JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: edu on June 24, 2012, 01:16:08 AM
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Moshe Feiglin, the so-called leader of the Jewish leadership faction in the likud
writes in an article http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/articleA7213.html (http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/articleA7213.html) condemning a photo of homosexual soldiers on the IDF official website because this is actively promoting anti-family values, nevertheless adds in his article, "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people".
In his view, like some USA politicians, he might be aiming for some type of public legistlation that discourages public homosexuality, but remains neutral to what people do privately.
In my opinion, if Moshe Feiglin can't say straight out that people who engage in homosexulality are not good people, because the Torah says it is an abomination and provides a very harsh penalty for such behavior, (see Vayikra/Leviticus 18:22,and 20:13), he does not have the moral standing to represent "Jewish leadership" nor will he have the moral backbone to really fight to obtain the results that the Torah demands on this issue.
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While I do not defend the practice of homosexuality I will say that there are some who have this test and are able to overcome their desires. The society today is very confused and sometimes those who get caught up in this perversion are really innocent at their heart. I will not as a practice condemn all homosexuals to eternal hell. I will seek to look for the good in them.
I do support the Torah law that if they are doing the actual act which is prohibited, have had witnesses to this fact, and they are warned against it, yet they continue to violate the law, they should be punished. But I don't condemn Moshe Fieglen for saying that they are not good people. If they are able to understand that their desire is not permitted and can overcome their temptation then they are good people, just people who are greatly tested. They most likely will not procreate and this is a problem, but they do have merit for being able to overcome such a difficult life test. Indeed the world today encourages this degenerate behavior and I agree that public displays of this perversion should be prevented.
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Moshe Feiglin, the so-called leader of the Jewish leadership faction in the likud
writes in an article http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/articleA7213.html (http://www.jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/articles/72/articleA7213.html) condemning a photo of homosexual soldiers on the IDF official website because this is actively promoting anti-family values, nevertheless adds in his article, "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people".
In his view, like some USA politicians, he might be aiming for some type of public legistlation that discourages public homosexuality, but remains neutral to what people do privately.
In my opinion, if Moshe Feiglin can't say straight out that people who engage in homosexulality are not good people, because the Torah says it is an abomination and provides a very harsh penalty for such behavior, (see Vayikra/Leviticus 18:22,and 20:13), he does not have the moral standing to represent "Jewish leadership" nor will he have the moral backbone to really fight to obtain the results that the Torah demands on this issue.
I think you misunderstand him. He is saying he wants to help those who have this kind of urge, not condemn them. He believes they can be helped by ceasing any activities that violate Leviticus. Chaim has stated the same position in his videos, hasn't he? Hasn't Chaim said to the gays in his videos to get help and stop their sinning and return to the Jewish people because we love them and want best for them?
Feiglin condemns promotion of gayness, and you condemn him for it.... I'm very confused here.
Feiglin has good values especially regarding the Jewish family. He is twisted in the fact that he is still sticking to Likud. I guess it's like a captain going down with his ship, he wants to see Manhigut Yehudit through to the painful end.
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Kol hakavod, muman. Well said
While I do not defend the practice of homosexuality I will say that there are some who have this test and are able to overcome their desires. The society today is very confused and sometimes those who get caught up in this perversion are really innocent at their heart. I will not as a practice condemn all homosexuals to eternal hell. I will seek to look for the good in them.
I do support the Torah law that if they are doing the actual act which is prohibited, have had witnesses to this fact, and they are warned against it, yet they continue to violate the law, they should be punished. But I don't condemn Moshe Fieglen for saying that they are not good people. If they are able to understand that their desire is not permitted and can overcome their temptation then they are good people, just people who are greatly tested. They most likely will not procreate and this is a problem, but they do have merit for being able to overcome such a difficult life test. Indeed the world today encourages this degenerate behavior and I agree that public displays of this perversion should be prevented.
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I agree with his article. It is good he thinks what people do in their private life inside their own house is their own business.
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I think some of you who responded are making a mistake. While it is true that we are interested in helping sinners, repent and we might have some understanding about what factors brought them to sin, we clearly have to say that those who are doing extremely evil deeds are not "good people". Otherwise our opposition to their actions becomes meaningless.
