JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: nopeaceforland on May 15, 2011, 03:09:00 PM
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Guys, what is happening with these stupid billboards? For those who haven't seen it, there are signs about "Judgment Day is coming 5/21/11" everywhere.
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Guys, what is happening with these stupid billboards? For those who haven't seen it, there are signs about "Judgment Day is coming 5/21/11" everywhere.
I did not pay attention, but my peripheral neural network has the impression that this is due to a Christian understanding of Bible codes which supposedly predict that 'judgement day' will occur on May 21, 2011. According to Jewish Kabbalah the day seems to have no real importance, at least not according to the one Rabbi I listen to who investigates Torah Codes. Rabbi Glazerson has found a Torah code which reveals the date of Osama Bin Ladens death, but he revealed it after the event occured. This is because it is very difficult to use Torah codes to firmly confirm future events. We believe that everything that occurs, and will occur, is somehow represented in Torah codes... But it is very nearly impossible to use them to predict the future...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLJ6w3AfFDA
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The thing I don't get is how these doomsday groups get so much recognition and publicity in just a small amount of time. Who is funding them?
I have seen a resurgence of Doomsday discussions recently. I was under the impression it was due to the Mayan prophecy of 2012.
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We can laugh at the people who believed it on 5/22/11
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I have seen a resurgence of Doomsday discussions recently. I was under the impression it was due to the Mayan prophecy of 2012.
The Mayan doomsday was proven to be a couple hundred years off.
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Guys, what is happening with these stupid billboards? For those who haven't seen it, there are signs about "Judgment Day is coming 5/21/11" everywhere.
I don't know, but May's stock options contracts expire on that date, so maybe people have a lot of money hanging in the balance and indeed their judgement will come that day!
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We believe that everything that occurs, and will occur, is somehow represented in Torah codes... But it is very nearly impossible to use them to predict the future...
Speak for yourself. I do not believe this, and many frum Jews do not believe this. Not everyone subscribes to the so-called "Torah codes." And I mean A LOT of frum Jews.
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The only worst thing is that the times are really getting worst. But the fear if any shall be kept away.
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We believe that everything that occurs, and will occur, is somehow represented in Torah codes...
Speak for yourself. I do not believe this, and many frum Jews do not believe this. Not everyone subscribes to the so-called "Torah codes." And I mean A LOT of frum Jews.
You certainly can disagree, but the concept that everything is in the Torah comes straight from the Talmud. Whether this refers to Torah Codes, or hiddent secret wisdom, can be debated.
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5759/tetzaveh.html
The Talmud asks:
Where is there an allusion to Haman in the Torah? "From (heh, mem, nun) the tree did you eat?" (Bereishis 3:11). (Chullin 139b)
Purim was a holiday that was established after the Torah was written down. The Torah ended its narration with Moshe's death in 2448/1273 BCE, and the miracle of Purim didn't occur until the year 3408/353 BCE. The Talmud, basing itself on the well-known principle that everything is in the Torah, looked for and found a hint to the story of Purim, even though it occurred long after the close of Torah.
However, the Talmud wasn't simply looking for a matching word. Yes, it is true that the word G-d used to ask Adam if he had eaten from the forbidden Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil has the same letters as Haman. Nevertheless, the Talmud's question runs deeper: What is the source of Haman in creation? What made the existence of Amalek possible in creation in the first place? What empowered him to do evil in G-d's world?
http://ohr.edu/holidays/purim/the_story_of_purim/1485
The Torah is the blueprint of reality. Through this blueprint, the great Rabbis of every generation have illuminated and elucidated the world we live in. They know this blueprint to a depth and subtlety which is almost beyond comprehension. They can see into the depths of the world's construction just like a builder visualizes a building by looking at its blueprint. Nothing is new to them because everything is in the Torah. G-d gives these Torah sages a power - a distant hint of prophecy - to guide the Jewish People. It is they who can read His "guidebook" better than anyone else. Everything is contained in the Torah, either explicitly or covertly, but it takes a Rabbi Akiva, a Maharal or a Vilna Gaon to be able to accurately extract its meaning and apply it to a contemporary context. The great talmidei chachamim (Torah Scholars) of every generation are given a unique insight into the ways of the world. This qualifies them to lead the Jewish People as no one else can.
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I have already stated that I don't put much faith in codes which purport to predict future events. It is always interesting to see what the codes say after the fact...
See this page for info on Torah Codes : http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/3126
RABBI MOSHE CORDEVARO on Torah Codes
RABBI MOSHE CORDEVARO (1522-1570), also known as the Ramak, served in the illustrious position of Head of the Rabbinical Court ("Av Beit Din") in Tzfat, Israel, during the 16th century - a time when Tzfat stood as the worldwide center for Jewish scholarship. The following piece appears in Pardes Rimonim (68a), the Ramak's voluminous commentary on the classic kabbalistic work, The Zohar.
"The secrets of our holy Torah are revealed through knowledge of combinations, numerology (gematria), switching letters, first-and-last letters, shapes of letters, first- and last- verses, skipping of letters (dilug otiot) and letter combinations."
These matters are powerful, hidden and enormous secrets. Because of their great hidden-ness, we don't have the ability to fully comprehend them. Further, to see different angles through these methods is infinite and without limit. On this the Torah says, "its measure is longer than the world."
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http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/3204
Vilna Gaon on Torah Codes
THE VILNA GAON (1720-1797), also known as the GRA, is acknowledged as one of the greatest rabbis of the past 500 years. At age 5, the GRA knew the Five Books of Moses by heart; he went on to author numerous volumes of Jewish philosophy and law. The following piece appears in his commentary on a work of Jewish mysticism, The Book of Hidden Things ("Sifra Ditzniuta" Chapter 5).
