JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mifletzet on June 09, 2007, 04:43:44 PM
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Former Sefardi Chief Rabbis Ovadiya Yosef and Mordechai Eliyahu dress the same and look similar.
But politically they are poles apart.
Chaim says that one is a "completely insane, senile degenerate" and that the other is a tzaddik gamur.
Is it known what they think or say about eachother?
(http://www.jewlicious.com/wp-content/uploads/mordichieliyahu.jpg)
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/images/2001/010410_rabino300.jpg)
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They are both Tzaddikim Gemurim.
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Mordechai Eliyahu
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There obviously can be good and bad in any religious field, including at the very top. How many hundreds of years was Catholicism dominated by wickedly anti-Semitic and Crusadist jihad pontiffs?
Therefore, it only goes to show that chief rabbis can also vary dramatically in character.
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Rabbi Eliyahu is a mystic, mekubal. Rabbi Yosef is a halachic, talmudic genius, and the psak for sephardim.
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What is a mystic mekubal?
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The study of Kabbalah. Not the Kabbalah of Madonna, Britney Spears, and these other pieces of trash, but real Kabbalah that only a selected few people from a generation are allowed to study, and practice. To study Kabbalah you have to be over 40 years of age, learned on the ENTIRE Tanach, Shas, have a beard, and be a man. Only a selected few rabbis can study this mystic art, and whoever studys it without being allowed, harm will come onto them. A great book on kabbalah even for goyim, is Faith and Folly: by: Rabbi Yaakov Hillel. In hebrew it is called "Tamim Tihiye" by the same rabbi.
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Dominater don't refer to gentiles as goyim on here. Even though the word is not inherently derogatory but I believe you are using it as such. Rabbi Ovadia Yosef has just sold the the jews out again with his enthusiastic support of shimon peresite. Not surprised as ovadia also wants to surrender Jerusalem. The official platform of shas is that you are allowed to give away land for peace. That is all we need to know. Ovadia Yosef is a traitor and he might be a scholar but it does him no good.
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I meant no disrespect by using the word goy, goyim means nations in hebrew. And thats what Hacham Ovadia believes to be the halacha. If giving away land= saving people, then you can give away land. And Ovadia Yosef is in no way, shape, or form, a traitor.
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I meant no disrespect by using the word goy, goyim means nations in hebrew. And thats what Hacham Ovadia believes to be the halacha. If giving away land= saving people, then you can give away land. And Ovadia Yosef is in no way, shape, or form, a traitor.
Ovadia said that anyone who votes for his party is going to Gan Eden, while those who don't are going to hell. Please, separate his politics, which are traitorous, from his halachot, which are actually quite good. He might be a talmid hakham, but I wouldn't put his picture up in my house.
Where did he say this? And you torah is on a higher level than politics.
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I suggest you guys look in their eyes. They will reveal to you everything.
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How do you separate halacha from politics? The guy believes saving Arab life comes before everything else--how does that not reflect on his Torah skills?
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How do you separate halacha from politics? The guy believes saving Arab life comes before everything else--how does that not reflect on his Torah skills?
You are a real idiot if you believe that Hacham Ovadia believes that. Does the rabbi believe that? NO. Dont be a liar.And he believes JEWISH life come before everything, not Arab life. And dont call the rabbi "guy". Have some respect for the Jewish religion, and call the rabbi by his proper name. Rabbi Yosef, or Hacham Ovadia.
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Mods, how long will you tolerate this? This is a Jewish forum isnt it?
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Dominater, you are correct expect Rav Mordechai Eliyahu HaTzadik is also great in Halacha, you (and all Jews) should learn his perush on the Shulchan Aruch. I remember that on his death bed Rav Kaduri said we should follow Rav Mordechai Eliyahu shlita in all things.
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Mods, how long will you tolerate this? This is a Jewish forum isnt it?
I've about had it with you. First you insult me, by telling me that I am going to hell in a previous post for criticizing Ovadia, and then you insult the goyim like Chaimfan on this forum by telling them they have no right to criticize him. Here is what the tzaddik had to say on all the Jewish BLOOD MONEY he recieved: "A little is not enough for us. We want more and more – not only Torah but also good deeds. Four years ago we managed to get a big budget, build 138 mikvehs and renovate another 156 around the country. We installed beautiful tiles; even Achashverosh’s floor wasn't that nice.
btw, here is where he said that all those who vote for shas go to gan eden, but those that don't go to hell. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3229425,00.html
No, under Halacha Goyim do not have the right to criticize Gedolai Yisrael. May those Goyim who attack the Tzadikim have their mouths fill with dust and their hands never write again.
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Can you read? Did Rabbi Ovadia Yosef say those words?????? NO he didnt another Shas leader did.
