There is no good news in this story. None. It's sad, and it's endemic of the nightmares today's LGBT youth continue to face every. single. day. Asher Brown, a 13-year-old eighth grader at Hamilton Middle School outside Houston, shot himself in the head last week after being "bullied to death."
Asher was tormented for being small. For his religious beliefs. For the way he dressed. And for being gay. His bullies acted out mock gay sex acts in phys ed class.
As is growing increasingly typical, Asher's mother and stepfather Amy (pictured below) and David Truong say they notified administrators at the Harris, Texas school about how their son was being taunted. They say it's been a year and a half since they first alerted the school, but no action was taken. Calls to the school went unanswered. The school, meanwhile, says it never received any calls. School district spokeswoman Kelli Durham insists no students or teachers registered complaints, either. Update: Durham says the school received an email from Amy earlier this month, but it was about problems at home, not school bullying.
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I can also vouch for the fact the schools don't do jack sh1t to protect kids. It's almost as if they see the kids facing this kind of persecution as being the problem rather than the kids tormenting them as being the problem.
I am sorry if it sounds like I am cruel in my position. I am just so tired reading about young people so confused about sexual issues because of the evil designs of the homosexual agenda.
I really find it hard to believe that age 13 he could even begin to understand what sexual attraction was.
Mr Uman, how did you end up on that website?
I agree that kids today are severely lacking in the areas of empathy and compassion. It is sad to see this as these two traits are very important in the Jewish religion. So many of our commandments relate to issues between man and his fellow. The purpose of these commands is to create a righteous people who treat each other with proper respect.
I am sorry if it sounds like I am cruel in my position. I am just so tired reading about young people so confused about sexual issues because of the evil designs of the homosexual agenda.
I really find it hard to believe that age 13 he could even begin to understand what sexual attraction was.
I agree that kids today are severely lacking in the areas of empathy and compassion. It is sad to see this as these two traits are very important in the Jewish religion. So many of our commandments relate to issues between man and his fellow. The purpose of these commands is to create a righteous people who treat each other with proper respect.
I am sorry if it sounds like I am cruel in my position. I am just so tired reading about young people so confused about sexual issues because of the evil designs of the homosexual agenda.
I really find it hard to believe that age 13 he could even begin to understand what sexual attraction was.
i understood most of the sexual stuff by 10 but only became active at late 12. (by active i mean everything starts functioning)
I am sorry if it sounds like I am cruel in my position. I am just so tired reading about young people so confused about sexual issues because of the evil designs of the homosexual agenda.
It did sound awfully cruel for you to say you didn't mourn him when he was just an innocent child who was being attacked and driven to suicide. If he was a Jewish kid being treated that way, not for being gay, but for being Jewish, or wearing his hair a certain way associated with Judaism, etc. I bet you'd be severely outraged. A child is a child Muman, and he and his family deserve to have some compassion for what happened to him and what his family is going through.QuoteI really find it hard to believe that age 13 he could even begin to understand what sexual attraction was.
He learned from the school curriculum and from mass media that it was possible he might be gay. This was a very bad influence and if he hadn't had this pre-suggested to him, maybe he wouldn't have thought of it. All the kids learn this now.
As an adolescent just beginning to have sexual feelings and going through puberty, he was trying to discover who he was. Instead of being allowed to discover this in a safe environment, he was driven to suicide.
wow people are claiming they are gay when they probably didnt grow pubes yet?
I am sorry if it sounds like I am cruel in my position. I am just so tired reading about young people so confused about sexual issues because of the evil designs of the homosexual agenda.
It did sound awfully cruel for you to say you didn't mourn him when he was just an innocent child who was being attacked and driven to suicide. If he was a Jewish kid being treated that way, not for being gay, but for being Jewish, or wearing his hair a certain way associated with Judaism, etc. I bet you'd be severely outraged. A child is a child Muman, and he and his family deserve to have some compassion for what happened to him and what his family is going through.QuoteI really find it hard to believe that age 13 he could even begin to understand what sexual attraction was.
He learned from the school curriculum and from mass media that it was possible he might be gay. This was a very bad influence and if he hadn't had this pre-suggested to him, maybe he wouldn't have thought of it. All the kids learn this now.
As an adolescent just beginning to have sexual feelings and going through puberty, he was trying to discover who he was. Instead of being allowed to discover this in a safe environment, he was driven to suicide.
So now the schools and the media caused him to be gay??? The lengths we will go through to find something in the liberal stream to attribute to causing homosexuality, but we will never even remotely consider the possibility that this is something that someone is born with.
I do not mourn the death of Asher Brown.Ex-F'ing-scuse me?!? Did I just hear that right? So, you think it's okay for kids to be mercilessly persecuted while administrators and officials deliberately stand idly by? As far as I am concerned suicide was his only option, the way the authorities handled it.
I can also vouch for the fact the schools don't do jack sh1t to protect kids.I can guarantee you that if Asher Brown were black or Arab and the kids who picked on him were white, that 100 FBI agents would be investigating the whole school as part of a federal hate-crime investigation.
I do not mourn the death of Asher Brown.Ex-F'ing-scuse me?!? Did I just hear that right? So, you think it's okay for kids to be mercilessly persecuted while administrators and officials deliberately stand idly by? As far as I am concerned suicide was his only option, the way the authorities handled it.
I can also vouch for the fact the schools don't do jack sh1t to protect kids.I can guarantee you that if Asher Brown were black or Arab and the kids who picked on him were white, that 100 FBI agents would be investigating the whole school as part of a federal hate-crime investigation.
I am sorry if it sounds like I am cruel in my position. I am just so tired reading about young people so confused about sexual issues because of the evil designs of the homosexual agenda.
It did sound awfully cruel for you to say you didn't mourn him when he was just an innocent child who was being attacked and driven to suicide. If he was a Jewish kid being treated that way, not for being gay, but for being Jewish, or wearing his hair a certain way associated with Judaism, etc. I bet you'd be severely outraged. A child is a child Muman, and he and his family deserve to have some compassion for what happened to him and what his family is going through.QuoteI really find it hard to believe that age 13 he could even begin to understand what sexual attraction was.
He learned from the school curriculum and from mass media that it was possible he might be gay. This was a very bad influence and if he hadn't had this pre-suggested to him, maybe he wouldn't have thought of it. All the kids learn this now.
As an adolescent just beginning to have sexual feelings and going through puberty, he was trying to discover who he was. Instead of being allowed to discover this in a safe environment, he was driven to suicide.
So now the schools and the media caused him to be gay??? The lengths we will go through to find something in the liberal stream to attribute to causing homosexuality, but we will never even remotely consider the possibility that this is something that someone is born with.
Once again we will say that science has yet to find a 'gay' gene which causes a person to be 'born' as a homosexual. This has also been shown that two twins who are born with the same genetic codes, one may become gay and the other may not become gay. How can this be something someone is born with?
In most cases, except when a person does not have the sexual organs, the decision to engage in sexual behavior comes only from a persons choice. A human being has control over his or her urges, unless that being was taught otherwise...
Re: "Simon Levay at the Salk Institute has already performed studies showing that the part of the hypothalamus, that deals with sexuality and desire, is significantly smaller or missing in homosexuals. ":::D
But that's only because one of the schwartzes who works in the lab was going around late at night cutting open the heads of all who volunteered for the experiment and eating their hypothalamuses!
When they finally caught up with him and demanded to know why he was eating all the patients' brains, he replied:
" Y U cair wut happenz 2 bunch o' Queers ? " ... "Now Skyuuuuze Me, White Man !!! "
If schools would re-institute DODGEBALL it would end all of this hateful nonsense.
I'm very serious.
It would allow those who want to gang up on a "sissy" to throw balls at him, which in turn would allow the intended victim to not be hit by being well coordinated, and which in turn would allow the "sissY" to smack the living cr_p out of the bullies with a dodgeball thrown well once the sides switch.
Constructive release of pent up aggression and testosterone overloads.
Boxing would be good also.
Young adolescent males must be allowed to vent in normal ways or the end result is this kind of insanity showing up every day.
Just my opinion.
I never knew anybody to kill either a queer or kill themselves for being bullied in the days I was growing up.
Nor did anyone even consider carrying around a firearm with them.
Muman,Absolutely.
I often agree with your thinking, but this was really unkind. This 13 year old felt like he had no options. I have news for you, that is not the fault of this child, nor the gay community. Kids do pick on others kids for being perceived as gay, sometimes so viciously it's hard to believe. It's absolutely plausible that a 13 year old would have a glimpse into his future sexual orientation. Who is helping these youth? Not the gay community, not us, so who? Before you condemn this young man, ask yourself what have you done to make the world a place where this young man could have found an outstretched helping hand? Condemning and rebuking is the easy part (for all of us).
Muman,
I often agree with your thinking, but this was really unkind. This 13 year old felt like he had no options. I have news for you, that is not the fault of this child, nor the gay community. Kids do pick on others kids for being perceived as gay, sometimes so viciously it's hard to believe. It's absolutely plausible that a 13 year old would have a glimpse into his future sexual orientation. Who is helping these youth? Not the gay community, not us, so who? Before you condemn this young man, ask yourself what have you done to make the world a place where this young man could have found an outstretched helping hand? Condemning and rebuking is the easy part (for all of us).
If schools would re-institute DODGEBALL it would end all of this hateful nonsense.
I'm very serious.
