JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks on June 25, 2013, 06:00:09 PM
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Baruch Hashem, this is the fourth anniversary of the date (June 25, 2009) when the L-rd took the two hideous satanic monsters, Michael Jackson and Farrah Fawcett, yimach shemam vezichram, from the mortal coil and settled them in their new home, Gehenom.
Do I have any regrets about how it went down? Well, it would have been nice for the disgusting transsexual sodomite Jackson to have died of rectal cancer also, but G-d knows best how to strike down beasts. ;D
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
WFTMPTC
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I was wondering what it could be so I realized what happened 4 years ago.
The Jewish date was the Rebbe's Yahrzeit. Today is the 17 Tammuz, a sad day in Jewish History. If celebrating the death of evil people, the Jewish date is more appropriate.
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Why is Farrah Fawcett's death good like Michael Jackson's death? Or do you just love to hear about female celebrities dying?
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Jewish History
Joshua Stops The Sun (1273 BCE)
On the third of Tammuz of the year 2488 from creation (1273 BCE), Joshua was leading the Jewish people in one of the battles to conquer the Land of Israel. Victory was imminent, but darkness was about to fall. "Sun," proclaimed Joshua, "be still at Giv'on; moon, at the Ayalon valley" (Joshua 10:12). The heavenly bodies acquiesced, halting their progress through the sky until Israel's armies brought the battle to its successful conclusion.
Rebbe's Yahrtzeit (1994)
The Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of righteous memory (b. 1902) passed away in the early morning hours of the 3rd of Tammuz, of the year 5754 from creation (1994).
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How was Farrah Fawcett evil?
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How is Farrah Fawcett evil? I can understand about Michael Jackson because he molested young boys, but not someone who starred in an iconic tv show.
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I was wondering what it could be so I realized what happened 4 years ago.
The Jewish date was the Rebbe's Yahrzeit. Today is the 17 Tammuz, a sad day in Jewish History. If celebrating the death of evil people, the Jewish date is more appropriate.
Interesting... June 25, 2009 is 3 Tammuz...
http://www.hebcal.com/converter/?gd=25&gm=6&gy=2009&g2h=1
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I think WFTMPTC's reasoning is that Farah Fawcett left her husband Lee Majors, and then took up with Ryan O'Neil
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I think WFTMPTC's reasoning is that Farah Fawcett left her husband Lee Majors, and then took up with Ryan O'Neil
Did they get divorced first?
Anyway, divorce for goyim is not like for Jews. Under Noahide Law, they can be married and divorced by just moving in and out.
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Divorce is not a sin... Not according to the Jewish religion.
According to the Wiki page it appears they were officially divorced...
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I don't know much about her character, but if she was a Christian, you take a oath before the lord that "death do you part".
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I don't know much about her character, but if she was a Christian, you take a oath before the lord that "death do you part".
Don't tell me Christianity has no concept of divorce... That would be as bad as islam.
The concept of Divorce is even plainly written in the Torah:
When a man takes a wife and is intimate with her, and it happens that she does not find favor in his eyes because he discovers in her an unseemly matter, and he writes for her a document of severance, gives it into her hand, and sends her away from his house. She leaves his house and goes and marries another man -- Deuteronomy 24:1-2.
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Don't tell me Christianity has no concept of divorce... That would be as bad as islam.
I'm pretty sure they aren't supposed to get divorced. And in all honesty I don't think it's really that bad of a deal for everyone... unless there is some really bad stuff going on, society views divorce as no big thing, but it causes a lot of hurt and pain in the world...
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I'm pretty sure they aren't supposed to get divorced. And in all honesty I don't think it's really that bad of a deal for everyone... unless there is some really bad stuff going on, society views divorce as no big thing, but it causes a lot of hurt and pain in the world...
Catholicism is against divorce. So they have "annulments" to pretend the marriage never took place. It's pretty gay if you ask me.
I don't think all Christians hold by that.
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Don't tell me Christianity has no concept of divorce... That would be as bad as islam.
