JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: IsraeliGovtAreKapos on December 07, 2010, 11:13:26 AM
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The Israeli High Court ruled that the inhumane torture of Jewish political prisoner Yigal Amir (15 years of complete solitary confinement!) must go on - while the smashers of Jewish children's heads such as Hezbollah mass murderer Samir Kuntar are freed from prison, joyously fat and with academic degrees
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141028
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The Israeli High Court ruled that the inhumane torture of Jewish political prisoner Yigal Amir (15 years of complete solitary confinement!) must go on - while the smashers of Jewish children's heads such as Hezbollah murderer Samir Kuntar are freed from prison, fat and with academic degrees
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141028
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
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Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
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Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
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Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
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I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
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I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
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Here, i'll put it to you this way. If i were a witness to Yigal Amir's crime and I had to go the stand to be a witness, I would say I knew nothing and didn't see anything.
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The crime Yigal Amir did was murder somebody who happened to be the head of state. His life was not in danger. He broke the law. He had to do jail time. That's not condemning him. I'm stating a fact. His jail time should be complete and he should be let free.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
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Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
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Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
I don't...but now that you bring it up..if the Torah law says to wipe out the memory of Amalek, why aren't you going out murdering Amalekites left and right. Torah law says you should...
But you know that if you get caught, you'll go to jail for the rest of your life and what good will that do for you or for this movement.
Yigal Amir did a good thing.. He sacrificed his life for the Jewish people. Chaim had done a good thing and sacrificed many years of his life for the Jewish people. Unfortunately both got caught breaking the law they had to jail time according to the laws of the countries where they were caught. Thank Gd Chaim is free. His punishment was worse than what he deserved, but thank Gd he is alive and well and stronger than ever. And Yigal Amir was caught murdering a head of state..and an evil one. He broke a law in Israel. He got caught was thrown in jail. He should be free now. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. Yes, he was entrapt, but he still saw blanks and exchanged them with actual bullets and he killed someone..He broke the law and got caught and was thrown in jail. Now he should be free.
How many times do I need to say this to convince you that I'm not an Erev Rav to you. I know what you are trying to get at, but I'm not stupid. If only I could speak Hebrew..Maybe I have my wife translate better.
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And I will add that if I had to be a witness against another righteous Jew for a crime they did, I would never turn him/her in. That would have included Yigal Amir even if cameras caught me as a witness and I had to go to jail for it.
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The crime Yigal Amir did was murder somebody who happened to be the head of state. His life was not in danger. He broke the law. He had to do jail time. That's not condemning him. I'm stating a fact. His jail time should be complete and he should be let free.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
Yitzchak Rabin was endangering the lives of millions of Jews - he was about to give in Judea and Samaria, including Jerusalem and the Golan Heights (according to Martin Indyk) to Arab mass-murdering terrorists he was funding, training and arming. Even Bill Clinton admitted last month that had Rabin lived, in 3 years the entire Yosh (Judea and Samaria) region including Jerusalem would have been given in to the Arab terrorists and would have become a base for the genocidal, Nazi, fanatical Jew murderers of Arafat. Had this happened, Israel would have been wiped off the face of the earth and the Jews would have faced a second Holocaust, this time on their own land.
What you're saying is that the prime minister/head of state is far more important than Jewish lives. Hitler was also the head of state of Nazi Germany. Who cares if he was a prime minister or a foreign worker? He was endangering the existence of the Jewish people. The Jewish people had not only the right, but the obligation, to defend themeselves against a brutal, treacherous dictator who sold their lives and exposed them to a threat of a second Holocaust on their own homeland.
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@Dr. Dan:
If the state decides that Dr. Dan must not live, would you follow the law and kill yourself? Blind submission to the state is not a possitive attritube, unless you're German, which you aren't.
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He killed a head of state. That is against the law in Israel. He got caught was thrown in jail. And no, he did not deserve to be tortured.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
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So by that logic, why don't you assassinate Netanyoyo? He is also endangering the lives of all of Israel by not attacking Iran. Of course I don't mean that..nobody here should do such a thing...
The crime Yigal Amir did was murder somebody who happened to be the head of state. His life was not in danger. He broke the law. He had to do jail time. That's not condemning him. I'm stating a fact. His jail time should be complete and he should be let free.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
Yitzchak Rabin was endangering the lives of millions of Jews - he was about to give in Judea and Samaria, including Jerusalem and the Golan Heights (according to Martin Indyk) to Arab mass-murdering terrorists he was funding, training and arming. Even Bill Clinton admitted last month that had Rabin lived, in 3 years the entire Yosh (Judea and Samaria) region including Jerusalem would have been given in to the Arab terrorists and would have become a base for the genocidal, Nazi, fanatical Jew murderers of Arafat. Had this happened, Israel would have been wiped off the face of the earth and the Jews would have faced a second Holocaust, this time on their own land.