The nature/nurture argument has been going on for a very long time and will continue to be debated forever. Regardless of what the real cause or combination of causes might be, the bottom line is that the real disability and disease lies in the "attitudes" towards homosexuality. That's something that is completely in someone's control and is a choice. That is something that is only influenced by outside forces like media, family influences, religion, insecurities of their own sexualities, etc. Also, the higher rate of suicide among homosexuals is NOT due to them being homosexual. It's a result of the homophobia and the bullying that they experience from society. That's what caused this poor kid to take his life. Society does not cause homosexuality, but it definitely causes homophobia which is what the real disease is. I know that nobody on this forum will agree with me on this, but frankly, I really don't care.
JTFEnthusiast2,
Im sorry you feel that way, but I do not share your opinion. I believe a lot of people have experienced bullying in their lifetime. I know that I have, and I survived, and I never had any suicidal feelings.
I doubt that at 13 a boy knows what his sexual leanings are. I don't want to reveal a lot about my younger years, but there was a time when people thought I was gay because I did not date until later in my years. When I was very young I was caught in a bathroom with a girl, and in some ways I always felt like I didn't want to take advantage of women so I would not be macho or anything. I also consider my parents divorce to have had an effect on me also...
But my point is this... Why did this kid feel like he was gay? Who told him this? It is the current school system which is feeding them the lies that that lifestyle is acceptable. The whole moral system has become corrupted because of the gay agenda in the school systems. Luckily I was not exposed to it, and it is probrobly the reason I was able to survive through all the experiences, as a high school nerd...
I do not judge others often, but when I do I do so because it makes me sad to think that there will be many more kids committing suicide in order to get attention. The system doesnt care about these kids, it wants to have immoral sexual relationships accepted just like heterosexual marriage.
I do not mourn the death of Asher Brown.. I will use it as an example of the perverse nature of the Gay agenda, using young children in their attempt to make abomination acceptable...
It is a bit humorous to hear that from you, the one who constantly blathers on and on about the infidelities and immorality of all kinds of lame artists. Like Eminem who I had barely heard of in recent years until you started on a binge, spreading gossip and slander every day. You constantly bleat out the hatred you feel for artists like lady gaga(ironically enough, this post was in a thread about your hatred for a celebrity you don't like, Roger Waters)
spreading antisemitic libels are far more injurious to the world than sexual infidelity(as if the sexually immoral artists aren't anti-Semites)
Torah has no explicit command against Lesbian relations.
I am wont to say that those who violate Shabbat are just as culpable as those who engage in Homosexual sex.
But my anger toward the whole situation remains...I'm angry too. I hope that all of the POS kids who made this poor guy's life a living hell, and the school administrators that thought it was so much fun to sit and watch, all get terminal cancer.
I am not a DBF fan, lets say...:laugh: :laugh: :::D :laugh:
He wouldn't feel that way if it was a Jewish kid.
There is a complete double standard. I bet you if some kid was being persecuted for being Jewish he'd have a completely different attitude.
Your futile irrational paranoia passes the border of anti-Semitism.You need to take your meds.
PRAISE THE DIFFERENCE!
When Jews are persecuted we are burnt, hammered, slew, hanged, raped, robbed, humiliated, etc.
When this kid was "persecuted", he merely had his homo face unmasked.
How DARE you compare between persecution of Jews and "persecution" (a little prank this kid took too seriously!)? You just show your real value for Jewish lives.
I'd rather have all little homos dead than have ONE Jew have his nail scratched. Yes, I know it sounds racist
for StormFronters like you, but that's how Jews do - care for Jews above all.
Ok a lot of you are missing a few important points.Good post.
1. Puberty for boys can start as early as 10 like it did to me. At 5th grade or even sooner they have sex ed class that where in my day in the 80's they separated the boys from girls and talked about biology. No sex pictures.
2. Should it matter if gays are born that way or made an easy choice to do evil homosexual acts. Does that change your opinion on whether homosexuality is evil behavior? We need to be compassionate and encourage them to stop doing the behavior. We should curse those who encourage it or who are activists for it.
3. This suicide is a tragedy. Bullying is bad mmmmkay. What is also terrible is now the gay activists are shamelessly going to use this to help their cause and too many Americans have become so brainwashed with political correctness that they still cant say what I just said.
4. A man attracted to males might not be able to help it. That part isn't the sin. Like straight men are attracted to the idea of their own fantasies. It's the behavior which is the problem.
[
You need to take your meds.
He deserved the humiliation as a faggot. His death is his own decision and nobody else's.
Contrast Ron's negro-like savagery towards others he disagrees with to Dr. Dan's compassionate and rational attitude.
Ron is young and ignorant though so hopefully he will mature and feel shame for his youthful stupidity.
Contrast Ron's negro-like savagery towards others he disagrees with to Dr. Dan's compassionate and rational attitude. Ron is young and ignorant though so hopefully he will mature and feel shame for his youthful stupidity.Don't you dare compare yourself to Dr. Dan. You are the anti-Semitic version of Ron.
Contrast Ron's negro-like savagery towards others he disagrees with to Dr. Dan's compassionate and rational attitude. Ron is young and ignorant though so hopefully he will mature and feel shame for his youthful stupidity.Don't you dare compare yourself to Dr. Dan. You are the anti-Semitic version of Ron.
Says the Negro (that's how you call yourself) Mr. Jooz are responsible for Obama.And average Chinese are Nazis that all deserve death, says the crazy teenager. I'm still waiting for some evidence from you that that is true, btw.
This young boy did not deserve to be ruthlessly bullied while school administrators sat back and did nothing. I think it's very sad that this child felt he had no other choice than to take his own life.:clap: :clap: :clap:
And frankly, I'm surprised at some of the callous comments here! Have any of you ever experienced severe depression and feelings of worthlessness? Do you know what it's like to have almost no appetite and to waste away as a result? Do you know what it's like to get sick every other week as a result of your body wasting away? Or how about wishing you were dead?
I have a big problem with bullying. Now granted not everyone is going to like each other. But kids should at least learn to be civil to one another, regardless of how someone looks. If anything, the parents should have encouraged their son to fight back against those bullies and to let them have it. Unfortunately, the opposite takes place. All these articles about bullies go on about how bullies pick on people who are shy/different, and how the victims should just tell a teacher, and otherwise just ignore the bully.
That takes some nerve for an Israeli to say another country is a slave to America the way your president Netanyahu grovels to Obama and has to ask him permission to build houses on his own territory.
As far as I'm concerned, loving Jews doesn't mean loving an animal like you. What makes you think any gentile should love YOU? Because you live in Israel and hate arabs? Your words prove you're an evil and depraved person. Just as the self-haters cause problems for Jews, fascists like yourself cause problems for the Jewish people. You think G-d's commandment for gentiles involves grovelling at the feet of Jews and worshipping them like gods who are infalliable. In fact, you think gentiles are all evil and Jews are the only people who should be allowed to live! You're denying G-d's will for the Jews to be a light unto the nations, so don't tell me I should lick your feet because you were born Jewish. You, Ron Ben Michael, are a pox on the Chosen People, who I do love and hope return to Israel and fulfill biblical prophecy.
Contrast Ron's negro-like savagery towards others he disagrees with to Dr. Dan's compassionate and rational attitude. Ron is young and ignorant though so hopefully he will mature and feel shame for his youthful stupidity.Don't you dare compare yourself to Dr. Dan. You are the anti-Semitic version of Ron.
In this case, I think the boy's parents are to blame. They should not have left their son in this school, knowing that the school administrators did nothing. It was their responsibility either to make sure their son was not bullied any more or to leave the school.
Ron and The Coon are a match made in heaven!
You're the Xtian version of Ismail Hania.I would laugh at that but I don't know who that is. I'm going to laugh anyway though because I can guess. Yeah, I'm like some Muslim dude. :laugh:
This young boy did not deserve to be ruthlessly bullied while school administrators sat back and did nothing. I think it's very sad that this child felt he had no other choice than to take his own life.
And frankly, I'm surprised at some of the callous comments here! Have any of you ever experienced severe depression and feelings of worthlessness? Do you know what it's like to have almost no appetite and to waste away as a result? Do you know what it's like to get sick every other week as a result of your body wasting away? Or how about wishing you were dead?
I have a big problem with bullying. Now granted not everyone is going to like each other. But kids should at least learn to be civil to one another, regardless of how someone looks. If anything, the parents should have encouraged their son to fight back against those bullies and to let them have it. Unfortunately, the opposite takes place. All these articles about bullies go on about how bullies pick on people who are shy/different, and how the victims should just tell a teacher, and otherwise just ignore the bully.
In school people have been trying to bully me for being from Russian descent. They called me Neo Nazi, filthy Ashkenazi, etc. I know what I'm talking about even though you doubt my intelligence, maturity and sanity. Homos deserve to be bullied because it makes people understand homosexuality is not acceptable, never; Arabs are sometimes being bullied in Jewish schools - would you declare Jihad in their defense as well?Lisa is probably the most sober-minded person on JTF; you really should listen to her before making these kinds of statements. Now, I think you and Coon have some kissing-and-making-up to do (or just kissing).
Bullying is not always wrong.
Arabs are sometimes being bullied in Jewish schoolsI do not believe that for a second but I hope you realize that now that you wrote this Pedofront and kin are going to be repeating it ad nauseum.
I would laugh at that but I don't know who that is. I'm going to laugh anyway though because I can guess. Yeah, I'm like some Muslim dude. :laugh:
you say random German-Americans are responsible for the Holocaust,
I would have had mercy on you for your stupidity and insanity if you wasn't a Xtian.Thank you. Now, I'd like to see a coherent argument as to how random people of German descent, who never lived in Germany and have no relatives there, are morally responsible for the Shoah.
