JTF.ORG Forum
Torah and Jewish Idea => Torah and Jewish Idea => Topic started by: Dan Ben Noah on August 20, 2012, 04:06:47 AM
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Shalom
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I hope it reaches everyone who thinks of following Asher Meza and stop people from stepping into his trap.
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About time. I have been saying that Meza is not promoting true Torah values. As a Jew and someone as a Noahide should be repulsed.
I also told you that Meza wasn't born Jewish, in the article it says soo and has a link to this
"I wasn't trying to make a statement, but a statement was made," said Meza, a former Baptist preacher who converted to Judaism and studied to be a rabbi. "
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This shmutz-bag was held up here by some members a few months ago. Only after Chaim pointed out how much of a hater of Israel and how much he goes against Jewish tradition {claiming that the whole world should convert to Judaism} do some people see through this heretics ruse.
My name for this joker is 'Acher Metzora'... Roughly translated as 'The Other Leper'...
I want to know if he ever got Smicha, if so from whom, and that person should lose their ability to teach Torah...
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I wonder is his desire to mass convert has anything to do with his Hispanicness
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Well it was probably more influenced by the fact that he was a Baptist minister. Baptists are big into missionary work, and as Protestants, have no qualms about rejecting the greater Christian community based on their own independent interpretation of the Christian Bible, which is what Asher Meza is doing with the Mishneh Torah.
I do like his videos exposing Christianity, Islam, the black Hebros, and Chabad though. They are lashon ha-awesome.
You realize Lashon Hara is a aveirah, a transgression.... So you like Rabbis which engage in prohibited activity? Very strange... Maybe if he advised Jews to eat non-Kosher you would like him even more?
What he said about Chabad was not awesome, it was shameful... Even Chaim pointed out how evil and sick your Acher Metzora is... Do you just pick and choose those commandments which suit your desire? If he offends the people you offend then he is cool? What a joke...
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It is sickening that pukes like this Acher Metzora speak ill about good Jews when this punk is a convert who's understanding of Torah is sick and twisted and yet people like Dan Ben Noach hang on his every hateful and twisted word. He is about as bad as that German kid who thinks he runs JDL Germany and calls himself a Rabbi...
I know Chabad and what has been said about them is utter rubbish. Isn't it odd these neo-Jews are the ones who inspire the most hatred between Jews?
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It is irrelevant if Asher Meza is Jew by birth or by conversion. His actions of heresy and fraud are the issue. He is misleading Jews and righteous gentiles from true Judaism to his crazy distortion.
Also, there is a way to conduct discussion within Judaism with mutual respect and without strife.
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It is irrelevant if Asher Meza is Jew by birth or by conversion. His actions of heresy and fraud are the issue. He is misleading Jews and righteous gentiles from true Judaism to his crazy distortion.
Also, there is a way to conduct discussion within Judaism with mutual respect and without strife.
Amen... I hope that this putz gets the message that he is not wanted by the Jewish people...
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The stuff I was talking about was not lashon hara. It is not wrong to expose Chabad mystical doctrines any more than it's wrong for any Jew to expose the black Hebros or Christians. There are other people besides him doing this which I don't necessarily agree with everything they say. Asher Meza is wrong for the misuse of Mishneh Torah which this Yemenite rabbi is accusing him of along with his anti-Zionist sentiment, not for exposing Chabad. And I'm no follower of his, if I were I would not have brought this article to the forum.
There is nothing wrong with Chabad using Kabbalah, as it is a form of Chassidic Judaism and there are several strains of Chassidic Judaism {Breslov and Belz are two examples}. So your problem is with Chassidic Judaism in general? Or is it because some people claim that Chabad believes that their Rebbe was Moshiach {which as I have said many times does not represent the majority of Chabad Rabbis (and none of the Chabad Rabbis I know personally)}.
It makes sense that anti-Zionists would attack Chabad considering how much great pro-Zionist work the Rebbe engaged in. And Chabad today is a proud Zionist organization which encourages all Chabad members to visit or make aliyah to Israel. It is because of this that that troll from a couple months ago came here to besmirch Chabad... It is clear that most of the opposition to Chabad which came from Jewish quarters all came from anti-Zionist jews...
The Chabad organization is considered very helpful to Jewish causes around the world. It is because of Chabads being on the forefront of Jewish issues around the world which make them a target of many enemies of the Jewish people.
I really cant see any reason why anyone would stand against Chabad. They are an organization which goes to great lengths to bring Jews back into observance of the mitzvot. Just yesterday my Chabad Rabbi performed the mitzvah of Pidyen HaBen {Redemption of the Firstborn son} on me and we had a great feast in the afternoon {Seudah}... I love my Chabad Rabbis and there is no disinformation in this world which can make me speak anything against them.
http://www.aish.com/jl/l/b/Pidyon_Haben_-_Redemption_of_First_Born.html
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Yes but Meza is not attacking Chabad from an anti-Zionist perspective but because they are mystics and the Tanya is Jewish supremacist.
That is plain falsehood. The Tanya is not a Jewish supremacist book. That is pure garbage he was saying. Chabad also do outreach to non-Jews and they show great respect to all. That is the real reason he was attacking them- because they teach the 7 Mitzwoth Bnai Noah, which supposedly is an evil thing to do? You yourself are a Bnai Noah you should be outraged with the guy since he is attacking you for being a non-Jew. That is the true "Jewish supremacy"- (which is not even Jewish) that he is preaching.
Muman " And Chabad today is a proud Zionist organization which encourages all Chabad members to visit or make aliyah to Israel."
Actually the stance of the previous Rebbe was you either go to Israel and stay or you don't go to Israel at all, soo be careful when different people will twist this in their different ways (ether say see how anti-zionist he was because he did not even go to Israel once, or see how zionist he was in that he said one cannot leave Israel if they go there- but whatever I know a Chabad girl who was in Israel and then went back to hutzlaaretz.
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I'm sure that there are many good people in Chabad just as there are in many groups that aren't doctrinally sound.
LOL.... According to your opinion...
Chabad is full of Good Jews who keep the 613 commandments according to Shulchan Aruch...
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The Tanya is derived from the Talmud, as the quote you posted above points out... Actually portions of that Tanya are derived from King Solomons Proverbs/Mishlei...
http://www.kby.org/hebrew/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3582
The souls of the nations of the world, however, emanate from the other, unclean kelipot which contain no good whatever, as is written in Etz Chayim, Portal 49, ch. 3, that all the good that the nations do, is done from selfish motives. So the Gemara comments on the verse, "The kindness of the nations is sin,"— that all the charity and kindness done by the nations of the world is only for their own self-glorification, and so on.
http://www.kby.org/hebrew/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=3582
In order to explain this, we need to understand the nature of Avraham Avinu's chesed. King Shlomo says, "Charity will uplift a nation, but the kindness of nations is a sin." (Mishlei 14:34) The charity that Am Yisrael does uplifts it, but the kindness of the other nations is a sin. Why?