The concept of Divorce is even plainly written in the Torah:
Simple answer, don't get married if you're not in love. Over time there may be children involved, so get over your animal desires, and be a man...
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Obviously the Torah and Jewish wisdom believes that there is a valid reason for dissolving a marriage otherwise it would not have made such a commandment as 'giving the get'.
http://www.aish.com/jl/l/m/103423494.html
Unlike some religions, however, which do not permit divorce, Judaism recognizes the necessity under certain circumstances. Indeed, following the proper procedure for divorce is one of the 613 mitzvahs in the Torah.
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How was Farrah Fawcett evil?
She cheated on and dumped her loyal, devoted, and hardworking husband Lee Majors to shack up with the sleazeball Ryan O'Neill for the rest of her life.
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Even if divorce is okay, which I don't think it is, she cheated on him before she actually divorced him, as I understand correctly.
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Catholicism is against divorce. So they have "annulments" to pretend the marriage never took place. It's pretty gay if you ask me.
I don't think all Christians hold by that.
Is that how it goes?
It's pretty gay when people don't get their facts right.
An annulment in Catholicism seems surprisingly similar to an annulment in Judaism. But I'm no expert on either. Maybe you know different.
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It's pretty gay when people don't get their facts right.
You got him there! :laugh: :::D
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Is that how it goes?
It's pretty gay when people don't get their facts right.
An annulment in Catholicism seems surprisingly similar to an annulment in Judaism. But I'm no expert on either. Maybe you know different.
You can anull vows in Judaism but that's not to dissolve a marriage.
If a woman says "I will not wear perfume.", then perfume is forbidden to her just like pork is. But her father (If she's married, then her husband.) hears it, he can remove the vow. The general way a vow is removed (For men also.) is to do Hatarat Nedarim (We do this every year before Rosh Hashana or before Yom Kippur.
In fact, that is the topic in the beginning of this week's Torah portion (The beginning of it was already read this afternoon at Mincha.).
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Even if divorce is okay, which I don't think it is, she cheated on him before she actually divorced him, as I understand correctly.
In that case she was liable for the death penalty for breaking the Noahide Laws (The one against sexual immorality which includes adultery, incest, male homosexuality, and incest.). If she was Jewish, it would also be one of the 3 cardinals sins that you can't even break to save human life (Idolatry, murder, and sexual immorality.). If a Jewish woman did that, she would also be liable for the death penalty. But you need 2 witnesses and a court authorized to put people to death which we don't have today.
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You can anull vows in Judaism but that's not to dissolve a marriage.
If a woman says "I will not wear perfume.", then perfume is forbidden to her just like pork is. But her father (If she's married, then her husband.) hears it, he can remove the vow. The general way a vow is removed (For men also.) is to do Hatarat Nedarim (We do this every year before Rosh Hashana or before Yom Kippur.
In fact, that is the topic in the beginning of this week's Torah portion (The beginning of it was already read this afternoon at Mincha.).
You could have explained all that instead of insulting her religion like you did.
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Farah Fawcett wasn't Jewish. And we don't have the death penalty for female adulterers in America, so this kind of talk is irrelevant.
Bullcat3 is a good long time member here, who is Catholic. So B.Y., you can get your point across without taking a dig at her religion.
You can anull vows in Judaism but that's not to dissolve a marriage.
If a woman says "I will not wear perfume.", then perfume is forbidden to her just like pork is. But her father (If she's married, then her husband.) hears it, he can remove the vow. The general way a vow is removed (For men also.) is to do Hatarat Nedarim (We do this every year before Rosh Hashana or before Yom Kippur.
In fact, that is the topic in the beginning of this week's Torah portion (The beginning of it was already read this afternoon at Mincha.).
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I have got to express my feeling on this matter. What happened between Farah Fawcet and Lee Majors was a personal issue. I do not take peoples 'hearsay evidence' very seriously. In divorces people have said things which are not true. I know about divorce and it is a messy business. There often are not very clear 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Indeed the children of divorce are hurt, as I was hurt when my parents divorced when I was 8 years old. But sometimes it is for the best, and this is why the Torah has permitted divorce since the invention of marriage.