What you're saying is that the prime minister/head of state is far more important than Jewish lives. Hitler was also the head of state of Nazi Germany. Who cares if he was a prime minister or a foreign worker? He was endangering the existence of the Jewish people. The Jewish people had not only the right, but the obligation, to defend themeselves against a brutal, treacherous dictator who sold their lives and exposed them to a threat of a second Holocaust on their own homeland.
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He killed a head of state. That is against the law in Israel. He got caught was thrown in jail. And no, he did not deserve to be tortured.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
Putting the State above Jewish lives is Fascism. Who cares if the enemy of the Jewish people is a head of state or a birthday party clown?
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@Dr. Dan:
If the state decides that Dr. Dan must not live, would you follow the law and kill yourself? Blind submission to the state is not a possitive attritube, unless you're German, which you aren't.
umm, what does that have to do with anything?
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So by that logic, why don't you assassinate Netanyoyo? He is also endangering the lives of all of Israel by not attacking Iran. Of course I don't mean that..nobody here should do such a thing...
By that logic - Netanyahu is even worse. We don't encourage Jews to break the law - but we never put it above Jewish lives and Torah, as we don't believe in "State religion". In the past it was called Fascism.
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He killed a head of state. That is against the law in Israel. He got caught was thrown in jail. And no, he did not deserve to be tortured.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
Putting the State above Jewish lives is Fascism. Who cares if the enemy of the Jewish people is a head of state or a birthday party clown?
So you are suggesting that every Jew in Israel who feels like it to hurt or kill erev rav Jews randomly? I wish it was that simple...IT's not very practical. I would rather people follow the law and elect those bastards out of office and then make laws to jail them.
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@Dr. Dan:
If the state decides that Dr. Dan must not live, would you follow the law and kill yourself? Blind submission to the state is not a possitive attritube, unless you're German, which you aren't.
umm, what does that have to do with anything?
Because according to your logic, if the State law ruled that you must be dead, and you would violate it, you should be thrown to prison for it.
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So by that logic, why don't you assassinate Netanyoyo? He is also endangering the lives of all of Israel by not attacking Iran. Of course I don't mean that..nobody here should do such a thing...
By that logic - Netanyahu is even worse. We don't encourage Jews to break the law - but we never put it above Jewish lives and Torah, as we don't believe in "State religion". In the past it was called Fascism.
And if a Jew breaks state law and gets caught he shouldn't be jailed? Even if breaking that law makes you happy?
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He killed a head of state. That is against the law in Israel. He got caught was thrown in jail. And no, he did not deserve to be tortured.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
Putting the State above Jewish lives is Fascism. Who cares if the enemy of the Jewish people is a head of state or a birthday party clown?
So you are suggesting that every Jew in Israel who feels like it to hurt or kill erev rav Jews randomly? I wish it was that simple...IT's not very practical. I would rather people follow the law and elect those bastards out of office and then make laws to jail them.
I'm simply asking you one question: do you think the Jewish people had the right to defend themeselves from a treacherous, bloody tyrant?
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@Dr. Dan:
If the state decides that Dr. Dan must not live, would you follow the law and kill yourself? Blind submission to the state is not a possitive attritube, unless you're German, which you aren't.
umm, what does that have to do with anything?
Because according to your logic, if the State law ruled that you must be dead, and you would violate it, you should be thrown to prison for it.
but no such law exists so it's a moot point..It has nothing to do with this.
Now let's talk about Hanukah and the Greeks. If a law was passed that I wasn't allowed to study Torah or else it meant death, I would study Torah law and risk my life.
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So by that logic, why don't you assassinate Netanyoyo? He is also endangering the lives of all of Israel by not attacking Iran. Of course I don't mean that..nobody here should do such a thing...
By that logic - Netanyahu is even worse. We don't encourage Jews to break the law - but we never put it above Jewish lives and Torah, as we don't believe in "State religion". In the past it was called Fascism.
And if a Jew breaks state law and gets caught he shouldn't be jailed? Even if breaking that law makes you happy?
If the State ruled that you must be dead, would you obey it?
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but no such law exists so it's a moot point..It has nothing to do with this.
It's not a moot point because Alex is showing you the absurdity of your argument which puts the State law above Jewish lives. Alex's example is merely showing you that by your logic, State law is above your life as well.
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The Israeli High Court ruled that the inhumane torture of Jewish political prisoner Yigal Amir (15 years of complete solitary confinement!) must go on - while the smashers of Jewish children's heads such as Hezbollah mass murderer Samir Kuntar are freed from prison, joyously fat and with academic degrees
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141028
Yes it's obscene and it reveals how sick Israeli authorities are.
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Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Interesting point. I agree.
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Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
It's more complicated than that. The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so. Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too. But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.
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Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
It's more complicated than that. The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so. Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too. But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.