"The rule is that all that was, is, and will be until the end of time is included in the Torah from "Bereishit" (the first verse of Genesis) to "L'eynei kol Yisrael" (the last verse of Deuteronomy). And not merely in a general sense, but including the details of every species and of each person individually, and the most minute details of everything that happened to him from the day of his birth until his death."
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And one last point I want to make... When I say 'We' of course I am not speaking for all Jews. I am just speaking for those whom I have learned with and from... I realize that there are different beliefs and I don't mean to negate them...
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Everything is in the Torah. I don't know if the codes we have are real, however.
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Speak for yourself. I do not believe this, and many frum Jews do not believe this. Not everyone subscribes to the so-called "Torah codes." And I mean A LOT of frum Jews.
You certainly can disagree, but the concept that everything is in the Torah comes straight from the Talmud. Whether this refers to Torah Codes, or hiddent secret wisdom, can be debated.
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5759/tetzaveh.html
http://ohr.edu/holidays/purim/the_story_of_purim/1485
You have misinterpreted what you quoted.
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http://torahsearch.com/page.cfm/3204
Is this a joke?
"TORAH CODES" did not exist in the Vilna Gaon's time. That term has a specific meaning today, and it refers to predictions of future events based on related words appearing with "ELS's" - equidistant letter sequences. They are being deceptive with articles like this. The Vilna Gaon had various textual methodologies to uncovering ideas in the Torah. This did not include what is done today with ELS's, computers, and "predicting" events after they already happened.
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You have misinterpreted what you quoted.
I am not sure if I did. What you said is that a lot of Jews don't believe Torah Codes. In a sense I am saying that Torah codes are a way of seeing that everything is indeed in the the Torah. That is my only point. That when we look into the Torah to see how events are 'in the Torah', these codes reveal that this understanding {that 'everything is in the Torah'} is true...
I am sorry if you feel I misrepresented you. Indeed I am aware that there are those who do not put any faith in what they call 'Torah Codes'. But you know that 'Torah Codes' simply refers to ELS {Equidistant Letter Sequenes} which are revealed by computers searching varying letter distances for names and places. The sages of the Talmud did similar things in order to understand Torah better, thus we have gematria and other numerical ways of understanding Torah.
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Is this a joke?
"TORAH CODES" did not exist in the Vilna Gaon's time. That term has a specific meaning today, and it refers to predictions of future events based on related words appearing with "ELS's" - equidistant letter sequences. They are being deceptive with articles like this. The Vilna Gaon had various textual methodologies to uncovering ideas in the Torah. This did not include what is done today with ELS's, computers, and "predicting" events after they already happened.
Indeed this method was used by the Rabbis of the Talmud. I believe the Baal HaTurim employed such methods.
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http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5764/kisisa.html
G-d told Moshe and Aharon, "Since you did not believe in Me to sanctify Me before the Children of Israel, you will therefore not bring this people into the land which I have given to them." (Bamidbar 20:12)
Those familiar with the Torah Codes may also be familiar with the controversy they have created. While some are clearly enthralled by them and see Divine messages in them, others dislike them, to say the least, for a variety of reasons, few of which have anything to do with a Torah outlook.
What is new is not Torah Codes, per se, but the usage of the computer to find them. For example, Rabbeinu Bachayay (1263-1340 CE) refers to the concept of dilug -(skip) in his commentary on Parashas Bereishis. Kabbalah itself uses all kinds of similar systems to bring to the surface hidden messages in the Torah, many of which are far more outlandish to the uninitiated than the Torah Codes.
Torah Codes, that is, words and phrases embedded in the verses of the Torah, but which are not easily seen by the eye, belong to the realm of Torah learning called Remez -(hint). Pshat refers to the simple reading of the verse, Remez to that which is learned through the anomalies in the verses and such, Drush to that which is part of the Oral Tradition but not necessarily evident from the verses themselves, and Sod to the Kabbalistic explanation of the words and phrases.
After the Twin Towers were destroyed, Torah code researchers began a computer search for allusions to this horrifying event that might be encoded in the Torah. Over the last two years their findings have been frighteningly accurate. They are a part of a specific presentation by the researchers that is available in papers and seminars, and hence, I am not going to describe their contents in this essay.
However, I do want to address an idea that is evoked from the principal location in Torah that the Twin Towers codes were found - i.e. just after the episode of the Parah Adumah, the Red Heifer, this week's special Maftir. For, as Rashi explains, the Red Heifer and all of the details, are none other than a rectification for the golden calf (Rashi, Bamidar 19:2).
The key word for this table of codes is the Hebrew word Ta-omim -(Twins), as in Ya'akov and Eisav. The number of letters that separate each of the letters is THIRTY-SIX - the number that represents the light with which G- d made Creation, gave Torah, and will bring the Final Redemption. It stands vertically like a tower, with its foundation (the final letter, Mem) in the posuk:
G-d told Moshe and Aharon, "Since you did not believe in Me to sanctify Me before the Children of Israel, you will therefore not bring this people into the land which I have given to them." (Bamidbar 20:12)
What was the big deal, and how did the punishment fit the crime? So Moshe brought water from the rock by hitting it as opposed to speaking to it, it was still a great miracle, wasn't it? And what did it have to do with living in Eretz Yisroel, that Moshe lost the right to go there as a result?
The answer has to do with the essential difference between certain TWIN brothers, and an essential difference that a Jew has to recognize and acknowledge if he is to find himself on the right side of the RED (Esaiv's favorite color) line, and for that matter, on the right side of the ocean.
