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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 11:23:33 AM

Title: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 11:23:33 AM
If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees full bearded non-Kahanist ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41438000/jpg/_41438586_hassi.jpg)
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ben m on June 09, 2010, 11:26:08 AM
If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees non-Kahanist strictly Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41438000/jpg/_41438586_hassi.jpg)
i would run away at the very day they would become a majority.i don't want anything imposed on me.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on June 09, 2010, 11:35:39 AM
If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees non-Kahanist strictly Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41438000/jpg/_41438586_hassi.jpg)
i would run away at the very day the Jews would become a majority.i don't want anything imposed on me.

No one needs you here anyway. Btw, most Haredim do not believe in forcibly imposing the Jewish law on "Secular" Jews because that would only cause hatred (Mitzvoht better come with meaning).
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: TheCoon on June 09, 2010, 11:53:22 AM
I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ben m on June 09, 2010, 12:43:19 PM
I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.
yes.this is in order to preserve the 19th century eastern european lstyle of life.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ben m on June 09, 2010, 12:44:05 PM
If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees non-Kahanist strictly Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41438000/jpg/_41438586_hassi.jpg)
i would run away at the very day the Jews would become a majority.i don't want anything imposed on me.

No one needs you here anyway. Btw, most Haredim do not believe in forcibly imposing the Jewish law on "Secular" Jews because that would only cause hatred (Mitzvoht better come with meaning).
i don't think i asked you to tell me if i need to stay in israel or not.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 02:52:46 PM
If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees full bearded non-Kahanist ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!


Perhaps you neglect science or rational thought when you propose impossible future scenarios as an envisioned certainty.   What a worthless post.   Chiloni Jews extinct?   You ever travel in Israel?  Or you stay in a ghetto and have no idea what other places and cities are like?   Get real dude.

Btw I've seen maybe one or two people with payos down to their knees before.   So why would suddenly all haredim have payos down to their knees.    You are obsessed with hyperbole and fantasy.   Tone down the imagination and embrace reality - don't fall into the trap that Adam HaRishon fell into.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: New Yorker on June 09, 2010, 03:11:42 PM
I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: White Israelite on June 09, 2010, 03:40:03 PM
I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

100 percent agreed, no one in my family ever dressed like that nor did any of my relatives. I've had proselytes that began dressing that way say that I need to be more Jewish and dress like them, I told them "I don't know too many Sephardic Jews that dress this way". I associate that style of dress with anti-zionists and neuterai karta. I will never dress that way. I would prefer to wear ancient Israelite clothing.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 03:52:41 PM
I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, 

It's not a rule.  The haredim wear that because they've made it as a style for themselves.  It's "cool" to have a fedora like in secular society it's "cool" for a young professional to wear a peacoat or for a businessman to begin to wear a suit and fancy tie.   The haredim have their own social mores like any other group.      Anyone who claims this attire is based in religious law is a charlatan or ignorant (or both).

Quote
I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

I also do not like the style haredim wear, especially the hat which I associate with the mafia, but dressing like an ancient Judean would make us look equally "weird" in the eyes of the "modern man" of western and/or secular society.  And who cares if they think we look weird?    We have a Jewish culture, just like they celebrate their african culture, or their italian culture, etc etc.   

But if you're going to reject the haredi style of dress based on Moshe, are you equally going to adopt the Judean style dress based on what the Torah, Tanach, and Talmud describe?    As you're living in New York (I'm basing that on your name), I doubt that.   For me, if I end up living in a settlement God willing, I would love to adopt the traditional Jewish attire.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: White Israelite on June 09, 2010, 03:59:36 PM
Where can one buy Israelite clothing? I would like to buy some myself.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 09, 2010, 04:02:10 PM
I'm curious as to why the Haredim feel that type of dress is considered "Jewish". No Jews in the Bible dressed anything like that. What is the history behind this kind of dress? To an outsider like myself it seems more Eastern-European than Jewish.

I know Chaim has made comments about how these Jews dress like Polish Jew-haters of the past and I'm looking to learn more about it.

Yeah, the mode of dress puzzles me too. Don't know where in Judaism it's a rule to wear a black coat and fedora, I know for a fact that Moses and the Jews of the Exodus weren't wearing that stuff, and I'll go with that as a guide for myself, but whatever, if they want to look like a 19th century funeral director that is their prerogative. I do dislike the fact that this is the image of what a Jew is to a lot of people, makes us look weird.

100 percent agreed, no one in my family ever dressed like that nor did any of my relatives. I've had proselytes that began dressing that way say that I need to be more Jewish and dress like them, I told them "I don't know too many Sephardic Jews that dress this way". I associate that style of dress with anti-zionists and neuterai karta. I will never dress that way. I would prefer to wear ancient Israelite clothing.

WI,

What kind of BS are you spouting now?

Chabad and Breslov both dress in the Haredi style and they are very pro-zionist... Please don't speak Lashon Hara against such righteous Jews as Chabad or Breslov, thank you..

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: New Yorker on June 09, 2010, 04:14:48 PM

My point wasn't to say we should dress like the Jews of the days of Moses!  :::D My point was that the Jews of the days of Moses dressed appropriately for the society and time they were living in, back then EVERYBODY dressed that way, today, it's suites, and Jeans, etc, and that's appropriate for the 21st century.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 04:16:14 PM
Chabad and Breslov are most definitely not "pro-Zionist".

What they have is considerably more ahavas yisroel for irreligious Jews than other Haredim. Many of their ranks are filled with former irreligious Jews.

And unlike other Haredi  groups, Chabad and Breslov oppose "Land for Peace", but solely on halachic grounds of pikuach nefesh, not for any Zionist, Biblical or Kahanist reasons.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 09, 2010, 04:19:09 PM
Chabad and Breslov are most definitely not "pro-Zionist".

What they have is considerably more ahavas yisroel for irreligious Jews than other Haredim. Many of their ranks are filled with former irreligious Jews.

And unlike other Haredi  groups, Chabad and Breslov oppose "Land for Peace", but solely on halachic grounds of pikuach nefesh, not for any Zionist, Biblical or Kahanist reasons.


Both are certainly not anti-Zionist... Simply go to either of their webpages and witness their support for the state of Israel... I don't know how you can speak against these two wonderful Jewish groups. Both of them do a great deal to keep Jews Jewish and keep the Jews coming to Israel.