But there is a difference between realizing the practical Bolshevik punishment Jewish heroes of our time must face (and G-d will punish the Erev Rav for it) when fighting for the Jewish people, and agreeing with it. According to Dr. Dan, Chaim and Jonathan Pollard also should have been imprisoned for their heroic struggles for the Jewish people just bbecause they were violating the law.
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Yes. By creating a law abiding movement. Luckily yigal killed that tyrant. We should celebrate every year.
He killed a head of state. That is against the law in Israel. He got caught was thrown in jail. And no, he did not deserve to be tortured.
I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense. Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?
Putting the State above Jewish lives is Fascism. Who cares if the enemy of the Jewish people is a head of state or a birthday party clown?
So you are suggesting that every Jew in Israel who feels like it to hurt or kill erev rav Jews randomly? I wish it was that simple...IT's not very practical. I would rather people follow the law and elect those bastards out of office and then make laws to jail them.
I'm simply asking you one question: do you think the Jewish people had the right to defend themeselves from a treacherous, bloody tyrant?
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Dr Dan,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean : when you say Yigal Amir committed a crime and had to be jailed, are you just stating a fact (he broke Israeli law, he has to serve a sentence) or are you also morally judging him (he killed the Israeli head of state, that's wrong, he deserves punishment) ?
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but no such law exists so it's a moot point..It has nothing to do with this.
It's not a moot point because Alex is showing you the absurdity of your argument which puts the State law above Jewish lives. Alex's example is merely showing you that by your logic, State law is above your life as well.
But state law is not above my life.
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Thank you Kwrbt
Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
It's more complicated than that. The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so. Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too. But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.
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Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
It's more complicated than that. The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so. Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too. But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.
But there is a difference between realizing the practical Bolshevik punishment Jewish heroes of our time must face (and G-d will punish the Erev Rav for it), and agreeing with it.
It's an interesting question. It seems to me he is justified by the halacha, so yes I do not agree with them punishing him.
They certainly don't see it that way. But if you argue to them within their framework (not with ours since they do not accept it or give it attention), then you certainly can draw up a rational case for why he should be let out now and given leniency after all this time, if not sooner.
It may be that some people conflate the two points of view. I do agree that we need to keep a clear perspective on what the law should be despite what it currently is.
On the other hand, in the practical realm, arguing for his release to a public that accepts the bolshevik framework and not ours, and to a regime that of course does not accept ours, may require that we utilize their legal premises in order to deconstruct their own persecution of this hero which they do in the name of their "law."
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Dr Dan,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean : when you say Yigal Amir committed a crime and had to be jailed, are you just stating a fact (he broke Israeli law, he has to serve a sentence) or are you also morally judging him (he killed the Israeli head of state, that's wrong, he deserves punishment) ?
Not morally judging amir chaim or any Jewish hero. They all have done the ultimate sacrifices.
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Yes. By creating a law abiding movement. Luckily yigal killed that tyrant. We should celebrate every year.
The assasination took place after all Democratic options to prevent the arming of weapons to terrorists were taken and drained, including mass, peaceful demonstrations that were oppressed by violent, sadistic horsemen. None of these peaceful actions achieved anything besides broken heads of naive people like you. Israel is not a Democratic State for ideological rivals of the regime to take power or have influence.
But even according to Martin Indyk and Bill Clinton, the assasination prevented the total extermination of the Jewish people by Arab genocidal murderers whom Rabin was arming and funding. Had the Jewish people protested Rabin's war against the Jewish people legally as you suggest, none of the Israeli posters on this forum were alive to post here.
Yigal Amir risked his life and saved the live of millions of Jews, and instead of honoring him and thanking him for his brave devotion and love of Jews, you justify his oppression by the evil Bolshevik establishment. Just sick beyond words.
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Morally, I think it's clear - he should not be in jail. He was the lone wolf who tried to stem the tide of the massive tsunami.
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The assasination took place after all Democratic options to prevent the arming of weapons to terrorists were taken and drained, including mass, silent demonstrations that were oppressed by violent, sadistic horsemen. None of these law-abiding actions achieved anything besides broken heads of naive people like you.
I hear your point but then why are you involved in a law-abiding movement ?
But even according to Martin Indyk and Bill Clinton, the illegal assasination prevented the total extermination of the Jewish people by Arab genocidal murderers whom Rabin was arming and funding. Had the Jewish people protested Rabin's war against the Jewish people legally as you suggest, none of the Israeli posters on this forum were alive to post here.
We don't know that for sure. Once Rabin was dead, the Israeli establishment continued Rabin's policy of surrender and betrayal. Other puppets took over from Rabin. In 2000, Barak offered Arafat a state on a golden plate. What prevented the establishment of the "Palestinian" state in Eretz Israel is more the stupidity of Arabs, especially Arafat, than Rabin's assassination.
Non-violent protests can be much more effective than an isolated assassination if they are massive. Imagine that a vast majority of the people of Israel would engage in a campaign of civil disobedience to oppose the surrender of its land in Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem. No more transportation, no more businesses running, huge strikes and demonstrations. That would bring the Establishment down to its knees. That is what we ought to try to set off, in my opinion.