To put in other words, if you say they are good people, that means their actions must not be that bad. And if their actions are not bad, then you really don't have a right to oppose them.
By clearly stating they are not good people, you avoid this "slippery slope".
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For those who care about how the Talmud views this issue, I believe I have a proof for my viewpoint, from tractate Pesachim 113b.
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I find that to be dangerous rhetoric with no clear meaning. Sure a homosexual can volunteer, sing in retirement homes, and smile alot, but as someone who lies is a liar, and therefore imperfect, a homosexual is exactly that. Nothing short of right is right and what's not right is wrong. If they are a homosexual, they do a bad thing, and even if the only engage in a few homosexual acts, those are a few bad things, and so even if they are only a bit bad as people, they are still bad people if you consider homosexuality to be bad, which G-d does.
Moshe, I do. And if you do not believe that it would be OK if everyone was homosexual, then you should believe as well that these are not good people, though they, and even the worst of people, are capable of doing and occasionally do good things.
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For those who care about how the Talmud views this issue, I believe I have a proof for my viewpoint, from tractate Pesachim 113b.
...can you post that here, or link me to an online Talmud, please?
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I think some of you who responded are making a mistake. While it is true that we are interested in helping sinners, repent and we might have some understanding about what factors brought them to sin, we clearly have to say that those who are doing extremely evil deeds are not "good people". Otherwise our opposition to their actions becomes meaningless.
But this is not how we respond to those who do not observe sabbath.
He is not saying their actions are not bad.
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Kahanewasright good point. Basically let me break it down to you right here. For Jews their are 36 sins with an issur of "Karet". (First page)
http://halakhah.com/pdf/kodoshim/Krithoth.pdf
One of them is against homosexuality. (for Non-Jews- those who are Bnai Noah this prohibition also falls under the category of sexual perversion). Another one of them is being Mihallel Shabbat. Yett another one is sleeping with a Nidda (a women ritually unclean and who has not gone to the Mikwah, yes including one's own wife). Soo for those who fight this, and you should, please make sure you yourselves do not commit one of the other sins of this magnitude as well.
On the other hand what makes this even more worse is when not only they do not make repentance for these evil actions and have regrets and shame (as is also written that shame can take away one's sins) but now the culture brag's about it. They want to make "gay parade's" which is not only making the sins, but even boosting about it. In that case it goes from private to public. You do not find anywhere (except with the exception of Arabs glorifying murder) the boosting and "pride" of making sins.
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I think some of you who responded are making a mistake. While it is true that we are interested in helping sinners, repent and we might have some understanding about what factors brought them to sin, we clearly have to say that those who are doing extremely evil deeds are not "good people". Otherwise our opposition to their actions becomes meaningless.
To put in other words, if you say they are good people, that means their actions must not be that bad. And if their actions are not bad, then you really don't have a right to oppose them.
By clearly stating they are not good people, you avoid this "slippery slope".
Everyone sins. Therefore there are no good people. Is that logical?
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I think that it's wrong to say that homosexuals are good people because they are defined as a group by doing sinful, evil actions. It's evil to say "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people" because by definition, an active homosexual is doing something evil and therefore as a homosexual he or she is not a good person.
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Everyone sins. Therefore there are no good people. Is that logical?
Bingo. I know well what the many evils I've done are and why they make me a bad person. Some I'm still working out. I see them as a sickness, a plague that I birthed, spread and consumed. I hate them, and I changed out of many of these devilish ways. I still see more, fight them, and look for more ways that my being and actions can conform to the perfection that I see and know I want contained in the Torah. I have no problem admitting my sin, and telling others what it does to the perfect person G-d created that should be me.
If you said I was a good person even though I did the things I have, how would I have any incentive to change? A good person need only to keep doing exactly what he's doing to advance and do better things. It is true that I do some good things and try to be as good as possible, but it doesn't always work out. I know what people that continue to do some of the things I've done are like, and don't want to be like them, but I know what they are, so I try to change.
For all that I'm not cruel. I don't do evil maliciously so that it affects others. Muslims raping girls to further Jihad and let their country-women understand the need for dress code is cruel. So is promoting perverted sexuality and demand others accept, respect and pay for it (or reduce their need to pay taxes because they do it). Not all homosexuals are cruel, but if we do not call their sinful spade a spade, we invite them to be.
