JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Yerusha on July 10, 2012, 12:24:31 PM
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"Beware lest you be found fighting against the L-rd!".
The Rambam states that defending the borders of Eretz Yisrael against invasion comes under the category of a Milchemes Mitzva - an Obligatory War - "wherein EVERYONE goes out to battle, even a bridegroom from out of his nuptial chamber....!"
And if ever there was a Milchemes Mitzva today, it is defending the borders of the State of Israel, the G-d-given home of 6 million Jews.
The fact is that those Haredim who don't study Torah full-time, which is most of them, would make disciplined, brave and ruthless soldiers, and the fact that they are being so studiously forbidden by the 'Gedolim' to participate in the mitzvah of Milchemes Mitzvah, and thereby emboldening the deadly surrounding Ishmaelitic foes, makes one wonder if there are forces at work, consciously or unconsciously, to bring down the State of Israel and end the Zionist enterprise, even if it means everyone perishing or a Third Exile: it goes that deep!
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/132849/Porush-Confirms-Million-Man-Rally-in-the-Works-.html
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/132884/Maran-Rav-Kanievsky-on-Chareidi-Conscription.html
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This comment is hilarious:
This is a great idea! I totally think the chareidi tzibur should have a million man rally! Of course, as we all know, we can’t have the chareidi avreichim go to the rally. Why can’t they go, you ask? Well, we all know that the only thing keeping the Jewish people and the country safe is the fact that these avreichim are sitting and learning full time. We wouldn’t want everyone to be destroyed while all the avreichim are out of the basei midrashim at the rally. We certainly wouldn’t want to empty out the basei midrashim (that would be a shmad). Hmmm… what are we to do?
Don’t fear – I have a perfect solution! We’ll have all the avreichim stay back and learn, b/c that’s what will really save us from this shmad anyway – not the silly rally. Instead, we’ll ask the non-chareidi tzibur to attend the rally in place of the avreichim. Surely the non-religious and dati leumi will be happy to attend the rally for us! Whew, disaster averted!
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Yerusha, you are probably not aware, that the IDF makes every soldier take an oath or at least an affirmation, that their commitment to the State overrides their commitment to Torah.
I also know of various anti-religious decrees that the army currently imposes on its soldiers.
The army currently is not being used just only to fight.
It is being used to advance phoney peace deals and to evict Jews from their homes.
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Yerusha, you are probably not aware, that the IDF makes every soldier take an oath or at least an affirmation, that their commitment to the State overrides their commitment to Torah.
I also know of various anti-religious decrees that the army currently imposes on its soldiers.
The army currently is not being used just only to fight.
It is being used to advance phoney peace deals and to evict Jews from their homes.
2- True
1- Did not hear of this and I would like to see the source and know exactly where you got that from. Their are many Dati-Leumi and I would imagine an outrage. Anyone can just refuse that statement and only follow and do what is beneficial for the Jewish people.
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Any idea when and where this photo of Rabbi Kahane was taken?
Was he on miluim?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kd_f-CO2h6Y/TQqp09MaiwI/AAAAAAAAAUk/jIVFksV9pQ4/s1600/RABBI+MEIR+KAHANE%252C+ZTL.jpg)
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It looks like that picture is posted on Baruch Cohens blog... Very interesting that I just listened to Baruch Cohen talking with Shifra Hoffman on Tamar Yonahs radio show...
http://attorneysdefendingisrael.blogspot.com/2010/12/rabbi-meir-kahane-ztl.html
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Yerusha, you are probably not aware, that the IDF makes every soldier take an oath or at least an affirmation, that their commitment to the State overrides their commitment to Torah.
. Never heard of this. I don't believe that is the case. Source?
I also know of various anti-religious decrees that the army currently imposes on its soldiers.
The army currently is not being used just only to fight.
It is being used to advance phoney peace deals and to evict Jews from their homes.
That's not the point of this discussion however. They are opposed to army service IN PRINCIPLE. Even if rav eliashiv was prime minister.
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I don't understand why any religious Jews would be opposed to army service. What if they had their own male only units? Is it because they don't want to throw Jews out of their homes? Or would they still be opposed even in a Torah true, right wing Israel?
Also, if King David went out and fought Israel's enemies, why can't these Haredim?
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That's not the point of this discussion however. They are opposed to army service IN PRINCIPLE. Even if rav eliashiv was prime minister.
What principle? They simply could have gotten away with it for all this time. funny how some of them are screaming "Shmad" and other such terms, yett did not say s@#% when it came to Gush Katif.
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I don't understand why any religious Jews would be opposed to army service. What if they had their own male only units? Is it because they don't want to throw Jews out of their homes? Or would they still be opposed even in a Torah true, right wing Israel?
No, it's not because of the army throwing Jews out of their homes. It is only rare ideological purists like me who feel this way about the army. Most of the people who feel that way and refuse to serve on account of the army throwing Jews out of their homes and being an arab loving disgrace, are DATI LEUMI not haredim. haredim are already exempt so this doesn't even come up for them.
The haredi society has been convinced (you might call it brainwashed) that serving in an army is not acceptable activity for a young man. Only full time kollel learning is acceptable. Similarly, employment is viewed with disdain. People getting jobs instead of kollel are viewed as lower beings and they are socially outcast. This is how it is in haredi communities in Israel. Those who attribute other reasons to their opposition to army service are liars. The Nahal Haredi unit was formed specifically for haredim who cannot sit and learn but want to do their service so that they can then (legally) get jobs. That unit is up to the strictest haredi standards as set out by rebbeim. Many haredi rabbis spoke out against even this unit, and many haredim attacked the one prominent rav who was for it. (They even firebombed his car - some respect they have for gedolim).
Also, if King David went out and fought Israel's enemies, why can't these Haredim?
Their answer to that question? 'It was different then. Now Jewish men must learn. That will bring moshiach.' That is what they think. I certainly do not agree with that point of view.
And anyone who tries to claim otherwise simply does not understand haredim or is simply lying.
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1) What if they had their own male only units?
2) Also, if King David went out and fought Israel's enemies, why can't these Haredim?
Their already are. Rav Kahane ZTL HYD also proposed this as well. See his essay in this book (I know its here, but don't know which 1 exactly but remember reading it in this volume, parts of the articles are available here.
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Words-Selected-1960-1990-1988-1989/dp/1463689225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341966649&sr=8-1&keywords=Meir+kahane+6
2) apparently they know better.
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No, it's not because of the army throwing Jews out of their homes. It is only rare ideological purists like me who feel this way about the army. Most of the people who feel that way and refuse to serve on account of the army throwing Jews out of their homes and being an arab loving disgrace, are DATI LEUMI not haredim.
The haredi society has been convinced (you might call it brainwashed) that serving in an army is not acceptable activity for a young man. Only full time kollel learning is acceptable. Similarly, employment is viewed with disdain. People getting jobs instead of kollel are viewed as lower beings and they are socially outcast. This is how it is in haredi communities in Israel. Those who attribute other reasons to their opposition to army service are liars. The Nahal Haredi unit was formed specifically for haredim who cannot sit and learn but want to do their service so that they can then (legally) get jobs. That unit is up to the strictest haredi standards as set out by rebbeim. Many haredi rabbis spoke out against even this unit, and many haredim attacked the one prominent rav who was for it. (They even firebombed his car - some respect they have for gedolim).
Their answer to that question? 'It was different then. Now Jewish men must learn. That will bring moshiach.' That is what they think. I certainly do not agree with that point of view.
And anyone who tries to claim otherwise simply does not understand haredim or is simply lying.
True and agreed. I would also like to add that many of them view it as if they are living in the Galut, for example in Czarist Russia. It is often said by them that "we are in galut" by those living in the center of JERUSHALAYIM of all places. Apparently that is where their minds are.
I know and heard of the incident of Rav Steinman who supported Nahal Haredi (which has many very fine warriors, many of them Dati-Leumi as well). Apparently their excuse of "the Gedolim say ______" does not stand especially where one of the "Gedolim" said opposite of what they preached, but then we are told he is not a "Gadol". Go figure. ( If you or someone has an article from he news or other place on this I would appreciate it)
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Lisa (and those interested) its page 143 from the link I posted earlier
Search inside the book here
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Words-Selected-1960-1990-1988-1989/dp/1463689225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341966649&sr=8-1&keywords=Meir+kahane+6
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I find it odd that these Haredim would firebomb the car of one of their rabbis with whom they have a difference of opinion, yet they refuse to fight againt moosie/Arab terrorists who want to destroy Israel.