While I agree they would not support some of the ideals of Kahanism this is no reason to call them anti-zionist. Saying that is certainly not true. Also I find it odd that you say they are not pro-Israel because of the Torah. I attend many Chabad Shabbatons and a lot of discussion is how we should get Jews to go to Israel.

wonga666, you always have Lashon Hara to speak about every Jew don't you?

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 04:27:17 PM
With Haredim having 8-20 children per family, and the Chilonim having 1-2 per family, ceteris paribus, the future statistically should inexorably belong to the former. But that's a big ceteris paribus! And yes: I live in Israel, where in the last few years there has been a noticeable massive increase in the packs and packs of roving under-20 Haredi male and female youths during bein hazmanim all over Israel. Whereas the under-20 chilloni youth numbers are percebtibly on the wane.


Perhaps you neglect science or rational thought when you propose impossible future scenarios as an envisioned certainty.   What a worthless post.   Chiloni Jews extinct?   You ever travel in Israel?  Or you stay in a ghetto and have no idea what other places and cities are like?   Get real dude.

[/quote]
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 09, 2010, 04:28:36 PM
With Haredim having 8-20 children per family, and the Chilonim having 1-2 per family, ceteris paribus, the future statistically should inexorably belong to the former. But that's a big ceteris paribus! And yes: I live in Israel, where in the last few years there has been a noticeable massive increase in the packs and packs of roving under-20 Haredi male and female youths during bein hazmanim all over Israel. Whereas as the under-20 chilloni youth numbers are percebtibly on the wane.


Perhaps you neglect science or rational thought when you propose impossible future scenarios as an envisioned certainty.   What a worthless post.   Chiloni Jews extinct?   You ever travel in Israel?  Or you stay in a ghetto and have no idea what other places and cities are like?   Get real dude.

[/quote]

Mazel Tov! So much for the demographic timebomb...

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 04:31:39 PM
With Haredim having 8-20 children per family,

Fantasy.   Do you ever actually consult real statistics?  Why do you engage in this silly hyperbole?

Averages are closer to 5.

Quote
and the Chilonim having 1-2 per family

1-2 is not 0.

Quote
And yes: I live in Israel, where in the last few years there has been a noticeable massive increase in the packs and packs of roving under-20 Haredi male and female youths during bein hazmanim all over Israel. 
  That's funny because I didn't ask if you lived in Israel, I knew that.   What I asked was, do you live in a ghetto and do you occasionally leave the ghetto to experience and observe other parts of the country.   Obviously not if you could purvey this sheker.

Quote
Whereas the under-20 chilloni youth numbers are percebtibly on the wane.

Really you've been chronicling the night life in tel aviv and other secular places and determined this is so statistically?  Or you wish for it and heard someone say it unfounded in your neighborhood once?
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 04:33:05 PM
Now if you went and witnessed an inbreeding Arab village like my former-far-leftist friend did, you would see what birthrate is all about.    The arabs aren't going away, and neither are secular Jews or any demographic group.   It's time to be realistic about the future.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 04:35:04 PM
Where did I say that they were "anti-Zionist"? Not being "pro-Zionist" is not the same as being "anti-Zionist"! However, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, like his contemporary rabbis, strongly opposed a Zionist state in the 30s. But once the State of Israel came in to being, Chabad strongly supported the yishuv, on grounds of ahavas yisroel. The 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe said in 1992 that he would be in the forefront of fighting Land for Peace, but he wrote that it would be on Halachic Shulhan Aruch grounds, and that he would be bring no Tenach verses! That is where he differed from Rav Kahane, whose Zionism was based on pure Tenach!


Both are certainly not anti-Zionist... Simply go to either of their webpages and witness their support for the state of Israel... I don't know how you can speak against these two wonderful Jewish groups. Both of them do a great deal to keep Jews Jewish and keep the Jews coming to Israel.

While I agree they would not support some of the ideals of Kahanism this is no reason to call them anti-zionist. Saying that is certainly not true. Also I find it odd that you say they are not pro-Israel because of the Torah. I attend many Chabad Shabbatons and a lot of discussion is how we should get Jews to go to Israel.




Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 04:43:54 PM
Historically, 1-2 children is not enough to sustain a society, which with such a low birthrate always go in to terminal decline. If things remain the same (which in Israel is unlikely!), then just like in 2050 the whites in the UK will be a minority, so too will the chillonim be in Israel. And by 2100, the secular Jew as we know them, will have disappeared from the world, through assimilation and low or even zero or even negative birth rate. Jewish numbers are only being sustained by the Haredim and knitted-kippot.




1-2 is not 0.


Quote
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 04:45:24 PM
Where did I say that they were "anti-Zionist"? Not being "pro-Zionist" is not the same as being "anti-Zionist"! However, the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, like his contemporary rabbis, strongly opposed a Zionist state in the 30s. But once the State of Israel came in to being, Chabad strongly supported the yishuv, on grounds of ahavas yisroel. The 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe said in 1992 that he would be in the forefront of fighting Land for Peace, but he wrote that it would be on Halachic Shulhan Aruch grounds, and that he would be bring no Tenach verses! That is where he differed from Rav Kahane, whose Zionism was based on pure Tenach!


More silliness.  Are you suggesting that Rabbi Kahane didn't have halacha to back his opinions?   Absolutely absurd.  He said about Kach, we are not merely activists or a political movement, we are first and foremost a halachic movement.  A Jewish movement.    

Halacha as we all know is not drawn from Tanach.   So to what did he refer when he mentioned Halacha.  Give me a break with this nonsense.   You are just trying to promote a strange hashkafa that gives credence to the haredi point of view about the state of Israel.    Are you really suggesting that zionism can only be promoted on grounds of ahavath Yisrael and that no other mitzvoth or halachoth are involved?    What utter nonsense.   And to say this in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe!      Even if what you said was true, why would Ahavath Yisrael override the rest of halacha if halacha is really against zionism?    What a pointless argument I've now entangled myself in.   The bottom line is you are not consulting statistical analyses and you are making baseless claims and speculations that no thinking person can accept.   Your "dream" that chilonim disappear is like a peyote-induced hallucination.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 04:48:27 PM
then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

And by 2100, the chilloni Jew as we know them, will have disappeared from the world.

 :jump:   Tell me more.   Will Alice and the mad hatter be there too?