"Chesed" in Judaism does not flow just from mercy and compassion for the other, but from desire to benefit and help another. "Chesed" - doing good, is a goal to itself, because it is an expression of going in the way of Hashem, as Chazal say: "Just as he is merciful, you also be merciful; just as He does kindness, you also do kindness." (cf. Shabbat 133b) Through doing kindness, a person connects to his Creator, and therefore there is a natural, inner desire, to do kindness with others. Thus, Avraham Avinu seeks to do chesed even though there were no guests outside; he aspires to express his inner desire to go in the way of Hashem. This kind of chesed is only in Judaism. However, the nations of the world who do kindness do so only because of a feeling of compassion and mercy to help the other, and about this it says, "the kindness of nations is a sin" - this is not ideal and complete chesed.
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I hope it is not a shock to some people that the Talmud does mention that Jews have a special relationship {even a special soul} compared to the non-Jew...
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/192,2172582/Can-you-describe-the-Jewish-soul.html
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Enough you two! Muman, you started this with your very first post! Dan, I don't understand your negative stance on mysticism? It has been part of Judaism from the beginning, maybe not all sect but some! And some mysticism from Israel has been past down in secret, including the seven Noachide laws!
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Enough you two! Muman, you started this with your very first post! Dan, I don't understand your negative stance on mysticism? It has been part of Judaism from the beginning, maybe not all sect but some! And some mysticism from Israel has been past down in secret, including the seven Noachide laws!
I didn't start this thread.... I responded to it..
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Enough you two! Muman, you started this with your very first post! Dan, I don't understand your negative stance on mysticism? It has been part of Judaism from the beginning, maybe not all sect but some! And some mysticism from Israel has been past down in secret, including the seven Noachide laws!
Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet. The 1st books of Kabbalah are attributed to Adam, and others are attributed to Abraham...
Look into the concept of the Torah existing for 2000 years before the creation of the world.... Which comes from..... The Talmud...
The Midrash tells us that Hashem created the Torah two thousand years before He created the universe (Midrash Beraishis Rabbah, 8). When the time came to create the universe, Hashem used the Torah as a blueprint. Just as a builder places walls where the blueprint says to put them, and doors where the blueprint says to put them, Hashem created the Torah and used that as a blueprint. (Midrash Beraishis Rabbah 1:1)
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I didn't start this thread.... I responded to it..
No! Muman your first response was directed at Dan!
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No! Muman your first response was directed at Dan!
Not exactly true.... I only reacted when Dan started his attack on Chabad...
My first response on this thread was just agreeing that Acher Metzora has gone 'off-the-derek' so to speak..
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,63320.msg556998.html#msg556998
In response to this:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,63320.msg557029.html#msg557029
I do like his videos exposing Christianity, Islam, the black Hebros, and Chabad though. They are lashon ha-awesome.
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Not exactly true.... I only reacted when Dan started his attack on Chabad...
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,63320.msg556998.html#msg556998
In response to this:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,63320.msg557029.html#msg557029
OK, but this seemed directed at two members"This shmutz-bag was held up here by some members a few months ago."
And I have to say this Meza is a total piece of garbage!
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I have no problem with people questioning or even not approving of Chabad. But when it becomes a broken record and the person repeats the same incorrect accusations against them, then I begin to get upset.
I have clearly said that Meshichism in Chabad is wrong. The issue of whether the Rebbe is Moshiach is mute. There is no argument that could make me believe that he was the Moshiach at this time. My experience is that Chabad doesn't teach this, and of all the Chabad Rabbis I know they don't believe it themselves. The issue, which I have explained before, is concerning Sparks of Moshiach. This concept I understand and I believe as part of my emmunah {we are to believe that Moshiach can come at any moment}.
AS I am a descendant of Chassidic Jews I naturally have an affinity to Chassidic beliefs. I have not seen any Chassidic belief which opposes the Tanakh or the Talmud, and while Minhag {customs} may be different between various Jewish sects this is acceptable. There are differences in Minhag between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews also, and each one keeps their minhagim...
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Proverbs 14:34 isn't talking about souls of individuals, but the deeds of nations. As Rashi comments, it's talking about regimes that rob from one group in order to dispense "kindness" to others.
Study a little more and you will discover the true nature of the difference between the Jewish nation and the nations of the world.
We are a special nation... This cannot be taken from us...
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The interpretation of that verse in Mishlie goes far beyond what Rashi points out:
http://www.shemayisrael.co.il/parsha/review/archives/haazinu59.htm
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All this proceeds from a judgement whose goodness is intense, whose purpose is that the light of holiness and goodness will grow stronger and increase.
In regard to entire nations, every good deed carried out by an evil nation strengthens the universal evil. "The mercy of nations is a sin" (Proverbs 14:34) [because they act solely out of self-interest (Bava Basra 10b)].
The nation of Israel, on the other hand, is "a righteous nation, keeping good faith" (Is. 26:2). And the Holy One is exacting with those who surround Him. This is true of the entire nation of Israel: "Only you have I known from all the families of the earth; therefore, I will visit upon you all your sins" (Amos 3:2).
When the greater part of a source is good, this indicates that really in its inner being it is entirely good. Every sin that comes from such a source actually contains in the wealth of its inner being great light and vast salvation.
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I assume that you would agree that Judaism at one time was united, and sects only came into being after the Jews were dispersed. So in the beginning there were no sects. If this is true, how could mysticism, if it was there in the beginning, only have been a part of Judaism for some? If it was authentic Torah it would have been passed down with the rest of the Torah along with the written Scriptures and the Talmudic literature. The fact is that what is referred to as Jewish mysticism today is a later innovation that was not passed on by the prophets. Any secret knowledge that was passed on by them has been lost. Also the Noahide laws are not secret. They are part of the oral tradition and the covenant with Noah can be seen in scripture. Mysticism and Kabbalah are different from Oral Torah. Kabbalah is based on Zohar and various other texts that came into being much later.
Not exactly true... There are many sources of Kabbalah, not just the Zohar... And these texts are discussed in Talmud. The facts concerning the mystical nature of the Torah are that not everyone was privy to learning them. The start of studying Kabbalah was after a man turned 40 years old.
There are many mystical passages in Talmud and Medrash.... Why don't you believe the Talmud?
