JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Frank Cohen on December 21, 2007, 07:05:13 AM
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Apparantely leftwing New York Times does.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4DF1039F934A15753C1A961948260
A former head of the Jewish Defense League was sentenced yesterday to 10 years in Federal prison for taking part in a series of ''terrorist bombings'' in the New York area since 1984 to protest Soviet treatment of Jews.
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In sentencing the defendant, Victor Vancier, 30 years old, of Whitestone, Queens, Judge I. Leo Glasser of Federal District Court in Brooklyn sternly told him, ''You don't go bombing innocent people to make a point.''
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He said he regarded Mr. Vancier as ''a danger to this community'' and, at the request of the Federal prosecutor, Charles E. Rose, he revoked Mr. Vancier's $1 million bail. According to the authorities, Mr. Vancier served as national chairman of the J.D.L. from April 1985 until November 1986. Two Others Sentenced
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''It's fair to say he's a little bit nuts,'' the lawyer said. But he asked that Mr. Vancier be spared a term in prison, where he ''would be subjected to attacks and animosity.'' 'Utterly Lawless'
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1987 a little behind the times are we,you must of went out of your wy to find it.Does'nt bother me who died?
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Chaim served his time, and paid for his crime. The law was correct and all sentences filled.
End of story.
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I just did a little research on him cause I didnt know the full story.
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Are you happy now you know? does it make a difference?
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Given the circumstances I think it was not a terrorist act. His bombings didn't kill or hurt anyone. I totally admire Chaim for what he did. He gave up his own freedom to help his fellow people. If anything he is a hero.
In my eyes he was demonstrating just it was in a destructive way. He didn't cause any permanent damage. By no means is this a Terrorist act.
Had I been PM of Israel I would have:
1) Tried extradicting him to Israel and grant him immunity from any authorities.
2) Give him a hero's welcome in Israel upon arrival.
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Given the circumstances I think it was not a terrorist act. His bombings didn't kill or hurt anyone. I totally admire Chaim for what he did. He gave up his own freedom to help his fellow people. If anything he is a hero.
In truth its a fine line, under many anti terrorism laws Chaim would not of come out the way he did. Due to the fact it was pre 9/11 it works in his favour.
Say the same act commited now, then the ICC would be involved.
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The fact that Chaim spent a day in jail is a crime against humanity. You have whole neighborhoods in brooklyn where literally every single "person" is a member of Hamas or Al Qaeda and they are free to walk the streets.
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The law is the law fair or not is what allows us to remain civilized.
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Chaim never hurt anybody, and didn't do what he did, to entirely innocent people either.
It was an act of demonstration, was it not?! He was making his point and it certainly got him listened to.
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NO WAY!
However under the Bolshevik establishment today, Chaim would be considered just as bad or even worse just to show the Musslim Nazis that they don't hold a grudge against them... because after all 'Islam is a Beautiful religion' and only a few are responsible for terrorism, most Musslims are peaceful and wonderful people. The Media would jump all over this story today and literally crucify Chaim just to build bridges with Musslims. >:(
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Chaim never hurt anybody, and didn't do what he did, to entirely innocent people either.
It was an act of demonstration, was it not?! He was making his point and it certainly got him listened to.
Very true.
Chaim destroyed property. He never killed a single person.
I think you have to kill atleast one person before you can be considered a terrorist.
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Chaim never hurt anybody, and didn't do what he did, to entirely innocent people either.
It was an act of demonstration, was it not?! He was making his point and it certainly got him listened to.
Very true.
Chaim destroyed property. He never killed a single person.
I think you have to kill atleast one person before you can be considered a terrorist.
He shouldn't be called or even considered a terrorist, when the term is used to describe the actions of people who have killed thousands of innocent civilians. A terrorist a couple of decades ago, aren't the same terrorists that blew up the twin towers. The word itself is too leniant for the people who committed these crimes, but now that it is used it is completely unfair and invalid to call what Chaim did an act of terrorism.