::)
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 04:52:49 PM
And don't forget.  A percentage of haredim go off the derech unfortunately, so the "ranks" of the chilonim are replenished not just with their having kids.

Don't forget also about the new law which enables ex-pats to vote.   There will be more laws like it coming soon to an israeli regime near you.   Because they will do whatever it takes to counteract whatever change in the demographics actually does occur.  Whether it's legal, whether it's just or not.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 04:56:44 PM
When it came to Hilchos Eretz Yisroel, Rav Kahane was like a fish in water. Especially the Halachos of how to handle goyim in Israel.

But he was primarily a Tenach Man, and would bring clear pesukim from the Chumash to back the Jewish right to the Land. No one today quotes pesukim.

And that is why Hashem has raised an Amolekite Ahmadinejad Persian neo-Haman: to warn and prompt the Jew that if he doesn't fulfil his tafkid of quoting pesukim from the Chumash, the Third Jewish commonwealth is in jeopardy!

The rabbis say that the gentiles crave to hear the Dvar Hashem from the Jew. That is the purpose of the Jew's existence: "This people I have created for Me, that they relate My praise" (Yeshaya 43). When the gentiles fail to hear that Dvar, they subconsciously and even unwittingly go in to a rage at the Jew's failure. A rage sufficient to try & exterminate the Jews!

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 05:00:09 PM

And that is why Hashem has raised an Amolekite Ahmadinejad Persian neo-Haman: to warn and prompt the Jew that if he doesn't fulfil his tafkid of quoting pesukim from the Chumash, the Third Jewish commonwealth is in jeopardy!



 :crazy:   
You have quite an imagination.   That's the nice way of putting it.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 05:01:45 PM
When it came to Hilchos Eretz Yisroel, Rav Kahane was like a fish in water. Especially the Halachos of how to handle goyim in Israel.

I see you've now backtracked.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 05:13:54 PM
It's just a matter of a few decades before the hardcore Chilloni heartland of Ramat Aviv is totally overrun by the Haredim of neighboring Bnei Brak
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896240,00.html

So how do you envisage Jewish demographics in Israel and outside it, in 2030, 2050 and in 2100?!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_k95DnR-pqGQ/Se3oZMH2_hI/AAAAAAAAEnM/yFaYYwzhWoQ/s400/2009226_0144121818_1.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gSlMm4Ee2BA/SQJ4USrdgiI/AAAAAAAACD8/66mqXeuHdIA/s400/Hasidic+wedding.jpg)
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 09, 2010, 05:21:40 PM
It's just a matter of a few decades before the hardcore Chilloni heartland of Ramat Aviv is totally overrun by the Haredim of neighboring Bnei Brak
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896240,00.html

So how do you envisage Jewish demographics in Israel and outside it, in 2030, 2050 and in 2100?!

LOL, so now it's not birthrate magical disappearing acts, but it's the existing haredim chabad-missionizing them away.   Yes, in fantasy world's 100% success rates are possible in any task!   So not only will they 100% disappear by having no children and haredim having 300 million "gazillion" kids per family, but whatever "surviving" chilonim of previous generations are still wandering around will surely be taken in by lollipops given out by Chabad, and suddenly they'll not only do a single mitzvah, they'll become kollel learners and fully observant self-identifying haredim in seconds flat.   And then marshmellows will fall from the sky.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 09, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
A birth curve is not a straight line. It suddenly exponentially takes off dramatically!

(http://www.bio.miami.edu/~cmallery/150/handouts/c8.53x12.sigmoid.jpg)

"The Israelites were fruitful and multiplied greatly and became exceedingly numerous, so that the land was filled with them" (Shmos 1).

If current birth rates persist, the Haredi numbers will suddenly be dramatically obvious to everyone.

By rights one should be happy that the majority of Jews will in the coming decades be Torah observers and believers.

But as Kahanists we cannot!
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 09, 2010, 05:34:53 PM
What are you getting at...

I will be happy when all the Jews are gathered in the Holy Land. What is there to worry about?

I have no care whether they are Chabad/Breslov/Haredi/Sephardi or whatever... Also how do you compare Kahanist to Chabad? Are there Kahahist outreach centers? I never have seen anything like that..

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 09, 2010, 05:51:49 PM
From what I have read, 2.11 births per woman are needed for a demographic to maintain itself in a society.  I have not made a huge study of this, only after watching a few movies based upon Muslims trying to out breed non-Muslims and did some googling.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 09, 2010, 06:19:01 PM
The only religious Jews in israel that are having lots a kids aren't just the black hat anti zionist payot haredi but also the zionist kahanist ones and lubovitch. All I have to say is that I can only hope that secular self hating israelis will become extinct. We need a religious torah judaism israel and that's better thab the bolshevik one there right now.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: TheCoon on June 09, 2010, 07:28:08 PM
Do the haredim generally reject military service in Israel? I've heard this before.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 09, 2010, 08:19:14 PM
Re:  Black suits, black hats, white shirts --

I asked a Chabad Rabbi this same question:  "Why do they dress in that style of clothing?"  "There is no Scriptural basis for it, and ancient Jews certainly did not dress in that apparel!"

He replied that such clothing was the style of the Polish Nobility during the times in which Chasidism was appearing.  The Jews wanted to be elegantly but simply dressed, and the plain black and white color motif was to represent humbleness in appearance, etc. .

I personally find that all who dress like this that I have met have the deeply held belief that all male Jews MUST dress and appear like this, or they are not Jews, and seem to become quite emotionally upset over the possibility that Jews would choose any other clothing styles.

I have yet to see an artistic representation of Moses or King David wearing black lace up shoes, black fedoras, white shirt, black pants, and black coats.  The truth is the Jews of ancient Israel probably more resembled the Taliban in their style of dress than they did the Haredim:  headcovering or turban like wrap, loose fitting gown style clothing, sandals, etc.  However, I don't recall depictions of ancient Jews all walking around wearing curved daggers or long swords, other than in time of war.

Of course, ancient Jews always wore Timex brand wristwatches.

Because the Jew, like a Timex , "takes a licking, and keeps on ticking!" 

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 09, 2010, 08:21:58 PM
Re:  Black suits, black hats, white shirts --

I asked a Chabad Rabbi this same question:  "Why do they dress in that style of clothing?"  "There is no Scriptural basis for it, and ancient Jews certainly did not dress in that apparel!"