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Special nation doesn't mean superior souls. If this is the case, Ezekiel wouldn't have included Noah and Job in the list of people who could have saved themselves by their righteousness, because, as the Tanya puts it, Noah and Job were only righteous because of selfish motives.
In fact Noah was not on as high of level as Jews are. While he was 'the most righteous' at his time he did not pray for the well-being of the world as our father Abraham prayed for the residents of Sodom and Amora.
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Actually Dan (I glimpsed through your quote from the Tanya, while I myself don't adhere to it I need to point this out)
You brought "The kindness of the nations is sin" This is from the Tannach- Prophets. Not even from the Talmudh (which one can claim people made up). I think it is talking about in general terms of nations. Not necessarily each individual within the nation. In simple terms you can say each nation has its own interests of which it is working for. Don't rely on the "kindness" of nations because everyone does things for their own interests.
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and sects only came into being after the Jews were dispersed.
Dispersed when? I'm talking about before the second Temple was destroyed.
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But according to the Tanya Noah and Job's righteousness would be because they are self-seeking. Do you believe this is the case?
Ask a Chabad Rabbi before claiming XYZ on their text regarding this because we do not see this as you say.
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Here are the excerpts from the relevant portions of Talmud Bavra Basa 10b:
Rabban Johanan b. Zakkai said to his disciples: My sons, what is the meaning of the verse, Righteousness exalteth a nation, but the kindness of the peoples is sin?
R. Eliezer answered and said: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation:' this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel one nation in the earth? But 'the kindness of the peoples is sin': all the charity and kindness done by the heathen is counted to them as sin, because they only do it to magnify themselves, as it says, That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savor unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and of his sons. But is not an act of this kind charity in the full sense of the word, seeing that it has been taught: 'If a man says, — I give this sela for charity in order that my sons may live and that I may be found worthy of the future world, he may all the same be a righteous man in the full sense of the word'? — There is no contradiction; in the one case we speak of an Israelite, in the other of a heathen.
R. Joshuah answered and said: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation,' this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel, one nation on the earth? 'The kindness of peoples is sin': all the charity and kindness that the heathen do is counted sin to them, because they only do it in order that their dominion may be prolonged, as it says, Wherefore O king, let my counsel be acceptable to thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thy iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, if there may be a lengthening of thy tranquility. Rabban Gamaliel answered Saying: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation': this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel, etc. 'And the kindness of the peoples is sin:' all the charity and kindness that the heathen do is counted as sin to them, because they only do it to display haughtiness, and whoever displays haughtiness is cast into Gehinnom, as it says, The proud and haughty man, scorner is his name, he worketh in the wrath ['ebrah] of pride, and 'wrath' connotes Gehinnom, as it is written, A day of wrath is that day. Said Rabban Gamaliel: We have still to hear the opinion of the Modiite. R. Eliezer the Modiite says: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation': this refers to Israel of whom it is written, Who is like thy people Israel, one nation in the earth. 'The kindness of the peoples is sin': all the charity and kindness of the heathen is counted to them as sin, since they do it only to reproach us, as it says, The Lord hath brought it and done according as he spake, because ye have sinned against the Lord and have not obeyed his voice, therefore this thing is come upon you.R. Nehuniah b. ha-Kanah answered saying: 'Righteousness exalteth a nation, and there is kindness for Israel and a sin-offering for the peoples.' Said R. Johanan b. Zakkai to his disciples: 'The answer of R. Nehuniah b. ha-Kanah is superior to my answer and to yours, because he assigns charity and kindness to Israel and sin to the heathen.' This seems to show that he also gave an answer; what was it? — As it has been taught: R. Johanan b. Zakkai said to them: Just as the sin-offering makes atonement for Israel, so charity makes atonement for the heathen.
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What the Tanya does is expound on the principles of the Jewish sources. You may disagree with it, but you should look into the sources before you criticize it...
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"Also the Noahide laws are not secret."Quote from Dan. Did you know our country was built off of them?
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Anyway.... We are not going to reach an agreement on this tonight. Dan is entitled to believe what he wants. Each of us has a responsibility to honestly search the sources and using our experience be able to decide which ideas to pursue.
I don't care if anyone doesn't accept Kabbalah or mysticism as it is not essential for the observance of the mitzvot. What is important is for Jews to perform the commandments which were given to us at Sinai...
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Muman- "Just as the sin-offering makes atonement for Israel, so charity makes atonement for the heathen."
Soo the Talmudh concludes that charity is good for the heathens.
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After the Jews were exiled after the destruction of the Second Temple, only one sect survived, the Pharisees, which has become Orthodox Judaism. They passed down the Oral Torah. All Orthodox Jews have kept this. However, not all orthodox Jews have a mystical tradition. This is not because mystical secrets were only passed down to "some" sects (just as the Oral Torah was not only passed down to "some") but because it was invented during the Hasidic movements in the west and spread. All claims that it comes from the Talmud is extrapolation and reading it into the Talmud, similar to how Muslims say Islam was taught from the very beginning.
This is not true... Do some reading of the Talmud and Medresh before you make these comments.
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Muman- "Just as the sin-offering makes atonement for Israel, so charity makes atonement for the heathen."
Soo the Talmudh concludes that charity is good for the heathens.
That is not the question.... The basic premise is that the nations kindness is different than the idea of Chesed..
Are you aware that the Torah was offered to all the other nations before it was given to the Jewish people?
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After the Jews were exiled after the destruction of the Second Temple, only one sect survived, the Pharisees, which has become Orthodox Judaism. They passed down the Oral Torah. All Orthodox Jews have kept this. However, not all orthodox Jews have a mystical tradition. This is not because mystical secrets were only passed down to "some" sects (just as the Oral Torah was not only passed down to "some") but because it was invented during the Hasidic movements in the west and spread. All claims that it comes from the Talmud is extrapolation and reading it into the Talmud, similar to how Muslims say Islam was taught from the very beginning.
There was three sects! And one was connected to the Hasidic! your telling me none of those teaching made it out after the Temple was destroyed?
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From this I'm not picking up the same ideas that the Tanya is pushing. What I see is an evolution of sinful nations in a Proverb into Jewish supremacy with the Tanya, similar to the way we have shown before on the forum that a verse in Job about repentance evolved into reincarnation among the Chasidim.
You are not familiar with enough sources to make these comments..
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Good night.... This topic is going nowhere {while I can provide many more examples which prove the point that the Talmud does suggest that the Jewish soul is different {not necessarily superior, but beloved by Hashem} from the soul of the nations.