I do not know what caused the divorce of Farrah but I will not rush to judgement and curse her without some pretty clear evidence of her wrongdoing. It is easy to always blame the woman in these cases, but I do know that in many cases the man is at fault even if he doesn't acknowledge it at the time.
This is why I object to lumping Farah and MJ in gehinnom and I will suggest that others think carefully whether they are cursing someone for ulterior motives. The Torah and Talmud are replete with advice to hold ones tongue in from uttering harsh judgement against another person. If this topic is of interest to anyone I could start a thread in the Torah section going over the reasons we do not judge others harshly, but I will not go into it at this time.
My opinion of MJ is that he got what he was seeking... His pedophilia and his antisemitism are signs he was troubled. The whole Jackson family is messed up very badly, and I hope that they will have peace some day.
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I have got to express my feeling on this matter. What happened between Farah Fawcet and Lee Majors was a personal issue. I do not take peoples 'hearsay evidence' very seriously. In divorces people have said things which are not true. I know about divorce and it is a messy business. There often are not very clear 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Indeed the children of divorce are hurt, as I was hurt when my parents divorced when I was 8 years old. But sometimes it is for the best, and this is why the Torah has permitted divorce since the invention of marriage.
I do not know what caused the divorce of Farrah but I will not rush to judgement and curse her without some pretty clear evidence of her wrongdoing. It is easy to always blame the woman in these cases, but I do know that in many cases the man is at fault even if he doesn't acknowledge it at the time.
This is why I object to lumping Farah and MJ in gehinnom and I will suggest that others think carefully whether they are cursing someone for ulterior motives. The Torah and Talmud are replete with advice to hold ones tongue in from uttering harsh judgement against another person. If this topic is of interest to anyone I could start a thread in the Torah section going over the reasons we do not judge others harshly, but I will not go into it at this time.
My opinion of MJ is that he got what he was seeking... His pedophilia and his antisemitism are signs he was troubled. The whole Jackson family is messed up very badly, and I hope that they will have peace some day.
It's not speculation, but fact, to state that Fawcett dumped her husband for another man (that she never even married).
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Should I research the issue or can you provide a source which will explain this, because I have no idea..
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Not that I want to get into 'celebrity gossip' or anything... I found this People Magazine article which discussed the topic...
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20074383,00.html
August 20, 1979 Vol. 12 No. 8
Why Farrah Split
By Sue Reilly
The Rumors of Romeos Are Wrong, Snaps Farrah Fawcett: It Is Liberation That Made Her Drop Her Majors
"I just can't go from city to city trying to pretend that Lee and I are carrying on business as usual. I remember trying to tell one reporter what I make for Lee's dinner and bursting into tears. I can't lie to people. I'm not pretending that I'm someone I'm not, or that I'm someone I used to be."
It was at the beginning of the national tour for her new movie, Sunburn, that the new just plain Farrah Fawcett went bravely and painfully public with the announcement of her separation. At 32, Farrah—sometimes giddily and confidently, but often tearfully—was going it alone. After months of denials, she suddenly declared the breakup of Hollywood's bionic couple. After 11 years she had shorn Lee Majors, 39, from her life as well as her name.
Farrah will move out of their French provincial mansion in Bel Air. "I want to give both of us a little time to try to adjust to what has happened," she explains. "I don't know if we will ever get back together again, and that scares me," she adds, biting her lip. "I feel so confused."
The timing of the official declaration (by her manager-mentor, Jay Bernstein) stunned the swarming press as well as Paramount Pictures, which is distributing Sunburn. Dismayed studio flacks feared a ploy by the Machiavellian Bernstein to hype Farrah rather than her intermittently entertaining comedy-mystery (which he co-produced).