He replied that such clothing was the style of the Polish Nobility during the times in which Chasidism was appearing.  The Jews wanted to be elegantly but simply dressed, and the plain black and white color motif was to represent humbleness in appearance, etc. .

I personally find that all who dress like this that I have met have the deeply held belief that all male Jews MUST dress and appear like this, or they are not Jews, and seem to become quite emotionally upset over the possibility that Jews would choose any other clothing styles.

I have yet to see an artistic representation of Moses or King David wearing black lace up shoes, black fedoras, white shirt, black pants, and black coats.  The truth is the Jews of ancient Israel probably more resembled the Taliban in their style of dress than they did the Haredim:  headcovering or turban like wrap, loose fitting gown style clothing, sandals, etc.  However, I don't recall depictions of ancient Jews all walking around wearing curved daggers or long swords, other than in time of war.

Of course, ancient Jews always wore Timex brand wristwatches.

Because the Jew, like a Timex , "takes a licking, and keeps on ticking!" 



My experience with Chabad differs from yours. I don't think Chabad expects all Jews to dress as Chabadniks. The Chabad events I attend most people don't dress as Chabad does. I know 3 Chabad Rabbis personally and none have ever expressed any idea that everyone should dress as Chabad. If you want to be a Chabadnik then you will dress as they do. I have no problem with the way they dress and I don't think anyone ever suggested this is the way King David or Moses dressed..

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: FreedomFighter08 on June 09, 2010, 08:38:05 PM
Educate the young Jews of Israel about science, rational thought, and the Enlightenment and point out to them the works of Baruch Spinoza and Adam Smith to prevent this. No special treatment for people who don't want to act like they actually live in today's world.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: ape on June 09, 2010, 08:44:05 PM
If Haredim are set to become the majority in Israel by 2030 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/secular-jews-may-be-minority-in-israeli-schools-by-2030-1.277177 then by 2060 the chilloni Jew in Israel, with their negative birthrate and maybe even outside of Israel, will be extinct!

What will life be like in 50 years in a 100% black-coated peyos down to their knees full bearded non-Kahanist ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jewish world?!

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41438000/jpg/_41438586_hassi.jpg)

Boy that guy looks scary....or like the michelin man or something. Is that a man or a parade float?

(http://dressagerider.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/michelin-man.jpg)
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 09, 2010, 08:45:39 PM
When I go to shul at Chabad I see maybe a quarter of the people there dressed in black suits, and many other young Jews dressed in stuff like khakis, collared shirt, and a blazer or such.  The latter is how I myself dress most of the time.  I'm sure other Chabad houses are different, the one I go to is quite small.

Otherwise its Levi's!  Jewish jeans! [never at Shul]
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Strauss.html

I had heard that the Ba'al Shem Tov dressed in a black suit like this and that's why many Jews dress like this.  People emulate other people they respect.  I started wearing nicer clothes at Shul because my Torah study leader dresses in a similar fashion and he gave a lesson on the holiness of clothes [a gift to Adam and Eve; G-d created clothes for their "newfound" modesty], he also tied in that wearing classier clothes is a way to personally show God respect.  Maybe I'm a lemming. --  I have also heard that in Talmud it says that a man should dress slightly less than his means, and should dress his wife slightly above his means.  I do all my shopping at Ross, paying about $13 for a pair of name brand dress slacks, and I am not married [yet!]; I imagine some women find this arrangement quite suitable.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 09, 2010, 10:52:19 PM
Educate the young Jews of Israel about science, rational thought, and the Enlightenment and point out to them the works of Baruch Spinoza and Adam Smith to prevent this. No special treatment for people who don't want to act like they actually live in today's world.

Wonderful idea... Not...

While science is great it is essential that Jews are taught Torah. I also think that modern philosophies run contrary to Jewish wisdom...

PS: You know that Israel's High-Tech industry is booming and scientific breakthroughs are occuring often in Israel. I don't think that there is a lack of science eduction going on... But look at those leftists at Hebrew U... Maybe a little too much philosophy there...

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 09, 2010, 11:09:24 PM
Educate the young Jews of Israel about science, rational thought, and the Enlightenment and point out to them the works of Baruch Spinoza and Adam Smith to prevent this. No special treatment for people who don't want to act like they actually live in today's world.

Wonderful idea... Not...

While science is great it is essential that Jews are taught Torah. I also think that modern philosophies run contrary to Jewish wisdom...

PS: You know that Israel's High-Tech industry is booming and scientific breakthroughs are occuring often in Israel. I don't think that there is a lack of science eduction going on... But look at those leftists at Hebrew U... Maybe a little too much philosophy there...



Spinoza is the most famous cherem I can think of.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 10, 2010, 03:28:56 AM
The Haredi can make as good a bus driver, army officer, accountant, computer programmer, dentist, doctor, brain surgeon and garbage collector as anyone else, if not better, especially when motivated by Torah and his rebbes.

Future demographics ensure that the licensing and education authorities are going to have amend their courses to cater for Haredim.

And the Haredim are going to have to make English and mathematics a part of their core curriculum, which they don't at the moment, making them largely unemployable in these fields!
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 10, 2010, 03:44:01 AM
A birth curve is not a straight line. It suddenly exponentially takes off dramatically!


Yes but people with low birthrates don't magically disappear.   You are not speaking mathematically.

And certainly the low birthrate people won't disappear when they are the demographic in control of the apparatus of state.   They will do everything in their power to maintain themselves and their vice grip on all aspects of Israeli society, including importing more goyim if necessary, destroying the entire Dati Leumi camp, and creating a Muslim Arab Fakestinian Terrorist state (think, the british palestine mandate methods for how that benefits them).   
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 10, 2010, 03:48:35 AM
The Erev Rav who control secular Israel get on just fine with the eminently bribable Erev Ze'ir who currently control Haredi Israel!

Both though would rather liquidate the State and their populations, rather than see Kahanism (ie true Torah) take over.

That is the definition and very purpose of the Erev Rav & Erev Zei'r, as explained by the Vilna Gaon: to keep the Moshiach ben David, the Moshiach ben Yosef, and the Jewish heartland of Judea & Samaria, permanently separated!
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 10, 2010, 03:50:29 AM
Educate the young Jews of Israel about science, rational thought, and the Enlightenment and point out to them the works of Baruch Spinoza and Adam Smith to prevent this. No special treatment for people who don't want to act like they actually live in today's world.