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We know this based on Oral tradition from the Jews--not through mystical doctrines like Kabbalah. Oral Torah/Talmud and Kabbalah/mysticism are 2 different things. Chasidic Jews pretend that their modern mystical doctrines come from the Talmud, but that's just like Christians pretending Jesus can be found in the Torah/Prophets. It can only be done with a stretch.
Continue making things up.... You think it gets you somewhere? Not likely...
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Dan, you are a neo-phyte and you attempt to speak like a Talmid Chocham.... I really have little respect for such an inflated ego. You can follow whatever cochamamie rabbi you like but just don't go around claiming he is THE ONLY truth....
Chassidic Jewery has kept the Jewish people alive for many centuries. You cannot come around an defame our rabbis and expect Jews to sit quietly. I for one will not...
You are not even a Noachide and already you have some screwed-up beliefs. Thank G-d you are not a Jew!
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Dan, you are a neo-phyte and you attempt to speak like a Talmid Chocham.... I really have little respect for such an inflated ego. You can follow whatever cochamamie rabbi you like but just don't go around claiming he is THE ONLY truth....
Chassidic Jewery has kept the Jewish people alive for many centuries. You cannot come around an defame our rabbis and expect Jews to sit quietly. I for one will not...
You are not even a Noachide and already you have some screwed-up beliefs. Thank G-d you are not a Jew!
MUMAN! Totally uncalled for!! Really!
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I'm sorry to everyone about this stupid thread!! Asher is probably laughing his pants off right now!
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The sects were the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots. The only one that survived were Pharisees. They were not connected to the Chasidim. The Chasidim arose much later in Europe.
There was the one!
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I'm sorry to everyone about this stupid thread!! Asher is probably laughing his pants off right now!
What is the harm in this thread?
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What is the harm in this thread?
Our own people attacking each other!
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Our own people attacking each other!
That only makes this place more interesting to newcomers, which is what we want.
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This shmutz-bag was held up here by some members a few months ago. Only after Chaim pointed out how much of a hater of Israel and how much he goes against Jewish tradition {claiming that the whole world should convert to Judaism} do some people see through this heretics ruse.
Actually many of us already knew that.
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In this article Mori Bar-Ron obliterates the ignorance and arrogance spread by this asher Meza character.
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It is irrelevant if Asher Meza is Jew by birth or by conversion. His actions of heresy and fraud are the issue. He is misleading Jews and righteous gentiles from true Judaism to his crazy distortion.
Also, there is a way to conduct discussion within Judaism with mutual respect and without strife.
True.
And true.
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Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet. The 1st books of Kabbalah are attributed to Adam, and others are attributed to Abraham...
That's a real mind-bender. You are saying "Judaism" existed before Jews did? And pre-Jew Judaism was mystical. Come on, now.
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That's a real mind-bender. You are saying "Judaism" existed before Jews did? And pre-Jew Judaism was mystical. Come on, now.
How did Noah know the flood was coming?
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The Tanya is taking the Proverbs out of context because they are talking about "souls" which is not mentioned in the Proverbs verse. In the beginning of the part from the first chapter of Tanya, it talks about every individual Jew whether they are good or wicked has a certain type of soul. So this goes down to the individual and not just nations as a whole.
I believe that Tanya and the pre-existing beliefs and attitudes that led to its eventual creation by the tremendous scholar who authored it, were most likely influenced and motivated by the type of gentile the lubavitch sect directly experienced on a day-to-day and year-to-year basis. And so naturally this group extrapolated this type of gentile to the entire gentile world because they didn't experience anything else. Believe me, those days were not pretty and the sick european gentiles were absolute garbage who tormented the Jews constantly. That's an undeniable fact. And I believe that has a lot to do with the directional flow of the chabad philosophy.
I'm not a tanya guy and I'm not praising or condemning it here, but I think that those who do condemn it or condemn some of the contents, are perhaps missing the bigger picture of how those beliefs came about and developed over time and what the chabad people were dealing with. The tanya was not created in a vacuum, and historical circumstances certainly come to influence ways of thought and new types of thinking that originate in history.
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How did Noah know the flood was coming?
God spoke to him. The definition of "Judaism" is not: 'Any time God speaks to man"
PROPHECY is "when God speaks to man." Judaism is something else which can include prophecy within it. It simply does not make sense to say Noah was practicing Judaism. Especially considering the fact that he was a gentile! (but even if we imagined that on some parallel universe he was a Jew, it still wouldn't make sense).
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That's a real mind-bender. You are saying "Judaism" existed before Jews did? And pre-Jew Judaism was mystical. Come on, now.
You have heard that the Torah was.used as a blueprint for creation... You also have heard that Abraham kept the entire Torah even before it was given at Sinai. Thus the spiritual aspect of Torah does not only exist from Maattan Torah.
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For those not familiar with these concepts let me provide some examples:
http://ohr.edu/1290
Dear Rabbi,
Please give me a clue about how the Patriarchs found out the details of the Torah before it was given at Sinai.
Dear Mordechai,
In G-d’s promise to give the Land of Israel to Isaac and his offspring, G-d explained the reason is "Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and observed My safeguards, My commandments, My decrees, and My Torahs" (Gen. 26:5). Rashi explains that "My Torahs" (plural) refers to the fact that Abraham kept both the Written and Oral Torah; "My decrees" refers to laws that are not based on human logic; "My commandments" refers to laws dictated by human morals; and "My safeguards" indicates that Abraham upheld even Rabbinical enactments aimed at guarding Torah law.
Rabbi Chaim of Velozhin in Nefesh HaChaim explains that just as Mankind can reach scientific conclusions through intellectual investigation, so too can Mankind reach spiritual conclusions through spiritual contemplation. If a person is sensitive enough, it is possible to reach even the hidden, esoteric depths of the Torah. This is what Abraham did. Through probing the wonders and marvels of the world, Abraham built up an awareness of G-d that eventually led to a complete and absolute understanding of His will.
Rabbi Naftali Zvi Yehuda Berlin (referred to by the acronym "Natziv") adds a beautiful dimension to this idea. He writes that Sarah also arrived at this level of keeping the entire Torah, even before meeting Abraham. However, Sarah did so in a somewhat different way. While Abraham came to an absolute awareness of G-d through contemplation of nature, Sarah attained this awareness through introspection into her own soul. Sarah's sensitivity was so attuned that she used her own spiritual essence to come to an understanding of the mitzvot.