Farrah has a more heartfelt explanation. "When Lee married me, he married a very compliant person who just wanted to cook his meals, clean his house and be dependent," she says sadly. "I still like to cook his meals and clean his house, but I'm not dependent anymore. I feel so bad for Lee. I care about him so much, and he is trying to be understanding and protecting."
Indeed, shortly after her separation statement, a stoic Majors flew to Atlanta for a one-day reunion mid-tour. As he touched down, Farrah grew yet more anxious. Lee, clutching a bottle of champagne and a single yellow rose (reminiscent of the 13 he sent her after their first date), whisked her off to dinner at the home of Rankin Smith. He is owner of the Atlanta Falcons football team and their investment partner in a local sports complex. The Fawcett-Majors had been together only four weeks in the past 18 months. Despite their estrangement, Lee escorted Farrah—via her private passkey elevator—to her Hyatt Regency tower suite and stayed the night.
The next morning Farrah's hairdresser and makeup woman inevitably—but affectionately—joshed her. "Guess why I'm so relaxed and happy?" Farrah teased back. The mood lasted through much of a long, hot day, as Farrah and Lee dutifully toured the Falcons' training camp. The three-limo entourage of Farrah's 11 ladies-and-gentlemen-in-waiting followed, but discreetly turned their backs as the couple kissed farewell. "I love Farrah and I always will," Lee declared later. "There is nothing I would like better than for us to work out our problems." Farrah, off on another leg of her publicity trip, to New York, said only, "I'm so uncertain, but I feel good and honest about myself."
The marriage may be a casualty of success—Farrah's. The University of Texas beauty queen met Lee in 1968, two weeks after her parents drove her to Hollywood. She ordered a Scotch and Coke, then nervously excused herself to get sick in the ladies' room. Majors was already an established ABC star on The Big Valley, and when the ex-football player later scored as The Six Million Dollar Man (reviewers rapped him as a bionic robot), Farrah was his cheerleader. A housewife as much as a model (Ultra Brite, Noxzema and Wella Balsam), Farrah's contracts stipulated that she be home in time to cook dinner for the man she fondly called "a big grump-head." Soon, though, she went on to Charlie's Angels, that famous poster (the biggest-selling in history)—and super-celebrity. At the peak of their fame, each deserted TV.
Then, as she waxed, Lee waned. The Norseman, his anticipated springboard to movie stardom, belly-flopped last year, and none of his three films since has even been released in the U.S. As Fawcett contemplated their split, Majors was in Manila waiting to start a new movie, only to hear that the financing hadn't come through. Farrah, meanwhile, has kept her tenuous hold on the public. Her debut as a lead in Somebody Killed Her Husband last year earned her decent notices and, she says, "I learned a lot." Its box office failure didn't reduce her price—$750,000 per film—and in Saturn 3, since wrapped, she has gained further star clout: approval of director, script, cinematographer and co-stars (she chose Kirk Douglas).
Farrah has still not recovered fully from the backlash of her clamorous, possibly disloyal walkout from Charlie's Angels after one year. (Co-producer Aaron Spelling sued her for $7 million for breach of contract and the settlement calls for her to play three more episodes this season.) "The whole lawsuit almost sank me," she sighs. "The industry was furious with me and hostile because I was a TV sex symbol who wanted to be an actress. People thought I was really pretentious, and for months no one would touch me." She lost Foul Play to Goldie Hawn and Coma to Genevieve Bujold, Farrah claims. "I was poison," she recalls. "But I just wasn't going to give up."
A new Fawcett emerged from the ordeal. "I was brought up to be a nice, quiet, polite person," she notes, "and I have always had a hard time being forceful. My natural inclination is to defer to others, particularly men. So I was not concentrating on women's liberation, and people have tried to make me feel very guilty about it, especially the sex symbol thing. What's funny," she continues, "is that I have become a different person. You can't survive that kind of crushing attack and still be an innocent. I had to grow up and I did." The first halting steps toward self-reliance, however, may also have been the first ones out of her marriage. "I started to rely less and less on Lee and my other advisers," she reports. "I began to think about what I wanted, and needed, for myself. That meant saying an occasional discouraging word and giving up the continual smile," Farrah smiles. "Sometimes it surprises even me."