Adam Smith?   What does that have to do with anything?   I'm a big believer in free market economy, yet I also believe strongly in religious Jews having as many kids as is feasibly and practically possible.    How does Adam Smith prevent a Jew from being haredi?   Ridiculous.

As to spinoza, except for one philosophically inclined, I fail to see how it's of value to go out of your way to teach his works.   Spinoza is not giving over mathematics or a hard science or a trade that is important to make a living or to understand life in general or how the world works - it's simply a philosophy where he reformed the Jewish ideas.  People who appreciate philosophy and how that which is in line with Torah is unique from the secular/non-Jewish or heretical philosophy (in Spinoza's case) can delve into that.   My rabbi does!  And he is haredi and Baruch Hashem he has many children.   It's an honor and a pleasure to learn with such a tremendous gaon as my rabbi.    

I await your reply.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 10, 2010, 04:05:18 AM
The Erev Rav who control secular Israel get on just fine with the eminently bribable Erev Ze'ir who currently control Haredi Israel!

Both though would rather liquidate the State and their populations, rather than see Kahanism (ie true Torah) take over.

That is the definition and very purpose of the Erev Rav & Erev Zei'r, as explained by the Vilna Gaon: to keep the Moshiach ben David, the Moshiach ben Yosef, and the Jewish heartland of Judea & Samaria, permanently separated!

Would you be willing to explain to me what these two terms I have bolded mean?  By liquidate the state do you mean bringing Israel into a state of non-existence and the decimation of the population? -- [I'm sorry if I misinterpret, if so please correct me] -- And why would these two Erev camps be so opposed to Kahanism they would seek the destruction of the state, or whatever liquidation means, to occur rather than letting Israel be a Torah state?  To what purpose would any Jew not desire to have our Moshiach come?  I have my suspicious and I am always a bit skeptical towards secular Jews, but I am interested in what you have to say.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 10, 2010, 04:10:55 AM
A birth curve is not a straight line. It suddenly exponentially takes off dramatically!


Yes but people with low birthrates don't magically disappear.   You are not speaking mathematically.

And certainly the low birthrate people won't disappear when they are the demographic in control of the apparatus of state.   They will do everything in their power to maintain themselves and their vice grip on all aspects of Israeli society, including importing more goyim if necessary, destroying the entire Dati Leumi camp, and creating a Muslim Arab Fakestinian Terrorist state (think, the british palestine mandate methods for how that benefits them).   
Importing more goyim just to spite the will of the Jewish people is a morbid thought.  G-d forbid it ever happens.  Do secular Jews truly hate religious Jews who want to be governed by more traditional Jewish values [this is what the Dati Leumi are, yes?] that much that they would turn Israel into basically a non-Jewish state?  If so, why do you think that reason is?  What can good Jews do to remove the powers that be from control before they have a chance to do any of what may happen as you see?
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ben m on June 10, 2010, 06:48:40 AM
A birth curve is not a straight line. It suddenly exponentially takes off dramatically!


Yes but people with low birthrates don't magically disappear.   You are not speaking mathematically.

And certainly the low birthrate people won't disappear when they are the demographic in control of the apparatus of state.   They will do everything in their power to maintain themselves and their vice grip on all aspects of Israeli society, including importing more goyim if necessary, destroying the entire Dati Leumi camp, and creating a Muslim Arab Fakestinian Terrorist state (think, the british palestine mandate methods for how that benefits them).   
Importing more goyim just to spite the will of the Jewish people is a morbid thought.  G-d forbid it ever happens.  Do secular Jews truly hate religious Jews who want to be governed by more traditional Jewish values [this is what the Dati Leumi are, yes?] that much that they would turn Israel into basically a non-Jewish state?  If so, why do you think that reason is?  What can good Jews do to remove the powers that be from control before they have a chance to do any of what may happen as you see?
i don't have problems with the religious zionists orthe moderate haredim.but i will have a real problem with most of the haredim in israel that are evading taxes and don't serve in the army.and this is also the opinion of the majority of the secular israelis.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Kahane-Was-Right BT on June 10, 2010, 07:18:45 AM
A birth curve is not a straight line. It suddenly exponentially takes off dramatically!


Yes but people with low birthrates don't magically disappear.   You are not speaking mathematically.

And certainly the low birthrate people won't disappear when they are the demographic in control of the apparatus of state.   They will do everything in their power to maintain themselves and their vice grip on all aspects of Israeli society, including importing more goyim if necessary, destroying the entire Dati Leumi camp, and creating a Muslim Arab Fakestinian Terrorist state (think, the british palestine mandate methods for how that benefits them).   
Importing more goyim just to spite the will of the Jewish people is a morbid thought.  G-d forbid it ever happens.  Do secular Jews truly hate religious Jews who want to be governed by more traditional Jewish values [this is what the Dati Leumi are, yes?] that much that they would turn Israel into basically a non-Jewish state?  If so, why do you think that reason is?  What can good Jews do to remove the powers that be from control before they have a chance to do any of what may happen as you see?

They are willing to do anything to stay in power.   It's not "secular Jews" in general, it's the Israeli regime and the leftist apparatus.   Many secular Jews are simply zionists.   It's the regime that seeks to bolster its own power with every last breath and will do anything it takes, including destroying the entire dati leumi societies, including compromising on suicidal retreats from the homeland and handing over money power and arms to terrorists.  Thus the expulsion from Aza, the coming/intended expulsions from Yosh (Lo alenu), and the daily destruction of outposts, shuls, farms, etc in Yosh.    The Dati Leumi are more of a threat than the haredim because the dati leumi aspire to national prominence and involvement in leadership and all fields.   The haredim laregly sit on the sidelines and thus pose no threat to the establishment.

The "rabim" don't understand most of these issues and simply complain about haredi this and haredi that, yet they fail to see what the establishment surely understands is that politically the haredi society is in the pockets and in the control of the regime and to the regime's benefit.  So all the laborites, kadimaites, likudniks, etc etc should be thanking the haredim.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: wonga66 on June 10, 2010, 09:54:57 AM
In the early 90s when 1 million ex-Soviets were quickly imported in to Israel, and complaints were made that 80% were not Halachically Jewish, and that of them 25% had no Jewish blood in them at all, the verminous Yossi Sarid said that they made "a good antidote to the Haredim by setting off their numbers!". The same Yossi Sarid who is advocating importing immediately at least 1 million plain Ethiopian Blacks in to Israel!