So, Abraham kept the Torah through the external wonders of nature and Sarah kept the Torah through the internal wonders of her soul. In a sense Abraham was keeping the Torah "from the outside in" and Sarah was keeping the Torah "from the inside out"! In this way they forged complementary paths that would serve as gateways for their offspring, as well as for Jews of all future generations, to find G-d and keep His Torah.
http://www.ravkooktorah.org/TOLDOT58.htm
Toldot: Abraham Kept Mitzvot
Why are practical mitzvot so central to Judaism? Why is it not enough just to believe in the Torah's central tenets and teachings?
When famine struck, Isaac considered leaving the Land of Israel. But G-d commanded Isaac to remain in Israel. He allayed his fears, promising him:
"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars of the sky, and grant them all these lands.... Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My decrees, and My laws." (Gen. 26:4-5)
Abraham kept G-d's commandments?
Indeed, the Sages interpreted this verse literally. They wrote that the Patriarchs fulfilled the precepts of the Torah, even before their revelation at Sinai centuries later.
Fifth-century scholar Rav Ashi made an even more audacious claim. He asserted that Abraham even observed the mitzvah of eiruv tavshilin — a rabbinically-ordained ritual that enables one to prepare for the Sabbath when a holiday falls out on a Friday (Yoma 28b).
Observing Eiruv Tavshilin
A scholar once commented to Rav Kook that this Talmudic statement clearly cannot be taken at face value. How could Abraham know what the rabbinical courts would decree a thousand years in the future? The Sages must have intended to convey a subtler message: Abraham's philosophical mastery of the Torah was so complete, his grasp of the Torah's theoretical underpinnings so comprehensive, that it encompassed even the underlying rationales for future decrees.
Rav Kook, however, was not taken with this explanation. In his response, Rav Kook emphasized that the Torah's theoretical foundations cannot be safeguarded without practical mitzvot. It is impossible to truly internalize the Torah's philosophical teachings without concrete actions.
This is the fundamental weakness of religions that rely on faith alone. Without an emphasis on deeds, such religions retreat to the realm of the philosophical and the abstract. They abandon the material world, leaving it unredeemed. The Torah's focus on detailed mitzvot, on the other hand, reflects its intense involvement with the physical world.
Yaakov, our father, studied Torah for 14 years at the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever:
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http://www.torah.org/learning/legacy/5770/vayeitzei.html
Our Sages tells us he spent those fourteen years studying Torah in the yeshivah of Shem and Eber. Furthermore, they point out that the verses in this week's portion actually contain an allusion to this detour.
When Jacob spent the night in Bethel, he dreamed he saw a ladder rising into the heavens, and he saw angels descending and ascending. This spectacular prophetic vision, which revealed the pattern of Jewish history for thousands of years, was Jacob's initiation into his role as our third and final patriarch. The Torah prefaces this dream by telling us that Jacob "slept in that place."
Why is this necessary? If he was dreaming, then surely he must have been sleeping. Our Sages see in this an oblique reference to the missing fourteen years. When Jacob "slept in that place," it was the first time in a very long while that he actually lay down to sleep. As long as he had been in the yeshivah of Shem and Eber, however, he had studied without interruption, dozing off in his chair only when fatigue overcame him. For fourteen full years, he had studied so intensely that he had not known the taste of sleep, and only now, when he resumed his travels, did he presume to go to sleep.
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G-d spoke to him. The definition of "Judaism" is not: 'Any time G-d speaks to man"
PROPHECY is "when G-d speaks to man." Judaism is something else which can include prophecy within it. It simply does not make sense to say Noah was practicing Judaism. Especially considering the fact that he was a gentile! (but even if we imagined that on some parallel universe he was a Jew, it still wouldn't make sense).
I understand he was not a Jew! But G-d spoke to him! Was he a mystic or a witch? Or just a nut job?
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Dan,
You are entitled to your opinion. But what you state is obviously not the truth. You may find one or two fakakta so-called heretical rabbis who spout the kind of falsehood you are attempting to spread... But I can show you hundreds of Rabbis who train Jews of the highest calibre who would tell you you are going off the wrong path. But you will never listen to me because you have established yourself as an opponent of mine. But I am sure, as I am alive, that your version of Judaism WILL NEVER be accepted.
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I'm not comparing Judaism to other religions, I'm just comparing various twists on Judaism.
No, you have been besmirching normative Orthodox Judaism as taught at most Yeshivas and Synagogues.
BUT Acher Metzorah knows better....
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Ive had enough of this foolishness... I am just surprised that there are not more real Jews here to stand up for our beliefs. Sometimes I wonder if I have stumbled on Psuedo-Noachide Task Force by mistake.
Imagine if Rabbi Kahane stumbled into this thread. How great would the response be against this kind of insult against our mystical tradition?
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Most in the western world perhaps, but not all, and mysticism is not taught by the Yemenite communities. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. Just as in the days of Elijah there were very few Jews who followed Elijah and most combined Baal worship with Judaism, there is a similar case today. People are waking up to this and that is why rabbis like Rabbi Bar-Hayim are out there saying the same things about the Zohar and certain mystical doctrines. When I first joined this forum I was shut down for even mentioning a hint of this message, and was once actually banned temporarily. But now more people are starting to take a rational approach to Judaism, and I believe this must happen as a precursor to the Mashiach, that more and more Jews will look at Judaism not only as religious doctrines to be played around with in the brain but also as a true, practical, moral, reasonable lifestyle in line with the faith and lives of their forefathers.
In my opinion you should be banned.... But lets just keep out of each others way, ok... It is odd you only selectively believe those things your 'rational' mind tells you to believe. While the entire enterprise of Emmunah and Bitachon are based on non-rational reasons. Maybe you can explain some of those mystical Talmud portions for us... Then again, please don't.... Some topics non-Jews are not permitted to learn.
What chutzpah for an am-haaretz to make such comments... Judaism is just fine without your innovations... We have believed in the coming of Moshiach for 1000s of years. Also why do you believe in MOshiach? He is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the Torah, and only alluded to in Prophets... Thats a rhetorical question... Don't answer it...
The way to bring Moshiach was and always will be, Torah and Mitzvot....
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You can see there are stories, agadtot in the Gmara that the Tanaim and Amoraim, of sages practicing magic, and there is discussion about mystical world of demons and angels and magical creatures.
So, you can't say the Kabbalah is based on nothing from Judaism. But I think that while the Gmara simply uses sometimes these agadtot as example and allegory to halachic principles, Kabbalah has become for some a source of ruling halacha which is wrong, Jews are not supposed to learn halacha from external sources let alone from kookoo ones.
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However it seems there is a tradition of magic and mysticism since before the exile. So, it seems that this sort of things were at least tolerated by the Sanhedrin.