Yigal Amir risked his life and saved the live of millions of Jews, and instead of honoring him and thanking him for his brave devotion and love of Jews, you justify his oppression by the evil Bolshevik establishment. Just sick beyond words.
Dr Dan did not condemn Yigal Amir. You are twisting his words.
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Aw that's a shame. You try to insult a veteran member. You're lucky I'm a nice guy and don't insult you back.
I respect those who give up their lives to save the Jewish people. I know the least I can do us work hard in my profession and donate to this cause.
Ron when you grow older I hope you understand the definition of respect. What you are doing is attempting to entrap me. This is what shabak does to the heroic Jews.
Yes. By creating a law abiding movement. Luckily yigal killed that tyrant. We should celebrate every year.
The assasination took place after all Democratic options to prevent the arming of weapons to terrorists were taken and drained, including mass, peaceful demonstrations that were oppressed by violent, sadistic horsemen. None of these peaceful actions achieved anything besides broken heads of naive people like you. Israel is not a Democratic State for ideological rivals of the regime to take power or have influence.
But even according to Martin Indyk and Bill Clinton, the assasination prevented the total extermination of the Jewish people by Arab genocidal murderers whom Rabin was arming and funding. Had the Jewish people protested Rabin's war against the Jewish people legally as you suggest, none of the Israeli posters on this forum were alive to post here.
Yigal Amir risked his life and saved the live of millions of Jews, and instead of honoring him and thanking him for his brave devotion and love of Jews, you justify his oppression by the evil Bolshevik establishment. Just sick beyond words.
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Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.
Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?
For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization. You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves. The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death. Amir should be let free.
We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.
Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.
Where does Torah law endorse assassinations? I am no fan of Rabin and wish Amir well but he did not help the Jews with his action.
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Yitzchak Rabin was endangering the lives of millions of Jews - he was about to give in Judea and Samaria, including Jerusalem and the Golan Heights (according to Martin Indyk) to Arab mass-murdering terrorists he was funding, training and arming. Even Bill Clinton admitted last month that had Rabin lived, in 3 years the entire Yosh (Judea and Samaria) region including Jerusalem would have been given in to the Arab terrorists and would have become a base for the genocidal, Nazi, fanatical Jew murderers of Arafat. Had this happened, Israel would have been wiped off the face of the earth and the Jews would have faced a second Holocaust, this time on their own land. <<
HOw does this square with reports that Rabin was going to back out of Oslo. This one is probably more accurate but I don't believe Peres cancelled any of Rabin's plans as a result of an assassination.
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I hear your point but then why are you involved in a law-abiding movement ?
Where's the contradiction? we're debating the morals of illegal actions, not encourage them. But we never condemn them, and there's nothing illegal about teaching the outcomes of such actions.
We don't know that for sure. Once Rabin was dead, the Israeli establishment continued Rabin's policy of surrender and betrayal. Other puppets took over from Rabin. In 2000, Barak offered Arafat a state on a golden plate. What prevented the establishment of the "Palestinian" state in Eretz Israel is more the stupidity of Arabs, especially Arafat, than Rabin's assassination.
What Barak did 5 years after later does not matter. By this logic, we shouldn't praise the brave Jewish Maccabee heroes who fought against the Hellenist traitors and the Greeks because they didn't smash the Arabs as well. And even this example is not enough to explain the absurdity of this claim. The assasination of Rabin couldn't eliminate the entire regime, which will forever fight for Israel's elimination. But the assasination of the most powerful tyrant Israel had since Ben-Gurion saved Israel did save Israel back then. With Rabin alive, the Oslo process would have been completed and so is the Arab's genocidal war against Israel and the Jewish people, G-d forbid.
Non-violent protests can be much more effective than an isolated assassination if they are massive. Imagine that a vast majority of the people of Israel would engage in a campaign of civil disobedience to oppose the surrender of its land in Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem. No more transportation, no more businesses running, huge strikes and demonstrations. That would bring the Establishment down to its knees. That is what we ought to try to set off, in my opinion.
This is exactly what the Israeli public was doing. When Rabin went for Oslo, the public opinion opposed, mass demonstrations were taken place constantly (and ending with broken heads for the peaceful demonstrators), and the national suicide process was taking place big time.
When we finally burried Rabin the public opinion favored Oslo - and yet the process was significantly delayed.
After the Oslo War (second Intifada) the public opinion was yet again against national suicide - but Sharon succeeded in carrying out the mass expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif and its handing over to the Hamas murderers, with the peaceful demonstrations and marches brutally oppressed.
Conclusion: in order to carry out suicidal plans, the Left needs a strong "hawkish" leader, such as Begin, Rabin, Sharon and Bibi.
http://jtf.org/israel/israel.jewish.civil.war.part.three.htm
Dr Dan did not condemn Yigal Amir. You are twisting his words.