For, as the Bais Levi teaches, it is the RED Heifer that is the key to ending Golus Edom, the exile of the one who was born RED and ruddy. It's no small wonder that the first nation we confront after the episode of the rock is Edom.
MELAVE MALKAH:
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Indeed this method was used by the Rabbis of the Talmud. I believe the Baal HaTurim employed such methods.
No, he didn't. There were no computers then. He did not use ELS's to "predict" events that had taken place. The modern-day invention called "Torah Codes" is a mathematical system based on statistical analysis. And it has been refuted scientifically. It was invented by Witztum, Rips, and Rosenberg. (Published in 1994). Another group used their same methodology but applied it to a Hebrew translation of War and Peace, and they were able to duplicate some of their supposed results/codes.
Furthermore, what you are saying is not consistent with what point you are trying to make. "predicting" a rabin assassination after it has already occurred (as just one famous example), based on some jumble of mathematical code and scrambling of letters from our Holy Text, is NOT the same thing as pointing out sod and remez level understandings of Torah (which IS what rabbinic scholars have often done, and using certain exegetical methods to do so)!
You are conflating multiple viewpoints in your attempt to defend the "Torah Codes" and in doing so you are arguing against a straw man in some cases. I do not disagree that certain textual methods can uncover sod level understandings of the parsha. Similarly, I do not disagree that certain ideas and profound wisdom are sometimes only hinted at by the Torah, which requires a deep investigative method by our greatest scholars to uncover. But I DO DISAGREE when you claim that the Torah predicts every single world event and contains every form of human knowledge. A simple proof against you is that the Tosfos and other rishonim say that we DO NOT follow the medical advice of the Talmud (not even talking Torah in that case, but Talmud, but the point is still the same - Chazal according to you should have been able to "divine" true medical knowledge and advice from the Torah text if it was really contained in there. But Torah is not a medical textbook, it does not contain that info, and therefore, when medicine advanced to a level higher than that known in the world chazal lived in, the Rabbinic scholars we rely on rightly advised that we should discard any outdated medical advice from a previous era even if it was recorded by chazal in our holy Talmud). Please think deeply about what I've said here.
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No, he didn't. There were no computers then. He did not use ELS's to "predict" events that had taken place. The modern-day invention called "Torah Codes" is a mathematical system based on statistical analysis. And it has been refuted scientifically.
That is not true. Statistical Analysis? Did you watch the video I posted...
That is absolutely not true. It is counting an equal number of letters from a starting point. The letters will then spell out names and places which correspond to historical events. It is not statistical analysis. It looking for patterns which are spelled out in the Torah, nothing more, nothing mystical or mathematical. The sages have done it, the Rabbis of the Talmud have done it, and the medieval sages have employed this technique. I have read Baal Haturim and he is very cognizant of the number of times words appear, and the way they are spelled, and the spelling of words equal distant.
I don't know where you learned what you are saying, but there are certainly codes in the Torah. This is also learned, as I posted above, from Purim where we learn a lot of codes.
Of course you can disregard this, yet I don't know how you can believe that everything is in the Torah, which is a very important part of complete emmunah. This statement is is Pirkie Avot, amongst other sages who have stated this.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/680290/jewish/Chapter-Five.htm
See 5:21
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That is not true. Statistical Analysis? Did you watch the video I posted...
No, I did not watch your video. I already know something about this subject. They DO use statistical analyses to confirm their selection of a given code and to assert that it is valid. Furthermore, they DO use computers to search for them initially.
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This article has a good discussion of the questions about mathematical probability of these sequences...
http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/28299/
JA: What would have made Torah Codes seem important?
Gans: “Important” is a subjective term. If I say to you, I was just walking down the street and I saw a man with a green tie, you would probably accept my claim. If a claim is plausible, you’re likely to believe it with very little evidence. Yet how important is this information?
Most people would agree that if flying saucers exist, it would be important to know about them. Their existence could impact our lives. But it is a very unusual claim. So most people, including myself, not only do not believe in the claim but would also not bother investigating it. They would consider it a waste of their time and resources.
The Torah Codes claim is important because the authorship of the Torah has been debated for centuries. Bible critics have persisted in asking whether the Torah was written by human beings, and if so, by one person or multiple persons. If the Codes exist, they basically answer that question.
One pattern [in the Seminar book] was mathematically interesting. It is referred to as the Aharon Code, and it appears in the first Torah reading of Vayikra. The Torah text concerns the sacrifices made in the Temple by the Kohanim, the sons of Aharon. The code consists simply of the word “Aharon,” which appears as an ELS in this section 25 times.
JA: How can you be sure that this isn’t coincidental?
Gans: There’s no such thing as being absolutely sure that a phenomenon is not coincidental. But we can speak of probabilities.
I don’t remember the exact fraction, but the claim in the Discovery book was that mathematicians had calculated a random expectation of around 8 ELSs in that paragraph. This is considerably fewer than 25.
So the first thing I did was check the calculations myself. I got the same number. I then calculated the probability of observing 25 such ELSs when around 8 were expected by chance. The probability was significantly small: less than 1 in 500,000.
It was at that moment—sitting there with my calculator in hand—that I thought,
“Hmm.” For the first time, I thought that maybe Torah Codes couldn’t be dismissed so quickly.
JA: How did you go about researching it further?
Gans: Somebody put me in touch with Rabbi Ezriel Tauber, a Torah lecturer, who invited me to attend an Arachim Seminar where the codes were going to be presented. I decided to go, and to ask Dr. Andrew Goldfinger, a close friend of mine and a senior physicist at the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, to come along. I thought that between the two of us, we would be able to catch any mathematical flaws.