Arabs are sometimes being bullied in Jewish schoolsI do not believe that for a second but I hope you realize that now that you wrote this Pedofront and kin are going to be repeating it ad nauseum.
I don't care what Pedofront says or not, there are some occasions (though rare ones) that Arabs are being bullied (thank G-D, an invader needs to know its place) but if you see bullying the enemies of Israel as wrong you're a disgusting hypocrite Nazi and I end this discussion right now.Umm sure Israeli Coon. I didn't agree that it ever happened to begin with but somehow I am saying that it is "wrong". Nice way to pull words out of the sky.
This young boy did not deserve to be ruthlessly bullied while school administrators sat back and did nothing. I think it's very sad that this child felt he had no other choice than to take his own life.
And frankly, I'm surprised at some of the callous comments here! Have any of you ever experienced severe depression and feelings of worthlessness? Do you know what it's like to have almost no appetite and to waste away as a result? Do you know what it's like to get sick every other week as a result of your body wasting away? Or how about wishing you were dead?
I have a big problem with bullying. Now granted not everyone is going to like each other. But kids should at least learn to be civil to one another, regardless of how someone looks. If anything, the parents should have encouraged their son to fight back against those bullies and to let them have it. Unfortunately, the opposite takes place. All these articles about bullies go on about how bullies pick on people who are shy/different, and how the victims should just tell a teacher, and otherwise just ignore the bully.
In school people have been trying to bully me for being from Russian descent. They called me Neo Nazi, filthy Ashkenazi, etc. I know what I'm talking about even though you doubt my intelligence, maturity and sanity. Homos deserve to be bullied because it makes people understand homosexuality is not acceptable, never; Arabs are sometimes being bullied in Jewish schools - would you declare Jihad in their defense as well?
Bullying is not always wrong.
Thank you. Now, I'd like to see a coherent argument as to how random people of German descent, who never lived in Germany and have no relatives there, are morally responsible for the Shoah.
And ftr Hamas is not the "most dangerous" Islamic organization, its parent group the PA is, which I would have thought you knew.
I don't care what Pedofront says or not, there are some occasions (though rare ones) that Arabs are being bullied (thank G-D, an invader needs to know its place) but if you see bullying the enemies of Israel as wrong you're a disgusting hypocrite Nazi and I end this discussion right now.Umm sure Israeli Coon. I didn't agree that it ever happened to begin with but somehow I am saying that it is "wrong". Nice way to pull words out of the sky.
What were you just trying to write, Lisa?
Before you use an argument you better have some base for it. I see Americans and Germans as different civilizations, and as some of you know, I relate to people judging their culture, not the place they were born at or the language they speak or their "race". I have no problems with Germans who left Germany after Hitler's rise to America because I see that as leaving the evil German culture as a protest against the German people's evil choice and declaration of war against the Jewish people.Ron, you have written before that there should be a Shoah against every single person of German descent anywhere on earth. If that's not crazy I don't know what is. Most German-Americans' ancestors left Germany long before Hitler came to power, like in the 1800s and prior.
Not true. Hamas is:Hamas is the offspring of the PLO. You know that. Hamas came about in the late 80s/early 90s when the first generation of PLO terrorists got old, fat, and lazy and decided to murder Jews with taqqiyah instead of bullets, and to let their offspring do the jihad. Today Hamas is the military wing of the PA, Fatah is the political/governing/taqqiyah branch of it. Hamas are the young guys doing the bombings and shootings, Fatah are the leaders who have convinced Israel to negotiate with it. It's true that there are some tensions in it and sometimes they boil over (primarily Hamas wants a bigger piece of the financial pie), but they are part of the same umbrella organization, the PA, and Hamas would not exist without the PA/PLO.
1.) Much more powerful militarily than Fatah and it was proved in 2007.
2.) I understand what you're saying but the Jews are such a cowardly, dumb (when it comes to their survival) people that they will negotiate with every enemy, the problems lies within the Jewish people's brain and not the words of their enemies.
And as a proof it's enough to see the way a huge part of the Jewish people favors negotiating with Hamas about Shalit.
Then why are you trying to deny it (or not believe it) like it is something wrong?Ron, give us a break. Your attempt to put words in my mouth would be funny if it weren't so contrary to reality. You have been here for a while, you have seen most of my posts about Arabs, and surely you know how I feel about them. You also know how I feel about Israelis tolerating Arabs. So, give it up.
In school people have been trying to bully me for being from Russian descent. They called me Neo Nazi, filthy Ashkenazi, etc. I know what I'm talking about even though you doubt my intelligence, maturity and sanity. Homos deserve to be bullied because it makes people understand homosexuality is not acceptable, never; Arabs are sometimes being bullied in Jewish schools - would you declare Jihad in their defense as well?
Bullying is not always wrong.
KWBRT,
Are you saying that you agree with Ron's odious statements? There are a minority of people on this forum that believe certain forms of fascism are ok, as long as they get to be the ones persecuting others
I think I'm starting to understand Ron's so-called logic, so he thinks it's ok to bully someone as long as they do something or believe in something that Ron doesn't like, in order to teach them that what they are doing or believing is wrong. According to Ron, such people don't have basic human rights.
My last comment on this topic (I hope).
My intention was not to suggest that the bullying was appropriate or justified. It was not to cause others to curse him and his family and all those who transgress the same sexual immorality laws. I just was upset at the fact that the gay community was holding this child up as an example of how terrible those who cause shame on people who follow the gay lifestyle are.
But please, all readers, realize that my post was not made from hatred against the young boy. He may not have really known what was going on. He was a victim of the indoctrination of kids by the mainstream media and even some of the school systems in this country.
My last comment on this topic (I hope).
My intention was not to suggest that the bullying was appropriate or justified. It was not to cause others to curse him and his family and all those who transgress the same sexual immorality laws. I just was upset at the fact that the gay community was holding this child up as an example of how terrible those who cause shame on people who follow the gay lifestyle are. There are many good reasons people are disgusted by this (gay sex), and I will not go into whether this desire is a born trait or not, that is not the point. There are many things which are deemed inappropriate according to Jewish moral law, and not all of them are things related to choice or not. Some people have a propensity to steal, they are called kleptomaniacs and will steal the smallest item for the thrill of stealing. Does the Torah make an exception that people who 'are born' kleptomaniacs have an excuse to steal? No, absolutely not...
I am so disgusted with the 'gay agenda' which is trying to persuade the world that having male homosexual relationships are acceptable. And equally wrong is the attempt to make lesbianism hip.
But please, all readers, realize that my post was not made from hatred against the young boy. He may not have really known what was going on. He was a victim of the indoctrination of kids by the mainstream media and even some of the school systems in this country.
PS: I agree that bullying is a plague on society today. I do not condone it...
JTFe - I realize now that perhaps my quip was not understood.
"Spoken like a true Israeli" was not a compliment... I'm saying the attitude reflects the bolshevik and leftist influences that permeate Israel...
JTFe - I realize now that perhaps my quip was not understood.
"Spoken like a true Israeli" was not a compliment... I'm saying the attitude reflects the bolshevik and leftist influences that permeate Israel...
At the age of 10, I knew I was straight since I was attracted to girls, and I never felt it was a choice.
JTFe - I realize now that perhaps my quip was not understood.
"Spoken like a true Israeli" was not a compliment... I'm saying the attitude reflects the bolshevik and leftist influences that permeate Israel...
Are you calling me a Nazi Communist?
Ok people let's clear something. There was a story posted on Friday about a faggot college student who was taped while having cyber sex with his lover - a faggot who was an active Sodomite. The guy committed suicide right after that, because he felt humiliated - and he deserved it. A guy who is merely attracted to men (and I disagree with the argument that is by nature and not a mental illness or a choice) deserves to be rebuked. But a guy who makes other men sin and thus desecrates human body and soul, commits a bestial crime against his brother is a beast that deserves a harsh punishment - and the mildest one should be humiliation for his evil deeds.
I didn't know the story was about another guy because Muman posted it 3 days after the second story was originally posted. So I take my words back because I wasn't talking about this guy (I don't know if he's really gay).
But still, f you DBF for your comparison of me and the Nazi Coon.
I don't agree that some of these comments were 'ok' for the 18 year old 'faggot,' but not for the 13 year old bullying victim. The people that taped the 18 year old and put his private sexual life (it was in his room, not some debauched place where such activity is both immoral and illegal) on the internet to have his body, his self, watched and humiliated by over 40,000 strangers. What is with you people, thinking that this is 'ok,' because he is an "18 year old faggot?" Seriously, what is with you???? Which of you, at 18, would have not wanted to kill yourselves, had you been caught doing something like that, that the world views as perverted? Some of these posts go way way way beyond saying that I believe homosexuality is immoral, against the Bible, and something I believe needs professional attention. So far beyond that I am at a loss for words.
So wait, it's OK to suggest bullying/persecuting/attacking homosexuals only if you know they've committed the gay sex acts?
So wait, it's OK to suggest bullying/persecuting/attacking homosexuals only if you know they've committed the gay sex acts?
So wait, it's OK to suggest bullying/persecuting/attacking homosexuals only if you know they've committed the gay sex acts?
I would have nothing against rebuking homosexuality...Physically harming someone is another story. Verbally assaulting? Well, if he is pro=gay in your face, then he/she should be verbally assaulted and bullied verbally...
So wait, it's OK to suggest bullying/persecuting/attacking homosexuals only if you know they've committed the gay sex acts?