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Kahane-Was_Right-Bt stated:
But this is not how we respond to those who do not observe sabbath.
There is a difference.
Ignorance and bad upbringing are excuses that are sometimes accepted by halacha to lessen the severity of sabbath violation.
For Homosexuality, which is on the level of the prohibition of murder in halacha, even Gentiles are prohibited to do it and Rambam in Mishna Torah does not allow them the excuse "that I was ignorant of the law".
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reply to Dr Dan who said
Everyone sins. Therefore there are no good people. Is that logical?
Not every sin is on the same level. Good people usually do good or neutral deeds and only occasionally slip up with a sin and even then they usually show remorse afterwards and there are certain red lines that they will never cross, even if they do sin.
Male Homosexuality is such a red line.
Halacha states, that if a person has to violate the sabbath to save his life, he must violate the sabbath. However, if he is told to commit what halacha views as murder, or if he is told to commit male homosexuality to save his life, he must in both of the last 2 cases, give up his life, rather than commit the sin.
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I think that there is a difference between the sin and the sinner. In this case there can be people who claim to have a sexual attraction to the same sex. If this attraction is allowed to affect a persons behavior and it leads to the prohibited act then it is a sin. But the attraction alone is not the sin, it is the act.
It is possible that people who have this attraction are 'good people' since they recognize their problem and can control themselves and not sin. This is what I think it means that all those who identify as homosexual are not 'bad people'.
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I think that there is a difference between the sin and the sinner. In this case there can be people who claim to have a sexual attraction to the same sex. If this attraction is allowed to affect a persons behavior and it leads to the prohibited act then it is a sin. But the attraction alone is not the sin, it is the act.
It is possible that people who have this attraction are 'good people' since they recognize their problem and can control themselves and not sin. This is what I think it means that all those who identify as homosexual are not 'bad people'.
I can agree with this much but there is a trap in here in that you have to make sure that you don't begin to go soft on people who are active homosexuals. They are actively destroying not just their own lives but also bringing God's judgment on the society in which they happen to live.
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I think that there is a difference between the sin and the sinner.
Correct you are, in certain examples. A crackhead is so consumed in his sin, his life and being are associated with it, and he will love others that share in it and defend it. Same with homos. This is why it is such a grievous sin, because it dehumanizes him, becomes his identity, and radicalizes him to make other like this, for what he believes to be his benefit.
Even a thief, do it and every time you walk into a store you think about it and feel an urge, though the aforementioned effects are not as strong if you just do it once. Lie, and sometimes you'll start doing it without even thinking, like the truth doesn't matter to you anymore. Have you ever seen a murder, who did so in cold blood's eyes? The don't have the same connection to other people as they had before, a step, as the rest of these, to moral insanity.
Do these things and many more and you are a bad person. I believe that it can be changed and perfection achieved, and regardless of what others say has complete improbability, it helps to try. But others must condemn it so you can, saying that they are bad people makes it easy for them to be good.
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I think that it's wrong to say that homosexuals are good people because they are defined as a group by doing sinful, evil actions. It's evil to say "nobody says that homosexuals are not good people" because by definition, an active homosexual is doing something evil and therefore as a homosexual he or she is not a good person.
But I think that feiglin is defining "homosexual" by the desire not by the actions of the individual person. After all, that is what the term means - a same gender desire.
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But I think that feiglin is defining "homosexual" by the desire not by the actions of the individual person. After all, that is what the term means - a same gender desire.
The thing is having a mental disorder still doesn't make someone good or bad. It just is an affliction. It's like saying "Nobody can say that people with influenza are not good people". It doesn't make a lot of sense in that context either.
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This post is a little bit funny to me...
reply to Dr Dan who saidNot every sin is on the same level. Good people usually do good or neutral deeds and only occasionally slip up with a sin and even then they usually show remorse afterwards and there are certain red lines that they will never cross, even if they do sin.
Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person? I say yes. I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no. But what do you say? Usually shabbat violators do not show remorse of any kind. Many don't even think its wrong or problematic. Do you think of them as "evil" ?