But it also causes trauma, and the prospect of divorce produces guilt for a lapsed Catholic. "Lee thinks that because I don't need him as much anymore I don't want him, and that isn't true," she says. "Our relationship has got to be different because I am different. But it's so hard for him to understand." Tears well in her emerald eyes, and she starts to weep softly before adding: "I'm not sure I do myself. In some ways I'm much happier than I used to be when all I ever thought about was pleasing everyone else. I came dead last."
Her marriage faltered because of that sloughing off of Total Womanhood, Farrah insists, not taking on a different man. She pooh-poohs persistent rumors of "my supposed affair" with the youngest son of TV's Dick Van Patten, tennis ace / actor Vince Van Patten. "I can tell you that if I were fooling around, no one would find me," she replies to one reported tryst in a Palm Springs motel. "Those rumors used to embarrass me terribly, and I just didn't know how to cope," she shrugs. "Vince and his parents are some of my best, kindest, most wonderful friends and I'm sorry for the embarrassment these stories have caused them."
Fawcett's budding sense of authority extends to her $10 million contract with Fabergé to promote their not ragingly successful line of "Farrah" beauty products. "There are about 7,000 shampoos on the market, and they all basically have the same ingredients," she admits. "Our gimmicks are minerals, the protein keratin and some vitamins. I think they'll help, although we haven't come up with scientific proof yet." Fabergé carped that she didn't give her all, but, explains Farrah: "I couldn't say, straight-faced, 'Don't ya just love me, and you'll love my shampoo.' " With new packaging and a new yet unfinalized product name, she is recommitted, and next month will launch the line in Egypt and Israel, of all places.
Farrah is putting equal energy into acting. "I did not attend the Royal Academy for 12 years, but I am a professional trying to be the best actress I can be and to do the best scripts I get," she asserts. "No one sends me the scripts that Faye Dunaway or Jane Fonda are considered for, but you have to remember that Jane started out doing lightweight stuff like Barbarella."
The analogy, fair enough in itself, suggests Fawcett's new sense of strength and direction. "The last four years have been filled with so much pain, so much hurt," she muses. "There were days when only my discipline got me through. I don't drink, use drugs or depend on any kind of crutch. I've just got me. And sometimes, with all the negative energy coming toward me, I want to rent a billboard and say, 'Hey, listen, folks, I'm not such a bad person.' " Then the insecure Farrah is replaced by the new assured Farrah, and she says proudly, "I'm getting where I want to go. I'm determined to survive."
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Farah Fawcett wasn't Jewish. And we don't have the death penalty for female adulterers in America, so this kind of talk is irrelevant.
Bullcat3 is a good long time member here, who is Catholic. So B.Y., you can get your point across without taking a dig at her religion.
I wasn't even addressing her. I was talking to Ephraim Ben Noah. I just made a random comment. I do remember hearing that divorce was illegal in Ireland because of Catholicism and only recently did they legalize it. She decided to reply on her own. I didn't have a point to make until she asked about "annulment" in Judaism.
Nedarim are vows. Jews don't even have wedding vows. At real Jewish weddings, we don't say "I do" the way goyim do. We say brachot. The man acquires his wife by saying "Harei At..." and giving her a ring and she accepts the ring. She does not give him a ring.
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I wasn't even addressing her. I was talking to Ephraim Ben Noah. I just made a random comment. I do remember hearing that divorce was illegal in Ireland because of Catholicism and only recently did they legalize it. She decided to reply on her own. I didn't have a point to make until she asked about "annulment" in Judaism.
Nedarim are vows. Jews don't even have wedding vows. At real Jewish weddings, we don't say "I do" the way goyim do. We say brachot. The man acquires his wife by saying "Harei At..." and giving her a ring and she accepts the ring. She does not give him a ring.