I would have nothing against rebuking homosexuality...Physically harming someone is another story. Verbally assaulting? Well, if he is pro=gay in your face, then he/she should be verbally assaulted and bullied verbally...
Dr. Dan, let's keep it straight so to speak. That is not what this is about. This boy is not responsible for what someone else is possibly going to turn this into. This is about two creeps doing something really creepy and showcasing it for thousands without regard for this person's humanity, never mind legal rights
בס''ד
1. As I said in response to a question on Ask JTF, what was done to the 18 year old was illegal and immoral. That case was also a tragedy.
2. Ron thought that this was a case of someone openly engaging in homosexual activity and openly pursuing the militant homosexual agenda. There is a big difference between that situation and the two cases which we are speaking about. People who have homosexual tendencies should be assisted compassionately to overcome their problem. But those who openly and proudly engage in acts of sodomy and demand acceptance by society do not deserve to be treated like heroes. They are spreading death and evil in the world. These individuals should be condemned.
3. Although these two suicides were tragic, why do they deserve more attention from the news media than the cold-blooded murder every year of tens of thousands of Americans by mostly black criminals? Or the violent rape of millions of American women by mostly black rapists? The "political correctness" in deciding what to place on the front page is grotesque.
JTFe - I realize now that perhaps my quip was not understood.
"Spoken like a true Israeli" was not a compliment... I'm saying the attitude reflects the bolshevik and leftist influences that permeate Israel...
Are you calling me a Nazi Communist?
At the age of 10, I knew I was straight since I was attracted to girls, and I never felt it was a choice.
At that age, girls gave me cooties.
בס''דGood responses as always but three forum members are out of control right now. It's time to do something about it.
1. As I said in response to a question on Ask JTF, what was done to the 18 year old was illegal and immoral. That case was also a tragedy.
2. Ron thought that this was a case of someone openly engaging in homosexual activity and openly pursuing the militant homosexual agenda. There is a big difference between that situation and the two cases which we are speaking about. People who have homosexual tendencies should be assisted compassionately to overcome their problem. But those who openly and proudly engage in acts of sodomy and demand acceptance by society do not deserve to be treated like heroes. They are spreading death and evil in the world. These individuals should be condemned.
3. Although these two suicides were tragic, why do they deserve more attention from the news media than the cold-blooded murder every year of tens of thousands of Americans by mostly black criminals? Or the violent rape of millions of American women by mostly black rapists? The "political correctness" in deciding what to place on the front page is grotesque.
בס''דGood responses as always but three forum members are out of control right now. It's time to do something about it.
1. As I said in response to a question on Ask JTF, what was done to the 18 year old was illegal and immoral. That case was also a tragedy.
2. Ron thought that this was a case of someone openly engaging in homosexual activity and openly pursuing the militant homosexual agenda. There is a big difference between that situation and the two cases which we are speaking about. People who have homosexual tendencies should be assisted compassionately to overcome their problem. But those who openly and proudly engage in acts of sodomy and demand acceptance by society do not deserve to be treated like heroes. They are spreading death and evil in the world. These individuals should be condemned.
3. Although these two suicides were tragic, why do they deserve more attention from the news media than the cold-blooded murder every year of tens of thousands of Americans by mostly black criminals? Or the violent rape of millions of American women by mostly black rapists? The "political correctness" in deciding what to place on the front page is grotesque.
בס''ד
1. The death of a 13 year old child is a tragedy. Bullying a 13 year old should be unacceptable in any school.
2. If a 13 year old child feels that he has homosexual tendencies, G-d forbid, the proper reaction is to compassionately refer the child to an expert who can help him overcome this problem. The child will never be happy in this world, and will have no place in the next world, if he becomes an active homosexual, G-d forbid. Therefore, it is incumbent upon those who care for the child to try to help him overcome this difficulty. Some homosexuals can be cured. Those who cannot be cured must learn to live without homosexual sex, just as many married people feel an urge to commit adultery but they learn to avoid giving in to that evil urge.
3. Ron Ben Michael mistakenly thought that this was an active homosexual who was caught committing homosexual acts. Ron would not have written like this if he had known the details of this case. Ron is not a cruel or mindless person. He is a very kind and just human being who mistakenly thought that this was a completely different case.
I'm happy to see you responding to this in a relatively more compassionate manner. I'm curious to know what type of "expert" the child could be referred to to overcome this problem? If you're referring to psychologists, social workers, psychotherapists, etc., they will not view homosexuality as a mental disorder. There is nowhere in the DSM-IV that classifies homosexuality as a disorder. So then what experts do we refer them to?
I don't completely agree that a homosexual resisting engaging in homosexual sex is the same thing as a married person who is tempted to commit adultry. A heterosexual person in a marriage who is tempted to cheat is still getting some sort of pleasure from his/her spouse, but just wants and desires more. If someone is homosexual and they are in a heterosexual relationship or marriage, they are not getting any of their desires met.
On the one hand, we accuse homosexuals of leading a disgusting lifestyle. But on the other hand, if the homosexual attempts to do the right thing by marrying someone of the opposite sex and creating children and a family, it will eventually lead that person eventually having to come to terms and be honest with himself and his partner and end up getting into a divorce. At that point, we'll accuse homosexuals of breaking up the family unit. So we end up accusing them on both ends. If they follow their desires, they're leading a disgusting and immoral lifestyle. If they deny their true feelings and try to do the right thing by engaging in a heterosexual relationship which ultimately fails, we accuse them of breaking up the family unit. So then what is the solution then? A "one-day-at-a-time" approach simply curtails the behavior. But it does not stop the heart from desiring what it desires.
בס''ד
1. The death of a 13 year old child is a tragedy. Bullying a 13 year old should be unacceptable in any school.
2. If a 13 year old child feels that he has homosexual tendencies, G-d forbid, the proper reaction is to compassionately refer the child to an expert who can help him overcome this problem. The child will never be happy in this world, and will have no place in the next world, if he becomes an active homosexual, G-d forbid. Therefore, it is incumbent upon those who care for the child to try to help him overcome this difficulty. Some homosexuals can be cured. Those who cannot be cured must learn to live without homosexual sex, just as many married people feel an urge to commit adultery but they learn to avoid giving in to that evil urge.
3. Ron Ben Michael mistakenly thought that this was an active homosexual who was caught committing homosexual acts. Ron would not have written like this if he had known the details of this case. Ron is not a cruel or mindless person. He is a very kind and just human being who mistakenly thought that this was a completely different case.
I'm happy to see you responding to this in a relatively more compassionate manner. I'm curious to know what type of "expert" the child could be referred to to overcome this problem? If you're referring to psychologists, social workers, psychotherapists, etc., they will not view homosexuality as a mental disorder. There is nowhere in the DSM-IV that classifies homosexuality as a disorder. So then what experts do we refer them to?
I don't completely agree that a homosexual resisting engaging in homosexual sex is the same thing as a married person who is tempted to commit adultry. A heterosexual person in a marriage who is tempted to cheat is still getting some sort of pleasure from his/her spouse, but just wants and desires more. If someone is homosexual and they are in a heterosexual relationship or marriage, they are not getting any of their desires met.
On the one hand, we accuse homosexuals of leading a disgusting lifestyle. But on the other hand, if the homosexual attempts to do the right thing by marrying someone of the opposite sex and creating children and a family, it will eventually lead that person eventually having to come to terms and be honest with himself and his partner and end up getting into a divorce. At that point, we'll accuse homosexuals of breaking up the family unit. So we end up accusing them on both ends. If they follow their desires, they're leading a disgusting and immoral lifestyle. If they deny their true feelings and try to do the right thing by engaging in a heterosexual relationship which ultimately fails, we accuse them of breaking up the family unit. So then what is the solution then? A "one-day-at-a-time" approach simply curtails the behavior. But it does not stop the heart from desiring what it desires.
Am I one of them?Would you like to be?
I'm happy to see you responding to this in a relatively more compassionate manner. I'm curious to know what type of "expert" the child could be referred to to overcome this problem? If you're referring to psychologists, social workers, psychotherapists, etc., they will not view homosexuality as a mental disorder. There is nowhere in the DSM-IV that classifies homosexuality as a disorder. So then what experts do we refer them to?
I don't completely agree that a homosexual resisting engaging in homosexual sex is the same thing as a married person who is tempted to commit adultry. A heterosexual person in a marriage who is tempted to cheat is still getting some sort of pleasure from his/her spouse, but just wants and desires more. If someone is homosexual and they are in a heterosexual relationship or marriage, they are not getting any of their desires met.
On the one hand, we accuse homosexuals of leading a disgusting lifestyle. But on the other hand, if the homosexual attempts to do the right thing by marrying someone of the opposite sex and creating children and a family, it will eventually lead that person eventually having to come to terms and be honest with himself and his partner and end up getting into a divorce. At that point, we'll accuse homosexuals of breaking up the family unit. So we end up accusing them on both ends. If they follow their desires, they're leading a disgusting and immoral lifestyle. If they deny their true feelings and try to do the right thing by engaging in a heterosexual relationship which ultimately fails, we accuse them of breaking up the family unit. So then what is the solution then? A "one-day-at-a-time" approach simply curtails the behavior. But it does not stop the heart from desiring what it desires.
If a man is attracted to men and he's actually disgusted by women and not attracted to women sexually at all, I don't think it would be a good idea to encourage such a person to enter into a relationship with a woman where is he faking that he loves her. Wouldn't it be wise for that person to stay single?