This is what I understood from this:
Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
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Aw that's a shame. You try to insult a veteran member. You're lucky I'm a nice guy and don't insult you back.
I respect those who give up their lives to save the Jewish people. I know the least I can do us work hard in my profession and donate to this cause.
Ron when you grow older I hope you understand the definition of respect. What you are doing is attempting to entrap me. This is what shabak does to the heroic Jews.
Come on Dr. Dan, where did I tell you to break the law? we were simply discussing the outcomes and morals of illegal actions. I didn't tell you to go and shoot traitors.
And I did not insult you (at least I didn't intend to). But your last sentence was as insulting as calling me a Nazi.
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Actually perhaps I misspoke. I don't really know what the halacha would be in this case. (I think I was confusing this situation with Baruch Goldstein who definitely was backed up by the halacha). Has this been discussed anywhere?
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Where does Torah law endorse assassinations?
Ever heard of Din Rodef and Din Moser? of Moshe, King David, The Maccabees, Jehu son of Nimshi, Pinchas, the Irgun and Lehi, etc etc etc etc?
If you think Din Rodef is cancelled, you must oppose killing Arab Nazis. The problem is that you don't think so, you just believe in State Worship (Fascism) which gives the prime minister of Israel the sanctity under which he's allowed to to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. But between Fascism and Judaism there is no connection.
he did not help the Jews with his action.
Refuted already.
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Actually perhaps I misspoke. I don't really know what the halacha would be in this case. (I think I was confusing this situation with Baruch Goldstein who definitely was backed up by the halacha). Has this been discussed anywhere?
I would be more than blessed to participate in such a dicussion and back up Yigal's heroism Halachically.
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HOw does this square with reports that Rabin was going to back out of Oslo.
Rabin also said he was against it before he did it. Who cares what his populist, attention-seeking daughter said? And why the hell are you believing this garbage?
This one is probably more accurate but I don't believe Peres cancelled any of Rabin's plans as a result of an assassination.
I answered this in my response to Yaakov.
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If ones thinks Judaism opposes assasination, he must oppose killing Arab Nazis. The problem is that he doesn't think so, he just believes in State Worship (Fascism) which gives the prime minister of Israel the sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. But between Fascism and Judaism there is no connection.
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You put words in my mouth and you called me naive. I find that to be insulting. You have drawn outlandish conclusions calling me a supporter of communism over Torah law. You put words in my mouth suggesting that I supported the torture of yigal amir. You already made up your mind and drew conclusions which are quite harsh to fellow compadre. I'm not supposed to feel insulted?! What you had dine is the very thing shabak does. they put words in the mouths of Jewish heroes in order to entrap them.
Aw that's a shame. You try to insult a veteran member. You're lucky I'm a nice guy and don't insult you back.
I respect those who give up their lives to save the Jewish people. I know the least I can do us work hard in my profession and donate to this cause.
Ron when you grow older I hope you understand the definition of respect. What you are doing is attempting to entrap me. This is what shabak does to the heroic Jews.
Come on Dr. Dan, where did I tell you to break the law? we were simply discussing the outcomes and morals of illegal actions. I didn't tell you to go and shoot traitors.
And I did not insult you (at least I didn't intend to). But your last sentence was as insulting as calling me a Nazi.
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If ones thinks Judaism opposes assasination, he must oppose killing Arab Nazis. The problem is that he doesn't think so, he just believes in State Worship (Fascism) which gives the prime minister of Israel the sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. But between Fascism and Judaism there is no connection.
When did I say believe in state worship and facism? Putting words in my mouth like shabak does.
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You put words in my mouth and you called me naive. I find that to be insulting. You have drawn outlandish conclusions calling me a supporter of communism over Torah law. You put words in my mouth suggesting that I supported the torture of yigal amir.
You don't support the imprisonment of Yigal?
Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Because this is what I understood from your own words.
You already made up your mind and drew conclusions which are quite harsh to fellow compadre. I'm not supposed to feel insulted?! What you had dine is the very thing shabak does. they put words in the mouths of Jewish heroes in order to entrap them.
I simply responded to what you said. You justified Amir's imprisonment because he did something illegal according to Bolshevik law. So I never responded to words I "put in your mouth", I simply replied what you yourself put in your mouth.
And Shabak doesn't portray Jewish heroes as law-abiders. They mostly convince Jews to do illegal actions, and sometimes convince Jews to submit to Bolshevik law through deception (e.g Yesha council and "Rabbis" such as Aviner during expulsions).
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When did I say believe in state worship and facism?
You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.
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Does any Jew have the 'right' to kill anyone he wants because he thinks the other is a rodef? I really don't think so. According to my understanding of the related laws, according to the story of Pinchas, we are not permitted to kill anyone at any time.