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I find it odd that these Haredim would firebomb the car of one of their rabbis with whom they have a difference of opinion, yet they refuse to fight againt moosie/Arab terrorists who want to destroy Israel.
Those types who would do that are all politics and very little religion.
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I find it odd that these Haredim would firebomb the car of one of their rabbis with whom they have a difference of opinion, yet they refuse to fight againt moosie/Arab terrorists who want to destroy Israel.
I believe it was NK (I could be wrong, but seems like them). These fools would and did stand with the arab enemy.
And with all their learning that they claim, they are complete fools and idiots. Low IQ as well.
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Those types who would do that are all politics and very little religion.
I don't understand.
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I don't understand.
They dress in very religious garb but their real life passion is politics which they try to convince themselves and others is religion, when it isn't. (ie they pass off their clearly political views, which they protest, riot, lobby for, as if they are required by Judaism and they are expressing their Jewish religion by upholding them. When in reality, they are merely a political activist group and often their views go against Judaism or at very least, conflicting views exist and are valid according to any objective opinion).
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This is the oath of allegiance in Hebrew that all soldiers must take
הנני נשבע(ת) ומתחייב(ת) בהן צדקי לשמור אמונים למדינת ישראל לחוקיה ולשלטונותיה המוסמכים, לקבל על עצמי ללא תנאי וללא סייג עול משמעתו של צבא הגנה לישראל, לציית לכל הפקודות וההוראות הניתנות על ידי המפקדים המוסמכים ולהקדיש את כל כוחותיי ואף להקריב את חיי להגנת המולדת ולחירות ישראל.
Which says that I accept allegiance to the state and the army to its laws and officers, without any precondition at all and I will obey all orders by officers etc.
When I was in the army, I asked the soldier who was in charge of my unit straight out, does this mean if the Rabbis say in the name of the Torah it is forbidden to evict Jewish settlers and the army says otherwise, you are obligating yourself to follow army law above Torah law.
He said yes.
I told him that in that case I don't accept the loyalty oath and do to me what you want, I am not taking it. However, I had a question if it was sufficient to just tell everyone in my unit about my plans, but stand at the ceremony or to refuse even to stand at the oath ceremony.
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excerpt from: http://www.vilnagaon.org/mount/draft_resistance.htm (http://www.vilnagaon.org/mount/draft_resistance.htm)
Refusing Orders for the Sake of the Mitzva of Tzitzit - from the B'Sheva Newspaper article written on 30th of Av 5766 [the story appears in Rabbi Eliezer Melamed's article]
Displaying Tzizit in the Army
About a month ago a group of students were drafted for army service. If in every place there is a mitzva to display one's Tzitzit so that they will be seen on the outside, for it was stated (Number 15,39) "And you shall see it and you shall remember all the commandments of Hashem and you shall do them and you shall not go astray after your hearts and after your eyes that you lust after them"; behold in the army, where in this framework we are warned especially to guard ourselves from every evil thing, the mitzva is doubled many times over.
And so too did the Shulchan Aruch rule (O.C. 8:11): "The main mitzva of the small Talit {Talit Katan} is to wear it over one's clothes in order that it shall continually be seen and he will remember the commandments". However, in the name of The Ari it was stated, that the place of the small Talit is to be under the clothes. And many of the Jews of Sephardi origin are accustomed based on this to hide even their Tzitzit (YCHV"D 2:1). However the 'Magen Avraham' (8,13) explained that the intent was to hide the garment however, the Tzitzit have to be displayed. Furthermore, in his opinion, when the Tzitzit threads are not displayed there is a great doubt if one fulfills the mitzva.
Our teacher and Rabbi, Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook ZT"L, head of "Yeshivat Mercaz Harav", would over and over again repeat and recall the words of the 'Magen Avraham', that one is required to display on the outside his Tzitzit, so that they will be seen and by means of this, they will remember all the commandments. Continuing on with this line of reasoning, he would teach his students that one should be careful about displaying one's Tzitzit in the army, except for those situations where security requirements demand that they be hidden.
The Case in Golani
For the bad luck of the students that were drafted to the Golani {branch of the army}, the Major at "boot camp" was religious. And now you already understand everything.
In the beginning they decreed upon them to put their Tzitzit inside. They {the students} insisted to take them out. Afterwards they decreed to wrap them around the belt. They {the students} insisted to let a greater length of the Tzitzit be displayed. Even the chaplain {rabbi} of the army stood on the side of the commander. However, from the Military Branch of the Chief Rabbinate, an order descended afterwards that permits the display of Tzitzit in most cases.
The end result was that the seven youths were judged for fourteen days of military confinement and one of them who did not agree to be judged by a minor commander received a decree of 21 days. However, they continue to display their Tzitzit. Also other soldiers that were afraid at the beginning to display their Tzitzit began to display them. Praised be you who were caught on account of matters of Torah {end of quote}.
In my opinion, if it is already permissible to struggle for the sake of the Tzitzit [even at the time of war] it is permissible to struggle for the sake of saving our brothers, who are going to die because of the Christian Morality of "Purity of Arms".
What do I mean by the "Purity of Arms"? An example of this is the statement by Cabinet Minister Avi Dichter of Ehud Olmert's government that was quoted by the left wing Haaretz news {in Hebrew} on the internet on Tuesday the 21st of Av 5766, {Secular Date August 15, 2006}.
"To what extent is the government involved with the question of morality when it grants permission to military operations?"
"Dichter: In not a small amount of the discussions of the government, the dilemma is until what point do we untie the rope and give the I.D.F. a free hand. I will give you an example, namely, the operation of Marines {or Navy} Unit 13 in Tyre. You have no idea what type of danger there was in this operation. There was there a building many stories high with 80 apartments and 400 inhabitants.
The intent was to attack about 20 terrorists there. A one-ton bomb would destroy the building and the 400 civilians would be killed. It is clear to me that the U.S.A., England, and Russia would have done this. But I am very proud that the I.D.F. did not think of this option. I have no doubt that in the long run this approach keeps us human. In the day that we turn into animals then we will also act as animals. To my personal happiness , in this topic we preserve the human image. There is no asset more valuable than the human image."
In contrast to Avi Dichter, Moshe {Moses} had a very different moral ideal.
"Now Moshe was intensely angry at the officers of the army, namely, the Commanders of thousands and the Commanders of hundreds, that came back from the army that had engaged in the war. Now Moshe said to them, have you kept alive all the females. Behold they were by the counsel of Bi'laam a cause for making Israel transgress in the matter of Pe'or and the plague struck against the congregation of Hashem. And now kill all the young males and every woman who has gone to bed with a man you shall kill. And all the youngest female children that have not known the bed of a man you shall keep alive for yourselves." {Numbers Chapter 31; also see Rabbi Elitzur Segel's article in Tzipia Volume 3 where he brings many halachic sources to show that it would be permissible for a Jewish army to blow up a building that has a mixture of terrorists and enemy civilians within it.}
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I am afraid to say it, but if the 2008 Merkaz Harav yeshivah massacre of knitted white kippot boys had instead taken place in Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem or Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, and it had been 20 black-velveted kippot boys that had been slain by an Arab, we wouldn't be in this situation, and the Zahal recruitment halls would be overflowing evry year with thousands of Haredi volunteers.
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I am afraid to say it, but if the 2008 Merkaz Harav yeshivah massacre of knitted white kippot boys had instead taken place in Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem or Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, and it had been 20 black-velveted kippot boys that had been slain by an Arab, we wouldn't be in this situation, and the Zahal recruitment halls would be overflowing evry year with thousands of Haredi volunteers.
Doubt it.
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This is the oath of allegiance in Hebrew that all soldiers must take
Which says that I accept allegiance to the state and the army to its laws and officers, without any precondition at all and I will obey all orders by officers etc.
When I was in the army, I asked the soldier who was in charge of my unit straight out, does this mean if the Rabbis say in the name of the Torah it is forbidden to evict Jewish settlers and the army says otherwise, you are obligating yourself to follow army law above Torah law.
He said yes.
