chaim on some issues but I still support the general message.
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
Almost all pregnancies have a risk to them. I am sure even people in the best of health have a percentage of risk.
That's no answer.
I ask again (and read it properly):
Over 50%?
So a woman with a 40% chance of death (thats 2 chances in 5!) must risk death (and therefore abandoning her other children) for the sake of something the size of a grape seed with an undeveloped brain???
That's nuts!
Who are you to make such a ruling?
It's not that I want to make a ruling however below 50 or even 40% the reason for getting an abortion becomes less for the health of the mother and more other reasons. In all honesty people getting this have to live with their actions if they can justify the percentages its all good for me. As I said two forms of abortion bother me late term and abortion as a form of contraception. For me I think abortion done correctly ( very early )is better that unwanted or uncared for children.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
if it were 50%, mother and father's choice.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.
I agree.
What about a 25% chance of death?
(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)
25% is still high, it shoudl be mother and father's choice.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.
I agree.
What about a 25% chance of death?
(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)
25% is still high, it shoudl be mother and father's choice.
Only the patient's (mother's) wishes can be considered in the West. To depend on the wishes of a third party when somebody else's life is at risk violates every medical convention in the civilised world.
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my personal controversy on abortion is what about mental health? What if the fetus is not viable and is missing one too many chromosomes and will be born terribly abnormal?
What if it were one of your daughters, Gd forbid. Or your sister, Gd forbid?
Or what if it was you and your mother, Gd forbid, considered aborting you...or your own child that you decided to keep?
So stop eating your soup with a fork! It's not a black and white issue...it takes a lot of thought and every circumstance is different. No one should just go and get abortions just for the hell of it...it requires tons of counciling by loved ones, by medical doctors, and spiritual religious people close with the family. Abortions should be out of the hands of politicians..whether it is a religious right winged person or a liberal left winged person. Bottom line, each and every fetus shoudl be seen like almost life and pretty much life...and great care needs to be taken on how such an unborn being shoudl be treated...The problem that we have in the media today is that they make it like the fetus isn't really life..and the thing is it is really life...sort of...so the decision of getting abortions should not be an easy decision...and shoudl be a very painful decision to make. Furthermore, if we view fetuses like they are practically human beings sort of, and people develop a conscience about it, maybe more will act responsibly when it comes down to the making of fetuses...
It's not about making abortions illegal that will make society better. It's cleaning up our society to the point of viewing fetuses as if they were a type of life and working on changing the way people view sex and sexual relationships.
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Why can nobody answer this question..................If 3 Doctors determine that due to medical circumstances there is a 50% chance of death for the mother. Yes or no to an abortion?
In a case like that I could not fault a woman for going ahead with an abortion. It's people who use abortion as a form of contraception who are the problem.
I agree.
What about a 25% chance of death?
(see the slippery pole you get on when trying to legislate this sort of thing?)
25% is still high, it shoudl be mother and father's choice.
Only the patient's (mother's) wishes can be considered in the West. To depend on the wishes of a third party when somebody else's life is at risk violates every medical convention in the civilised world.
Actually you're right..it shoudl be more the mother's choice when it is a life and death situation...not the father..my bad.
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You raise a whole new question.
What about a feotus that will be (no question) a hopelessly retrarded, mongoloid?
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Newman, even though I personally don't enjoy the miracle of pregnancy, and seek to only adopt, and feel we are overpopulated, I do not advocate that nobody ever has kids.
That's the only logical way to solve forever the threat that 25% of pregnancies would end in death, which is so not true.
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Newman, even though I personally don't enjoy the miracle of pregnancy, and seek to only adopt, and feel we are overpopulated, I do not advocate that nobody ever has kids.
That's the only logical way to solve forever the threat that 25% of pregnancies would end in death, which is so not true.
You're missing the point. I advocate choice.
I used the example of a particular one-off instance where there was a 25% chance of death. It happens often, though 999 out of 1,000 pregnancies are trouble free.
If a woman wants to take that risk, that's her own affair. Just like you riding a motorcycle without a helmut........your choice.
But..............the point is nobody should be compelled to take a risk if they do not wish to.