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I also think that Judaism would be better off without any of that kabbalah magic and witchcraft, especially of the recent generation when instead of being a hidden secrete it became popular and open. But the thing that we really should avoid is internal wars over this. And I don't think you can get a single lubavitcher to abandon the tanya and the mysticism by attacking his belief with ridicule and contempt, it will only create strife.
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I want to make clear to some of you , that I’m not psychic and not a prophet! Or a witch! I don’t know if some of you think this from some of my posts. A lot of the time I am joking around! If some of you wonder how I can guess things its because I pay attention to what the trolls say, and how they say it!
I would like to add, modern day Kabbalah has been turned in to a joke! It should be kept a secret! These people use it for there own personal gain! And it does not take much to use it for evil!
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Dan, you are a neo-phyte and you attempt to speak like a Talmid Chocham.... I really have little respect for such an inflated ego. You can follow whatever cochamamie rabbi you like but just don't go around claiming he is THE ONLY truth....
I was reading this thread last night and then when I went to go look up neophyte in the dictionary, I actually fell asleep. A day later, I have a better vocabulary.
You are not even a Noachide and already you have some screwed-up beliefs. Thank G-d you are not a Jew!
These are really awful things to say about someone. How can you, without basis, say "you are not even a Noahide" to a non-Jew? Is that not evil speech?
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You have heard that the Torah was.used as a blueprint for creation...
Of course I've "heard" this. The Torah. Not Judaism.
You made up something new here.
(by saying Judaism existed before Jews and was a religion of mysticism... or something).
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For those not familiar with these concepts let me provide some examples:
Here we go again.
You are providing "details" of things which do not support what YOU CLAIMED.
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I understand he was not a Jew! But G-d spoke to him! Was he a mystic or a witch? Or just a nut job?
That's a false dichotomy. Rambam is the ultimate rationalist in Jewish history, he is the antithesis of a mystic, and he holds of the concept of prophecy.
Learn Moreh Nevuchim and get back to me.
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In my mind, the historical circumstances don't excuse passing off something like this as mystical "secret knowledge" that was handed down from time immemorial.
Lol, that's what almost all kabbalah/chassidus passes itself off as. But you know what? Some Torah commentaries too. They make new interpretations of existing verses and then they say that was there the whole time, it has just been 'revealed' now. That's a valid path of textual scholarship. It's referred to as Biur. It's NOT Perush.
When they say it's "from sinai" or "secret knowledge" what they mean in this context (or what a rational person should understand them as saying) is: "Our interpretation is the key one, it has always been right there in the text but it took our brand of chassidus/philosophy to tease it out of the text and realize it was there, and it fits within our overarching system of thought perfectly."
Chabad makes a lot of outlandish claims on their Torah learning - for instance I saw a video where the Lubavitcher rebbe claimed that due to chabad chassidus we "finally understand" the para aduma. At first I was shocked, but then I applied the above dictum and I can live with that very easily - I can choose to disagree or stick to other interpretations that have come over the ages from Torah scholars.
What you're saying is likely the case, but then that means the doctrine was never revelation preserved within Judaism but a response to something that is outside Judaism. Their circumstances may be understandable but that doesn't mean their resulting doctrines should be seen as true or binding on all Jews.
Like almost all hashkafic discussions (with some extreme exceptions such as belief in God's unity and some of the 13 principles elucidated by the Rambam), it's of course not necessarily true, and definitely not binding on all Jews. A loyal righteous Jew could live out a long life of many years and devote himself to Torah study and mitzvot, and if he never picked up or viewed a single page of Tanya in his lifetime, it wouldn't take anything away from him. That's true of many texts, there are so many out there you cannot possibly be bound to follow them all. And there is a clear difference between halacha and hashkafa, between what is required to follow (Jewish law) and what is intellectual/philosophical pursuits where people have freedom of thought. Of course I understand Tanya can be enriching for people but that requires a pretty deep expertise in all other areas of Jewish texts and thought, and only then can one deal properly with some of the deep kabalah in it. And mass marketing Tanya is probably destructive IMO. But that's a side point.
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I'd like to add that this reminds me of the Nation of Islam. Because of black slavery, some blacks came up with the idea that all white people were made in a test tube by the evil scientist Yakub. Ok so maybe there was white persecution of blacks in history but that doesn't mean you pass off black supremacy as truth ordained by G-d.
Except that chabad was using existing holy texts and reading their interpretation into the existing texts. It's very different from Dr. yakub. Of course, some of the texts they used (ie, zohar) have questionable origins to begin with, so I'm modeh bemiktzas to you a little bit on this point.
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Most in the western world perhaps, but not all, and mysticism is not taught by the Yemenite communities. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. Just as in the days of Elijah there were very few Jews who followed Elijah and most combined Baal worship with Judaism, there is a similar case today. People are waking up to this and that is why rabbis like Rabbi Bar-Hayim are out there saying the same things about the Zohar and certain mystical doctrines. When I first joined this forum I was shut down for even mentioning a hint of this message, and was once actually banned temporarily. But now more people are starting to take a rational approach to Judaism, and I believe this must happen as a precursor to the Mashiach, that more and more Jews will look at Judaism not only as religious doctrines to be played around with in the brain but also as a true, practical, moral, reasonable lifestyle in line with the faith and lives of their forefathers.
It could very well be that you are right.
And just as I have freedom of thought to think you are correct (because I do agree with your line of thought here in this post), Muman has freedom of thought to think you are incorrect, and that's fine. I think freedom of thought is sometimes a hard concept for people to accept especially religious people. But Muman, you should not take offense at the above suggestions just because you are more mystically inclined! Obviously, you think otherwise and you think people who think along the lines of Dan and I, that our ideas will never 'catch on' and will not become more popular. Ok, so what's the harm?
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Jewish rationalism takes as axiomatic that there is a G-d and that he spoke through the prophets. The rationalism refers to the approach by which we interpret what they said and apply it to our lives. In other words, if I believe G-d spoke to Moses, I want to use reason to determine what G-d most likely wanted me to take from that revelation. I would not make up a whole new set of dogmas to help understand it, I'd try to look at it logically. Since I want to be as sure as possible about the truth of that revelation, I would not want later innovations to get in the way of understanding the true intent of that revelation.
On the other hand, you can never really get the "true intent" (TM) though. Even perush doesn't quite do the job because we have not written down Moshe's original perush in written form word for word as he gave it in the desert and during the travels of the Jews.
This was most likely preserved orally which by its very nature is a more liquid and less formalized format, and ancient aspects of the Talmud alluding to it are mostly legal in nature rather than interpretive. (actually even the ancient interpretive methods are employed for legal conclusions moreso than hashkafa or philosophical interpretations!) There's much more to say on this topic but hopefully I made the point I was trying to bring up.