I'm happy to see you responding to this in a relatively more compassionate manner. I'm curious to know what type of "expert" the child could be referred to to overcome this problem? If you're referring to psychologists, social workers, psychotherapists, etc., they will not view homosexuality as a mental disorder. There is nowhere in the DSM-IV that classifies homosexuality as a disorder. So then what experts do we refer them to?
I don't completely agree that a homosexual resisting engaging in homosexual sex is the same thing as a married person who is tempted to commit adultry. A heterosexual person in a marriage who is tempted to cheat is still getting some sort of pleasure from his/her spouse, but just wants and desires more. If someone is homosexual and they are in a heterosexual relationship or marriage, they are not getting any of their desires met.
On the one hand, we accuse homosexuals of leading a disgusting lifestyle. But on the other hand, if the homosexual attempts to do the right thing by marrying someone of the opposite sex and creating children and a family, it will eventually lead that person eventually having to come to terms and be honest with himself and his partner and end up getting into a divorce. At that point, we'll accuse homosexuals of breaking up the family unit. So we end up accusing them on both ends. If they follow their desires, they're leading a disgusting and immoral lifestyle. If they deny their true feelings and try to do the right thing by engaging in a heterosexual relationship which ultimately fails, we accuse them of breaking up the family unit. So then what is the solution then? A "one-day-at-a-time" approach simply curtails the behavior. But it does not stop the heart from desiring what it desires.
If a man is attracted to men and he's actually disgusted by women and not attracted to women sexually at all, I don't think it would be a good idea to encourage such a person to enter into a relationship with a woman where is he faking that he loves her. Wouldn't it be wise for that person to stay single?
So your solution is that homosexuals should just stay single for the rest of their lives? I won't comment on how "wise" that would be. But it's definitely not realistic. What you're proposing is that all homosexuals remain celebate for their entire lives. That's never gonna happen. The only viable solution that I see is for us to ask ourselves how the behavior of what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom affect my quality of life?
Am I one of them?Would you like to be?
Am I one of them?Would you like to be?
Sure! Why not? I need to get a hard slap on my left butt cheek by your right hand ;D
I'm happy to see you responding to this in a relatively more compassionate manner. I'm curious to know what type of "expert" the child could be referred to to overcome this problem? If you're referring to psychologists, social workers, psychotherapists, etc., they will not view homosexuality as a mental disorder. There is nowhere in the DSM-IV that classifies homosexuality as a disorder. So then what experts do we refer them to?
I don't completely agree that a homosexual resisting engaging in homosexual sex is the same thing as a married person who is tempted to commit adultry. A heterosexual person in a marriage who is tempted to cheat is still getting some sort of pleasure from his/her spouse, but just wants and desires more. If someone is homosexual and they are in a heterosexual relationship or marriage, they are not getting any of their desires met.
On the one hand, we accuse homosexuals of leading a disgusting lifestyle. But on the other hand, if the homosexual attempts to do the right thing by marrying someone of the opposite sex and creating children and a family, it will eventually lead that person eventually having to come to terms and be honest with himself and his partner and end up getting into a divorce. At that point, we'll accuse homosexuals of breaking up the family unit. So we end up accusing them on both ends. If they follow their desires, they're leading a disgusting and immoral lifestyle. If they deny their true feelings and try to do the right thing by engaging in a heterosexual relationship which ultimately fails, we accuse them of breaking up the family unit. So then what is the solution then? A "one-day-at-a-time" approach simply curtails the behavior. But it does not stop the heart from desiring what it desires.
If a man is attracted to men and he's actually disgusted by women and not attracted to women sexually at all, I don't think it would be a good idea to encourage such a person to enter into a relationship with a woman where is he faking that he loves her. Wouldn't it be wise for that person to stay single?
So your solution is that homosexuals should just stay single for the rest of their lives? I won't comment on how "wise" that would be. But it's definitely not realistic. What you're proposing is that all homosexuals remain celebate for their entire lives. That's never gonna happen. The only viable solution that I see is for us to ask ourselves how the behavior of what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom affect my quality of life?
Am I one of them?Would you like to be?
Sure! Why not? I need to get a hard slap on my left butt cheek by your right hand ;D
Are you trying to act gay here?
Am I one of them?Would you like to be?
Sure! Why not? I need to get a hard slap on my left butt cheek by your right hand ;D
Are you trying to act gay here?
No, my point in the joke was that I'm sitting too far on the left and I have to be smacked back into shape by the right.
"You know there are men who never get married because they never find a wife or for other reasons, right? And are they celibate all their lives? Do they not struggle with urges as a single, sexually healthy, heterosexual man? They sure do. And I'm sure they don't succeed and pass every test."
Yes, and these single heterosexual men have sexual relations in their lives as well.
Do they not struggle with urges as a single, sexually healthy, heterosexual man? They sure do. And I'm sure they don't succeed and pass every test."
Now, I'm sure you would consider this to be a sin, but my question is do you consider heterosexual sex outside of a marriage to be just as egregious as homosexual sex?
If not, why so? Also, while we're on this topic, do you consider heterosexual oral and anal sex to be just as big of a sin as homosexual sex?
"But when the same-sex attracted man decides to live-in with his "partner" in a so-called "marriage" arrangement because he just can't live a life without unlimited sexual gratification at his every whim, he has basically given up the struggle and said that it doesn't matter what G-d says."
It sounds to me like you're promoting the false stereotype about gays in that their entire livelihoods revolve around sex.
Nothing could be further from the truth. They're human beings just like us
where sex only plays one part of their lives just like heterosexuals. Please forgive me if this is not what you said and if I misunderstood.
"They are prohibited from that behavior by G-d - It doesn't affect my quality of life but theirs!"
Fine. Then let G-d be the judge and not us.
"Why should the degree to which it affects my quality of life be relevant to this discussion."Logical fallacy - it is doing harm because encouraging a person to sin is a sin for us (and it harms the person being encouraged too).
Because if something doesn't affect us personally and isn't doing harm to anyone else,
then we should just live and let live and let G-d take care of the rest.
"In Judaism this behavior is a sin. Period. It seems that you're coming from a place where you don't care what Judaism says. So there is no way to have a commensurable conversation. However, the Jewish community functions with adherence to our peculiar Jewish religion."So what? Why can't certain conversations have conversation stoppers? Why is there no such thing as a red line in society?
This just proves the point of Sam Harris that G-d and religion are conversation stoppers. It doesn't matter what the rational merits and reasons of an argument or issue. If G-d says it, then there's no debate. It's the end of the conversation. Plain and simple.
Such absolutistic dogma to live by! I, for one, don't believe that things in life are that simple. But that's a whole other issue for another discussion.
Attitude Towards Sexuality
In Jewish law, sex is not considered inherently shameful, sinful, or obscene. Sex is not seen as a necessary evil for the sole purpose of procreation. Although sexual desire comes from the yetzer hara (the so-called "evil impulse"), it is no more evil than hunger or thirst, which also come from the yetzer hara. Like hunger, thirst, or other basic needs, sexual desire must be controlled, channeled, and satisfied in the proper time, place, and manner. But when sexual desire is satisfied between a husband and wife at the proper time and out of mutual love and desire, sexual relations are actually a mitzvah (a Biblical commandment, see Exodus 21,10 referring to "conjugal rights" and the commentary on it).
Sexual enjoyment (whether involving intercourse or mere hand holding) is permissible for Jews only within the context of marriage. For Torah, sex is not merely a way of experiencing physical pleasure. It is properly an act of immense significance, which requires commitment and responsibility. The requirement of marriage before sex ensures that sense of commitment and responsibility. The Torah forbids all sexual contact short of intercourse outside of the context of marriage, recognizing that such contact is likely lead to intercourse and is damaging in and of itself. Jews are rabbinically forbidden to even engage in sexual fantasy, let alone masturbation alone or mutual masturbation outside of marriage.
The primary purpose of sexual relations is to reinforce the loving marital bond between husband and wife. The first and foremost purpose of marriage is intimate long-term companionship (not just bearing children in a family context), and sexual relations play an important role in that. Procreation is also a reason for sex, but it is not the only reason; after a woman is no longer able to bear children, she is still expected to have an active sex life, just as during her child-bearing years (the idea that old folks should not or do not have sexual relations is an alien one in a Torah context). Sex between husband and wife is also recommended (and even required) at other times when conception is impossible, such as when the woman is pregnant or when the woman is using a permissible form of contraception. Kosher sexual relations are not necessarily limited to those that can lead to pregnancy, either: anal and oral relations are permitted, if enjoyable to both marital partners, though Jewish men have a separate commandment to reproduce, and should generally end up having normal vaginal intercourse.
In the Written Torah, one of the words used for sex between husband and wife comes from the root Yod-Dalet-Ayin, meaning to know, which vividly illustrates that proper Jewish sexuality involves both the heart and mind, not merely the body. (The English expression "sexual knowledge" seems to be derived from this Biblical idea, but generally has a negative connotation lacking in the Hebrew.)
Nevertheless, Torah does not ignore the physical component of sexuality. The need for physical compatibility between husband and wife is recognized in Jewish law. A Jewish couple must meet at least once before the marriage, and if either prospective spouse finds the other physically unattractive, they should not marry.
Sexual relations should only be experienced in a time of joy. Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil. A man may never force his wife to have sex. A couple may not have sexual relations while drunk or quarreling. Sex may never be used as a weapon against a spouse, either by depriving the spouse of sex or by compelling it. It is a serious offense to use sex (or lack thereof) to punish or manipulate a spouse.