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So us 2nd class gentiles aren't allowed to question Ovadia Yosef on anything he does and if we do, we should burn in hell and have our hands turn to dust, etc, etc? If this attitude is tolerated, why should gentiles support this forum? Really. People like kahaneloyalist and dominator love to attack us, condemn our faith and call us nasty terms like goyim. I'm bloody sick of it! Either we're equals or not. He's one of the most learned in the world on these matters. I don't question Rav Yosef's halachic knowledge. But if we cannot even question his politics without getting "burn in hell" proclamations from some people then what are we doing here?
I'm sorry but I'm still hot over when kahaneloyalist accused my savior Jesus Christ of being an informer and in league with the Romans who put him on the cross.
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So us 2nd class gentiles aren't allowed to question Ovadia Yosef on anything he does and if we do, we should burn in hell and have our hands turn to dust, etc, etc? If this attitude is tolerated, why should gentiles support this forum? Really. People like kahaneloyalist and dominator love to attack us, condemn our faith and call us nasty terms like goyim. I'm bloody sick of it! Either we're equals or not. He's one of the most learned in the world on these matters. I don't question Rav Yosef's halachic knowledge. But if we cannot even question his politics without getting "burn in hell" proclamations from some people then what are we doing here?
I'm sorry but I'm still hot over when kahaneloyalist accused my savior Jesus Christ of being an informer and in league with the Romans who put him on the cross.
Do what you want, but I am still "hot" over you calling for the death of Jews who condemn Jesus and Christianity, and you are a Goy, it just means non-Jew. If I wanted to insult you there are many words I could use that actually are insults.
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So us 2nd class gentiles aren't allowed to question Ovadia Yosef on anything he does and if we do, we should burn in hell and have our hands turn to dust, etc, etc? If this attitude is tolerated, why should gentiles support this forum? Really. People like kahaneloyalist and dominator love to attack us, condemn our faith and call us nasty terms like goyim. I'm bloody sick of it! Either we're equals or not. He's one of the most learned in the world on these matters. I don't question Rav Yosef's halachic knowledge. But if we cannot even question his politics without getting "burn in hell" proclamations from some people then what are we doing here?
I'm sorry but I'm still hot over when kahaneloyalist accused my savior Jesus Christ of being an informer and in league with the Romans who put him on the cross.
Do what you want, but I am still "hot" over you calling for the death of Jews who condemn Jesus and Christianity, and you are a Goy, it just means non-Jew. If I wanted to insult you there are many words I could use that actually are insults.
kahaneloyalist, where did thunderbolt call for the death of Jews for insulting Jesus, give me a quote.
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http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4667.0 (http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=4667.0)
This Jewish kid in the video should be executed. Nowhere in the Torah does it say to hate gentiles and bar them from being in Israel. If a state were to arise with this kind of attitude it would be just as against G-d as the current Israel state. It would be destroyed by G-d.
I believe he originally said such Jews should be killed but modified his post later on.
What is the JTF board position on Jews who openly hate Christianity? Can this be clarified please? I don't want to get into trouble by saying terrible things should happen to these evil Jews. I find it very hypocritical that people are crying about hoping for bad Jews to die as opposed to Christians and other peoples. IMO A Jew who says he's happy that Christ died and that Christians are scum is an evil person.
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I think that you are overstating what he said. I will talk to him about it though.
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There is no need, I believe Jimmy has already addressed the issue
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There is no need, I believe Jimmy has already addressed the issue
If so, why are you still complaining.
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There is no need, I believe Jimmy has already addressed the issue
If so, why are you still complaining.
You asked where thunderbolt said to kill Jews, and my first comment was in response to his anger at my statements about Jesus
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Yacov, how did I insult him? I repeated his position that sparing Arab life is a worthy cause. How did I use anything insulting or derogatory?
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kahaneloyalist, stop trying to deflect. I apologized for my inappropriate and stupid comments.
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Yacov, how did I insult him? I repeated his position that sparing Arab life is a worthy cause. How did I use anything insulting or derogatory?
It seems you do not understand his position. He holds that if giving away land will save JEWISH life, then it is permitted to give it up, to save JEWISH LIVES.
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So as long as he bases his political decisions on his interpretation of the Jewish faith, people are not allowed to question him on it?
I'm trying to understand.
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No a fellow posek can challenge him, not someone who is unlearned in the halcha, and not jewish.
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Can you provide proof backing up the notion he cannot be questioned? What do you think of Chaim disagreeing with Rav Yosef on the giving away from land for peace?
Dominator, can you understand the discomfort of non-Jews who believe Israel should never give an inch of land?
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No a fellow posek can challenge him, not someone who is unlearned in the halcha, and not jewish.
The Jews are not a master race, I see nothing in the tanakh to suggest that Jews who have studied the torah a lot are always right either, to say someone's word cannot be challenged is to put them on a level with God, now I'm opposed to resorting to personal insults, but if it seams clear that someone is wrong on a key issue, what's wrong with pointing it out? And don't give me the word of some other Rabbi or scholar, they could potentially be wrong, if you haven't got a logical coherrant argument, or a direct quote from a prophet or God himself, then shut up.