(http://eranlam.com/wp-content/gallery/portraits/yossi-sarid.jpg)

Rather than see Kahanists take power, both Chillonim and Haredim would literally end the Medina: it goes that deep! "The war against the Erev Rav is more important and more dangerous than that of the war against Esau & Ishmael: the Geulah depends on it" (Vilna Gaon).


"At the time of a Kahanist Government, any Jewish traitors will be executed immediately!"  (Chaim's former r.h. man, Yosef ben Meir z"l 2002).
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 10, 2010, 09:55:59 AM
WI,

What kind of BS are you spouting now?

Chabad and Breslov both dress in the Haredi style and they are very pro-zionist... Please don't speak Lashon Hara against such righteous Jews as Chabad or Breslov, thank you..
Where did he put down Chabad and Breslov?
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 10, 2010, 09:58:48 AM
WI,

What kind of BS are you spouting now?

Chabad and Breslov both dress in the Haredi style and they are very pro-zionist... Please don't speak Lashon Hara against such righteous Jews as Chabad or Breslov, thank you..
Where did he put down Chabad and Breslov?

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,46762.msg446694.html#msg446694

Quote
100 percent agreed, no one in my family ever dressed like that nor did any of my relatives. I've had proselytes that began dressing that way say that I need to be more Jewish and dress like them, I told them "I don't know too many Sephardic Jews that dress this way". I associate that style of dress with anti-zionists and neuterai karta. I will never dress that way. I would prefer to wear ancient Israelite clothing.

(http://www.crownheights.info/media/4/20080127-rabbi-zacks.jpg)
Chabad Rabbi

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DoycQ-LOEXU/0.jpg)
Breslov Rabbi
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 10, 2010, 10:12:00 AM
Here is the picture of one of my Rabbis Rabbis, Rabbi Shalom Arush is the Rosh Yeshiva of Chut Shel Chesed in Jerusalem, is the spiritual leader of a branch of Breslov Chassidus and Rabbi Lazer Brodys personal Rabbi..

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Shalom_Arush.jpg/800px-Shalom_Arush.jpg)
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Dr. Dan on June 10, 2010, 01:39:35 PM
Wonga, very interesting observation about Israeli allowing non Jewish "Jews" to make aliya to Israel to offset the growth of the religious communities.  It's not a good thing.

One of the best ways to fix this is to come from underneath everybody and to instill Kahanist (religious zionist) views to the people and change the mentality.

In the early 90s when 1 million ex-Soviets were quickly imported in to Israel, and complaints were made that 80% were not Halachically Jewish, and that of them 25% had no Jewish blood in them at all, the verminous Yossi Sarid said that they made "a good antidote to the Haredim by setting off their numbers!". The same Yossi Sarid who is advocating importing immediately at least 1 million plain Ethiopian Blacks in to Israel!

(http://eranlam.com/wp-content/gallery/portraits/yossi-sarid.jpg)

Rather than see Kahanists take power, both Chillonim and Haredim would literally end the Medina: it goes that deep! "The war against the Erev Rav is more important and more dangerous than that of the war against Esau & Ishmael: the Geulah depends on it" (Vilna Gaon).


"At the time of a Kahanist Government, any Jewish traitors will be executed immediately!"  (Chaim's former r.h. man, Yosef ben Meir z"l 2002).
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: MassuhDGoodName on June 10, 2010, 03:14:03 PM
Re:  Sarid and other vermin

Every nation has its traitors, but only Israel has traitors so criminally insane and suicidal as the Sarids, Fahimas, and Vannunus.

There's not even a torture capable of repaying these monsters!

"Immediate execution" would be too light a punishment when one takes into consideration both the gravity of their crimes together with their psychotically suicidal and genocidal mindset.

In all the annals of history since time began, has there ever been a nation or people on all the Earth which produced such evil?

I don't understand how they all haven't long ago been dispatched with a bullet to the head.

Such incomprehensible treason like this could remove the stigma which we in the West associate with the punishments traditionally meted out by Asiatic governments.

The potentates of the East have throughout history handed down edicts of "guilt by blood" whereby even distant cousins of someone as treasonous as Sarid and Fahima would be declared guilty, summarily rounded up, and imprisoned or executed -- guilty by being a blood relative of a known traitor.

Such mass punishment served as a warning to the rest of the population; terrifying them into submission and obedience.

It was also considered a form of "insurance" whereby the ruler would hopefully eliminate any others sharing a possibly inherited tendency towards rebelliousness.

Such practices were regularly used by both Saddam Hussein and the Shah of Iran, and were used by as evidence justifying their being removed from power by America.

If the current crop of Jewish Traitors is any indication of what our ancestral Middle Eastern homeland is capable of producing, then perhaps the concept of "cruel and unusual punishment" deserves another look.




Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 10, 2010, 03:16:36 PM
wonga,

SINAT CHINAM!!!

you say that Haredim are your enemy... Well, now I know why I don't accept a single thing you say... You are deluded and you are certainly not a Jew... Jews don't speak Lashon Hara such as this against righteous Jews. Kahanists are not the only Jews who will be around during the Messianic times... I don't know where you come up with such drivel..

Maybe wonga wants to take it on himself to exterminate all the Chabad and Breslov Chassids... You and Ben will make good bedmates...

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 10, 2010, 04:33:51 PM
A birth curve is not a straight line. It suddenly exponentially takes off dramatically!


Yes but people with low birthrates don't magically disappear.   You are not speaking mathematically.

And certainly the low birthrate people won't disappear when they are the demographic in control of the apparatus of state.   They will do everything in their power to maintain themselves and their vice grip on all aspects of Israeli society, including importing more goyim if necessary, destroying the entire Dati Leumi camp, and creating a Muslim Arab Fakestinian Terrorist state (think, the british palestine mandate methods for how that benefits them).   
Importing more goyim just to spite the will of the Jewish people is a morbid thought.  G-d forbid it ever happens.  Do secular Jews truly hate religious Jews who want to be governed by more traditional Jewish values [this is what the Dati Leumi are, yes?] that much that they would turn Israel into basically a non-Jewish state?  If so, why do you think that reason is?  What can good Jews do to remove the powers that be from control before they have a chance to do any of what may happen as you see?