I told him that in that case I don't accept the loyalty oath and do to me what you want, I am not taking it. However, I had a question if it was sufficient to just tell everyone in my unit about my plans, but stand at the ceremony or to refuse even to stand at the oath ceremony.
So what did you end up doing?
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I am afraid to say it, but if the 2008 Merkaz Harav yeshivah massacre of knitted white kippot boys had instead taken place in Mirrer Yeshiva in Jerusalem or Ponovezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak, and it had been 20 black-velveted kippot boys that had been slain by an Arab, we wouldn't be in this situation, and the Zahal recruitment halls would be overflowing evry year with thousands of Haredi volunteers.
Such an imagination on this one.
You couldn't be more wrong. And why do you act like haredim have never been murdered by terrorists? Even while learning. Don't you remember what the animals did to chabadniks in the early days?
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Together with the Lubavitcher Rebbe's not-one-inch-stance, the 1956 Kfar Habad massacre http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=18383
is the reason why a higher % of Chabadniks serve in Zahal than any other Haredi group
(http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.414601.1330151954!/image/3452209460.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_139/3452209460.jpg)
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Together with the Lubavitcher Rebbe's not-one-inch-stance, the 1956 Kfar Habad massacre http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=18383
is the reason why a higher % of Chabadniks serve in Zahal than any other Haredi group
(http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.414601.1330151954!/image/3452209460.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_139/3452209460.jpg)
One does not lead to the other. Had the previous Chabad Rebbe not made his pro Eretz Yisrael statements and Haskaffa I very much doubt Chabadniks would volunteer the way that many of them do.
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Here a simple example of a homicide arab nazi bomber murdering some Haredim. We didn't see them joining I.D.F. because of it.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,46978,00.html
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Tag-MehirTzedek
I was just about to paste some evidence that terror attacks on Charedis don't necessarily add up to enlistment in the IDF, but I saw you were quicker in your response.
In any case, the link I wanted to supply describes the bus bombing, which killed many charedi jews on a return trip from the Kotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing)
I remember at least some charedis concluded from the bus bombing, that it was a punishment because, there wasn't a separate men and women section for passengers on the bus. Or at least they did not merit Divine Intervention to save them because of this issue.
Other "spiritual" reasons are offered by Charedi ideologues such as Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak, to explain Arab terror. He never says joining the IDF is the solution.
Yerusha, you also made the assumption in your post that there is some link between joining the IDF and increased security. But as long as you have Israeli Ministers of Defense, who are elected to high party positions based on the Arab vote and as long as you have Israeli leadership that believes in the ideology of the "purity of arms" as well as, "land for peace", don't expect a big improvement in security even if the I.D.F. doubles its size.
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Tag-MehirTzedek
I was just about to paste some evidence that terror attacks on Charedis don't necessarily add up to enlistment in the IDF, but I saw you were quicker in your response.
In any case, the link I wanted to supply describes the bus bombing, which killed many charedi jews on a return trip from the Kotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing)
I remember at least some charedis concluded from the bus bombing, that it was a punishment because, there wasn't a separate men and women section for passengers on the bus. Or at least they did not merit Divine Intervention to save them because of this issue.
Other "spiritual" reasons are offered by Charedi ideologues such as Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak, to explain Arab terror. He never says joining the IDF is the solution.
Yerusha, you also made the assumption in your post that there is some link between joining the IDF and increased security. But as long as you have Israeli Ministers of Defense, who are elected to high party positions based on the Arab vote and as long as you have Israeli leadership that believes in the ideology of the "purity of arms" as well as, "land for peace", don't expect a big improvement in security even if the I.D.F. doubles its size.
Well said.
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Not quite a million Haredim demonstrating yet, but it's a start! http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4256339,00.html
The more the Haredim demonstrate their evil stupidity in fighting against the mitzva of Milchemet Mitzva, the greater will be the Kitrug against them from Shamayim, which is for the good.
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Not quite a million Haredim demonstrating yet, but it's a start! http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4256339,00.html
The more the Haredim demonstrate their evil stupidity in fighting against the mitzva of Milchemet Mitzva, the greater will be the Kitrug against them from Shamayim, which is for the good.
Lol wut?
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I'm going to take the unpopular view of saying leave the Haredim alone.
Please don't attack or jump all over me. I would gladly fight or die for Israel. But if the super religious want to be in a Yeshiva all day and have 10 kids each then that's their thing.
Even if the government forces them to join the IDF or national service, they are not going to do it. They just wont go sign up and many will rather get arrested and go to prison than join.
Hopefully people won't hate me for saying this.
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I'm going to take the unpopular view of saying leave the Haredim alone.
Please don't attack or jump all over me. I would gladly fight or die for Israel. But if the super religious want to be in a Yeshiva all day and have 10 kids each then that's their thing.
Even if the government forces them to join the IDF or national service, they are not going to do it. They just wont go sign up and many will rather get arrested and go to prison than join.
Hopefully people won't hate me for saying this.
I dont hate you for saying this. I am one who defends the Charadim quite often. I brought up this issue while meeting with my Rabbi last Sunday. He said he believes that there should be service for some Charadim who are not actively in Yeshiva learning or teaching. Those who truly dedicate themselves to Torah learning/teaching should be able to be exempt from service. He said this with the idea that the Torah study of the Jewish people protect us from harm from our enemies...
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Those who truly dedicate themselves to Torah learning/teaching should be able to be exempt from service. He said this with the idea that the Torah study of the Jewish people protect us from harm from our enemies...
I agree 100%. If a man would rather and honestly really spend all day doing Torah study at a Yeshiva I would rather him stay there.
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I agree 100%. If a man would rather and honestly really spend all day doing Torah study at a Yeshiva I would rather him stay there.
While he depends on evil people for handouts so that his 10 kids don't starve?
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Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl). I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve. I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):
"These are the things for which a person enjoys the dividends in this world while the principal remains for the person to enjoy in the world to come. They are: honoring parents, loving deeds of kindness, and making peace between one person and another, but the study of the Torah is equal to them all"(Talmud Shabbat 127a)
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Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl).
But in the past, they didn't have a whole society of people in full-time kollel learning. That is simply not reality. Only the most elite learners and exceptional tzaddikim/scholars stayed in yeshiva, and only the best of the best out of that crop STAYED in yeshiva to become a rav/scholar (an actual job!) while the others went to work because they had to support themselves and a family. There was no mass kollel system in the past.
Ever hear of the Torah Temimah? It was written by Rabbi Baruch HaLevy Epstein. He was the star student of the Volozhin yeshiva run by his uncle, the Netziv. To his regret, as he writes throughout his memoirs, he had to leave yeshiva in order to become a businessman, so that he could provide for his family. He maintained his studies in his free time, and put together Torah Temima out of a lifetime of Torah study. He is one of the greatest Jewish scholars. And if he didn't remain in volozhin, can you imagine how many lesser scholars who were fellow students of his most certainly also went to work themselves? Not everyone is destined to become a Bes HaLevy or a Netziv, and certainly no one expects hundreds of thousands to do so while collecting donations.
I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
That also was not the case traditionally. Men were expected to provide for their families. Women were expected to raise children, not to hire indonesians or singaporians to do it while working since the man refuses to get a job. Anyway, I don't have a problem with women working too. But parents have to raise their own kids.
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing.
They choose it less as time goes on because financial circumstances are forcing them to adapt to the impossibility of sustaining a system that is not sustainable. The govt is trying to force immediate changes on them externally and that is wrong. If they really cared about haredim, they would simply try to help ease the actual changes happening organically and remove restrictions from these Jews when they branch out to try different things. Obviously the govt doesn't care about haredim or any Jews.
I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve. I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):
Whatever the merit of these points, it doesn't change the historical reality that a mass kollel society is a modern-day innovation and it exists on an unprecedented scale that none of the generations past could have ever imagined, and secondly, that such a system is not sustainable economically. They have no choice but to beg for handouts from evil people in the israeli govt because otherwise that system cannot persist. And I really don't care that the govt has to pay the yeshivas, I'm speaking from the point of view of haredim - To be dependent on handouts (especially from evil people) is undignified and damaging to haredi men and haredi society.