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I think you're asking the wrong question.
What would Chaim be if he didn't take action to defend Jews?
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no and he didn't kill anyone either...
The problem is that the Pals are more legitimate to these fools than Chaim.
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President Ronald Reagan correctly branded the Soviet Union as "The Evil Empire".
Chaim's actions against the oppression of his people were not "terrorism".
Maybe a misdemeanor charge of "malicious mischief" or "disturbing the peace" might apply, but if I was a judge I would have dismissed even these charges.
What kind of American government is it that kowtows to evil Communist regimes while prosecuting its own citizens for resisting brutal dictators?
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Re: "...The law is the law fair or not..."
True enough.
But Justice must be tempered with Mercy when appropriate.
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I feel there is a big difference between terrorism and making a statement via a violent action. Chaim, like most of what I've read about the Irgun and Lahey, tried not to hurt any civilians on purpose, while the terrorists of our day focus on both civilians and military targets.
The fact that Chaim, and his group, tried to draw attention to the mass immoral agenda at work during his day, and currently happening today via the Arabs, NAU, NWO etc. what he did was for pure shock value and to bring attention to an issue.
Perhaps if there were more Jews of similar integrity today, Israel would be catering to murderers and awarding our land to the Nazi Muslims for an internationally recognized but not honored piece of toilet paper...
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I prefer to think of Chaim as a freedom fighter, definitely not a terrorist.
Yes, he used non-lethal terror to help free oppressed Jews being held captive, tortured and murdered by an evil regime.
This is definitely a case where the ends justified the means.
I'm not against terrorizing terrorists. And the real terrorists in this case were the Soviet pigs holding my Jewish brothers and sisters captive, unjustifiably imprisoning them under the harshest conditions imaginable, and murdering them whenever they felt like it.
Thank G-d Rav Kahane, Chaim, and other Jewish heros refused to allow this travesty to continue and acted to finally stop it.
If the legal establishment wants to think of Chaim as an ex-terrorist, fine.
As far as I'm concerned, the world can use more 'terrorists' like Chaim.
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Re: "...The law is the law fair or not..."
True enough.
But Justice must be tempered with Mercy when appropriate.
Which was Mercy that Chaim was handed by the Judge.
Property in many major legal systems are worth more than human life.
Example steal say $100,000 you will face 3-6years, kill a person in a car you can face 6 months -1 year if that. Thats here in Australia.
Property crime you can do 2 years up.
What will never sit well with me is the method Chaim used.
Reason behind what he did I support. But I don't support the use of bombs in any form, useless controlled by the military.
There is a fine line and by no fault of oneself, can be easily crossed.
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No.
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at most it should be consired vandalisim.
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at most it should be consired vandalisim.
It's all about the method used huh. Blow it up, terrorism. Light it on fire, arson. Destroy it with a sledge hammer, vandalism. The end result is all the same, the car is totaled.
So beating it into a pile of mangled metal and broken glass with a sledge hammer is the way to go to minimize legal consiquences, probably a hell of a lot of fun too. :::D
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No No and No
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No!
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and No!
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Well, it could be a terrorist act, depends on how you define it! Just because the word "terrorist" is tainted and associated with Islamic scumbags, does not change the actual meaning or definition of a terrorist act. First of all, terrorism does not require killings, it doesn't require bombings, it doesn't even require actual use of force. There are many subtle forms of terrorism that happen all over the world that aren't paid attention to and considered "terrorist acts." When Iranian women are afraid to go out onto the streets dressed in Western clothing due to threats and violent action taken against other women, that can be seen as an act of terrorism. Terrorism can be mere threats.
Surely bombing a building for the purpose of coercing or intimidating the Soviet Union into freeing Soviet Jews can be a terrorist act.
Terrorism is changing though, and almost all substantial terrorism of today has the targeted killing of innocent civilians in common. Killing innocent civilians is starting to become a requirement of a "terrorist act."