Sex is the woman's right, not the man's. A man has a duty to give his wife sex regularly and to ensure that sex is pleasurable for her. He is also obligated to watch for signs that his wife wants sex, and to offer it to her without her asking for it. The woman's right to sexual intercourse is referred to as onah, and is one of a wife's three basic rights (the others are food and clothing), which a husband may not reduce. The Talmud specifies both the quantity and quality of sex that a man must give his wife. It specifies the frequency of sexual obligation based on the husband's occupation, although this obligation can be modified in the ketubah (marriage contract). A man may not take a vow to abstain from sex for an extended period of time, and may not take a journey for an extended period of time, because that would deprive his wife of sexual relations. In addition, a husband's consistent refusal to engage in sexual relations is grounds for compelling a man to divorce his wife, even if the couple has already fulfilled the halakhic obligation to procreate.
Although sex is the woman's right, she does not have absolute discretion to withhold it from her husband. A woman may not withhold sex from her husband as a form of punishment, and if she does, the husband may divorce her without paying the substantial divorce settlement provided for in the ketubah.
Although some sources take a more narrow view, the general view of halakhah is that any sexual conduct that does not regularly involve ejaculation outside the vagina is permissible. As one passage in the Talmud states, "a man may do whatever he pleases with his wife". In fact, there are passages in the Talmud that encourage foreplay to arouse the woman, and oral and anal sex are permitted (though not necessarily desirable), if they are not to the exclusion of vaginal sex.
Its a shame the boy killed himself. Children need to be taught there are many consequences from sin.
Excuse me, but you were the one who promoted that because you implied that I was an evil dictator for suggesting that homosexual men stay single. Can I ask you again to explain to me why that's a "wrong" suggestion?
Nothing could be further from the truth. They're human beings just like us
Oh, put a sock in it with this ridiculous propaganda, I know they are humans and never suggested otherwise, this leftist zombie rhetoric you employ is incredibly irritating.
where sex only plays one part of their lives just like heterosexuals. Please forgive me if this is not what you said and if I misunderstood.
Ok, you're forgiven because you did misunderstand.
"They are prohibited from that behavior by G-d - It doesn't affect my quality of life but theirs!"
Fine. Then let G-d be the judge and not us.
Indeed, but it is a sin for us to promote their behavior or tell them it is ok when it isn't! And THAT does affect us.
"Why should the degree to which it affects my quality of life be relevant to this discussion."
Because if something doesn't affect us personally and isn't doing harm to anyone else,
Logical fallacy - it is doing harm because encouraging a person to sin is a sin for us (and it harms the person being encouraged too).
then we should just live and let live and let G-d take care of the rest.
There's a logic to this which I agree with. Live and let live does not mean sanctioning unions of homosexual "partners" where the intention is to live together and have sex with one another in a loving relationship or putting female rabbis in kippas to sanction it. (And that's what marriage does entail!) It would mean staying the hell out of it.
"In Judaism this behavior is a sin. Period. It seems that you're coming from a place where you don't care what Judaism says. So there is no way to have a commensurable conversation. However, the Jewish community functions with adherence to our peculiar Jewish religion."
This just proves the point of Sam Harris that G-d and religion are conversation stoppers. It doesn't matter what the rational merits and reasons of an argument or issue. If G-d says it, then there's no debate. It's the end of the conversation. Plain and simple.
So what? Why can't certain conversations have conversation stoppers? Why is there no such thing as a red line in society?
Such absolutistic dogma to live by! I, for one, don't believe that things in life are that simple. But that's a whole other issue for another discussion.
Judaism is not an "absolutistic dogma" but an obvious issues like this where G-d quite plainly says certain things are forbidden, there really can't be an argument about it. It doesn't mean "things in life are that simple" (that's a quite general statement) and there can be many difficult and complicating circumstances surrounding that prohibition. But nonetheless the prohibition exists, difficult or complicated as circumstances might be and we have to bear that in mind despite whatever obstacles...
I don't think it's accurate to assert that obeying G-d is "believing that things in life are simple."
[/quote]QuoteNothing could be further from the truth. They're human beings just like usQuoteOh, put a sock in it with this ridiculous propaganda, I know they are humans and never suggested otherwise, this leftist zombie rhetoric you employ is incredibly irritating.
Propaganda? I was merely making a simple statement. No propaganda intended. I guess one person's simple comments in another person's propaganda and vice versa.
When did I ever say we should encourage their behavior? I never said that! The only thing I say is that we should just leave them the hell alone. That's not the same thing as encouraging their behavior.
The result of this kid's suicide was not the result of being encouraged or discouraged by others, it was the result of bullying, embarrassment, and harrassment. If he wasn't bullied this way, he wouldn't have done what he did. So I'm not saying the bullies should have encouraged him, they shoulda just left him the hell alone. If they just did that, this kid would still be alive today.
All I'm saying is that we oughta do the same. We shouldn't encourage them. We should just leave them alone.
To exclude religion from the question of morality is simplifying things in a detrimental way.
No, what I'm saying is that by boiling things down to whether something is right or wrong by stating that, "Well, it's wrong because G-d said so" is simplifying things.
I say this because I strongly believe that many things that we claim that G-d says is wrong was simply made up by humans and then they put these words into the mouth of G-d in order to try to control people's behavior.
I know that this might be a very blasphemous thing to state on this forum. But it's honestly what I believe.
And hey, I haven't been banned yet for expressing these beliefs.I don't think you're going to be. Is there a reason you should?
But I won't be surprised in the least if I ever am.Really? Why?
QuoteNothing could be further from the truth. They're human beings just like usQuoteOh, put a sock in it with this ridiculous propaganda, I know they are humans and never suggested otherwise, this leftist zombie rhetoric you employ is incredibly irritating.
Propaganda? I was merely making a simple statement. No propaganda intended. I guess one person's simple comments in another person's propaganda and vice versa.
When did I ever say we should encourage their behavior? I never said that! The only thing I say is that we should just leave them the hell alone. That's not the same thing as encouraging their behavior.
The result of this kid's suicide was not the result of being encouraged or discouraged by others, it was the result of bullying, embarrassment, and harrassment. If he wasn't bullied this way, he wouldn't have done what he did. So I'm not saying the bullies should have encouraged him, they shoulda just left him the hell alone. If they just did that, this kid would still be alive today.
All I'm saying is that we oughta do the same. We shouldn't encourage them. We should just leave them alone.
Funny how you shift the conversation to argue against straw-men. Wasn't this about gay marriage? When did this discussion between me and you get shifted to the poor guy who was bullied?
Let's get something straight. I never said this kid should have gotten bullied. If you think so, you need to read the comment thread again and pay close attention to my comments. Don't just ascribe other people's comments to me and then argue with me.
I never challenged the fact that the bullies should have left him alone! In fact, I implied that it might have helped if he fought back against them or if parents got involved. Really, enough of this rhetoric.
To exclude religion from the question of morality is simplifying things in a detrimental way.
No, what I'm saying is that by boiling things down to whether something is right or wrong by stating that, "Well, it's wrong because G-d said so" is simplifying things.QuoteI say this because I strongly believe that many things that we claim that G-d says is wrong was simply made up by humans and then they put these words into the mouth of G-d in order to try to control people's behavior.
Then, that's not "simplifying things" to claim G-d calls something wrong, it's actually a fraudulent lie according to this belief. Of course, I think your belief is wrong and have no reason to think it's right.QuoteI know that this might be a very blasphemous thing to state on this forum. But it's honestly what I believe.
I gathered that you believe that, and that was why early in the discussion I had said "In Judaism this behavior is a sin. Period. It seems that you're coming from a place where you don't care what Judaism says. So there is no way to have a commensurable conversation. However, the Jewish community functions with adherence to our peculiar Jewish religion."
At the time, I had thought we were discussing gay "marriage."
In any case, there is actually something I'd like to ask based on your above belief which can actually result in a commensurable conversation about a different subject. Namely, do you think that the author (or whoever you think wrote it) of the Torah was intelligent?QuoteAnd hey, I haven't been banned yet for expressing these beliefs.I don't think you're going to be. Is there a reason you should?QuoteBut I won't be surprised in the least if I ever am.Really? Why?
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
Chapter 5 Mishnah 13
13. There are four types among men:
He who says, "What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours"--this is the common type, though some say that this is the type of Sodom.
He who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is mine"--he is an ignorant man.
He who says, "What is mine is yours and what is yours is thine own"--he is a saintly man.
And he who says, "What is yours is mine, and what is mine is mine"--he is a wicked man.
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html#chap3
Chapter 4 Mishnah 1
1. Ben Zoma said: Who is wise? He who learns from all men, as it is written (Psalm 119:99) "I have gained understanding from all my teachers."
Who is mighty? He who subdues his passions, as it is written (Proverbs 16:32) "One who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, and one whose temper is controlled than one who captures a city."
Who is rich? He who rejoices in his portion, as it is written (Psalm 128:2) "You shall eat the fruit of the labor of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall go well with you." "You shall be" refers to this world; and "it shall be well with you" refers to the world to come.
Who is honored? He that honors his fellow men as it is written (I Samuel 2:30) "For those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be treated with contempt."
Well, you might like to call me a sodomite. I like to consider myself a humanist :)
I'm thinking of bearing my soul and confessing everything in another post. But being that it's close to shabbos, I'll save that for another time. I've gotta get ready to attend the Shabbat Unplugged services at Shaaray Tefilah in the city where a full band will be playing along with the service. Ooh, yes, I know, how blasphemous! But I find them the most awesome services in the world and that's what provides meaning and spirituality to me :)
Good shabbos everyone!