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Haredim in Israel don't live that well. They could leave their communities, they could send their kids to universities to become lawyers and doctors and start buying bigger homes and more luxury. The choice is their but they want nothing of that. All they want is to live in their own communities and all they want is for us to leave them alone. Go into their neighborhood immorally and they're yell or throw stones until you leave. They really would rather people leave them alone. And they would rather be dragged to prison than serve in the IDF.
Personally, I choose to leave them alone. I don't mind if my money goes to assist a young religious man attend Yeshiva as long as he's honest in doing so. Just like in the future if/when I have a son and I can't afford any of the expensive religious schools for him in the US, maybe I can get some assistance (religious grants) for him to get a religious education. Although I would prefer to be able to afford it myself. Just an example.
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בס''ד
The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.
The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.
The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".
The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.
The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.
The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".
If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.
Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.
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So if Haredim "want to do their thing and we should leave them alone." Then Secularist leftist should be able to do "their own thing and be left alone."
Can you solve that problem?
Then they can support themselves within the Haredi community in traditional religious jobs the way that Jewish men in the past who spent all day in Yeshiva used to do before Israel was re-established (I'm talking 1700's, 1800s, early 1900s life in the Shetl). I also hate to say it, but many of the wives are the breadwinners in these communities rather than the men (usually shopkeepers, school teachers at religious girls schools, etc).
But if this is the life they choose that's their thing. I'm not going to be ok with the government forcing them to live otherwise especially knowing that these men are going to refuse service and will all end up in jail. So we're going to spend money on jailing young man after young man for refusing to serve. I do believe that these men will rather choose to not show up for inscription and go to prison rather than serve.
If we think that by opening service to them is going to make them go, we must be delusional. Not when it is instilled to their very core that they do not and will not serve. Some may join but forcing them to do so is not going to make the majority do so. They care more about their derech than if a government official tells them they have to put a green uniform on.
I do value if a man chooses to seriously spend all day in the Yeshiva (and I mean seriously, not lazily do it for no merit but those who do it out of a burning passion):
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Chaim, but I have a question. You bring up a good point about today's IDF. But if it were the dignified type of IDF, what would your opinion be?
בס''ד
The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.
The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.
The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".
The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.
The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.
The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".
If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.
Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.
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If you're put in the wrong Zahal unit you can lose everything.
I know a 20 year old Lubavitcher from Boston who volunteered for Zahal last year. After just 3 months in the army in a wrong unit, having been exposed to drunken Ukrainian goyim, secular gay soldiers, sluttish girl soldiers, anti-Zionist Bedouin, Circassian and Druze troops, evil nasty anti-Kahane anti-Rebbe leftwing officers, and exposed to alcohol and drugs, he became schizophrenic and completely relinquished the religion and became violently anti-Zionist himself. There are many cases like this.
Indeed, on a Satanic level, that is the very purpose of Zahal: to de-Judaize the population and turn them in to left-wing womanizing atheists! The only reason the Erev Rav who rule Israel are making such a tumult at this time is because they see that it it is their last chance to prevent the Haredim becoming the demographic majority by 2025, by forcing their compulsory mass conscription and mass secularization.
Zahal loathes the Orthodox-only Nahal Haredi and Hesder units, and would love to disband them. TPTB want Haredim to compulsorily join Zahal on their terms ie to be dispersed thought all the units, watered down, exposed to immodest females and secular values etc.
No way will Haredim join Zahal unless it is in to un-mixed Haredi units catering to their needs and preserving their group identity on every level ie Bobover Bombardiers, Sanzer Sappers, Mirrer Minelayers, Vizhnitz Infantry, Ponovez Tankists, Breslov Bridgelayers etc.
The Chillonim would literally rather disband Zahal and see the Medina fall than let Haredim join en masse in their own units and preserve their identity, and also get weapons training that could be used in a coup to storm the Knesset or even the Temple Mount.
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בס''ד
But if their was no army what would have happened then? The army also fights against Arab enemies (however weak it currently is). What is the solution then? I understand to not follow evil orders, but at the same time don't you see that an army or a force is needed to fight against the Arab enemies?
Also you mentioned pre-Gush Katif, are you telling me their weren't any serious problems back then? Including the kidnapping of Jewish children, shooting of the Altellena and other such incidents.
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Yesterday night I downloaded some lectures into my MP3 player to listen in my car since I'm not listening to music while driving like I usually do.
Coincidentally, the lecture I turned on today spoke about this topic. I was surprised. I have the audio but there is also a video. Please listen to his explanation about this topic, it's what I wanted to say. I'm also quoting what Rabbi Benhaim says.
http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Avraham_Benhaim/2009-10-14/The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel/Rabbi__Avraham_Benhaim__The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel__2009-10-14.wmv (http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Avraham_Benhaim/2009-10-14/The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel/Rabbi__Avraham_Benhaim__The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel__2009-10-14.wmv)
If the video doesn't work, here's the audio:
http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Avraham_Benhaim/2009-10-14/The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel/Rabbi__Avraham_Benhaim__The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel__2009-10-14.mp3
(http://www.torahanytime.com/scripts/media.php?file=media/Rabbi/Avraham_Benhaim/2009-10-14/The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel/Rabbi__Avraham_Benhaim__The_Light_the_Torah_and_the_Land_of_Israel__2009-10-14.mp3)
The entire lecture is great but the part that deals with this question starts at 10:33
That’s why we have to owe a tremendous appreciation to the yeshivot in Israel. We have to understand how much we should be appreciative towards all the young people who study in kollelim, in Torah day and night. Instead of going and making a nice living by becoming engineers and doctors they go and become Talmudic hahamin.
Which is denigrated by most people and amongst them many Jews. “Hey go to work what is this”? They don’t understand that what gives us the hope to keep the land of Israel and to keep the world alive is only because those people, those gentlemen sit down and study Torah.
That's what this Rabbi says. I know some people disagree and would want to force these young men into service, even though these young men will just go to prison for a few months and go back to continue their studies. Others say they are fighting a spiritual war. Others say that the secular Jews in Israel (who are the most vocal against the Haredi to serve, all while desecrating Shabbat themselves) put the country in danger.. And it is the Torah scholars and those who study Torah day and night who keep Israel safe from the detrimental spiritual threats.
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Yerusha, I agree with what you say.
We have to understand, Haredi young men have not hung around with women, outsiders and Israeli goyim all their lives. So we're going to take them out of their communities and throw them in with these groups of people? We're is our love for a fellow Jew in this. They study Torah every day and take great joy in doing so. They have a derech. But we want to take them out of this, divert their derech and right into the same room with these "slutty female soldiers" and I have seen some of these women.
I'm not extremely religious but I at least know how to behave and dress around ultra-religious people. I do not agree with tearing these young men from their religious life and putting them into an organization that hates them and looks down on their ultra-religious life with contempt.
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Rabbi Benhaim
Rav Ben Haim is a great Rav I have been listening to his lectures. Thanks for posting this I am listening now, on the other hand I also do remember him saying that learning all day is not for everyone especially when he cannot afford it.
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The article I mentioned earlier in full-- (thanks to)
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“K a h a n e”
The magazine of the authentic Jewish Idea
November-December 1988 Cheshvan – Kislev 5749
The following article written in 1988 is one of the top topics today in the Knesset and all-segments of the Israeli people. It is the TAL Law. Rabbi Kahane writes who should go into the army, who should not in this obligatory war we are fighting against our enemies. Separate unit for ultra-Orthodox in the army etc. This article should be handed to Prime Minister Netanyahu and to all rabbis. Amazing that Rabbi Kahane hit on the problem so many years ago, and came up with a solution. Interesting reading for all.
The Weakness
In their obsessive attack on authentic Jewry, what have the haters not touched upon? How the “ultra-Orthodox” dress; how they speak; how they cheat; how they are parasites; how they are aggressive; how they keep to themselves. All the horrible charges dredged up by the Nazis against the Jewish people, per se. All the Jewish anti-Semitism that is as brutal and nauseating as the gentile kind.
But amidst all the lies and calumny and defamation and sheer hate, there is one point which the haters have seized upon which strikes a tragically responsive chord in many a Jew in Israel who is not anti-religious. That is the question of army service for Yeshiva students.
Let it be clear. There is nothing more important for the Jewish people than the study of Torah. Upon Torah study does Israel – and the world – rest. Torah scholars are infinitely more important to Israel than any category of professionals and it is not relevant that secular Jews do not grasp this.