So there we were, the two skeptics at the Seminar. They would show the class one pattern after another and my friend and I would just sit there looking over at each other with blank expressions. None of the examples was demonstrably a priori.
I felt uncomfortable—it couldn’t have been easy to have us there, neither for the teachers nor for our fellow seminar participants. I remember one of the codes they presented—typical of the kind they were presenting that day—consisted of the Hebrew word for “diabetes” in close proximity to the word “insulin.” The people in the class seemed very impressed by this, and the instructor was eager to hear our response. My friend and I didn’t want to be rude. We would just look at each other and think, “Oh, no.”
There was, however, one presentation which caught our attention. This was a complicated scientific experiment, designed and executed by Dr. Rips and Doron Witztum, which later became known as the Great Rabbis Experiment.
They had found that the names of great rabbis in Jewish history were encoded in close proximity to the encoding of their dates of birth and death. The Great Rabbis Experiment is relatively complex. It appeals to the scientist, not the layman.
JA: If I, as a layman, can intuit correctly whether three coins on the street have fallen on top of each other by coincidence, without doing complex mathematical calculations, what would be wrong about my going by intuition here, too?
Gans: Any text will produce a certain number of meaningful-looking patterns and word associations, even the back of a cereal box. Your subjective judgment may lead you to imagine relationships between words and to perceive meanings, where none may exist.
The computer enables us to look through millions of configurations in search of interesting or unexpected patterns. A mathematician can then calculate the likelihood that these patterns happened by chance, while a non-mathematician would be at a loss to evaluate them correctly.
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You are conflating multiple viewpoints in your attempt to defend the "Torah Codes" and in doing so you are arguing against a straw man in some cases (as is often the case when you argue with me - or with "me," actually - so it seems. I think this happens often because you are reacting viscerally in a global sense to what I say rather than considering PRECISELY what thing I have actually said and limiting it only to what I said and not 10 other things I did not say. I guess because you are defensive or emotional about the way you believe certain things, and this causes you to overreact to what you perceive as a challenge to these beliefs, you then ascribe to me beliefs that are not mine. It does get annoying. But I digress).
I do not disagree that certain textual methods can uncover sod level understandings of the parsha. Similarly, I do not disagree that certain ideas and profound wisdom are sometimes only hinted at by the Torah, which requires a deep investigative method by our greatest scholars to uncover. But I DO DISAGREE when you claim that the Torah predicts every single world event and contains every form of human knowledge. A simple proof against you is that the Tosfos and other rishonim say that we DO NOT follow the medical advice of the Talmud (not even talking Torah in that case, but Talmud, but the point is still the same - Chazal according to you should have been able to "divine" true medical knowledge and advice from the Torah text if it was really contained in there. But Torah is not a medical textbook, it does not contain that info, and therefore, when medicine advanced to a level higher than that known in the world chazal lived in, the Rabbinic scholars we rely on rightly advised that we should discard any outdated medical advice from a previous era even if it was recorded by chazal in our holy Talmud). Please think deeply about what I've said here.
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This article has a good discussion of the questions about mathematical probability of these sequences...
http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/28299/
I thought you just argued that they don't use statistical analyses?
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And again I will stress that uncovering a deep wisdom by hints in the text and connections with other parts of the text, etc, is NOT THE SAME as taking a jumble of letters and spaces and uncovering AN EVENT IN THE CALENDAR that has already happened and is supposedly a "prediction" of said event in a completely unrelated set of verses and words etc. It's just not the same thing. But do not say I disagree with both possibilities! I only disagree with the LATTER.
By all means, use the Baal Haturim to strengthen your emunah. I like those kind of analyses as well, and I also find that work to be a great thing for kiruv and getting Jews to follow in the Torah.
But "Torah codes" on the other hand have been disproved and function on a mistaken principle. Baal Haturim's principle was correct - the Torah , within the text itself and within its own knowledge and wisdom that it is imparting - is consistent and unified, including in secret ways that we can find only through deep investigation. But the "Torah Codes" operates on a principle that EVERY SINGLE THING KNOWN TO MAN AND EVER TO HAPPEN IN THE WORLD will be found somewhere in Torah. That is taking external notions and events which the Torah does not mention, and trying to say that secretly you can find them there anyway. That's simply not true, or else cancer would be cured by now.
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I thought you just argued that they don't use statistical analyses?
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I misunderstood what you where saying. The computer searches for word sequences not based on statistical analysis, but the analysis is done in order to determine the probability that this sequence would occur, those which are less probable occurances indicate more that the code is correct than those which are statistically probable.
But I don't have a problem with that method.
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Another thing you have not heard me say, but I have said all along, is that Torah codes are not intended to predict that events will happen. Every site which I have read always says that these codes are used to look for clues in events which have already happened... So the issue to me has nothing to do with predicting the future events.
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KWRBT,
Simply stated there is reason in Jewish belief to believe that everything, even minute details, are somehow found in the Torah... We can disagree on the way that this can be interpreted.
Answer me this: Why did the sages who commented on Purim look for Haman in the Torah? Is it not because of the principle that everything is in the Torah. There are other examples of this concept from the Talmud also.
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I misunderstood what you where saying.
Or perhaps you argued without first verifying whether what I was saying was correct, but then afterwards you found out that it was correct? But if you don't know whether something I said is true, how can you argue with it in that case without first finding out for yourself for sure if it's true or not? This may be what is leading to many of our disagreements?
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Or perhaps you argued without first verifying whether what I was saying was correct, but then afterwards you found out that it was correct? But if you don't know whether something I said is true, how can you argue with it in that case without first finding out for yourself for sure if it's true or not? This may be what is leading to many of our disagreements?