They are willing to do anything to stay in power.   It's not "secular Jews" in general, it's the Israeli regime and the leftist apparatus.   Many secular Jews are simply zionists.   It's the regime that seeks to bolster its own power with every last breath and will do anything it takes, including destroying the entire dati leumi societies, including compromising on suicidal retreats from the homeland and handing over money power and arms to terrorists.  Thus the expulsion from Aza, the coming/intended expulsions from Yosh (Lo alenu), and the daily destruction of outposts, shuls, farms, etc in Yosh.    The Dati Leumi are more of a threat than the haredim because the dati leumi aspire to national prominence and involvement in leadership and all fields.   The haredim laregly sit on the sidelines and thus pose no threat to the establishment.

The "rabim" don't understand most of these issues and simply complain about haredi this and haredi that, yet they fail to see what the establishment surely understands is that politically the haredi society is in the pockets and in the control of the regime and to the regime's benefit.  So all the laborites, kadimaites, likudniks, etc etc should be thanking the haredim.

Thanks for explaining this.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 10, 2010, 04:51:07 PM
In the early 90s when 1 million ex-Soviets were quickly imported in to Israel, and complaints were made that 80% were not Halachically Jewish, and that of them 25% had no Jewish blood in them at all, the verminous Yossi Sarid said that they made "a good antidote to the Haredim by setting off their numbers!". The same Yossi Sarid who is advocating importing immediately at least 1 million plain Ethiopian Blacks in to Israel!

(http://eranlam.com/wp-content/gallery/portraits/yossi-sarid.jpg)

Rather than see Kahanists take power, both Chillonim and Haredim would literally end the Medina: it goes that deep! "The war against the Erev Rav is more important and more dangerous than that of the war against Esau & Ishmael: the Geulah depends on it" (Vilna Gaon).


"At the time of a Kahanist Government, any Jewish traitors will be executed immediately!"  (Chaim's former r.h. man, Yosef ben Meir z"l 2002).
I went and did some reading on this Yossi Sarid fellow, he appears to be a major league [censored] who is at odds with the fact he was born Jewish.  Vermin indeed.  God forbid, importing 1 million non-Jew blacks from Ethiopia would be the ultimate act of treason.  What a catastrophe, God forbid.  God forbid, such would be a decimation to Israel, truly this man is horrible.  1 million savage land leeches [I'm sure they would all be well educated and ripe and ready to jump into Israel's technology industry, and not eager to siphon off the efforts of the hardworking and educated], in ISRAEL, God forbid.

Why are Haredim so opposed to Kahanism?  Rabbi Kahane based his opinions and Tanakh and Talmud, how can these religious Jews have such distance from our Rabbis vision?
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 10, 2010, 05:09:35 PM
Ariel,

I believe the simple explanation is the old saying "Ask two Jews a question, get three opinions..."

Even in the times of the Talmud there could be two Great Rabbis who would hold differing opinions.

I believe wonga66 will claim that the Chassidim or Haredim are Erev Rav which I believe is complete Bullcrepe..

The question comes down to what exactly Zionism is... Is it the secular zionism which created the state of Israel? If that is what is talked about it is clear that the religious would oppose it because a non-religious Israel is not what Hashem wanted and the religious Jews believe that Hashem will only allow the Jews to occupy the land when we accept the Torah which he gave us...

The Torah says at least 2 times that the land will vomit the Jewish people out if they reject his Torah. Read the Tochacha a couple of times and it will be clear that Jews only inherit the land if we accept the Torah, and live by it's precepts...

So the problem is that most of these Chassids and Haredim look at the current state and say this is not what Hashem wanted. Can this state be saved? I am one who believes it can... But the current leaders in Israel have to go... I believe that Kahanism is a way to save the current state of Israel by working within the government...

Here is what the Breslov site says about Zionism..

http://www.breslov.org/blog/?tag=zionism

Quote
Question:
Do Breslov Chasidim belive in Zionism? Do they belive in a Jewish State as well as Eretz Yisrael being the homeland of the Am Yisrael? From what I understand there is a split in the breslov world. Can you please clarify this for me? Does Breslov make up part of the Eda Haredit?

Answer:
In my opinion it depends on what you mean by Zionism. If you were simply referring to “Zionism” as the love of Eretz Yisrael and our belief that it was given to the Jewish people eternally and that eventually we will return to it, then there is no doubt that every Breslover is a Zionist. There was no bigger lover of the Land of Israel than Rebbe Nachman. His books are filled with praise for Eretz Yisrael and of advice in regards to gaining its kidusha/holiness. It is know that Rebbe Nachman himself overtook an extremely dangerous journey, whose original purpose was only to walk a few steps in the Land and then return to his Chassidim. Rebbe Nachman told his Chassidim that anyone who wants to be a real Jew, must visit the Land.

Now if you are referring to the modern political Zionist movement founded by Theodore Herzl amongst others, simply put, Breslov is not a political movement. Firstly, the Rebbe passed away on Sukkot 1810, the Zionist Movement was not founded until the end of the 19th century, so the Rebbe definitely did not say anything about it. The mesorah-traditions we have in Breslov rarely contains political views. We believe that the Rebbe being the Tzaddik Emes/True Tzaadik is constantly doing whatever is in his power to bring every Jew closer to God and the truth. This goal and process stands head and tails above all political beliefs and groups.

I once heard a story from the grandson of the great anti-Zionist Reb Shmuel Shapiro. His grandfather was once lovingly dancing with another Breslover who was very Zionistic. When Reb Shmuel was asked why he would dance with this fellow, he replied something to the effect that their personal hiskasherut/connection to Rebbe Nachman is much larger than any political disputes. Some Breslovers may choose to be Zionistic, well others may choose the opposite, but in the end we will be judged by how much we followed the Eitzos/Advice of the Tzaddik and by how much we strived to pursue truth. Everything else is trivial.

Hope this helps,
Yossi Katz
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: TheCoon on June 10, 2010, 05:25:21 PM
So since most of these chassidim don't really make much effort to go live in Israel and make change, they're kind of just sitting back and hoping God will topple the secular Israeli government and set the stage for their return? Am I understanding right or wrong? I've always been curious why many chassidim seem to make no effort to live in Israel yet are obviously Torah-observent Jews.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: muman613 on June 10, 2010, 05:27:06 PM
So since most of these chassidim don't really make much effort to go live in Israel and make change, they're kind of just sitting back and hoping G-d will topple the secular Israeli government and set the stage for their return? Am I understanding right or wrong? I've always been curious why many chassidim seem to make no effort to live in Israel yet are obviously Torah-observent Jews.