“The study of Torah is greater than the building of the Holy Temple.”
“The study of Torah is greater than honoring parents.”
“The study of Torah is greater than the priesthood and the kingship”
There is clear, beyond debate. The question that remains, however is: what does a scholar do in the time of a milchemet mitzvah, an obligatory war, one of the categories that Maimonides (Hilchot M’lachim 5:1) lists: “And what is an obligatory war? The war against the seven (Canaanite) nations; the war against Amalek, and aiding Israel against an enemy that comes up against them.”
If ever there was such a war as mentioned in the third category it is surely this struggle against the Arabs who come up against us to destroy Israel.
Given that, it is surely a halachic question whether anyone is exempt from such a war. Maimonides brings down the Braita (Tractate Sotah) and declares: “In an obligatory war, all go out (to battle), even the bridegroom from his room and the bride from her canopy.” (Hilchot M’lachim 7:4)
Whether this includes those scholars who do nothing but learn is a question that many of the commentators deal with but it is certainly something to consider. What is clear is that the entire issue is one that has led to tremendous anger and bitter antagonisms on the part of many Jews who are not haters of Torah Judaism and let no one underestimate the damage and Hillul Hashem that this is causing. The fact that sons of some Jews go into army and risk danger to life while others do not, is an explosive one that leads to intense bitterness especially when it is fanned by the professional inciters of Torah-hating Left.
If the halachic, nevertheless, says that scholars shall not go into the army – then that settles the issue, not matter how critical and bitter it will become. But surely, the rabbis must deal decisively and courageously with the issue and not allow internal pressure from certain groups within the religious community to sway them or cause them to hesitate to rule forcefully if the halachic does call for army service for all scholars in the event of a milchemet mitzvah.
On the other hand, it is clear that a student who does not devote his entire time to Torah study; who does not “mediate therein day and night”; who studies only most or part of the day but also works or gives of his time to other things, is surely obligated to participate in a milchemet mitzvah. If one’s dedication to Torah is not total and one can find time to work, then he can certainly find time to participate in the obligatory war of defending his land and sanctifying the Name of the Almighty, which is the basis of a milchemet mitzvah.
The main argument against this, aside from that of “bitul Torah” taking time away from the learning of Torah, is the one that, a yeshiva scholar who is placed in the environment of the army can easily be led astray. There is much, very much to this. As one who has served for many years in the army, I can testify to the almost total lack of anything sacred in the army. Not only is the atmosphere one that is totally secular but the immorality surrounding women soldiers is nothing short of scandalous. (And spare me the hypocritical pieties of: Do you not have enough faith in yeshiva students to trust them to overcome all this? I will accept this argument from all the parents who will see nothing wrong in allowing their children to wander freely in any kind of atmosphere and accept their angry complaint: Don’t you trust me?)
Nevertheless, there is a solution to this, also. The army can be asked to set aside a large army base for the exclusive use of religious scholars. There, they will undergo the same kind of training that other soldiers do and there they can have their rabbis visit each night and pass on Torah lessons to them. It will be a base which will be totally religious, sacred and moral – but an army base in every sense of the word.
Is such a suggestion so extreme? Hardly. It will find favor in the eyes of G-d and Jews. Consider how it would take from the Haters of Torah the most potent of weapons. Consider how it would sanctify the Name of G-d. And above all, there is no doubt that it is an accord with halachic.
Let those whose entire life is committed to Torah study be exempt, if the sages decide that even an obligatory war does not bind them. But the others, the many others, who study only partially, cannot avoid the halachic obligation to participate in the milchemet mitzvah of defending the Land of Israel from the enemy that comes up against it.
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Chaim, but I have a question. You bring up a good point about today's IDF. But if it were the dignified type of IDF, what would your opinion be?
בס''ד
Great question.
I support Rabbi Kahane's position but it is conditioned on our having a Jewish army that protects the Jewish people. Right now we have an army that often acts as an enemy of the Jewish people.
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They're not expecting the charedim to join the army; they want them to do National Service, which is work in hospitals and other places to help people (and get paid a bit, too).
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But if their was no army what would have happened then? The army also fights against Arab enemies (however weak it currently is). What is the solution then? I understand to not follow evil orders, but at the same time don't you see that an army or a force is needed to fight against the Arab enemies?
Also you mentioned pre-Gush Katif, are you telling me their weren't any serious problems back then? Including the kidnapping of Jewish children, shooting of the Altellena and other such incidents.
בס''ד
There will always be people who will enlist in the army. There will never be a situation where we have no army. If we ever reach a point where many Jews refuse to enlist because of the army's anti-Jewish practices, then the army will be forced to change for the better.
The army of the 1967 Six Day War and the 1973 Yom Kippur War was at least patriotic to a certain degree. Today's army is not even patriotic. Leftist generals are controlled by the anti-Semitic news media and the Supreme Court. Most of the army's major actions are harmful - expelling Jews, uprooting Jewish communities, helping Arab Muslim Nazis, brainwashing Jewish soldiers etc.
I must also say that I am furious with you right now. Yesterday you uploaded to this forum a Judenrat kapo video promoting the Muslim Nazi Barack Hussein Obama as a "friend" of Israel. I removed the thread containing the video because it caused unnecessary tension between members of this forum. But you uploaded this evil treasonous video and you wrote:
" It can be argued perhaps that when a more open anti-Israel president is in power, Jews are more aware of that, thus more cautious as well."
I am not personally arguing for a more open anti-Israel administration. By the way some on the other political spectrum did claim that the democrats are the pro-Israel group compared to Republicans (that is what at least some will claim, not that I am agreeing them them, but that claim is out there by some people and groups. Even Obama himself claimed that.
In other words, you put forth as a serious point for consideration that Obama and the Democrats are "pro-Israel"! You then included the Obama Judenrat video.
This is beneath contempt. You call yourself "Tag Mechir" and pretend to be a super rightwinger and then you come on this forum urging us to consider the argument that Obama is "pro-Israel". I have lost all respect for you. Obama who demands that Israel go back to the pre-1967 holocaust borders and who for two whole years demanded that Jews not be allowed to live even in Jerusalem is "pro-Israel"?!?!?!? This black Muslim Nazi serpert is now cooling it for a while to get reelected, but he has promised to begin a huge campaign to get Israel to commit suicide if he wins a second term, G-d forbid. And you want us to look at his videos telling us that he is "pro-Israel".
Let me make it as clear as I can: Obama is openly working to destroy Israel and enable another holocaust in order to make his Muslim brothers victorious. Any Jew who in any way supports or excuses this is a self-hating traitor. Supporting Obama is like supporting Arafat or Ahmedinajad.
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בס''ד
The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.
The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.
The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".
The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.
The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.
The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".
If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.
Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.
If only these were the arguments presented by the haredim and their leadership! But we see that they do not say this or anything like it.
This is simply a case of a broken clock being right twice a day. The haredi leadership is against army service IN PRINCIPLE, just as they were in the better days when Rabbi Kahane served and fought. They are still against it today for the same reasons as then. And if tomorrow the IDF turned into an arab-killing machine, they would still be against it. They prefer that Jewish men live in a kollel society and fighting in an army (how goyish!) is for "subpar" Jews like me and you, not them.
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Rabbi Baruch Horovitz of Yeshia Dvar Yerushalayim stated that: "The initial onslaught of the Yom Kippur War took place at the height of Mussaf Avodah, when in the time of the Beis Hamikdash korbanos were offered up to atone for the whole of Klal Yisroel. Those soldiers who perished in that traumatic hour died as perfect tzaddikim".
(http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/El3pPnXKyP4/mqdefault.jpg)
It is thus possible for a secular soldier who dies whilst defending other Jews, could in one instant of agony gain a reward in Olam Haba greater than a Haredi Jew who spends a lifetime doing mitzvos & studying Torah, but who absolutely refuses to partake in the mitzva of Milchemes Mitzva!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Evacuated_Casualties_of_the_Yom_Kippur_War_-_Flickr_-_Israel_Defense_Forces.jpg)
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בס''ד
I must also say that I am furious with you right now. Yesterday you uploaded to this forum a Judenrat kapo video promoting the Muslim Nazi Barack Hussein Obama as a "friend" of Israel. I removed the thread containing the video because it caused unnecessary tension between members of this forum. But you uploaded this evil treasonous video and you wrote:
I never said that he is but that he claims to be . My point was and is that many politicians claim to be pro-Israel when they are not. In no way was I stating that Obama is pro-Israel. I don't understand why you did not understand what I was saying.