I totally understand what you are saying. I have no problem that some people do not have any belief in this. I too was skeptical for a long time, but I found myself seeing that there may be something to it. If everything is to be found in the Torah and this method is used to reveal hidden truths, then there may be something to it.
But to summarize this doomsday prophecy... I don't put any belief in it. I have not heard any Rabbis mention it. And as usually I don't believe we can use Torah codes to predict things. One very central belief of Jews is that through Teshuva we can change the decree. Thus anything supposedly 'pre-destined' just may not occur..
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KWRBT,
Simply stated there is reason in Jewish belief to believe that everything, even minute details, are somehow found in the Torah... We can disagree on the way that this can be interpreted.
But I do not agree with that. I think you are mistaken.
Answer me this: Why did the sages who commented on Purim look for Haman in the Torah?
The explanation is complicated but it has to do with the politics of accepting the megillat Esther into the Tanakh! There was disagreement in the Sanhedrin over whether it could be canonized like other books were already at that point. The Talmud reports this. And finding a pasuk to give an indication of this tremendous event in Jewish history was required by some of the sages as a prerequisite for including the book into the Tanakh. There is more to it, but those are some of the basics and that's a simple understanding of the discussion there, and as you can see, that is quite different from how you interpreted the fact that they were looking for a pasuk that refers to haman.
Rabbi Bar Hayim expands on this discussion to relate to current day phenomenon of rabbinical paralysis and how a similar sentiment against change of any kind was sort of underlying the argument that took place in the Sanhedrin over Megillat Esther.
Btw, from what I remember it was not about finding haman in the Torah, but really they were "trying to find" a pasuk that had enough numbers of allusions to wiping out amalek so as to include reference to the purim story (another manifestation of amalek later in history).
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But I do not agree with that. I think you are mistaken.
The explanation is complicated but it has to do with the politics of accepting the megillat Esther into the Tanakh! There was disagreement in the Sanhedrin over whether it could be canonized like other books were already at that point. The Talmud reports this. And finding a pasuk to give an indication of this tremendous event in Jewish history was required by some of the sages as a prerequisite for including the book into the Tanakh. There is more to it, but those are some of the basics and that's a simple understanding of the discussion there, and as you can see, that is quite different from how you interpreted the fact that they were looking for a pasuk that refers to haman.
Rabbi Bar Hayim expands on this discussion to relate to current day phenomenon of rabbinical paralysis and how a similar sentiment against change of any kind was sort of underlying the argument that took place in the Sanhedrin over Megillat Esther.
Btw, from what I remember it was not about finding haman in the Torah, but really they were "trying to find" a pasuk that had enough numbers of allusions to wiping out amalek so as to include reference to the purim story (another manifestation of amalek later in history).
Actually, it's kind of funny because this whole example refutes what you were claiming. At one point, one side of the argument (probably the majority of sages, who were against canonizing Esther in the beginning) were prepared to accept that the Purim story had NO SOURCE in Torah, and on the basis of this they would exclude it from canonization. It seems also that the minority opinion among the sages of the Great Assembly wanted to canonize it as Esther had instructed, without a verse to support it. Then, in the end, as the simple reading of this event goes, they found a verse to support it (or a reading of a verse), and then on that basis finally allowed it to be canonized (not sure if this was a later generation, if sentiment had changed, etc. but that's the basic idea). So not only was it the case that the sages doubted some minor event had a source or hint to it in Torah, they actually doubted that an event as immense and important in Jewish history as the Purim story was even alluded to in the Torah. Only after they "found a way" to allude to this event in the text did they concede that it could be canonized. If what you - and the "Torah Codes" - are claiming is true, that every single event in history (even little things with little or no relevance to Jewish history) should be found in Torah, then there never should have been any opposition whatsoever to canonizing Esther because of course it's alluded to like everything else. Yet, we have this sugiya in the Talmud where that was not the case.
So not only do I disagree with your premise, but so did all the Men of the Great Assembly. I feel I'm in good company.
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You do not answer the question. There is a principle, as stated in Pirkie Avot, that the Torah contains hints at everything which happens in creation. This is what the sages are talking about concerning looking for Haman in the Torah. I will not argue with you as you seem to have a problem with this. But I continue to assert that there is good reason to believe that the Torah contains everything in creation.
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Chabad has this about Torah Codes:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/228,2094173/What-should-I-think-of-the-Bible-Codes.html#articlepage
What should I think of the "Bible Codes"?
by Rabbi Eli Wolf
Bible codes are quite a fascinating discovery, in which various historical episodes, facts and personalities can be found hidden within the very letters of the Bible. The primary method, by which, purportedly, meaningful messages have been extracted, is via a method known as ELS (equidistant letter sequences) – or simply put: one chooses a starting point and a skip number. Then, beginning at the starting point, one selects letters from the text at equal spacing as given by the skip number, and the result will be the Bible code.
Of the many codes found, some of the most famous include the assassination of former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin; the holocaust; the Gulf War; the existence of certain diseases such as AIDS and George W Bush being elected to presidency in 2004.
This breakthrough is becoming so widespread, that special software is being designed to ease the difficulty involved in extracting these complex codes.
So, for a Jew in today’s world, what is an appropriate reaction to this new finding? Is this perhaps a genuine example of scientific evidence endorsing the truths of our faith?
The concept of extracting pieces of information from the letters of the Bible has its origins within the writings of several great Rabbis in Jewish history. The Zohar states1 that G-d used Torah as a blueprint to create the world. Nachmanides was of the opinion that every name, as well as every event to occur throughout history, can be found within the letters of the Torah Portion, Haazinu.2 The twelfth century Talmudist and Kabbalist, Rabbi Eliezer Rokeach, enumerated3 73 methods of understanding and interpreting the letters of the Torah. Amongst them is “the method of skipping”.4 The Vilna Gaon often encouraged his followers by finding their names hidden within letters of the Torah.