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Rape pregnancies are not more likely to result in death than normal ones.
However, in America 999 out of 1000 pregnancies are not due to rape!
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Rape pregnancies are not more likely to result in death than normal ones.
However, in America 999 out of 1000 pregnancies are not due to rape!
You're doing an Erica and jumbling the points.
The rape question was one of phsycological harm. It won't apply to ALL victims but will apply to some. Secondly while only 1 in 1000 pregnancies may result in death or injury, a consenting person is free to take that small risk as most of the human race does. But why should a (NON-consenting) rape victim be forced to take even that risk. It wasn't her choice to get impregnated.
Re planned pregnancies:
The question was what % physical risk to the individual mother (25%, 50%, 75% etc) due to medical complication constitutes grounds for abortion? People are guessing at 50+% risk of death but no firm answers so far.
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Newman: Isn't he annoying!
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בס''ד
1. Earlier in this thread, there was a post disparaging CF's "profound Mexican intellect". I thought that post was way out of line. CF is far more educated, far more intelligent and far more moral than 99% of the white Anglos that I know. He writes far better than the vast majority of white Anglo posters on the internet. In fact, he is better informed and his writing skills are superior to most Jewish posters on the internet. So to attack his intellect is absurd. If anything, CF is living proof that JTF is right when we assert that Mexicans, blacks or any group could be well-educated and intelligent if only they had the discipline to learn. CF is a perfect example of how our problem with certain groups is cultural and not genetic. CF is extremely intelligent.
Hail Columbia, who is also of Hispanic descent, is also extremely intelligent, well-educated and righteous. Most white Anglos WISH they had the education, knowledge, writing skills and morals of CF and Hail Columbia.
2. If Jews had allowed women to abort their babies when raped, most European-looking Jews would not be around today. Many Jews have light skin color and other northern European features because Jewish women were frequently raped during the crusades, inquisitions and pogroms of Europe. The Rabbis ruled that we are not permitted to blame the innocent baby for the evil actions of the rapist. And the Rabbis also ruled that the baby is Jewish because the mother is Jewish.
I always become suspicious when men become the most fervert supporters of a woman's "right to choose (to murder her baby)." Could it be that many of these men just want to justify abortion so that if they fornicate, they will be able to "dispose" of the inconvenient consequences?
3. If we cannot impose the death penalty on violent and brutal rapists because someone innocent may be convicted, then we cannot impose the death penalty on murderers either. Because it is theoretically possible that an innocent person can be convicted of murder. The standard of proof for murder and rape is the same: proof beyond a reasonable doubt. The arguments made here against the death penalty are precisely those made by leftists.
The Torah - which is G-d's law - does impose the death penalty for murdering an innocent person, and for brutal and violent rape.
As far as people being falsely accused, I am being accused right now on two new Peace Now Hebrew videos of being a serial rapist. And on other Peace Now videos, I am being called a mass murderer. But that does not change the fact that a REAL murderer and a REAL violent and brutal rapist deserves to be put to death.
The vast majority of convicted murderers and convicted rapists are black males. Since I had the "honor" of spending five and a half years in prison with thousands of them, I can tell that I doubt that any of the ones that I met and lived with are innocent despite their swearing in court that they had been "framed" by a "racist system".
4. I am glad this thread was started. JTF is not a cult and we do have differences of opinion in our movement. JTF is a great experiment: can people from so many different backgrounds with so many different views work together to make this a better world? I think we can and I think as JTF grows, thank G-d, we are proving it every day.
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Dear Chairman:
I dont agree with you, abortion is not murder. I dont agree with Torah law. And if you ever came to power I would hope you wouldn;t outlaw abortion. I agree with you on oil, arabs, blacks and immigration. And I would vote for you in hearbeat if you ran for any kind of office. I believe it would be good for the Jewish people. We have big differences on fundamental issues but I'm with you anyway.
Sincerely,
The Shadow
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Great post, Chaim. Very logical.
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You cannot legislate for/against personal morality.
While a Jew should be observant, It's not my place or the state's place to compell him to be so.
In that vane.............