Not all terrorist acts are evil, and not all of them spring from unjustified causes. Remember the bombing of the King David Hotel by the Stern group whose acts of resistance against the British helped liberate the land of Israel.
I think that Chaim's bombings can be called terrorist acts. That's not to say that they were unjustified. It was a very minor form of terrorism, especially by today's standards, but it's still terrorism.
It wasn't terrorism that had any danger to the U.S. though, even though it took place on American soil, it was terrorism directed against the Soviet Union. In light of that fact, the purposeful non-deadly nature of Chaim's bombings, and the worthy political end that was sought, his sentence should have been reduced.
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I couldn't care less about some evil communist Soviets who starved to death millions of their people, killed millions of their own people in Siberian death camps, outlawed religion, probably killed hundreds of thousands of Jews in Siberia, and took millions captive for over 50 years. My father and grandparents lived there and what Chaim did was less than one thousandth of what should have been done to these animals.
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Given the circumstances I think it was not a terrorist act. His bombings didn't kill or hurt anyone. I totally admire Chaim for what he did. He gave up his own freedom to help his fellow people. If anything he is a hero.
In my eyes he was demonstrating just it was in a destructive way. He didn't cause any permanent damage. By no means is this a Terrorist act.
Had I been PM of Israel I would have:
1) Tried extradicting him to Israel and grant him immunity from any authorities.
2) Give him a hero's welcome in Israel upon arrival.
i agree
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No. Chaim should of been given an award for his heroism. He should of never served a single day in prison.
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Frank, considering that this is Chaim's forum, and the members here believe in Chaim's cause, I don't understand the point of you coming here and asking if what he did was a "terrorist" act.
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I think I'm right in saying that Chaim hurt at least one person, there was some viscous Jew hater that Chaim attacked with a baseball bat, he didn't kill the guy though.
So, Chaim's "crimes" altogether would be accurately described as battery, and vandalism.
However, the fact is that his repeated vandalism did put some terror into the head's of some Jew haters, and therefore, you could technically say that he committed some terrorism, as people became terrified of losing their property.
Another fact is that what he did should not have been necessary, no one should have needed to put pressure on people to stop killing Jews,. and therefore, Chaim's crimes should not be classed as crimes at all, they were his civic duty, and he is an upstanding citizen for having carried them out.
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Re: "...there was some viscous Jew hater that Chaim attacked with a baseball bat..."
Well, I hope Chaim had the good sense to use an old-fashioned Louisville Slugger and not one of those new-fangled aluminum bats!
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Apparantely leftwing New York Times does.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4DF1039F934A15753C1A961948260
A former head of the Jewish Defense League was sentenced yesterday to 10 years in Federal prison for taking part in a series of ''terrorist bombings'' in the New York area since 1984 to protest Soviet treatment of Jews.
....
In sentencing the defendant, Victor Vancier, 30 years old, of Whitestone, Queens, Judge I. Leo Glasser of Federal District Court in Brooklyn sternly told him, ''You don't go bombing innocent people to make a point.''
......
He said he regarded Mr. Vancier as ''a danger to this community'' and, at the request of the Federal prosecutor, Charles E. Rose, he revoked Mr. Vancier's $1 million bail. According to the authorities, Mr. Vancier served as national chairman of the J.D.L. from April 1985 until November 1986. Two Others Sentenced
.....
''It's fair to say he's a little bit nuts,'' the lawyer said. But he asked that Mr. Vancier be spared a term in prison, where he ''would be subjected to attacks and animosity.'' 'Utterly Lawless'
Chaim have you ever been in the former Soviet Uniun?
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Apparantely leftwing New York Times does.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE4DF1039F934A15753C1A961948260
A former head of the Jewish Defense League was sentenced yesterday to 10 years in Federal prison for taking part in a series of ''terrorist bombings'' in the New York area since 1984 to protest Soviet treatment of Jews.
....