G-d used Torah as a blueprint to create the world
Similarly, the concept of Gematriah has been used in many classical texts and commentaries throughout the ages.5
To appreciate the issue of Bible codes, there are three points that need consideration:
1. The art of deciphering and extracting codes from the Bible wasn’t given to anyone who desired it. Great skills, wisdom and holiness are required when interpreting the words of the Bible. Many authorities spoke unkindly6 of those whom made their own discovery in the Bible and then formed their own explanations based upon it. The Sages of the Talmud, who made various extrapolations from the Bible text, were exceptionally holy men of enormous insight and humility. They possessed a “mesoret” – (tradition from Sinai), handed down through the generations, which guided their studies.
So, whilst it is an intrinsic Jewish belief that the Torah alludes to everything in our world, only people of great stature are capable of deciphering the codes.
2. We need to understand how much truth lies within the messages of the codes.
The story is told of a man who asked a renowned Chassidic Rebbe where his name could be found in the Torah. The man was delighted to find out that the very words which hinted to his name were words of praise and good fortune. Upon seeing the glee in the man’s eyes, the Rebbe warned him: “It is possible to have a name alluded to in a context regarding success and good luck. However, you must practice great caution not to become too secure in your future successes, lest you become sluggish in your service to G-d. Since all of life is based upon man’s choices, if need be (G-d forbid), another appearance of your name could be found in a context of bad luck and adversity.
In other words, no extrapolated message can serve as a guaranteed prediction. G-d always reserves the right to act as He wishes, normally befitting the demeanor of each person.
3. When speaking about proving one’s beliefs, it is crucial to bear in mind the vital difference between an essential proof, and suggestive evidence.
Imagine a father who discovers the whereabouts of his long-lost child, in an orphanage in some distant town. What would be required of the father in order to prove to the child that he is his father? Let’s say he produces an old family portrait, and displays how both his and the child’s smiles bear resemblance to each other. Obviously, that wouldn’t be sufficient, since the child could probably find tens of other men with smiles akin to his. Only by producing DNA samples, or perhaps a video of the child’s birth, could the father succeed in persuading the child that he is the true father.
However, when another child who experiences an occasional fleeting doubt about his parents, receives a compliment about his smile being akin to his father’s smile, it makes him more assured, more confident than he already is. It provides his belief in his parents with the extra boost it needs.
Our recognition of the Bible stems from a far greater and deeper source
We can understand from this example a key principle in regards to any of our beliefs. Any proof that serves merely as peripheral and refutable evidence, cannot convince someone into a particular belief, nor can it serve as a foundation for any belief system. In order to acquire a certain belief, one needs to become privy with the very the essence of what he believes in.
So, for a Jew who already believes sincerely in the truth of the Bible, the response to the discovery of Bible codes should be one of fascination. Isn’t it wonderful to see that the very truths that we believe in are being confirmed and demonstrated by so many people outside of our religion!
But in no way does this discovery authenticate our belief. For us, it is like a bonus. If, hypothetically, some great prophet suddenly appears and invalidates the Bible-codes, it will not diminish our belief in even the slightest way. Our recognition of the Bible stems from a far greater and deeper source.
[Ed. note: It should be noted that bible code scholars only find things after they already happened. They don’t make any predictions. Needless to say, it can’t be used to predict anything, and definitely not to change a Torah law. For even an authentic prophet could not change Torah law, much less so a computer or math system].
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You do not answer the question. There is a principle, as stated in Pirkie Avot, that the Torah contains hints at everything which happens in creation. This is what the sages are talking about concerning looking for Haman in the Torah. I will not argue with you as you seem to have a problem with this. But I continue to assert that there is good reason to believe that the Torah contains everything in creation.
LOL so in other words you think all of the sages of the Great Assembly did not know that statement in Pirkei Avot and they all misinterpreted it? Perhaps it is YOU who is misinterpreting it, Muman. Ever consider that?
Personally, I think you have a very liberal/general and incorrect interpretation of the phrase "all is in it," and you also misunderstand entirely what hashkafic statements of this nature all throughout Pirkei Avot actually signify. If we assume your interpretation of that statement for the sake of example (even tho I think it's incorrect), still perhaps the rest of the chachamim did not agree with ben bag bag. And in that case, the fact that Aish's supposed "Torah Codes" were disproven tends to support those with the contrary view.
But really, that statement in Pirkei Avot does not imply to me what you are claiming, and obviously I cited an entire Talmudic sugiya which directly contradicts what you are trying to interpret from it.
And if "all is in it" in the context of what ben bag bag said, REALLY means what you say it means, tell me why the rabbinic scholars have not cured cancer and why it was not rabbinic scholars who invented the atom bomb, and why we don't find modern medicine in the Torah.
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LOL so in other words you think all of the sages of the Great Assembly did not know that statement in Pirkei Avot and they all misinterpreted it? Perhaps it is YOU who is misinterpreting it, Muman. Ever consider that?
Personally, I think you have a very liberal/general and incorrect interpretation of the phrase "all is in it," and you also misunderstand entirely what hashkafic statements of this nature all throughout Pirkei Avot actually signify. If we assume your interpretation of that statement for the sake of example (even tho I think it's incorrect), still perhaps the rest of the chachamim did not agree with ben bag bag. And in that case, the fact that Aish's supposed "Torah Codes" were disproven tends to support those with the contrary view.