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I think a lot of Jews in the USA support Obama and try to convince themselves that he's pro-Israel even when he's really not at all (as Chaim pointed out) because they're generally a very left wing segment of the population, and they like his other policies like being pro-gay and pro-abortion and pro-illegal alien, so they overlook the fact that Obama hates Jews and Israel, or they try to fool themselves that Obama doesn't hate Jews and Israel.
They've even gone so far as to fool themselves into thinking the suicidal/genocidal "peace process" is a pro-Israel idea. So when they tell Jews outside the USA that Obama is "pro Israel" they really mean that he's for the suicidal/genocidal "peace process". Everyone on this forum knows that's not pro-Israel at all, but there are a lot of self-hating leftists who have convinced themselves and others that it is.
This is made worse by the Israeli government leftist or phony right leadership echoing the same ideas. Then the argument is made "How can an American president presume to be more pro-Israel than Israel itself is?" So the leftists use this as an excuse for people like Obama.
What you need to drive home to these people and I think what the essence of the problem is, is that the "peace process" is NOT pro-Israel and it will NOT help Israel's security, and it will NOT protect Jewish lives. If they can understand that, then they can no longer claim that Obama is "pro Israel" without knowing that they're lying. Of course many leftists would anyway.
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Rubstars I agree 100% I don't understand how Chaim completely misunderstood what I was exactly saying. In no way would I support Obama. I think that is clear, but what I posted (and what got Chaim upset with me) was Obama pretending to be Israel's "best friend". I was trying to point that out and not saying that he was . Whatever, I think by now I should be understood, soo I'm going to stop repeating myself on this issue.
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Rubstars I agree 100% I don't understand how Chaim completely misunderstood what I was exactly saying. In no way would I support Obama. I think that is clear, but what I posted (and what got Chaim upset with me) was Obama pretending to be Israel's "best friend". I was trying to point that out and not saying that he was . Whatever, I think by now I should be understood, soo I'm going to stop repeating myself on this issue.
I thought you were confused by the pro-Obama propaganda. I thought maybe you didn't know that when they claimed Obama was "pro Israel" that it really meant that he was for the suicidal/genocidal "peace process". That's the left's definition of "pro Israel". You know, it's classic doublespeak, everything means the opposite of what the words mean. When Obama says he's pro-Israel, he really means he wants to destroy Israel a little at a time.
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The secularist Haaretz's view of R.Elyashiv. Unfortunately they may have a bit of a point:
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/rabbi-elyashiv-s-empty-legacy.premium-1.452254
Haredi Jews are not given to calling up the Guinness Book of Records offices in London and claiming a place in its records. But were they prone to such a tendency, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the spiritual leader of "Lithuanian" ultra-Orthodoxy who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 102, may have well been a record-holder. He was one of the few men or women alive with over 1,000 living descendants (all from monogamous relationships), including a handful of great-great-great-grandchildren. Now that he is dead, it is certain that the new record-holder is another Haredi centenarian living in Jerusalem with similar progeny.
Talk of family planning and birth control within the Haredi community is tantamount to heresy - how can anyone view zar'a chaya ve’kayama (literally, living and existing offspring) that do not stop uttering the words of the Torah, as anything but a good thing? The questions of whether all parents are equipped and talented enough to deal with such huge families; the physical and mental toll of constant childbearing and childcare on young mothers who never have a chance to live life for themselves; and the broader economic and social viability of a community that multiplies itself at such a breathtaking pace without preparing its younger members to lead productive lives in an advanced society have not been addressed.
This is Rabbi Elyashiv’s real legacy. He was not the only architect of this society; other rabbis put the foundations in place, and both religious and secular politicians are at fault for having tailor-made Israel’s welfare system to cater for the needs of a Haredi sector whose members do not work or partake in any form of national service, save for studying a stultified version of Torah. But it was Elyashiv – who for 40 years was venerated as Posek Hador, the arbiter of a generation, and had the final word on any issue of halakhic law – who wielded ultimate political power over the most influential section of Haredi Jewry since the mid-1990s. He bears the responsibility for stifling any internal debate on resolving the tensions between an insular and traditional community and the modern Israeli society within which it exists and refusing to come up with solutions to the challenges threatening the sustainability of the Haredi model in the 21st century.
He could have used this unique opportunity to prepare his followers for the inevitable clash with the outside world, but he preferred to stop the clocks and freeze them in time. Any attempt at modernizing the curricula for boys and girls was met with fierce opposition to and denunciation of those who sought to sully “the pure education.” Likewise programs for vocational training for the majority of young men who are not fit to spending a life studying ancient texts were blocked. One of his last public proclamations was against academic courses designed specifically for young Haredi men and women, and it is ironic that his death came at the height of the public debate over Haredi conscription to the Israel Defense Forces.
His legacy is an empty one. Thousands are already defying his orders by joining the special IDF units in which Haredi men both serve and learn valuable skills for civilian life, and the academic streams specially tailored for ultra-Orthodox needs are flourishing despite his prohibitions. His path of paralysis has served to slow down these inevitable developments, damning most of the next Haredi generation to poverty, but despite his dictates, they are beginning to evolved and adapt to modern life. A century from now, Rabbi Elyashiv will not be revered as a Torah giant, but as a reactionary figure by the few who remember him.
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Yerusha I think that Jewish families should be large in Israel because it will help replenish the losses of numbers from all the pogroms and the Holocaust. I think it's a good thing if more Jewish babies are born, especially if they are raised by loving righteous families.
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The secularist Haaretz's view of R.Elyashiv. Unfortunately they may have a bit of a point:
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/rabbi-elyashiv-s-empty-legacy.premium-1.452254
Haredi Jews are not given to calling up the Guinness Book of Records offices in London and claiming a place in its records. But were they prone to such a tendency, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the spiritual leader of "Lithuanian" ultra-Orthodoxy who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 102, may have well been a record-holder. He was one of the few men or women alive with over 1,000 living descendants (all from monogamous relationships), including a handful of great-great-great-grandchildren. Now that he is dead, it is certain that the new record-holder is another Haredi centenarian living in Jerusalem with similar progeny.
Talk of family planning and birth control within the Haredi community is tantamount to heresy - how can anyone view zar'a chaya ve’kayama (literally, living and existing offspring) that do not stop uttering the words of the Torah, as anything but a good thing? The questions of whether all parents are equipped and talented enough to deal with such huge families; the physical and mental toll of constant childbearing and childcare on young mothers who never have a chance to live life for themselves; and the broader economic and social viability of a community that multiplies itself at such a breathtaking pace without preparing its younger members to lead productive lives in an advanced society have not been addressed.
This is Rabbi Elyashiv’s real legacy. He was not the only architect of this society; other rabbis put the foundations in place, and both religious and secular politicians are at fault for having tailor-made Israel’s welfare system to cater for the needs of a Haredi sector whose members do not work or partake in any form of national service, save for studying a stultified version of Torah. But it was Elyashiv – who for 40 years was venerated as Posek Hador, the arbiter of a generation, and had the final word on any issue of halakhic law – who wielded ultimate political power over the most influential section of Haredi Jewry since the mid-1990s. He bears the responsibility for stifling any internal debate on resolving the tensions between an insular and traditional community and the modern Israeli society within which it exists and refusing to come up with solutions to the challenges threatening the sustainability of the Haredi model in the 21st century.
He could have used this unique opportunity to prepare his followers for the inevitable clash with the outside world, but he preferred to stop the clocks and freeze them in time. Any attempt at modernizing the curricula for boys and girls was met with fierce opposition to and denunciation of those who sought to sully “the pure education.” Likewise programs for vocational training for the majority of young men who are not fit to spending a life studying ancient texts were blocked. One of his last public proclamations was against academic courses designed specifically for young Haredi men and women, and it is ironic that his death came at the height of the public debate over Haredi conscription to the Israel Defense Forces.