While perhaps women should not abort, I refuse to ever tell one what she can do with her body. I cannot get pregnant by any means so I've no right to. In the case of a rape victim who has ALREADY had control of her body taken from her once, I would never advocate the state doing it to her a second time.
I hear Rabbis claim that an abortion IS allowed if the mother's life is in danger. Well and good. But nobody can define what that entails or who makes that determination. A doctor? 3 doctors? A tribunal? A rabbi? And what level of risk? 100%? 50%? or 10%? What about a 50% chance of suicide in the case of a rape victim?
Until ALL the above questions (and others) have a definite answer, we cannot outlaw abortion.
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If Israel had not aborted 2 million babies, you'd have a much stronger position right now. 8 million Jews vs 1 million Arab Israelis.
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If Israel had not aborted 2 million babies, you'd have a much stronger position right now. 8 million Jews vs 1 million Arab Israelis.
True, but gentile America is not in the same position.
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I really do have a problem with Chaim calling abortion murder. Just because Chaim says it, doesn't make it so. Plenty of people think otherwise. Thats one of the fears I have of people who say those things reaching positions of power. I don't want Chaim dictating his abortion morals to me and shoving it down my throat
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I really do have a problem with Chaim calling abortion murder. Just because Chaim says it, doesn't make it so. Plenty of people think otherwise. Thats one of the fears I have of people who say those things reaching positions of power. I don't want Chaim dictating his abortion morals to me and shoving it down my throat
Are you planning on having an abortion any time soon?
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Great Post, Chaim! O0
You are right we need to stop this supposed nazi genetic assumption for intelligence, education etc. Almost all or at least most Scientific studies have shown that this is a cultural issue and not genetic. If we believe in this genetic assumption we are slowly falling into the footsteps of nazis and deeming people "untermensch" and might as well be a nazi hitlerian eugenicist. Anyways, great post as usual Chaim.
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Chaim
About abortions, I hear you...you're arguement is very logical. I don't completely agree because to me, it's not black and white in today's time..and unfortunately, we are living in evil times influenced by evil-doers..so maybe it's just my head...
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Chaim and Newman make excellent points, as does Dr. Dan.
Now I would like to share with you all a personal experience I had when I went to the hospital almost two years ago for a very nasty stomach bug. I had thrown up several times that morning and got sick yet again in the waiting room of the ER. By this time, I was cold, my body ached, and I was still nauseous.
However, the nurse practitioner first wanted to get a blood sample from me. He poked and poked to no avail, as my veins were basically closed. And there was no other type of body fluid to be had either. I begged him for the IV drip with anti-nausea medication but he refused for fear that I might be pregnant. When I tried telling him there was no way I could be pregnant, he said he didn't need to know the details of my personal life. How's that for an affirmative action experience?
Now what I want to know is, what if I had died before getting treatment. The hospital would have had a dead woman, and one (hypothetically) dead unborn baby. That doesn't sound pro-life to me at all.
Anyway, the nurse practitioner tried poking me for blood again half an hour later and still no luck. So he had his nurse supervisor try, and she finally had to settle for getting a small amount of blood from a vein in my left hand. Even that was difficult, as she had to squeeze my hand to get the blood.
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What race were those creatures in the hospital?
What do you think?
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If Israel had not aborted 2 million babies, you'd have a much stronger position right now. 8 million Jews vs 1 million Arab Israelis.
Chaim's position on abortion is the correct one from a moral and religious point of view. It may also be the right one for a country such as Israel and its Jewish people who are a people with strong family values. Here in America today this is not the case. Family structures are not what they were 50 years ago. How many unwanted children do we want the state to foot the bill for. Sadly some of the unwanted children live in the system and become very maladjusted because of abuse and neglect. I believe its far worse to have a child live a life of neglect and abuse because its unwanted. I would really like to see laws put in place that would mandate that abortions would only be legal in the very early stages of a pregnancy. Late term abortion is an evil practice and is nothing less than murder. I also feel that people that come in time and time again for this procedure are using this as a form of contraception and should not have this option open to them endless times. The law needs to be modified here in America however to make abortion totally illegal would be a great disservice to society as we have it today.
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My viewpoint is, and this may be extreme, is that if anyone executes an innocent person, every single person complicit in the mistake should also be executed.