In sentencing the defendant, Victor Vancier, 30 years old, of Whitestone, Queens, Judge I. Leo Glasser of Federal District Court in Brooklyn sternly told him, ''You don't go bombing innocent people to make a point.''
......
He said he regarded Mr. Vancier as ''a danger to this community'' and, at the request of the Federal prosecutor, Charles E. Rose, he revoked Mr. Vancier's $1 million bail. According to the authorities, Mr. Vancier served as national chairman of the J.D.L. from April 1985 until November 1986. Two Others Sentenced
.....
''It's fair to say he's a little bit nuts,'' the lawyer said. But he asked that Mr. Vancier be spared a term in prison, where he ''would be subjected to attacks and animosity.'' 'Utterly Lawless'
Chaim have you ever been in the former Soviet Uniun?
you know,it's funny...either you are Israeli or you are an Albanian teenager who can't spell.
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Soviets were never "inocent people" so any form of fighting them including using the terror tacktics, which Bolshevics used against own populace and all neighbours are legitimate to me. Furthermore his goal was to free Russian Jewry not to frighten the Kremlin into submission; So I call Chaim freedomfighter not terrorist.
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That's why my father left the JDL because they were getting too violent for him.
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No of course I dont
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We all know that if Chaim had been a black ape who bombed a South African embassy or cultural center to protest apartheid, not only would he have not been charged with anything, but given a Congressional medal of honor. >:(
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That's why my father left the JDL because they were getting too violent for him.
Sometimes you have to crush some temples and broke some bones to get your point; next time the Jews must be prepered to shoot not beg. And frnakly speaking JDL was many times less violent than contemporary Black Panthers or KKK.
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More Jew-haters, not fewer, need to be attacked.
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R U B B I S H³
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That's why my father left the JDL because they were getting too violent for him.
Sometimes you have to crush some temples and broke some bones to get your point; next time the Jews must be prepered to shoot not beg. And frnakly speaking JDL was many times less violent than contemporary Black Panthers or KKK.
Very very well said O0
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What did he blow up?
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NO!
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Chaim helped bombed some Russian embassys because of their treatment to Russian Jews.
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he is our hero ;) O0 O0
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some people think so.
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This poster is just trying to start up trouble, you can tell by how it was worded. What a shittty post!
But anyway, thank God the Jews have a Chaim Ben Pesach. If we had a few dozen like Chaim in the the late 1930's, you could bet your sweet asss that Hitler would have been "taken care of" before he came to real power. Could you imagine Chaim and a few other tough JDL guys waiting for Hitler to return to his house after giving one of his local speeches during his rise to power. I don't think you would recognize Hitler's body, if there was anything left of it, after the attack.
And if Chaim were in power in Israel, you can just imagine how amazing Israel would be! Israel would become the military and religious powerhouse it was meant to be.
The Jews need more Chaim Ben Pesachs in this world! God bless Chaim 10 times over.
Sincerely,
The Shadow
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Chaim helped bombed some Russian embassys because of their treatment to Russian Jews.
And NO ONE was hurt
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This poster is just trying to start up trouble, you can tell by how it was worded. What a shittty post!
But anyway, thank G-d the Jews have a Chaim Ben Pesach. If we had a few dozen like Chaim in the the late 1930's, you could bet your sweet asss that Hitler would have been "taken care of" before he came to real power. Could you imagine Chaim and a few other tough JDL guys waiting for Hitler to return to his house after giving one of his local speeches during his rise to power. I don't think you would recognize Hitler's body, if there was anything left of it, after the attack.
And if Chaim were in power in Israel, you can just imagine how amazing Israel would be! Israel would become the military and religious powerhouse it was meant to be.
The Jews need more Chaim Ben Pesachs in this world! G-d bless Chaim 10 times over.
Sincerely,
The Shadow
indeed my friend, indeed!!!
Long Live Chaim, and may he soon be in office, and Eretz Yisrael be glorious