His legacy is an empty one. Thousands are already defying his orders by joining the special IDF units in which Haredi men both serve and learn valuable skills for civilian life, and the academic streams specially tailored for ultra-Orthodox needs are flourishing despite his prohibitions. His path of paralysis has served to slow down these inevitable developments, damning most of the next Haredi generation to poverty, but despite his dictates, they are beginning to evolved and adapt to modern life. A century from now, Rabbi Elyashiv will not be revered as a Torah giant, but as a reactionary figure by the few who remember him.
Yes, to a secular person or someone who doesn't believe that learning Torah is the be all and all of life, there is a point. G-d is providing these charedim with the means to support their lifestyles. How is he doing it? Through the welfare system. Pirkei Avos says that all our wealth is Hashem's anyways, and nothing is truly ours. We are just Hashem's tools. Thus, Hashem will ensure that everything goes according to His plan.
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Yes, to a secular person or someone who doesn't believe that learning Torah is the be all and all of life, there is a point. G-d is providing these charedim with the means to support their lifestyles. How is he doing it? Through the welfare system. Pirkei Avos says that all our wealth is Hashem's anyways, and nothing is truly ours. We are just Hashem's tools. Thus, Hashem will ensure that everything goes according to His plan.
Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
Chapter 1 # 10
"Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm
Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.
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Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
Chapter 1 # 10
"Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm
Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.
Im not sure if Mo was referring to this perek of Pirkie Avot but it is applicable:
Pirkie Avot 6:9
http://blog.webyeshiva.org/avot/money-or-meaning
R. Yossi the son of Kisma said: “I once encountered a man while traveling. He greeted me and I returned his greetings. He said to me: ‘Rabbi, where are you from?’ I said to him: ‘I am from a great city of sages and scholars.’ He said to me: ‘Rabbi, would you like to dwell with us in our place? I will give you a million dinars of gold, precious stones and pearls.’ I said to him: ‘If you were to give me all the silver, gold, precious stones and pearls in the world, I would not dwell anywhere but in a place of Torah. Indeed, so is written in the book of psalms by David the king of Israel: `I prefer the Torah of Your mouth over thousands in gold and silver’ (Tehillim 119:72). Furthermore, when a person passes from this world neither silver, nor gold, nor precious stones, nor pearls accompany him, only Torah and good deeds, as is stated (Mishlei 6:22): `When you go it will direct you, when you lie down it will watch over you, and when you awaken it shall be your speech.’ `When you go it will direct you’—in this world; `when you lie down it will watch over you’—in the grave; `and when you awaken it shall be our speech’—in the World To Come. Also it says (Haggai 2:8): `Mine is the silver and Mine is the gold, so says the Lord of Hosts.’’ (Avot 6:9)
The clash between the competing pursuits of material wealth and spiritual concerns remains a ubiquitous part of human life. R. Yossi declined an offer of significant riches because he did not want to leave a location saturated with Torah. According to Tifferet Yisrael, their exchange of greetings indicates that the fellow who made the offer came from a town with decency and moral behavior. Thus, the opportunity for money came together with polite neighbors. Nonetheless, R. Yossi turned down the chance since this town lacked the environment of Torah knowledge within which he thrived.
Why does R. Yossi prefer Torah to material bounty? His first argument is of the “You can’t take it with you” variety. Large bank accounts no longer help the deceased whereas the accumulated merits of mizvot do pass on the next world. R. Yossi’s exposition upon the verse from Mishlei both echoes that point and also brings other arguments to the fore. Statements about Torah’s impact in “the grave” and in “the World To Come” point to the enduring worth of Torah and good deeds as opposed to the ephemeral benefits of money.
According to this mishna’s reading of the earlier part of the verse, Mishlei instructs us about direction in this world received from involvement in Torah. Torah provides a framework for ethical and spiritual striving often lacking when a person seeks different goals. Indeed, we dare not limit the advantages of Torah study to its otherworldly compensation. In this world alone, one cannot compare a life of wealth with a life of spiritual questing.
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See also Pirkei Avot 4:12
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.html
12. Rabbi Meir said: Engage little in business but occupy yourself with Torah. Be humble in spirit before all men. If you neglect Torah many causes for neglecting it will present themselves to you; but if you labor in Torah then G-d has abundant reward to give you.
http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter4-12.html
For the most part, this week's mishna seems to revolve around one basic theme -- that Torah and religion should play the most important part of our lives over livelihood and career.
R. Meir first advises that we lessen our business activities and study more Torah. As many of us know, work never really finishes -- even after that deadline has passed. There are always loose ends to tie up, e-mails to respond to, work to take home from the office, and new ventures to undertake, thereby (we suppose) earning us more money and prestige. And of course, thanks to cell phones, palmtops, blackberries, etc. (whatever the latest is -- I have trouble keeping track) the aggravation never ends.
(It's been observed that most adults spends more of their waking hours with coworkers than with spouse and children. Perhaps unavoidable, but hardly beneficial to family cohesiveness. Hopefully, the family time will be superior in quality if not in quantity.)
To this our mishna states that there must be a limit. For most of us work is a necessary mainstay of our lives, in fact a fulfillment of a Torah obligation to support ourselves monetarily. But it is at best an indirect form of Divine service. It must never take precedence over true spiritual growth.
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Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
Chapter 1 # 10
"Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm
Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.
Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka. When I review Pirkei Avos again, I will find the same exact place, but it could also be in Orchas Tzadikim...It shouldn't be too hard to find a source in the Torah which say that all of our wealth belongs to Hashem and that everything in the universe comes from Him.
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Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka.
True, I never said not to give Tzedakah. It is an obligation.
And Muman- thanks for proving my point with this - " Rabbi Meir said: Engage little in business but occupy yourself with Torah. "
That is what the great giants did and recommended. Work little, be independent, but focus mainly upon Torah, Mitzwoth and Maase Tovim.
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it's a secular state. I would expect no less than for the chilonim to wish to wipe out Torah the same way the government wishes to wipe out the land.
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it's a secular state. I would expect no less than for the chilonim to wish to wipe out Torah the same way the government wishes to wipe out the land.
No one is arguing that some do not wish to. That is true, what is sometimes just as bad is when they try to "join them then beat them" as is said by having the government involved with strings attached they can even control the Torah world because essentially they know that it will not go away. Soo having some "Haredi" Knesset parties and throwing them a few bones here and there can and will get them to shut up while the leftists get away with what they plan. Including destroying Jewish communities while using the Yeshivas as hostages for the Haredi parties not to vote against them. This was and is the ultimatum given- either do not vote against it or get thrown out with then the Yeshiva students and the Yeshivot not getting $. Some of them figure, well it will pass anyway soo might as well make some $ for our Yeshivot and not have people have no $ at all.
It is a booby trap, we are saying we do not want and should not be in such situations.
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Yes, but tzedaka is a requirement. So even if one does not wish to pay into welfare, one has an obligation to give tzedaka. When I review Pirkei Avos again, I will find the same exact place, but it could also be in Orchas Tzadikim...It shouldn't be too hard to find a source in the Torah which say that all of our wealth belongs to Hashem and that everything in the universe comes from Him.
But from what I understand, one is not obligated to help someone who refuses to work.
Review those laws.
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But from what I understand, one is not obligated to help someone who refuses to work.
Review those laws.
They are studying for the intent that one day they will be teaching. It's like a student taking loans out for 12 years to pursue a PHD. Learning Torah IS a job, the same way research is. Unfortunately, in a secular state, learning Torah is NOT a job, even though it leads to teaching.
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They are studying for the intent that one day they will be teaching. It's like a student taking loans out for 12 years to pursue a PHD. Learning Torah IS a job, the same way research is. Unfortunately, in a secular state, learning Torah is NOT a job, even though it leads to teaching.
That's completely untrue on multiple counts. You are trying to find ways to justify the kollel system. Well, feel free to justify it to YOURSELF as you wish with whatever logic you choose, and feel free to give as much of your own money to that system as you want. But the discussion (the comment I replied to) centered on the halachic obligation of the people at large to fund a kollel system of an entire society of people who refuse to work and choose to learn full time. Or an individual to give to one such person. From what I understand, there is no such obligation.
Most are not in kollel to become teachers or any profession. Even the ones who are, training for a profession is not the same thing as being in a profession!