I believe in order to kill another Jew it is necessary to have the Sanhedrin find the offended guilty and a death sentence passed. In the case of a Rodef, as in the case of Pinchas, Pinchas was completely justified according to the Halacha.
But Judaism also has a number of commandments concerning respecting the Jewish king, not speaking badly about the Jewish courts and judges, etc.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088917/jewish/Chapter-One.htm
Halacha 7
What is implied? If the rodef was warned and continues to pursue his intended victim, even though he did not acknowledge the warning, since he continues his pursuit he should be killed.
If it is possible to save the pursued by damaging one of the limbs of the rodef, one should. Thus, if one can strike him with an arrow, a stone or a sword, and cut off his hand, break his leg, blind him or in another way prevent him from achieving his objective, one should do so.
If there is no way to be precise in one's aim and save the person being pursued without killing the rodef, one should kill him, even though he has not yet killed his victim. This is implied by Deuteronomy 25:11-12, which states: "If a man is fighting with his brother, and the wife of one... grabs the attacker by his private parts, you must cut off her hand; you may not show pity."
Halacha 8
There is no difference whether she grabs "his private parts" or any other organ that imperils his life. Similarly, the rodef may be a man or a woman. The intent of the verse is that whenever a person intends to strike a colleague with a blow that could kill him, the pursued should be saved by "cutting off the hand" of the rodef. If this cannot be done, the victim should be saved by taking the rodef's life, as the verse continues: "you may not show pity."
Halacha 9
This, indeed, is one of the negative mitzvot - not to take pity on the life of a rodef.
On this basis, our Sages ruled that when complications arise and a pregnant woman cannot give birth, it is permitted to abort the fetus in her womb, whether with a knife or with drugs. For the fetus is considered a rodef of its mother.
If the head of the fetus emerges, it should not be touched, because one life should not be sacrificed for another. Although the mother may die, this is the nature of the world.
Halacha 10
The laws of a rodef apply whether a person is pursuing a colleague with the intent of killing him, or a maiden that had been consecrated with the intent of raping her, as reflected by Deuteronomy 22:26, which establishes an equation between murder and rape, stating: "Just as when a man arises against his colleague and kills him, so too, is this matter i.e., the rape of a consecrated maiden."
The same principle is reflected by another verse within the passage, which states (Ibid.:27): "The consecrated maiden cried out, but there was no one to save her." Implied is that if there is someone who can save her, he must do so, using all means including taking the life of the pursuer.
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Halacha 13
When a person could prevent a murder or a rape by maiming the rodef's limbs, but did not take the trouble and instead saved the victim by killing the rodef, he is regarded as one who shed blood and is liable for death. Nevertheless, he should not be executed by the court.
Halacha 14
Whenever a person can save another person's life, but he fails to do so, he transgresses a negative commandment, as Leviticus 19:16 states: "Do not stand idly by while your brother's blood is at stake."
Similarly, this commandment applies when a person sees a colleague drowning at sea or being attacked by robbers or a wild animal, and he can save him himself or can hire others to save him. Similarly, it applies when he hears gentiles or mosrim conspiring to harm a colleague or planning a snare for him, and he does not inform him and notify him of the danger.46
And it applies when a person knows of a gentile or a man of force who has a complaint against a colleague, and he can appease the aggressor on behalf of his colleague, but he fails to do so. And similarly, in all analogous instances, a person who fails to act transgresses the commandment: "Do not stand idly by while your brother's blood is at stake."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1088917/jewish/Chapter-One.htm
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Interesting discussion of the concept of Rodef in regards to the case of Baruch Goldstein...
http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/goldstein.html
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Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?
He doesn't. Did you read what he was really saying?
In any case, a big, fat F-you to the people of Israel for agreeing with this abomination.
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Yigal Amir has been prisoned. That's a punishment set for by Israel. What Amir did was a good thing. But because he broke the law and got caught by killing a head of state, he had to be put in jail. He is a hero because he sacrificed his life for the Israelis. But he got caught, he has to do time in jail and now I think he should be free. I think the world and all Israelis and Jews should thank him for what he did, but they didn't. In an ideal world this is what I would have wanted. He get a hero's welcome and never be put in jail. But since that's not the case, he's in jail. He has been punished by Israel. And I think his punishment is enough and he should be free. If Yigal Amir ran away and came to my house I would hide him and not turn him in. If I knew anything of his whereabouts, I would deny I knew anything. Outright lie.
So no, he did not deserve punishment, but since he did get punished already, it's time to let him go.
You put words in my mouth and you called me naive. I find that to be insulting. You have drawn outlandish conclusions calling me a supporter of communism over Torah law. You put words in my mouth suggesting that I supported the torture of yigal amir.
You don't support the imprisonment of Yigal?
Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.
Because this is what I understood from your own words.
You already made up your mind and drew conclusions which are quite harsh to fellow compadre. I'm not supposed to feel insulted?! What you had dine is the very thing shabak does. they put words in the mouths of Jewish heroes in order to entrap them.