Well, you might like to call me a sodomite. I like to consider myself a humanist :)
I'm thinking of bearing my soul and confessing everything in another post. But being that it's close to shabbos, I'll save that for another time. I've gotta get ready to attend the Shabbat Unplugged services at Shaaray Tefilah in the city where a full band will be playing along with the service. Ooh, yes, I know, how blasphemous! But I find them the most awesome services in the world and that's what provides meaning and spirituality to me :)
Good shabbos everyone!
Why do you call this Shabbos? Don't you know what Shabbos means?
Sounds like a Friday night concert... Probably with mixed seating, and of course non-kosher food, and using electricity...
So basically why would you call it Shabbos? You must either not know that it is forbidden to do all those things or you do know yet you do it anyway. So your Jewishness is not important to you, because you violate and yet feel it is ok to violate the very Torah you hold up as holy... Im sorry, I feel very sorry for you.. What is sad is that you only will do those things which make sense to you, because of selfish reasons, not because it is what Hashem wants from us, to be servants of Hashem, to be a Holy nation... Not just because a mitzvah makes sense to you.... Yes, indeed you exhibit sodomite tendencies..
Well, you might like to call me a sodomite. I like to consider myself a humanist :)
I'm thinking of bearing my soul and confessing everything in another post. But being that it's close to shabbos, I'll save that for another time. I've gotta get ready to attend the Shabbat Unplugged services at Shaaray Tefilah in the city where a full band will be playing along with the service. Ooh, yes, I know, how blasphemous! But I find them the most awesome services in the world and that's what provides meaning and spirituality to me :)
Good shabbos everyone!
Why do you call this Shabbos? Don't you know what Shabbos means?
Sounds like a Friday night concert... Probably with mixed seating, and of course non-kosher food, and using electricity...
So basically why would you call it Shabbos? You must either not know that it is forbidden to do all those things or you do know yet you do it anyway. So your Jewishness is not important to you, because you violate and yet feel it is ok to violate the very Torah you hold up as holy... Im sorry, I feel very sorry for you.. What is sad is that you only will do those things which make sense to you, because of selfish reasons, not because it is what Hashem wants from us, to be servants of Hashem, to be a Holy nation... Not just because a mitzvah makes sense to you.... Yes, indeed you exhibit sodomite tendencies..
Your definition of Shabbos and Judaism and Jewishness is very different from mine and many other Jews for that matter. I've got news for you. The orthodox do not have a monopoly on Judaism, and Torah Judaism is not the only valid form of Judaism. If you want to see things that way, that's fine. But I don't need to abide by what you think is right or what you say G-d says is right. It doesn't make me any less of a Jew. You might call it sodomite tendencies. I call it being enlightened and humanistic. I suppose it's the same difference for all intents and purposes.
Its a shame the boy killed himself. Children need to be taught there are many consequences from sin.
What is the sin here? The homosexuality or the bullying that led to his suicide?
To exclude religion from the question of morality is simplifying things in a detrimental way.
No, what I'm saying is that by boiling things down to whether something is right or wrong by stating that, "Well, it's wrong because G-d said so" is simplifying things.QuoteI say this because I strongly believe that many things that we claim that G-d says is wrong was simply made up by humans and then they put these words into the mouth of G-d in order to try to control people's behavior.
Then, that's not "simplifying things" to claim G-d calls something wrong, it's actually a fraudulent lie according to this belief. Of course, I think your belief is wrong and have no reason to think it's right.QuoteI know that this might be a very blasphemous thing to state on this forum. But it's honestly what I believe.
I gathered that you believe that, and that was why early in the discussion I had said "In Judaism this behavior is a sin. Period. It seems that you're coming from a place where you don't care what Judaism says. So there is no way to have a commensurable conversation. However, the Jewish community functions with adherence to our peculiar Jewish religion."
At the time, I had thought we were discussing gay "marriage."
In any case, there is actually something I'd like to ask based on your above belief which can actually result in a commensurable conversation about a different subject. Namely, do you think that the author (or whoever you think wrote it) of the Torah was intelligent?QuoteAnd hey, I haven't been banned yet for expressing these beliefs.I don't think you're going to be. Is there a reason you should?QuoteBut I won't be surprised in the least if I ever am.Really? Why?
I dunno. Perhaps you're right. I just sometimes think that if I were to reveal the entire truth about who I am, what I believe, and how I behave, that I would not be tolerated on this forum. But that hasn't happened yet. I wonder if I should completely reveal everything about myself and see what happens. What I can basically say here is that I love Israel and am currently against the peace process. That's one thing that we can all be in agreement about. But aside from this, I'm on the opposite end of many other issues.
Torah Judaism is not the only valid form of Judaism.
No need to reply to this, Daniel, but it sounds like you might be a homosexual or know someone close to you who is one. If this is true, we are not here to force you to do anything. You have free will. However, if you are doing it, we recommend that you don't and that it is inappropriate. And if there is anything else we can do to help we will try and help.
And if I am way off, I apologize sincerely...
Most of us are aware that you are a liberal and that mistakingly voted for Obama.To exclude religion from the question of morality is simplifying things in a detrimental way.
No, what I'm saying is that by boiling things down to whether something is right or wrong by stating that, "Well, it's wrong because G-d said so" is simplifying things.QuoteI say this because I strongly believe that many things that we claim that G-d says is wrong was simply made up by humans and then they put these words into the mouth of G-d in order to try to control people's behavior.
Then, that's not "simplifying things" to claim G-d calls something wrong, it's actually a fraudulent lie according to this belief. Of course, I think your belief is wrong and have no reason to think it's right.QuoteI know that this might be a very blasphemous thing to state on this forum. But it's honestly what I believe.
I gathered that you believe that, and that was why early in the discussion I had said "In Judaism this behavior is a sin. Period. It seems that you're coming from a place where you don't care what Judaism says. So there is no way to have a commensurable conversation. However, the Jewish community functions with adherence to our peculiar Jewish religion."
At the time, I had thought we were discussing gay "marriage."
In any case, there is actually something I'd like to ask based on your above belief which can actually result in a commensurable conversation about a different subject. Namely, do you think that the author (or whoever you think wrote it) of the Torah was intelligent?QuoteAnd hey, I haven't been banned yet for expressing these beliefs.I don't think you're going to be. Is there a reason you should?QuoteBut I won't be surprised in the least if I ever am.Really? Why?
I dunno. Perhaps you're right. I just sometimes think that if I were to reveal the entire truth about who I am, what I believe, and how I behave, that I would not be tolerated on this forum. But that hasn't happened yet. I wonder if I should completely reveal everything about myself and see what happens. What I can basically say here is that I love Israel and am currently against the peace process. That's one thing that we can all be in agreement about. But aside from this, I'm on the opposite end of many other issues.
If anything, it is those of you who make anti-gay remarks that suggest that it is you posters who might be gay since homophobia and gay bashing is often the result of insecurity of one's own sexuality.
I would engage in them and wouldn't give a damn about what any of you have to say about it.
I find your remarks to be extremely chutzpadik with you assuming I'm gay as well as saying I "mistakenly" voted for Obama. That's your opinion.
Don't get facts and opinions confused because THAT is a mistake. I'm not offended by you suspecting that I'm gay, but I'm offending because of the reason you think I'm gay. Trust me, anyone like me who has no problem with gays and abhors homophobia is secure in their sexuality.Anecdotal and baseless assertion.
It is only those who hate gays that are the ones that are probably gay themselves.Again anecdotal and I await evidence for this type of claim if you have any for it.
I think that deep down inside, many of you know that you are largely responsible for Tyler Clementi's death
and are responsible for the increasing amount of anti-gay violence that is taking place today. While none of you may be engaging first hand in any type of anti-gay violence, it is your expression that gives cover to the people that actually commit these violent acts. The same way that liberal religious moderates give cover to relgious extremists, it is people like you that give cover to those that physically attack gays.
It reminded me that Judaism is not this intolerant Nazi-like creed that so many of you make Judaism appear.
He stated that it really might not be possible to respond to the orthodox since the orthodox believe that the torah is the direct word from G-d and how they don't view the torah as written by our ancestors who meant well when they wrote the bible, but that noteverything was perfect.
There was one poster on here that was asking me why I hold onto my Judaism as though I am not truly being Jewish unless I espouse the same opinions and values as those posters on here.
I think that deep down inside, many of you know that you are largely responsible for Tyler Clementi's death
Wtf?
Oh yeah, this isn't rhetoric...Quoteand are responsible for the increasing amount of anti-gay violence that is taking place today. While none of you may be engaging first hand in any type of anti-gay violence, it is your expression that gives cover to the people that actually commit these violent acts. The same way that liberal religious moderates give cover to relgious extremists, it is people like you that give cover to those that physically attack gays.
This is bumbling insanity!QuoteIt reminded me that Judaism is not this intolerant Nazi-like creed that so many of you make Judaism appear.
I always find this tactic very cowardly whenever I see it on the forum. Some people insist on throwing out generalizations against "the forum" or "some of you" or "many of you" instead of actually challenging people by quoting their own statements and showing how you disagree or actually challenging individual people to real debate. What you are doing is extremely cowardly. You are painting a broad brush stroke here, and it's dishonest. This allows you to accuse without actually showing what it's based on. Why don't you call out specific people if you think they make Judaism look "nazi-like" and explain in what way they do, instead of launching this disgusting (unjustified) invective against people here. Your reform priest with his guitar taught you should call religious Jews nazis because they disagree with your views? Did he say you should accuse people of crimes they didn't commit and have nothing to do with and blame them as scapegoats for society's problems? What a tolerant shmuck such a person must be...