Male Homosexuality is such a red line.
Halacha states, that if a person has to violate the sabbath to save his life, he must violate the sabbath. However, if he is told to commit what halacha views as murder, or if he is told to commit male homosexuality to save his life, he must in both of the last 2 cases, give up his life, rather than commit the sin.
There are many MANY people out there who are worshipping idols according to basic definitions of halacha. I don't believe all those people are evil. Most of them don't even realize what they are doing, or they are just used to it or have desire for it, and are definitely not intending to affront to God in following whatever nonJewish religion they are doing. (Idol worship is the second of 3 types of sins that fall into the category where you cannot do it to save your life if faced with a choice between certain death and compelled sin, as you mentioned regarding homosexual relations which fall into the forbidden relations category). I think they are in a similar situation to any gay who slips up or even who does his sin due to his desires which overcame him but not maliciously.
I think you arbitrarily draw red lines.
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This post is a little bit funny to me...
Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person? I say yes. I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no. But what do you say? Usually shabbat violators do not show remorse of any kind. Many don't even think its wrong or problematic. Do you think of them as "evil" ?
There are many MANY people out there who are worshipping idols according to basic definitions of halacha. I don't believe all those people are evil. Most of them don't even realize what they are doing, or they are just used to it or have desire for it, and are definitely not intending to affront to G-d in following whatever nonJewish religion they are doing. (Idol worship is the second of 3 types of sins that fall into the category where you cannot do it to save your life if faced with a choice between certain death and compelled sin, as you mentioned regarding homosexual relations which fall into the forbidden relations category). I think they are in a similar situation to any gay who slips up or even who does his sin due to his desires which overcame him but not maliciously.
I think you arbitrarily draw red lines.
I'm not the one who drew them. Sure, in their hearts they can be the most loving, but if someone who was good and didn't know what they were doing was bad and they stayed with them they'll probably start doing it too. It's like saying a low-effect contagious disease doesn't make a person sick, because people with AIDS are sick.
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I'm not the one who drew them. Sure, in their hearts they can be the most loving, but if someone who was good and didn't know what they were doing was bad and they stayed with them they'll probably start doing it too. It's like saying a low-effect contagious disease doesn't make a person sick, because people with AIDS are sick.
My comment was in response to edu. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
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I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand. Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious. There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.
Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example. Like being a light to others. And not just to Jews, but also gentles. We are representatives of our people.
This post is a little bit funny to me...
Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person? I say yes. I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no. But what do you say? Usually shabbat violators do not show remorse of any kind. Many don't even think its wrong or problematic. Do you think of them as "evil" ?
There are many MANY people out there who are worshipping idols according to basic definitions of halacha. I don't believe all those people are evil. Most of them don't even realize what they are doing, or they are just used to it or have desire for it, and are definitely not intending to affront to G-d in following whatever nonJewish religion they are doing. (Idol worship is the second of 3 types of sins that fall into the category where you cannot do it to save your life if faced with a choice between certain death and compelled sin, as you mentioned regarding homosexual relations which fall into the forbidden relations category). I think they are in a similar situation to any gay who slips up or even who does his sin due to his desires which overcame him but not maliciously.
I think you arbitrarily draw red lines.
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This post is a little bit funny to me...
Can a Jew who violates Shabbat be a good person? I say yes. I haven't met a rabbi yet who says no.
I know of at least 2 who publicly state otherwise. I remeber one of them saying (and this was in shul) about people praising someone who passed away yett did not keep Mitzwoth particularly Shabbat.
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I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand. Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious. There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.
Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example. Like being a light to others. And not just to Jews, but also gentles. We are representatives of our people.
Yes and no. Its true that we personally cannot use force today for example to tie your family members up on Shabbat to make sure they aren't violating it. BUT about using fear is a different story. Not that we want people to be scared etc. but sometimes the knowledge of fear itself is also a big motivator for people. Also a real Jewish government can and did use "fear" and "intimidation" if you will to force G-D's laws upon people. For example check the story with Hezekia the King saying that any ignoramus would in effect be killed. Because of his decree every child knew all the laws etc. (This is also brought down in Rabbi Kahane's book "The Jewish idea" as well).