And since when do I pay for phd candidates? The institutions themselves offer the stipends. They make their profits on other things. People in law school and medical school take out LOANS. People getting masters degrees (usually what teachers get) take loans or get partially funded by their employer. So your logic doesn't even make sense, but again, feel free to go w what you like for yourself, I'm talking about an entire society of people demanding payment and support from the rest of a country while refusing to work. Then you really have no place to say anyone is required to do this.
Even receiving money to teach torah is a machloketh. But most poskim allow it (unlike Rambam) for certain circumstances. Those circumstances do not include taking money to LEARN Torah while not teaching it, either now (all of them) or in the future (most of them).
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That's completely untrue on multiple counts. You are trying to find ways to justify the kollel system. Well, feel free to justify it to YOURSELF as you wish with whatever logic you choose, and feel free to give as much of your own money to that system as you want. But the discussion (the comment I replied to) centered on the halachic obligation of the people at large to fund a kollel system of an entire society of people who refuse to work and choose to learn full time. Or an individual to give to one such person. From what I understand, there is no such obligation.
Most are not in kollel to become teachers or any profession. Even the ones who are, training for a profession is not the same thing as being in a profession!
And since when do I pay for phd candidates? The institutions themselves offer the stipends. They make their profits on other things. People in law school and medical school take out LOANS. People getting masters degrees (usually what teachers get) take loans or get partially funded by their employer. So your logic doesn't even make sense, but again, feel free to go w what you like for yourself, I'm talking about an entire society of people demanding payment and support from the rest of a country while refusing to work. Then you really have no place to say anyone is required to do this.
Even receiving money to teach torah is a machloketh. But most poskim allow it (unlike Rambam) for certain circumstances. Those circumstances do not include taking money to LEARN Torah while not teaching it, either now (all of them) or in the future (most of them).
I never said anybody was obligated to fund it. It's a mitzvah to fund it, but nobody has to. And for the record, the govenment loans millions to students to attend college etc., sometimes people get money from the government that they don't have to pay back (see FAFSA).
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I never said anybody was obligated to fund it. It's a mitzvah to fund it, but nobody has to. And for the record, the govenment loans millions to students to attend college etc., sometimes people get money from the government that they don't have to pay back (see FAFSA).
True, but 1) who said others agree with that and 2) perhaps the governmental claim for that can be that the $ they invest in schools will then come back to the system in much larger quantities by the taxes collected from the higher paying jobs (at least this can be the argument made by some). Soo it is an economic investment.
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True, but 1) who said others agree with that and 2) perhaps the governmental claim for that can be that the $ they invest in schools will then come back to the system in much larger quantities by the taxes collected from the higher paying jobs (at least this can be the argument made by some). Soo it is an economic investment.
Not everybody who gets free money for school ends up with a high paying job.
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Not everybody who gets free money for school ends up with a high paying job.
Okay, but it is an investment that statistically pays off. Its like buying shares in stocks. Not smart to only buy 1 or 2 or 10 stocks, better to buy many in bundles (like Mutual funds) because over time they will pay off. The argument can be made the same here.Although when looking at specifics their is much discussion that can be spoken and thought through about (if for example paying for any education or just specific education programs is the way to go- like nursing, specific in demand sciences etc.)
With Haredim you can make a similar argument, true, but wouldn't we want the Torah to be free from governmental influences? I'm not saying NOT to support Torah institutions. Actually the opposite, but their definitely are problems with the current system on many levels.
By the way I am opposed to many of the governmental waste in the BILLIONS of dollars with stupidity such as funding failed kibbutzim programs and business ventures, also in soo called "arts", media and other such "social" non-sense, but really parts of government supporting their own institutions and friends.
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I don't know what's going to end up happening in the end; what I do know is that Hashem is in charge.
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Well Jews in that land, "settlements", are not foreigners, that is their land. There is no "West Bank" or "Gaza", only Judæa and Samaria and that has been promise to Jews and legally too it is legitimate Jewish land. So why don't Arabs go back to the huge masses of undeveloped desert they love yet never develop except to rape them for oil that they can enslave the world?
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Well Jews in that land, "settlements", are not foreigners, that is their land. There is no "West Bank" or "Gaza", only Judæa and Samaria and that has been promise to Jews and legally too it is legitimate Jewish land. So why don't Arabs go back to the huge masses of undeveloped desert they love yet never develop except to rape them for oil that they can enslave the world?
Right, but I think you got the wrong message board.
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Right, but I think you got the wrong message board.
Sorry for that.
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Rabbi Kahane used to say that "The Haredim are IRRELEVANT!".
That used to be true in his era.
But now the Haredim are no longer irrelevant. Instead, shame to tell but they have actually turned in to ENEMIES of Hashem and His Torah!
Here Haredim proudly display a banner stating: "We will RATHER BE PUT TO DEATH than be conscripted for either Army Service or National Service"!
(http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=199846)
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Oy Vey... Looks like someone is a little cranky..
Do you really think that the Torah commands us to join an organization which is against Hashem and his laws? I think that if the Army wants to be able to tap into the Haredie population they need to clean up the organization. It sounds like it is better to not join the IDF if it means losing your Jewish identity...
I mean Yerusha makes it sound like the state of Israel is a Torah state... But reality is completely opposite.
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90% of Haredi Yeshiva and Kollel students no longer genuinely study Torah, but just while away the hours sipping coffee and gossiping in the Beish Midrash. And if you want to see a real killer, try and come between a Haredi and his coffee!
If R.Kahane was PM, he would immediately order a significant number of Haredim in to compulsory Haredi Army and National Service Work Batallions. And an equal number of Hillonim in to compulsory Jewish Education Units, where their zero-knowledge of Torah, Jewish and Zionist history would be reversed.
The current social situation in Israel is untenable for much longer, and being that neither Haredim nor Secularists are prepared to compromise one iota, a Heavenly decree could be propagated whereby they all get punished together as Jews, as happened in the Shoa, where no distinction in the gas chamber was made between Haredi or Secularist Jew.
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90% of Haredi Yeshiva and Kollel students no longer genuinely study Torah, but just while away the hours sipping coffee and gossiping in the Beish Midrash. And if you want to see a real killer, try and come between a Haredi and his coffee!
If R.Kahane was PM, he would immediately order a significant number of Haredim in to compulsory Haredi Army and National Service Work Batallions. And an equal number of Hillonim in to compulsory Jewish Education Units, where their zero-knowledge of Torah, Jewish and Zionist history would be reversed.
The current social situation in Israel is untenable for much longer, and being that neither Haredim nor Secularists are prepared to compromise one iota, a Heavenly decree could be propagated whereby they all get punished together as Jews, as happened in the Shoa, where no distinction in the gas chamber was made between Haredi or Secularist Jew.
What is your goal here, ma'am?
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I agree that Israel needs to educate the secular public with a minimal Jewish education... I also agree that those Charadie men who are not studying or teaching full time should serve in the army.
But I am a bit upset at the manner by which you refer to Jews who are for the most part keeping Torah as many of us cannot at this time...
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As can be seen here
http://rabbikahane.wordpress.com/2010/08/30/lag-baomer-rabbi-shimeon-bar-yochai-the-scholar-warrior/
the goal of Judaism is to produce a nation composed of Scholar-Warriors, not Scholars and Warriors.
Only when the Haredim become Warriors and the Hillonim become Scholars, will we have an Am Yisrael worthy of the name Yisrael = "Fighter for G-d"!
The very Geulah depends on this!
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Wonga shut your trap. I know this is you.
"The Haredim are IRRELEVANT!"
"90%"
"a Heavenly decree could be propagated whereby they all get punished together as Jews, as happened in the Shoa"
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90% of Haredi Yeshiva and Kollel students no longer genuinely study Torah, but just while away the hours sipping coffee and gossiping in the Beish Midrash. And if you want to see a real killer, try and come between a Haredi and his coffee!
Lol this is exaggeration to the point of absurdity. There are batei midrashim all over israel. Anyone can walk in and see for themselves that what he said is complete BS.
The only kernel of truth buried deep in there is that yes, some of the kollel men waste their time and are not really fit to be learning.
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Wonga shut your trap. I know this is you.
"The Haredim are IRRELEVANT!"
"90%"
"a Heavenly decree could be propagated whereby they all get punished together as Jews, as happened in the Shoa"
lol
I knew from his very first post.