Also, I don't mean to paint everyone with a broad brushstroke as I am sure there are quite a number of lurkers on here who agree with me and think how I think and believe what I believe, at least I hope so. I would like to think that there are others like me on this forum, that although they don't post these views, that they have these views. If our enemies monitor us, then it's not that much of a leap of faith to believe that there are others like me on here. Then again, I'm sure "some" (NOT all) of you would believe that a pathetic bleeding-heart liberal like me and our enemies are one in the same.
Also, I don't mean to paint everyone with a broad brushstroke as I am sure there are quite a number of lurkers on here who agree with me and think how I think and believe what I believe, at least I hope so.
I would like to think that there are others like me on this forum, that although they don't post these views, that they have these views. If our enemies monitor us, then it's not that much of a leap of faith to believe that there are others like me on here. Then again, I'm sure "some" (NOT all) of you would believe that a pathetic bleeding-heart liberal like me and our enemies are one in the same.
I think that deep down inside, many of you know that you are largely responsible for Tyler Clementi's death
Wtf?
Oh yeah, this isn't rhetoric...Quoteand are responsible for the increasing amount of anti-gay violence that is taking place today. While none of you may be engaging first hand in any type of anti-gay violence, it is your expression that gives cover to the people that actually commit these violent acts. The same way that liberal religious moderates give cover to relgious extremists, it is people like you that give cover to those that physically attack gays.
This is bumbling insanity!QuoteIt reminded me that Judaism is not this intolerant Nazi-like creed that so many of you make Judaism appear.
I always find this tactic very cowardly whenever I see it on the forum. Some people insist on throwing out generalizations against "the forum" or "some of you" or "many of you" instead of actually challenging people by quoting their own statements and showing how you disagree or actually challenging individual people to real debate. What you are doing is extremely cowardly. You are painting a broad brush stroke here, and it's dishonest. This allows you to accuse without actually showing what it's based on. Why don't you call out specific people if you think they make Judaism look "nazi-like" and explain in what way they do, instead of launching this disgusting (unjustified) invective against people here. Your reform priest with his guitar taught you should call religious Jews nazis because they disagree with your views? Did he say you should accuse people of crimes they didn't commit and have nothing to do with and blame them as scapegoats for society's problems? What a tolerant shmuck such a person must be...
Actually, he never did any such thing. That was all me. I guess if anything, I picked up that behavior by being on this forum for as long as I have. So just blame me. I'm solely accountable for this.
The voice of logic and reason is not being so rational right now.
It's okay, Dr. Dan, I will respond. I already stated that I am straight ally. I don't know what gives you the idea that anything I say suggests that I might be a homosexual. If anything, it is those of you who make anti-gay remarks that suggest that it is you posters who might be gay since homophobia and gay bashing is often the result of insecurity of one's own sexuality. So don't worry, I won't engage in any homosexual behavior, but not because you or anyone else on here says that it's inappropriate. It's simply because I am straight and don't have homosexual desires. I am straight not by my own choice. I am straight not because that's how my parents raised me. I am straight because that's how nature made me! If I did have homosexual desires, believe me, I would engage in them and wouldn't give a damn about what any of you have to say about it.
I do happen to know gay people who are close to me and know what great and gentle people they are and know the extreme hardships that they need to go through in life as a result of how society condemns them for making this "choice" as if it would be a choice to be mocked, bullied, and condemned! I also have a former friend who was the biggest hateful homophobe I have ever met in my entire life. I saw what kind of a vicious hateful moron he became, not just as a result of being a homophobe, but just was a really mean spirited vicious person and his homophobia was just one manifestation of his personality. When I first met him, he was one of the most gentle and friendly person I ever met. It was only as he went through the baal t'shuvah process that he really changed and became the biggest racist, bigot, homophobe, and just the most mean spirited jerk I have ever confronted in my entire life. It's just so unfortunate that I see many of the same expressions coming from many of the posters on here.
I can say the same to you that you might be gay or know someone gay who is close to you. If either is the case, I urge you not to beat up on your gay friend since THAT would not be appropriate.
I find your remarks to be extremely chutzpadik with you assuming I'm gay as well as saying I "mistakenly" voted for Obama. That's your opinion. Don't get facts and opinions confused because THAT is a mistake. I'm not offended by you suspecting that I'm gay, but I'm offending because of the reason you think I'm gay. Trust me, anyone like me who has no problem with gays and abhors homophobia is secure in their sexuality. It is only those who hate gays that are the ones that are probably gay themselves.
You present yourself as being supportive. But in reality, it's a bit condescending, and I do expect better from you, Dr. Dan.No need to reply to this, Daniel, but it sounds like you might be a homosexual or know someone close to you who is one. If this is true, we are not here to force you to do anything. You have free will. However, if you are doing it, we recommend that you don't and that it is inappropriate. And if there is anything else we can do to help we will try and help.
And if I am way off, I apologize sincerely...
Most of us are aware that you are a liberal and that mistakingly voted for Obama.To exclude religion from the question of morality is simplifying things in a detrimental way.
No, what I'm saying is that by boiling things down to whether something is right or wrong by stating that, "Well, it's wrong because G-d said so" is simplifying things.QuoteI say this because I strongly believe that many things that we claim that G-d says is wrong was simply made up by humans and then they put these words into the mouth of G-d in order to try to control people's behavior.
Then, that's not "simplifying things" to claim G-d calls something wrong, it's actually a fraudulent lie according to this belief. Of course, I think your belief is wrong and have no reason to think it's right.QuoteI know that this might be a very blasphemous thing to state on this forum. But it's honestly what I believe.
I gathered that you believe that, and that was why early in the discussion I had said "In Judaism this behavior is a sin. Period. It seems that you're coming from a place where you don't care what Judaism says. So there is no way to have a commensurable conversation. However, the Jewish community functions with adherence to our peculiar Jewish religion."
At the time, I had thought we were discussing gay "marriage."
In any case, there is actually something I'd like to ask based on your above belief which can actually result in a commensurable conversation about a different subject. Namely, do you think that the author (or whoever you think wrote it) of the Torah was intelligent?QuoteAnd hey, I haven't been banned yet for expressing these beliefs.I don't think you're going to be. Is there a reason you should?QuoteBut I won't be surprised in the least if I ever am.Really? Why?
I dunno. Perhaps you're right. I just sometimes think that if I were to reveal the entire truth about who I am, what I believe, and how I behave, that I would not be tolerated on this forum. But that hasn't happened yet. I wonder if I should completely reveal everything about myself and see what happens. What I can basically say here is that I love Israel and am currently against the peace process. That's one thing that we can all be in agreement about. But aside from this, I'm on the opposite end of many other issues.
A self-hating, hypocrite Galut Jew who voted for the Black Hitler calls us Nazis.Careful now Ron... All the so called "hypocrite Galut Jews" may get a wild hair and decide to make aliyah then what would you have. :::D
And someone started with the name calling at Daniel first. Calling him a sodomite was only meant to antagonize him. It wasn't said to put forth a greater understanding of the subject.
And someone started with the name calling at Daniel first. Calling him a sodomite was only meant to antagonize him. It wasn't said to put forth a greater understanding of the subject.
And someone started with the name calling at Daniel first. Calling him a sodomite was only meant to antagonize him. It wasn't said to put forth a greater understanding of the subject.
they are being ganged up on,
mmm no. Never posted a comment here like that at all Ron. Keep spinning your wheels, nazi boy. I wonder if the made up word, 'judeofascist' would have your picture next to it. Truly, I have never met such a horrible person who also happens to claim to be Jewish. Really, just when I think you can't be more rotten, mean-spirited, wicked and evil, you seem to somehow prove me wrong. Baruch Hashem, keep showing your true colors!
Daniel. You have a sick liberal brain with a little mind. You defend self hating Jews you defend evil behavior. You called us nazis and jtf a Nazi movement and orthodox Jews nazis. You obviously have a mental disease. I actual thought you were a decent person. I wonder if there is any hope for you.
All I ever said is that all people have free will to choose right from wrong and it was never in my hands to force people to behave a certain way. However it is my right to rebuke woolen who do evil things like you have been doing and the terrible thing you wrote to me publicly. I can't believe you pit words in my mouth in Kwrbt's mouth and muman's mouth. Shame on you for calling is nazis and Nazi like. Shame on you for calling Judaism a Nazi religion.
Yes, Ron. You the brilliant Israeli macher has figured it all out. Daniel and I are gay lovers in a parallel universe ruled by Allah! Yes, you finally discovered us.
Now, after you take your thorazine, and stop focusing on the size of men's penises, perhaps you'll be let out of the Shabak headquarters. And it's interesting that I should be able to "trust" you re: different penis sizes, I have no idea this was also one of your many fortes.
Ron, everything out of your mouth is fascist. Violence, banning, temper tantrums... a true sociopath following in the tradition of his brown shirt mentors
There are some ladies here for which you show no respect.
Serb,
Ron is a fascist that has been allowed to wreak havoc on this forum. He's pretty much said 'F u' to every member of the forum with whom he disagrees. He had no concept of respect. Ron the Fascist doesn't know or want to know that concept. He is the only person on this forum who is allowed to speak this way to others. Many of us have thought he should have been kicked off this forum long ago. Imagine letting a teenage sociopath dictate the climate of a forum.
Yes that too, Hitler also said that the Jews destroy Germany and that they're hiding their real identity.
Yes that too, Hitler also said that the Jews destroy Germany and that they're hiding their real identity.
Nice try idiot, you are the hitler here, the rest of us are the Jews