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This is off the top of my head, but its the best I can do without opening a sefer. Theres a story of Rabban Gamliel (the Nasi), and Rabbi Yehoshua, about when the date of yom kippur really was. Long story short Rabbam Gamliel made rabbi yehoshua bring items to beit hamidrash, that wouldve been forbidden to bring on yom kippur, on the day that Rabbi yehoshua thought was yom kippur, to show that you have to listen to the chief rabbi. Rabbi Gamliel ended up ended up getting in trouble for embarrasing him, but he was right in making the rest of the Jews make sure they listen to the chief rabbi. Kal vachomer, a person who doesnt know the halachot, and isnt even a jew, to criticize a gadol hador, let alone one of the biggest rabbis of the generation. That is why Rabbi Eliyahu, and rabbi Elyashev, and Rav Shapira can disagree with him, because they are also great, learned, Gedoli hador.I dont remember the page of the masechet right now, but ill think a little bit. Ill find some other sources in yeshivah tommorow.
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That is not a logical coherrant argument for putting chief rabbis beyond criticism. It's just an example of one guy messing up.
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Guys, leave Chaimfan alone. He wasn't calling Rabbi Yosef names, just stating why he disagrees with the man. He's an excellent member of this forum, and is entitled to his opinion, as we all are. So let's all stick to the facts here and not jump down Chaimfan and Thunderbolt's throats.
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Sure, all Shas wants is money. Thats why they were made, and that is why they exist, to get money from the gov't to give to kollel men.
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No a fellow posek can challenge him, not someone who is unlearned in the halcha, and not jewish.
I'm sorry but Rabbis are not G-d. They are human and fallible. And people on the forum have every right to either agree or disagree with them as long as they are civil, and use facts to back up their assertions.
Now I am Jewish, and I have never ever heard my parents, or any of my relatives saying any rabbi is above disagreement or criticism.
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And there's one more thing I would like to add.
The Christians on the forum are not disagreeing with Rabbi Yosef for the sake of being anti-Semitic. As I see it, they are simply bewildered at seeing Jews accept the suicidal ruling of these rabbis.
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It appears to me that Denomitator is being brainwashed by the Yeshiva he's going to. If you speak to the old Jews over 80 of several generations back, you will discover that these Charedim are trying to change our religion by making up the nonsense he is saying. I suggest he read the Rambam and Pirkai Avot. And when he's finished, pick up a Tanach and try to find me anywhere where it says the Jews didn't fight the enemy but were learning instead. Lol. He thinks it's OK for learners to support Shas because they are giving them money even though the party is a disgraceful sell out. This is why the Rambam said that learners who don't work and support themselves off charity are disgracing the name of G-d and will go to hell.
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Lisa, thanks for sticking up for me.
Everybody, I did not think I said anything insulting at all about ROY. I know I did in the past, but Chaim asked me to stop and I did. In this thread, I repeated his view that giving up Jewish land is worth "saving lives". I am not an expert about him by any means, besides what Chaim has pointed out, but I construed his words to mean Arab lives. If he indeed does mean that, he is flat-out wrong in every way.
That aside, it appears to be fairly well-known that he has received generous compensation from various Israeli governments for his promotion of Oslo and other surrender agreements among the Sephardim. That, in my opinion, is far worse than just having leftist beliefs. That speaks to his entire character, not just his Torahic/Talmudic accuracy.
So, those are my opinions of him. Chaim has said that the vast majority of high Torah scholarly rabbis in Israel disagree with him. Either they are all wrong and he is right or the opposite is true. Chaim has said that if all Torah rabbis on Israel decide on something that he will obey them and accept their ruling under all circumstances, but that is not the case with Ovadia Yosef. He is in the minority.
Yacov, if Mitfleziet is Nonny, I think we should ignore all of his or her posts and threads from here on out. He or she has obviously succeeded in stirring up trouble here once more.
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jdl4ever is correct when he says learning Torah at the expense of work, military service, etc is a haredi belief. It unfortunately is seeping into other streams of Judaism with sad results.
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Chaim said not to insult Ovadiah Yosef.
Where did Chaim say this?
In 2001 on this audio clip http://www.bestsharing.com/files/gqfWPc265042/shas.wav.html
Chaim calls Rabbi Ovadia Yosef as "Ovadia Kessef", "a degenerate", "completely and utterly insane", "senile", "a moron" etc etc.
Has Chaim recanted since then?!
If Shimon Peres becomes president thanks to Ovadia Yosef, he will go down with Shevna, Yerovam, Korach, Doeg, Achitofel and the other "Halachic greats", who nevertheless lost their Olam Haba for going so mightily against Hashem's ratzon!
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Revava locked this topic on their forum.
Good idea, you should do the same.