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Yes and no. Its true that we personally cannot use force today for example to tie your family members up on Shabbat to make sure they aren't violating it. BUT about using fear is a different story. Not that we want people to be scared etc. but sometimes the knowledge of fear itself is also a big motivator for people. Also a real Jewish government can and did use "fear" and "intimidation" if you will to force G-D's laws upon people. For example check the story with Hezekia the King saying that any ignoramus would in effect be killed. Because of his decree every child knew all the laws etc. (This is also brought down in Rabbi Kahane's book "The Jewish idea" as well).
For certain things, I understand there might need a fear tactic. But for a lot of other things, leading by example or encouraging it is better. But I guess it depends on where and what situation and urgency
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I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand. Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious. There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.
Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example. Like being a light to others. And not just to Jews, but also gentles. We are representatives of our people.
So what is your opinion of Lubavitch? Also, do you believe being a light unto others over-rides telling your kids that's it's sinful and gives you no place in the world to come? While I don't suppose anyone intends to go homo hunting so they can do a drive-by condemnation, if someone says "homosexuals" (people that do/ desire this one action) and "good people" (" do things that are good), they are distorting the point to begin with. Good people is meaningless, that part of them is very bad. It doesn't average out in heaven and you go for the high score.
"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
The Jewish way of saying this I think is that your body is a temple, and your actions determine who it is dedicated to. Sure, you're not going to warn everyone that your mother once lied when she was a little girl, but that's the difference between spilling the candles and building a big fire filled idol in comparison. Sure you're a great person no matter what, G-d's really good at making those, but the point is that when you do the things that it says are bad, you become part bad, and then you are not really good, because you're a little bad so if you say that they're good people, it's using this averaging phenomenon to say that them and their ways should still be socially acceptable, which gives it encouragement to spread. If you say it's bad what they do but many certainly have the strength to overcome it that makes sense, or while they weren't being sinful and abominable people in their civil union, these men were being good people at the children's hospital. It was a tragedy when a generous and respected man in the community turned out to be a homosexual, because that and every other thing that Torah says is wrong creates more of that in others. We want the good anyone in the world can do be done, but we want the bad to stop being done, so its nice and pretty and so very tolerant to talk about how gay people are good, but that's done to avoid talking about how they are bad, and because it's done it's harder for them to change and easier for others to become that way.
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So what is your opinion of Lubavitch? Also, do you believe being a light unto others over-rides telling your kids that's it's sinful and gives you no place in the world to come? While I don't suppose anyone intends to go homo hunting so they can do a drive-by condemnation, if someone says "homosexuals" (people that do/ desire this one action) and "good people" (" do things that are good), they are distorting the point to begin with. Good people is meaningless, that part of them is very bad. It doesn't average out in heaven and you go for the high score.
"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
The Jewish way of saying this I think is that your body is a temple, and your actions determine who it is dedicated to. Sure, you're not going to warn everyone that your mother once lied when she was a little girl, but that's the difference between spilling the candles and building a big fire filled idol in comparison. Sure you're a great person no matter what, G-d's really good at making those, but the point is that when you do the things that it says are bad, you become part bad, and then you are not really good, because you're a little bad so if you say that they're good people, it's using this averaging phenomenon to say that them and their ways should still be socially acceptable, which gives it encouragement to spread. If you say it's bad what they do but many certainly have the strength to overcome it that makes sense, or while they weren't being sinful and abominable people in their civil union, these men were being good people at the children's hospital. It was a tragedy when a generous and respected man in the community turned out to be a homosexual, because that and every other thing that Torah says is wrong creates more of that in others. We want the good anyone in the world can do be done, but we want the bad to stop being done, so its nice and pretty and so very tolerant to talk about how gay people are good, but that's done to avoid talking about how they are bad, and because it's done it's harder for them to change and easier for others to become that way.
You realize that Chassidism is greater than Lubavitch {Lubavitch is just one branch of Chassidic Judaism}...
My opinion of Lubavitch is AWESOME!