I simply responded to what you said. You justified Amir's imprisonment because he did something illegal according to Bolshevik law. So I never responded to words I "put in your mouth", I simply replied what you yourself put in your mouth.
And Shabak doesn't portray Jewish heroes as law-abiders. They mostly convince Jews to do illegal actions, and sometimes convince Jews to submit to Bolshevik law through deception (e.g Yesha council and "Rabbis" such as Aviner during expulsions).
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When did I say believe in state worship and facism?
You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.
Here's the issue...what if it was the other way around? Let's you, Ron, was the righteous prime minister and an evil Jew felt you were evil and assassinated you? But justified it that it was due to his sick version of Torah justice? Let's say he thought that your desire to provoke wars was going to kill Jews and he killed you for that reason? Is that ok? Of course not. The point is that there are certain laws to keep peace in society...The Torah teaches that as well.
I would never encourage physical murder of a Jew. I would be happy if an evil Jew was killed. I would protect that righteous person who saved lives to kill an enemy even if it was illegal for him to pursue the law "in his own hands".
The law of the land in Israel is not to murder the head of state. It's there for a reason. If Kahane was prime minister, I would hope leftist would follow the same law and pursue protests instead of his assassination. So Yigal Amir broke what you call a Facist rule. Fine. He went to jail. Now he should be free because what he did wasn't bad. He took the law into his own hands. I support that. But he got caught. He had to go to jail. Now he should be free.
I think it is very reasonable to have laws that prohibit assassinating an elected Israeli Jewish prime minister. But if there is an evil one that puts Jewish lives in danger, I wouldn't sanction his physical murder personally. I might pray he dies of cancer or a bus hit him and let Gd do the justice. But if someone else does it, I'll be happy too. And that person finds me and wants me to hide him, I will.
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Read between the lines folks. Dr. Dan is not condemning the hero Yigal Amir in any way.
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Read between the lines folks. Dr. Dan is not condemning the hero Yigal Amir in any way.
DBF, thanks. I know I'm more soft spoken on this issue because to be honest, I'm not really sure if Yigal Amir did the right thing, entrapt or not. That's not to say that I'm unhappy that Rabin is no longer alive.
If JTF weren't a law abiding organization, I would have a tough time being here. The reason why I have been so comfortable being a HUGE supporter of this movement for the past 4 years is because we are law abiding and want to take control in legal ways.
Now if things were to get out of hand in Israel or the US that warrented JDL tactics, I wouldn't participate in those actions, but would still applaud them.
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When did I say believe in state worship and facism?
You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.
It may be that what concerns Dr. Dan (and others who probably are reading and agree with him) is that this logic would cause almost every current Israeli politician to be assassinated in the streets (and/or for attempts to be made on them), if enough people adopted this logic - because of their current agenda and policies. So this logic is naturally considered dangerous.
Perhaps many don't realize that aside from assigning extra security detail, and enacting certain draconian measures to keep the populace at bay, there would be drastic political repercussions in reaction to an atmosphere such as that. The type of reactions (read: concessions, major policy changes) which were induced by certain well known arab militia groups we are all (too) familiar with.
So, these concerns (about the danger of the above logic) while rational and decent concerns from the perspective of any civilized western denizen interested in maintaining the status quo of law and order and comfortable living, may in fact be a hindrance to the goals of the Jewish people in the extreme case and emergency situation that Am Yisrael finds itself in.
I think that is food for thought for all people participating in this thread.
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When did I say believe in state worship and facism?
You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.
Here's the issue...what if it was the other way around? Let's [say] you, Ron, was the righteous prime minister and an evil Jew felt you were evil and assassinated you? But justified it that it was due to his sick version of Torah justice? Let's say he thought that your desire to provoke wars was going to kill Jews and he killed you for that reason? Is that ok? Of course not.
Dr. Dan that's a great point - I'm glad you raised that. That was something that occurred to me as well over the course of this thread but I didn't give it enough consideration. How do we deal with something like that if someone or someones are breeding a sense of lawlessness into society and the tables get turned on the righteous people?
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When did I say believe in state worship and facism?
You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.
It may be that what concerns Dr. Dan (and others who probably are reading and agree with him) is that this logic would cause almost every current Israeli politician to be assassinated in the streets (and/or for attempts to be made on them), if enough people adopted this logic - because of their current agenda and policies. So this logic is naturally considered dangerous.
Perhaps many don't realize that aside from assigning extra security detail, and enacting certain draconian measures to keep the populace at bay, there would be drastic political repercussions in reaction to an atmosphere such as that. The type of reactions (read: concessions, major policy changes) which were induced by certain well known arab militia groups we are all (too) familiar with.
So, these concerns (about the danger of the above logic) while rational and decent concerns from the perspective of any civilized western denizen interested in maintaining the status quo of law and order and comfortable living, may in fact be a hindrance to the goals of the Jewish people in the extreme case and emergency situation that Am Yisrael finds itself in.