Perush is still only an approximation no matter how much we try to use logic, and even our logic will change as we learn more about the world and find out new things, so there is always a bit of "biur" influence in what we say about certain verses. We can't help but to inform our opinion based on other knowledge we have, and which previous generations might not have had.
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You can see there are stories, agadtot in the Gmara that the Tanaim and Amoraim, of sages practicing magic, and there is discussion about mystical world of demons and angels and magical creatures.
You do raise an important point.
On the other hand, the Rambam says point blank that demons do not exist. I tend to agree with him on that. So in general, I don't pay much attention to statements about demons when they come up in my learning.
Others I'm sure feel differently on that subject.
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Of course I've "heard" this. The Torah. Not Judaism.
You made up something new here.
(by saying Judaism existed before Jews and was a religion of mysticism... or something).
I didn't say that Judaism existed before Abraham... But my point was that the idea of the Torah existing for 2000 years before creation comes from the Talmud, not a mystical source...
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KWRBT,
I have no problem with people who disagree with mysticism.... My problem is in the insulting comparisons of Chassidic Judaism to Nation of Islam and Black Hebros. He has repeatedly said these insults in a way which was not considerate, and I became defensive.
I apologize for some of what I said, but I do believe that Dan could say things in a more considerate manner...
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KWRBT,
You said that Chabad Rebbe figured out the meaning of Para Adumah? I have never heard of that. Could you please find a reference to it? I could ask one of my Chabad Rabbis about it but I would like to wait for your answer...
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All the Kabbalah and Chassidus is assuming that the Jew is following the mitzvot which are applicable in the absence of the Beit HaMikdash. There is nothing in these that is essential for a Jew to know, only things which will keep him interested in the study of Hashems ways as learned from mystical sources.
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I didn't say that Judaism existed before Abraham...
... But you did, though.
Direct quote: "Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet."
You claimed that Judaism existed before Jews did.
But my point was that the idea of the Torah existing for 2000 years before creation comes from the Talmud, not a mystical source...
I know that the point made in THIS POST and supported by your citation in THIS POST was about Torah existing before creation (however one understands that). But you presented these statements to defend your ORIGINAL POST where you claimed that Judaism existed before Jews, the post which I disputed originally. And that is why I now commented on this defense to tell you that what you cited/quoted here does NOT support your original assertion.
Now I guess this is your way of admitting that.
What you are now trying to say is that mysticism dates back very far?
You will have a hard time trying to prove that because there is no textual evidence to support such a claim. The main mystical text (zohar) emerged in the 1300's. Attempting to claim that zohar's statements go back to time immemorial - is nothing more than speculation that cannot be proven. More likely, certain concepts in there have historical precedent or passed on by mesorah, but certainly not the TEXT itself, and certainly not all of the ideas in it.
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KWRBT,
You said that Chabad Rebbe figured out the meaning of Para Adumah? I have never heard of that. Could you please find a reference to it? I could ask one of my Chabad Rabbis about it but I would like to wait for your answer...
Well I didn't say he figured out the meaning, I said that he claimed to have figured out the meaning. Or more precisely, he claimed that chabad chassidus figured out the meaning. That is an outlandish claim, IMO. I saw this in a youtube video. The rebbe was giving a speech and said about how chabad chassidus enabled us to understand the para aduma. I would have to search for it to find it.
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... But you did, though.
Direct quote: "Mysticism has been a part of Judaism since before there were Jews on the planet."
You claimed that Judaism existed before Jews did.
I know that the point made in THIS POST and supported by your citation in THIS POST was about Torah existing before creation (however one understands that). But you presented these statements to defend your ORIGINAL POST where you claimed that Judaism existed before Jews, the post which I disputed originally. And that is why I now commented on this defense to tell you that what you cited/quoted here does NOT support your original assertion.
Now I guess this is your way of admitting that.
What you are now trying to say is that mysticism dates back very far?
You will have a hard time trying to prove that because there is no textual evidence to support such a claim. The main mystical text (zohar) emerged in the 1300's. Attempting to claim that zohar's statements go back to time immemorial - is nothing more than speculation that cannot be proven. More likely, certain concepts in there have historical precedent or passed on by mesorah, but certainly not the TEXT itself, and certainly not all of the ideas in it.
Abraham was not a Jew in the sense that he was not at Sinai... It is said that he kept the Torah.... It is also said that Noah knew what the Kosher animals were despite the Torah not having been given. My point is that the Torah, in a spiritual/mystical sense, existed before the creation of the Jewish people.
I don't know why you insist I am saying something other than this.
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Well I didn't say he figured out the meaning, I said that he claimed to have figured out the meaning. Or more precisely, he claimed that chabad chassidus figured out the meaning. That is an outlandish claim, IMO. I saw this in a youtube video. The rebbe was giving a speech and said about how chabad chassidus enabled us to understand the para aduma. I would have to search for it to find it.
I have never heard of such a thing. All the Chabad Rabbis teach that the meaning of Parah Aduma is a Chok, which means that there is no RATIONAL MEANING to it...
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It is believed that Abraham wrote the Sefer Yetzirah, a Kabbalistic text which pre-dates the Zohar...
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/238,487/Who-wrote-Sefer-Yetzirah-the-Book-of-Creation.html
According to many authorities (Rabbi Saadya Gaon; Bachya; Kuzari; Zohar; Pardes, and others) Sefer Yetzirah was written by Abraham our patriarch. Other sources seem to indicate that it was written by Rabbi Akiba. Some have suggested that the ideas were those of Abraham and were passed down from generation to generation until Rabbi Akiba transcribed them.
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You are attempting again to twist my words KWRBT... I don't know why you seem to resort to the same kind of arguing, arguing a straw man argument.
I said that the Torah was the blueprint for creation. I said that the concepts of the Torah {Kashrut, Shabbat, Tefillin, etc.} existed before the Jewish people were even in existence {assuming that the Jewish people became a people once they left Mitzrayim}. The mystical concepts which the Torah includes existed before the Jewish people were 'born' at Mt Sinai.
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It is a fact that Sefer Yetzirah existed before the writing of the Talmud because the Talmud mentions this Sefer Yetzirah:
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/271,488/Is-Sefer-Yetzirah-the-Book-of-Creation-mentioned-in-the-Talmud.html
Is Sefer Yetzirah (the Book of Creation) mentioned in the Talmud?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus
Yes. The Talmud Sanhedrin 65b reports that the Talmudic sage Rava created a person and sent it to Rabbi Zeira. Rabbi Zeira spoke to it but it did not reply (because it did not have a human soul it was unable to speak). Rabbi Zeira said to it: “You are a creation of one of my colleagues; return to your dust!” Rashi ad loc. explains that Rava used the teachings of Sefer Yetzirah to create this being. (Rabbi Zeira in turn used the same teachings to destroy the man, uttering the same letters as did Rava but in reverse order [Ben Yehoyada].)