PS: Saul Kaye has a song on his Jewish Blues Vol II called "Two Wolves"...
http://www.saulkaye.com/go/lyrics?id=686138
Two Wolves
There are two wolves
Inside of me
One Tries to Tempt me
But the other one Believes
There are Two Wolves
Inside of Me
So be careful now
Cuz you never know which one you’ll meet
Meet the good wolf, yetzer ha tov
He’s faithful and obeys
You know he’s always so well behaved
And you can bet your last dollar
That he will never stray
Sometimes I wake up
So hungry
I can’t eat
I can’t sleep
You know the bad wolf
Kept me up all night
Now my eyes are red an glazed
In the morning light
There are two wolves
Inside of me
One Tries to Tempt me
But the other one Believes
There are Two Wolves
Inside of Me
So be careful now
Cuz I’m not benoni
Lately the bad wolf’s
Been on a bend
Scaring my family and friends
You know he feeds
On their needs
And he won’t be satisfied
Until everybody bleeds
There are two wolves
Inside of me
One Tries to Tempt me
But the other one Believes
There are Two Wolves
Inside of Me
So be careful now
Cuz I’m not benoni
What you say is the difference between the Sinner and the Sin. If we have the desire to do right we will surely avoid doing wrong. But we should rebuke all who do wrong, not just those who do sin which are against our own idea of right and wrong. As we point out over and over again, the TORAH spends a great deal of time CONDEMNING those who violate the Shabbat.... There is only TWO mentions in the entire Tanakh about the sin of male-on-male homosexual sex... Both have the same punishment. I think that Hashem is MUCH MORE upset at the Jews who violate Shabbat than they are at the homosexuals.
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Saul Kayes song addresses the Benoni, a person who is in between a tzadik {righteous man} and a Rasha {sinner}...
http://www.meaningfullife.com/currentevents/israel/The_Wilderness_and_the_Torah.php
The question can be further broadened. Why was it necessary for the Jewish people to wander 40 years before entering the Promised Land? Was 210 years of hard labor in Egypt not enough suffering? Why liberate them from Egypt only to put them through another 40 oppressive years?!
One of the most powerful messages that ever touched me is the teaching of the Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, in his Tanya. He explains that the purpose of life on Earth in not for the tzaddik (righteous person), who does not have an evil inclination and therefore does not face the true struggles of life. The purpose of creation is the average man (the ‘benoni’) who faces a constant struggle between good and evil.
Judaism does not tell us that life is easy and that faith is bliss. On the contrary. We were placed in a wilderness and life is a battle. And it is precisely this battle that G-d intended us to face. Therefore, do not be disturbed or demoralized by your challenges, by your inconsistencies and by your weaknesses. Do not be shaken when you do not live up to your highest aspirations, and often do not actualize or maintain your inspiration. Do not be discouraged – because this struggle is the fundamental purpose of all of existence.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361887/jewish/Glossary.htm
http://www.theyeshiva.net/Article/View/5/The-Id-the-Yid-and-the-Super-Ego
In the Tanya, Rabbi Schneur Zalman placed as his ideal human being a new spiritual model whom he called "the Benoni," or "the possible man." The Benoni is a man whose inner character often resembles that of the Rasha, consisting of the good/evil dichotomy that is the original natural state of every human. But the Benoni's behavior is as flawless as the Tzaddik's.
Rabbi Schneur Zalman taught that there is no need, nor is it even a possibility for most people, to have all of their three "arks" turned into pure gold. It is not tragic if our middle "ark" forever remains torn and dichotomized. Yet, notwithstanding this eternal dichotomy, our behavior, our active thoughts, words and deeds, ought always to reflect our innate G-dliness and spirituality. G-d did not desire holy people doing holy things; He desired unhely people doing holy things (5).
benoni (lit., "intermediate man"): classically, an individual whose merits are equally balanced between good and evil; according to *Chassidus, an individual whose spiritual labors have brought him to a level at which he never sins in thought, word or deed, despite his still-active Evil Inclination; see Tanya, ch. 12
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For certain things, I understand there might need a fear tactic. But for a lot of other things, leading by example or encouraging it is better. But I guess it depends on where and what situation and urgency
Your correct. I agree.