I think that is food for thought for all people participating in this thread.
I should have majored in English. Thanks for the elaborate explanation.
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My wife told me of a Jewish observance called tzom gadalia or something like that. He was a Jewish king assassinated by another Jew for trying to "work out a deal with the Romans to 'help the Jews'"
Perhaps the Torah law states that we should not take allies from another nation and trust amalek. This one Jew thought this king was putting other Jews in danger and assassinated him. The net result was the that the rabbis made an observance out. If this is inaccurate please correct me.
Some Jews likened Rabin's assassination to tzom gadalia. Rabin was no gadalia however I can understand the frustration of most reasonable Israelis who meant well and observe the assassination as a bad thing for Israeli history. Can someone drunk this claim? I put it on the next askjtf.
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When did I say believe in state worship and facism?
You said an enemy and traitor of the Jewish people must not be killed just because he is a head of State - in other words, the prime minister of Israel is given sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. Only Fascism gives sanctity to the state and its institutions. Hence my post.
It may be that what concerns Dr. Dan (and others who probably are reading and agree with him) is that this logic would cause almost every current Israeli politician to be assassinated in the streets (and/or for attempts to be made on them), if enough people adopted this logic - because of their current agenda and policies. So this logic is naturally considered dangerous.
Perhaps many don't realize that aside from assigning extra security detail, and enacting certain draconian measures to keep the populace at bay, there would be drastic political repercussions in reaction to an atmosphere such as that. The type of reactions (read: concessions, major policy changes) which were induced by certain well known arab militia groups we are all (too) familiar with.
So, these concerns (about the danger of the above logic) while rational and decent concerns from the perspective of any civilized western denizen interested in maintaining the status quo of law and order and comfortable living, may in fact be a hindrance to the goals of the Jewish people in the extreme case and emergency situation that Am Yisrael finds itself in.
I think that is food for thought for all people participating in this thread.
I should have majored in English. Thanks for the elaborate explanation.
I'm trying to be discreet with my language
We are law-abiding afterall :)
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One nationalist noted that after Rabin's assassination the anti Oslo demonstrations lost their secular participants. Amir caused pro nationalist Jews to be marginalized.
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Does any Jew have the 'right' to kill anyone he wants because he thinks the other is a rodef? I really don't think so. According to my understanding of the related laws, according to the story of Pinchas, we are not permitted to kill anyone at any time.
I believe in order to kill another Jew it is necessary to have the Sanhedrin find the offended guilty and a death sentence passed. In the case of a Rodef, as in the case of Pinchas, Pinchas was completely justified according to the Halacha.
Muman don't twist the Torah. Pinchas killed Zimri after NOBODY listened to him. He killed "he who he wanted to kill" because he "thought Zimri was a Rodef". He literally "took the law to his hands" and was eternally blessed by Hashem for that. And you think we should wait until the Sanhedrin in order to kill Rodfim then don't be a hypocrite and don't support the killing of Arabs who are Rodfim.
There is an obligation to kill a Rodef (Masechet Shabbat, Daf 15; Rabeinu Asher's responsa Klal 17 for example) and Moser (Rambam, Halchot Chovel U'Mazzik Chapter 8 Halacha 10) even when the court no longer metes out capital punishment (in other words, he who comes to slay you, slay him first is relevant even when the court no longer metes out capital punishment) and Rabin was both.
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As a moral matter it is not right for Jews to settle their differences by killing each other. If we do enough of that we will not have many people left (we are few enough in numbers now) and we will devolve into Arabs and other third worlders who settle everything with murder. If it is correct to murder Rabin then what about the Supreme Court, the media leftists etc. And then what about the hundreds of thousands of Israeli eltists who support these institutions and then what about the millions who say they oppose them but when push comes to shove don't.
As a practical matter, the Rabin murder was a negative for the nationalists. It marginalized the pro settler and nationalist Jews. Non kippah wearing protesters disappeared from anti-Oslo protests. Oslo has been set in stone as a part of Israel's policy. I don't care how many self serving quotes are offered up by Clinton or any of his staff, the only reason that the savages are not currently in legal control (they are practically speaking in physical control in many aspects) of Judea, Samaria, the Golan and Jerusalem is because they have been too stupid to take it when offered. Whether it is Rabin, Peres, Nethanyahu, Barak, Sharon or Nethanyahu the policy has largely remained the same. Israel will give these areas away to any Arab who will take them.
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As a moral matter it is not right for Jews to settle their differences by killing each other. If we do enough of that we will not have many people left (we are few enough in numbers now) and we will devolve into Arabs and other third worlders who settle everything with murder. If it is correct to murder Rabin then what about the Supreme Court, the media leftists etc.
Not to mention the pedophiles and rapists. There would be a lot of blood flowing. But a lot of people saved too.