The Talmud continues with another tale: Rav Chanina and Rav Oshaya would sit together every eve of the Sabbath and delve into Sefer Yetzirah. A calf would be created for them and they would eat it.
Rashi (ibid 67b) explains that they would form various permutations of the Divine Name with which He created the world and a calf would therefore come into being.
So there you go.
See also Jerusalem Talmud 7:13.
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You are attempting again to twist my words KWRBT... I don't know why you seem to resort to the same kind of arguing, arguing a straw man argument.
He would never do that.
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Abraham was not a Jew in the sense that he was not at Sinai... It is said that he kept the Torah.... It is also said that Noah knew what the Kosher animals were despite the Torah not having been given. My point is that the Torah, in a spiritual/mystical sense, existed before the creation of the Jewish people.
I don't know why you insist I am saying something other than this.
Because you did say something other than this. It's in your own words.
it doesn't make sense to say avos or anyone before sinai practiced judaism, even if you want to say they followed Torah principles and laws in some ways. Still not the same thing.
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You are attempting again to twist my words KWRBT... I don't know why you seem to resort to the same kind of arguing, arguing a straw man argument.
Don't you get the fact that it doesn't make sense to accuse me of a straw man when I quoted you directly in your own words?
Now, what are these "mystical aspects" you speak of? Do you know that there are different ways to interpret verses and you have no proof of how Jews in the midbar viewed these things?
Citing the old age of mysticism as a proof of authority really doesn't help you. Especially when the text doesn't emerge until the 1300s and some key beliefs of kaballah are plainly contradicted. In the writings of the gaonim
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It is a fact that Sefer Yetzirah existed before the writing of the Talmud because the Talmud mentions this Sefer Yetzirah:
I fail to see how that matters. Sefer yetzirah doesn't contain modern kabala in it.
2. If sefer yetzirah existed before the writing of the talmud, what does that mean about sefer yetzirah? Please elaborate on this point (if there is one).
3. Bear in mind, the talmud wasn't written probably until at least the 700's and some say even later. Why is this relevant?
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Ignoring for a moment the fact that sefer yetzirah does not contain zohar or modern kabalah in it, I pose the following:
Does something become true because it's old?
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He would never do that.
Great post. So mature and intellectual.
So tell me, how do I twist muman's words by quoting him directly?
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Just because the Talmud mentions something they call "Sefer Yetzirah" (book of creation) and then many years later a book pops up titled Sefer Yetzirah doesn't mean it's the original Sefer Yetzirah. The same situation exists with the Sefer HaYashar, which is mentioned in the Tanach books of Joshua and Samuel. There are books written much later claiming to be that book but they aren't the original.
That could be. But can you really be sure it's not the original?
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I am sorry to restart an old topic but I am constantly in completely shock over Asher Meza and his work- which I completely disagree on. I was happy to find this statement by the Yemenite rabbi who was not afraid to speak up. Asher Meza and Yosef Eliyah may call themselves rabbis all they want, but I would have to see proof of that. There is no shame in being a convert at all either. It's a beautiful thing to become Jewish, and while Yosef Eliyah is open about his conversion... the other gentleman that the Yemenite rabbi speaks about dodges the born-Jewish question. No big deal, people have a right to privacy, and no one should ever remind someone who converts that they were once not Jewish. So no one should embarrass him with the conversion question. My only problem with it is why deny a personal halachic giyur on oneself while openly making videos telling gentiles they can perform their own conversions (without the authority of a real Beis Din) and to not follow the Noach laws (rather than referring them to the real conversion process?). I just don't get it. Is halahcic giyur only good enough for him and not for the other gentiles who are misguided enough to "convert" themselves or through his unrecognized mass "conversions" that his organization performs every once in a while in the ocean? (I have seen pictures, these people dip in the ocean and are told their conversions will not be recognized but they get a certificate declaring them Jewish)
I saw a video where this man was being interviewed and the interviewer asked him "what is your ethnic background?" he answers "hispanic". Interviewer asks him "how long can you trace your lineage" he answers "I was born in New Jersey and my family is from Columbia but we have no family tree that I can trace. If anything we are Jews by Halacha". Interviewer then asks "we you raised a practicing Jew though?" he replies "no". The interviewer obviously has no clue. So, it's ok for someone who converts to be super private about their status. It's the right of each and every person who does giyur. BUT let's be honest, there are times where one must be honest about their giyur status. For example, when signing up kids into a Jewish school, you need to show proof. When your kids want to get married and you have to fork over proof of Jewishness, when you want to make Aliyah to Israel. But what about rabbis? Are they under the obligation to be open about their conversion status? A rabbi is supposed to be open to the public, doing kiruv, being open- must they be open if they had converted? Especially if someone who converted wants to be a "conversion rabbi" and wants to preside over conversions... Is this even possible?
In any events, Meza and his colleague Yosef Eliyah are both "rabbis" of the same congregation and here is the Dor Deah "shul" that they operate. It has no chairs at all, none.. instead it has islamic prayer mats. And they even call it a Jewish mosque, you can see Yosef Eliyah in the video. Many moslims are even commenting about how this is how Jews should pray...praising "Allah". It's one thing to say "this is what Synagogues used to look like for Mizrahi Jews 100 years ago" than to say "this is a Jewish mosque in the praise of allah". Plenty of more disturbing videos too. But I'll stop myself.
Now, how are these two "rabbis" again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPCWXFT1_k8&list=UUxiS0f6jQiko6gqDTVQR89Q&index=6
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I suspect they mimic other aspects of Islam as well, some in secrete, because they are few and weak.
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I suspect they mimic other aspects of Islam as well, some in secrete, because they are few and weak.
they do. This Eliyahu fellow over and over says "allah hu ........." and other such non-sense. Its too bad we got "converts" like these who just go around mocking, yes mocking Torah scholars, mocking Noahides, mocking authentic Judaism that they claimed to convert to. Then when one questions their practices they right away block you from their channels.
This group originally had 3 of them. One of the 3 officially converted to Islam. The other 2 claim to be practicing Judaism while doing what they are and teaching things AGAINST Judaism.
* Note she was NEVER Jewish to begin with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAuTwy_TYOE