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Saul Kayes song addresses the Benoni, a person who is in between a tzadik {righteous man} and a Rasha {sinner}...
http://www.meaningfullife.com/currentevents/israel/The_Wilderness_and_the_Torah.php
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361887/jewish/Glossary.htm
http://www.theyeshiva.net/Article/View/5/The-Id-the-Yid-and-the-Super-Ego
I love this! :clap: :clap: :clap:
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I met a hassid last night and we had a conversation about something that all of us need to understand. Those of us here who are religious Jews are not supposed to prosteltyze or force or use fear to make Jews more religious. There is no mitzva anywhere that states we have to do that.
Rather, those of us who are religious should lead by example. Like being a light to others. And not just to Jews, but also gentles. We are representatives of our people.
This is an old fight the chassidim have with chabad. Its amazing to me that he calls outreach to OTHER jews as prosletyzing. That's over the line. Chassidim, particularly satmar have always been against chabbad's kiruv efforts, and of course they always try to use some flimsy religious justification for their politics.
They say it's "not a mitzvah" ok lot's of things are not a mitzvah you can list out in a list of specific requirements but we still do them. And many things fall under categories of mitzvot. If we're not supposed to do outreach, what were the neviim doing telling Jews to stop idol worship? Why were the levites supposed to teach Torah? For fun? Or was it to get Jews on the same page regarding mitzvah observance and behavior? I believe the anti kiruv "be a shining light example and God will make it all happen for you" approach is a distortion fostered by the exile mentality.
If this chassid really thinks we CANNOT encourage our ways to other Jews, ask why so many chassidim got frazzled over Rav Moshe's milk psak. Let those other Jews drink whatever kosher milk they want and just be a "light" unto them by you drinking cholov yisrael. And so so many other examples like that.
They only really use the argument of not influencing others when they want to combat the work chabad does. But they themselves always try to influence other Jews.
All rabbis try to influence Jews to keep mitzvot!
Please cite eruvin 9a and ask the chassid about the Rashi there which explains how the great tanna/amora "Rav" 'found a valley and enclosed it within a fence' in the Talmud's words, means according to Rashi that the unlearned babylonian Jews took Torah and commandments lightly and w disdain, but Rav fixed this situation.
Rabbi wein writes that Rav chose to settle in Sura and head the yeshiva there precisely because Sura contained many ignorant and at-risk-of-assimilating Jews in order to correct this. (Makkos 24a comment by Rav and iggereth of sherira gaon attest to the low stature of communities in Sura at that time).
When Rav founded yarchei kallah, it was quite obviously for all the farming and working Jews who don't normally study in yeshiva to come and learn torah - to influence and reach out to them.
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And one more thing, there are certain things not required by halacha but a mensch still does it anyway. I don't think I need to elaborate furthe w examples we all know.
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One thing is for sure.... Chabad is very much into kiruv, or outreach, to Jews of all stripes. My good experience with Chabad over more than 10 years allowed me to witness the great good which they do. And don't tell me these Jews don't become zionistic and supportive of the Jewish state. All Chabad Rabbis I know have been to, and encourage all who attend, to go to Israel and to eventually move there.
Indeed the Chabad Rabbi is well known for sending out mitzvah mobiles which would encourage Jews, males would be encouraged to Don Tefillin with a blessing and the women would be encouraged to light Shabbat candles and given a box of candles. It is great to assist in the bringing together Jews in all the four corners of the earth. One of my Chabad Rabbis who has been training here in Northern California for about 4 years is now embarking to Wisconsin, of all places.
I realize there is question whether Jews should live in Chutz L'Aretz... But there is certainly some merit for keeping Jews Jewish wherever they may find themselves. And I know from my experience out in the Jewish Boonies that all Chabad Rabbis I know support the Zionist enterprise.
Example Mitzvah Mobile:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv-zTB-L_IU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7LnMNvA6e0
One more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NZjXNQvu8c
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I love the lubavetchers.
Ones Jewish kids should know right from for a Jew. But they should also understand that non Jew isn't a worse person than him because he's not required to follow kashrut rules. Kids should also know that it is better not to judge others when possible and lead by example of how good it is to do things when it is done right. Maybe even encourage others if he has to. Also talking about Gd has judge and what He can do when He judges is important, but better to phrase it in a third person such as, "Gd is the ultimate judge and will determine if someone did his best to live by mitzvot."