But really, that statement in Pirkei Avot does not imply to me what you are claiming, and obviously I cited an entire Talmudic sugiya which directly contradicts what you are trying to interpret from it.
You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I have also brought several sources, which all seem to support the concept that the Torah contains hints at everything in creation. Why you argue about it is odd, but it is your right to argue about anything you want.
But the interpretation of Pirkie Avot is not my own, it has been written about by several Rabbis as one of the sources for learning that everything is in the Torah.
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5763/bo.html
This is what the Midrash says:
When G-d made creation, He looked into the Torah [as an architect does a blueprint]. (Bereishis Rabbah 1:2)
Ben Bag Bag said, "Turn it over, turn it over, for everything is within it [Torah] . . . (Pirkei Avos 5:26)
Thus, EVERYTHING is within it, INCLUDING us, and even those yet to be born. And, if you know how, as the Vilna Gaon did, you can find out exactly where your life is hinted to within the Torah, and what your purpose is on this earth in this lifetime.
That is how the Torah can speak to us in every generation, for its values are eternal and its morals always applicable. Nothing ever really changes in history - only the externals undergo transformations from generation to generation.
Therefore, redemption from Egypt is applicable to every Jew in every generation. After all, redemption of the Jew is not about space and time, but about the relationship between G-d and His people, even down to the level of the individual. This is what G-d Himself intimated when He told Moshe:
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You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but I have also brought several sources, which all seem to support the concept that the Torah contains hints at everything in creation. Why you argue about it is odd, but it is your right to argue about anything you want.
But the interpretation of Pirkie Avot is not my own, it has been written about by several Rabbis as one of the sources for learning that everything is in the Torah.
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5763/bo.html
I don't believe you brought any sources that support you. Quoting from a chabad website or an Aish kiruv seminar is not a source. Quoting from chazal is a source. Quoting from Talmud is a source. These all trump the kiruv efforts of Aish, as well-intentioned as they might be. What Aish, (or whoever claims that all facts and events are somewhere in the Torah), what they present is "pop-Torah." But they cannot really back up such a claim, they just assume it and impose it on the readers that the reader has to assume it too.
I argue because I think you are completely mistaken and presenting something false which can lead other Jews astray when they see it.
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That is how the Torah can speak to us in every generation, for its values are eternal and its morals always applicable. Nothing ever really changes in history - only the externals undergo transformations from generation to generation.
Yes, its values and morals are eternal. But it does not contain modern medical knowledge or every specific event that will ever take place in the world. I think anyone who claims this is misinterpreting the sources and promoting a pop-Torah which really has no basis in reality. But if you look closely, they did not really make that claim even though the idea about the Vilna Gaon could possibly border on it. It's still not saying what you are saying.
Surely a person can look deeply and find relevance to his own life from the Torah. But a person will not be able to look closely and find the Royal Wedding or the NBA finals outcome in the Torah. That is a different kind of "relevance" entirely and misses the whole point of such an exercise.
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Yes, its values and morals are eternal. But it does not contain modern medical knowledge or every specific event that will ever take place in the world. I think anyone who claims this is misinterpreting the sources and promoting a pop-Torah which really has no basis in reality. But if you look closely, they did not really make that claim even though the idea about the Vilna Gaon could possibly border on it. It's still not saying what you are saying.
Surely a person can look deeply and find relevance to his own life from the Torah. But a person will not be able to look closely and find the Royal Wedding or the NBA finals outcome in the Torah. That is a different kind of "relevance" entirely and misses the whole point of such an exercise.
No, I am not promoting 'pop-Torah' in any sense. I am saying that my belief in Hashgacha Pratis is very firm and my emmunah is such that I believe that Hashem has total control over every aspect of creation. While we certainly have free will, this comes through the ability to interpret the signs we are allowed to recognize.
The only reason I mentioned it in this thread was because I believe that the concept of Torah codes allows us to find how Hashem provides us a way to look at current events.
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No, I am not promoting 'pop-Torah' in any sense. I am saying that my belief in Hashgacha Pratis is very firm and my emmunah is such that I believe that Hashem has total control over every aspect of creation. While we certainly have free will, this comes through the ability to interpret the signs we are allowed to recognize.
The only reason I mentioned it in this thread was because I believe that the concept of Torah codes allows us to find how Hashem provides us a way to look at current events.
I'll simply reiterate that hashgaha pratith has NOTHING to do with finding the NBA finals outcome predicted in the Torah. Again, it's the wrong kind of "relevance" to search for and it misses the point of what it means to make Torah relevant to your personal life today.
You can believe what you want, but if you present it here, I will present a contrary view so anyone seeing this will know that they do not have to necessarily think the way you do about the subject in order to be a religious Jew. For me this is very important because 1. I strongly disagree with what you're saying in the name of Torah. and 2. You often self-assuredly say things as if there is no other view possible to be a religious Jew, and this is not the case, and for people to know that in itself (that there are multiple views) is important.
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I'll simply reiterate that hashgaha pratith has NOTHING to do with finding the NBA finals outcome predicted in the Torah. Again, it's the wrong kind of "relevance" to search for and it misses the point of what it means to make Torah relevant to your personal life today.
You can believe what you want, but if you present it here, I will present a contrary view so anyone seeing this will know that they do not have to necessarily think the way you do about the subject in order to be a religious Jew. For me this is very important because 1. I strongly disagree with what you're saying in the name of Torah. and 2. You often self-assuredly say things as if there is no other view possible to be a religious Jew, and this is not the case, and for people to know that in itself (that there are multiple views) is important.