In my opinion there has been a failure of the Rabbis in America... This is another story..

Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: Ari Ben-Canaan on June 10, 2010, 05:49:01 PM
Ariel,

I believe the simple explanation is the old saying "Ask two Jews a question, get three opinions..."

Even in the times of the Talmud there could be two Great Rabbis who would hold differing opinions.

I believe wonga66 will claim that the Chassidim or Haredim are Erev Rav which I believe is complete Bullcrepe..

The question comes down to what exactly Zionism is... Is it the secular zionism which created the state of Israel? If that is what is talked about it is clear that the religious would oppose it because a non-religious Israel is not what Hashem wanted and the religious Jews believe that Hashem will only allow the Jews to occupy the land when we accept the Torah which he gave us...

The Torah says at least 2 times that the land will vomit the Jewish people out if they reject his Torah. Read the Tochacha a couple of times and it will be clear that Jews only inherit the land if we accept the Torah, and live by it's precepts...

So the problem is that most of these Chassids and Haredim look at the current state and say this is not what Hashem wanted. Can this state be saved? I am one who believes it can... But the current leaders in Israel have to go... I believe that Kahanism is a way to save the current state of Israel by working within the government...

Here is what the Breslov site says about Zionism..

http://www.breslov.org/blog/?tag=zionism

Quote
Question:
Do Breslov Chasidim belive in Zionism? Do they belive in a Jewish State as well as Eretz Yisrael being the homeland of the Am Yisrael? From what I understand there is a split in the breslov world. Can you please clarify this for me? Does Breslov make up part of the Eda Haredit?

Answer:
In my opinion it depends on what you mean by Zionism. If you were simply referring to “Zionism” as the love of Eretz Yisrael and our belief that it was given to the Jewish people eternally and that eventually we will return to it, then there is no doubt that every Breslover is a Zionist. There was no bigger lover of the Land of Israel than Rebbe Nachman. His books are filled with praise for Eretz Yisrael and of advice in regards to gaining its kidusha/holiness. It is know that Rebbe Nachman himself overtook an extremely dangerous journey, whose original purpose was only to walk a few steps in the Land and then return to his Chassidim. Rebbe Nachman told his Chassidim that anyone who wants to be a real Jew, must visit the Land.

Now if you are referring to the modern political Zionist movement founded by Theodore Herzl amongst others, simply put, Breslov is not a political movement. Firstly, the Rebbe passed away on Sukkot 1810, the Zionist Movement was not founded until the end of the 19th century, so the Rebbe definitely did not say anything about it. The mesorah-traditions we have in Breslov rarely contains political views. We believe that the Rebbe being the Tzaddik Emes/True Tzaadik is constantly doing whatever is in his power to bring every Jew closer to G-d and the truth. This goal and process stands head and tails above all political beliefs and groups.

I once heard a story from the grandson of the great anti-Zionist Reb Shmuel Shapiro. His grandfather was once lovingly dancing with another Breslover who was very Zionistic. When Reb Shmuel was asked why he would dance with this fellow, he replied something to the effect that their personal hiskasherut/connection to Rebbe Nachman is much larger than any political disputes. Some Breslovers may choose to be Zionistic, well others may choose the opposite, but in the end we will be judged by how much we followed the Eitzos/Advice of the Tzaddik and by how much we strived to pursue truth. Everything else is trivial.

Hope this helps,
Yossi Katz


That is interesting.  I always like hearing the Breslov side of things.  It seems to me that I can agree with both arguments at the same time.  I am very supportive of Israel, as we all are, and like many of us I wish Torah played a bigger role in Israel's government.  It is a heavy moment because secular Jews appear to have the majority of the power in Israel, but I truly believe this is only that, a moment.  I can easily sympathize with any Torah Jew if they are troubled by the role of secularism in the ruling parties of Israel.

I just watched a 60 or 70 minute speech from Rabbi Kahane yesterday, it was posted on the forum wall [he spoke to Noachides in a convention of theirs, I believe you commented in the thread], and he made a pretty good explanation why we were given the State of Israel again even though many Jews are not Torah observant, including many of the Zionist pioneers.  Rabbi explains that HaShem did not grant Israel's statehood because we were good Jews, not at all.  HaShem granted us Israel once again because of the Chillul HaShem of the goyim nations. -- From this I walk away thinking Jewish sovereignty over Israel occurred for the sake of creating Kiddush HaShem to replace the Chillul HaShem in the world [attacking the Jewish people for being Jewish is an attack on HaShem Himself], it is to make clear to the goyim of the world HaShem exists and can do anything.  People said because of 2,000 years of torment in exile and the Holocaust, "surely the Jewish God does not exist, or He has abandoned His people who He had a covenant with".  By bringing forth Israel once again HaShem shows those who wish to disbelieve that they are wrong, and our God always keeps His word, and He will never let us be destroyed, and for the sake of Kiddush HaShem and for the disbelieving eyes of the goyim [or even Jews who were so traumatized by these events they too did not believe], not because we are good Torah Jews. -- Of course now is the time to honor HaShem and immerse ourselves back in Torah and to live lives of Mitzvoth.  -- I'm not sure if I get everything the Rabbi says [I'm no Gaon!], but things feel more understandable to me now about how the modern State of Israel came to be.  I can see the both sides of the Zionist argument with Torah Jews now [and a possible resolve], and I can understand pro-Zionist secular Jews [this is our legal homeland], I just don't get anti-Zionist secular Jews I suppose.
Title: Re: A 100% Haredi world by 2060: the future is "Black"!
Post by: ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ on June 11, 2010, 12:04:22 PM
Haredis are interesting, Issue should not be made on their clothes. Whats wrong if they got a unique tradition, yet follow the spiritual torah way of life. I do think clothes are just traditional thing, but underlying culture is the name. Guys come to India and see, there are almost 50 traditions in India, a Hindu in West India will not look or dress like Hindu in East. As long as they follow the hindu philosophy we are fine with it. I know some Indian Jewish friends who dress and have indian mannerisms, but they are devout Jewish.