As for homosexuality, we teach our kids that is wrong and not to judge others for it and that Gd is judge and that He judges souls measure for measure.
Now think about this. You're about to get in a heated debate with a homosexual and you approach it like this. I think you are more likely to affect him with truth than if you were to confront him with a pointed finger. Nobody likes it when you point a finger at them and tell them that they are going to everlasting hellfire.
So what is your opinion of Lubavitch? Also, do you believe being a light unto others over-rides telling your kids that's it's sinful and gives you no place in the world to come? While I don't suppose anyone intends to go homo hunting so they can do a drive-by condemnation, : someone says "homosexuals" (people that do/ desire this one action) and "good people" (" do things that are good), they are distorting the point to begin with. Good people is meaningless, that part of them is very bad. It doesn't average out in heaven and you go for the high score.
"One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, "My son, the battle is between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
The Jewish way of saying this I think is that your body is a temple, and your actions determine who it is dedicated to. Sure, you're not going to warn everyone that your mother once lied when she was a little girl, but that's the difference between spilling the candles and building a big fire filled idol in comparison. Sure you're a great person no matter what, G-d's really good at making those, but the point is that when you do the things that it says are bad, you become part bad, and then you are not really good, because you're a little bad so if you say that they're good people, it's using this averaging phenomenon to say that them and their ways should still be socially acceptable, which gives it encouragement to spread. If you say it's bad what they do but many certainly have the strength to overcome it that makes sense, or while they weren't being sinful and abominable people in their civil union, these men were being good people at the children's hospital. It was a tragedy when a generous and respected man in the community turned out to be a homosexual, because that and every other thing that Torah says is wrong creates more of that in others. We want the good anyone in the world can do be done, but we want the bad to stop being done, so its nice and pretty and so very tolerant to talk about how gay people are good, but that's done to avoid talking about how they are bad, and because it's done it's harder for them to change and easier for others to become that way.
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Not quoting from this man, but stands with the lubovitch sect and their outreach. He even feels schneerson and kahane were right.
This is an old fight the chassidim have with chabad. Its amazing to me that he calls outreach to OTHER jews as prosletyzing. That's over the line. Chassidim, particularly satmar have always been against chabbad's kiruv efforts, and of course they always try to use some flimsy religious justification for their politics.
They say it's "not a mitzvah" ok lot's of things are not a mitzvah you can list out in a list of specific requirements but we still do them. And many things fall under categories of mitzvot. If we're not supposed to do outreach, what were the neviim doing telling Jews to stop idol worship? Why were the levites supposed to teach Torah? For fun? Or was it to get Jews on the same page regarding mitzvah observance and behavior? I believe the anti kiruv "be a shining light example and G-d will make it all happen for you" approach is a distortion fostered by the exile mentality.
If this chassid really thinks we CANNOT encourage our ways to other Jews, ask why so many chassidim got frazzled over Rav Moshe's milk psak. Let those other Jews drink whatever kosher milk they want and just be a "light" unto them by you drinking cholov yisrael. And so so many other examples like that.
They only really use the argument of not influencing others when they want to combat the work chabad does. But they themselves always try to influence other Jews.
All rabbis try to influence Jews to keep mitzvot!
Please cite eruvin 9a and ask the chassid about the Rashi there which explains how the great tanna/amora "Rav" 'found a valley and enclosed it within a fence' in the Talmud's words, means according to Rashi that the unlearned babylonian Jews took Torah and commandments lightly and w disdain, but Rav fixed this situation.
Rabbi wein writes that Rav chose to settle in Sura and head the yeshiva there precisely because Sura contained many ignorant and at-risk-of-assimilating Jews in order to correct this. (Makkos 24a comment by Rav and iggereth of sherira gaon attest to the low stature of communities in Sura at that time).
When Rav founded yarchei kallah, it was quite obviously for all the farming and working Jews who don't normally study in yeshiva to come and learn torah - to influence and reach out to them.
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I know of at least 2 who publicly state otherwise. I remeber one of them saying (and this was in shul) about people praising someone who passed away yett did not keep Mitzwoth particularly Shabbat.
That doesn't even make sense. We are supposed to praise the good qualities of loved ones when they die.
No?