Do people use Torah Codes to find NBA final outcomes? Really? Is that what you are worried about? I don't know anyone that does that kind of stuff. And no, I don't speak for every Jew, but what I do say is not off the top of my head. I have several good references which support this concept. I learn through listening to Rabbis and I have heard this concept of skipping letters is a method used by the Kabbalists and the Chassidic Jews. Maybe this is not what you believe but it is not just made up and there are many, Chabad and Breslov amongst them, that do learn some of the mystical secrets which are touched upon by the Torah Codes.
Again we must be able to disagree. If you feel you are doing a service by stating these things then so be it... It is up to the reader to learn the truth...
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By the way, I still don't know what exactly I said which you disagree with.
1) That Hashem has absolute control over every aspect of reality.
2) That the Torah contains secrets which reveal all aspects of creation.
Or something else? I suspect you have a reaction because you think that this is an attempt to tell the future but as I have repeated many times those who support the idea never suggest it can be used to predict the future. So fore-telling the score of the game is not even a possibility.
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Im sorry but I will post one more repost concerning the Vilna Gaons discussion of the concept:
http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives5764/KRH64features.htm
Plan of Creation
In his commentary to Safra Detsni'usa, the Gaon points to a third sphere of knowledge -- besides the revealed Oral Torah and the Kabboloh -- with allusions to which the Written Torah is replete. He writes:
"The principle is that everything that has existed, that exists and that will exist is all contained within the Torah, from "Bereishis" to "le'einei kol Yisroel." Not just the general principles; but even the details of each type and each individual person and everything that befalls them from the day they are born until the end of their lives, all their circumstances, down to the smallest detail.
"And of every type of animal, wild animal and living creature in the world, and every grass, growing thing and inanimate material, in the greatest detail of every species and type . . . for all time and what happens to them and their roots.
"And everything that is written about the Ovos, Moshe and Yisroel; they are all in every single generation, for sparks [of their souls] are reincarnated in every generation, as is known. And all their actions, from Odom Horishon to the end of the Torah, are in every generation, as those who possess understanding know. And so it is with each and every individual, as the Medrash Hane'elam begins explaining by allusion.
"All of this is contained in parshas Bereishis until parshas Noach. It is contained in the first parsha, until "boro . . . la'asos," and the fundamental principle underlying all others is contained in the first posuk, whose seven words correspond to the [world's] seven thousand years" (Commentary to SD, perek 5, beginning "vehaclal," pg. 55).
In Toldos Yitzchok [vol. I:2, pg. 20b.] Rav Yitzchok Cahana writes, "No explanation of the approach mentioned above has yet been heard of or has appeared in any sefer. Perhaps its meaning was only conveyed orally. At the time of the Final Redemption . . . the secret of its inner meaning will be apparent, thereby allowing comprehension of the entire creation and all it contains, in general and in detail."
Elsewhere however, the Gaon does shed a little extra light on this idea. He writes, "In speaking about the Creation, the posuk says, `Bereishis boro E-lokim.' The first six days were the general representation of all of the [world's] six thousand years. Thus, anyone who thoroughly understands the events of each day in the account of Creation, will know what will happen at each moment of the years" (Likutei HaGra, from a manuscript, Yeshayohu 2:2).
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Do people use Torah Codes to find NBA final outcomes? Really? Is that what you are worried about?
No, but do you really think that's what I meant? It's called saying something tongue in cheek, muman.
The point is the same. You are claiming that every single event that will ever take place in history is somewhere hidden in the Torah codes. You claimed that. That would obviously include the nba finals just as much as it would include the death of bin laden (if that premise were true, that is). I'm not worried about anyone doing anything, but I am expressing that the premise itself misses the point of what the Torah is or how to relate to it. It's not a magic book.
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By the way, I still don't know what exactly I said which you disagree with.
1) That Hashem has absolute control over every aspect of reality.
2) That the Torah contains secrets which reveal all aspects of creation.
Or something else? I suspect you have a reaction because you think that this is an attempt to tell the future but as I have repeated many times those who support the idea never suggest it can be used to predict the future. So fore-telling the score of the game is not even a possibility.
No, my disagreement is not about telling the future. I was pretty clear about what I disagree with that you are saying. And all along I have said the word "predicted" in quotation marks because obviously people are using these "codes" to cite events which already took place and that cannot be called predicting.
Please read my post again where I discuss that Talmudic sugiya relating to finding a source for the Purim story in Torah verses. It is all in it. (Did you catch my joke?) In any case, it really is in those two posts where I mention that Talmudic sugiya, what I am disagreeing with you about. You are claiming that all historical events and every form of knowledge or fact is in the Torah somewhere. I am claiming that is false, and I brought real evidence to support me from chazal, rishonim, and the Talmud - not to mention common sense logic which you cannot refute (why haven't Torah scholars cured cancer or produced modern medicine? They weren't intended to do that from Torah verses, but could do that if they studied medicine as their profession). Not only can you not refute it, but you have consistently refused to address it.
Also please consider rereading the post that I put in all bold. I was trying to emphasize that. That was why I used bold. It seems I state pretty clearly in there what I disagree with.
And lastly, even though I said the NBA finals thing tongue-in-cheek, I actually was referring to the outcome being found in there after-the-fact like all the other codes are after-the-fact. So why wouldn't it be in there according to you? After the finals are over this year why can't we use the codes to find the outcome hinted to for 2011, based on your own logic?
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Indeed I never implied Torah was a magic book. That is an incorrect understanding. But there are various statements such as 'Torah is the blueprint for creation', and others which lead us to believe that there are secrets in the Torah which are beyond the simple understanding. The methods of gematria and letter skipping are an aide to help understand some of these concepts.
But I don't intend to argue with you. I am sorry if you think that what I am saying will be misunderstood. That can be a very problematic aveirah.