The anulment process for Roman Catholics is a long and ardgious process that usually ends in the people requesting one being rejected by the church... It's mostly used in cases of incompatibility where people are married for a very short time and find they have no interest in eachother sexually or otherwise... It's an expensive and and embarasing process that most devorced people will just not put themselves through... There is nothing " Gay" about it unless the man ran off with another man :::D The problem with your post is that you phrased it like a 10 year old and if you are who I think you are your better educated than that post would lead people to believe.
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael on June 25, 2013, 11:36:40 PM
Catholicism is against divorce. So they have "annulments" to pretend the marriage never took place. It's pretty gay if you ask me.
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I say gay like if people say "That's so gay.". I didn't mean it literally.
Gay doesn't even mean homosexual. It means happy. So either way people use gay, it's not the real meaning of the word.
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I say gay like if people say "That's so gay.". I didn't mean it literally.
Gay doesn't even mean homosexual. It means happy. So either way people use gay, it's not the real meaning of the word.
Yes I know all that... The bottom line is the fact that you don't seem to have any real understanding on how the anulment process works for Roman Catholics... Not that you need to but it would be as if I tried to comment on some of the higher points of Jewish Religion when I did not have a full understanding of the issue.
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And this somehow makes her righteous, Muman? I'd like to see you valiantly defend the honor of someone who leaves you because their career takes off and they no longer have a place for you in their life.
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And this somehow makes her righteous, Muman? I'd like to see you valiantly defend the honor of someone who leaves you because their career takes off and they no longer have a place for you in their life.
I did not say she was 'righteous', just that I do not base my opinions based on gossip columnists... You are entitled to judge people to whatever standard you expect. I try to avoid making such judgments lightly. I am willing to judge MJ harshly because he was responsible for his downfall, at least his drug habit should have been a sign he was not in good mental shape. But on personal issues such as divorce and intimate issues of marriage, I do not believe everything I read.
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http://www.newsmax.com/US/michael-jackson-abuse-files/2013/06/30/id/512693
Report: Secret FBI Files Detail Michael Jackson Abuse
Sunday, 30 Jun 2013 10:00 PM
By Greg Richter
The King of Pop was in danger of losing his throne in the early 1990s as allegations began to swirl that he had abused underage boys at his Neverland Ranch.
Now, a former aid to a private investigator to the stars says his boss was hired by Michael Jackson to find victims and pay them to keep quiet, reports London's Sunday People.
According to the tabloid, "secret FBI files" show abuse of up to 24 young boys, including one well-known actor. Jackson was caught with another boy watching pornographic movies, and one was fondled in Jackson's private theater while his mother sat a few rows ahead oblivious to what was happening.
Though the files include the alleged victims' names, Sunday People did not reveal any of them except for Wade Robson, now a 30-year-old choreographer who has sued the Jackson estate. Robson alleges he was sexually abused by Jackson between the ages of 7 and 14.
The publication also did not identify the former aid who supplied the documents.
Jackson hired famed private eye Anthony Pellicano and paid out $35 million to keep the boys and their parents from going to police or the media, the former aid told Sunday People.
Pellicano is currently serving a 15-year sentence on an unrelated racketeering and wiretapping case, but the aid said the FBI seized Pellicano's records, including the Jackson ones involving Jackson's payoff. It was copies of those records that the British tabloid saw.
“Our reports painted the picture that Jackson was a serial child predator,” the aid said.
The FBI declined to comment.
Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com http://www.newsmax.com/US/michael-jackson-abuse-files/2013/06/30/id/512693#ixzz2XltbGLPI
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I wasn't even addressing her. I was talking to Ephraim Ben Noah. I just made a random comment. I do remember hearing that divorce was illegal in Ireland because of Catholicism and only recently did they legalize it. She decided to reply on her own. I didn't have a point to make until she asked about "annulment" in Judaism.
Nedarim are vows. Jews don't even have wedding vows. At real Jewish weddings, we don't say "I do" the way goyim do. We say brachot. The man acquires his wife by saying "Harei At..." and giving her a ring and she accepts the ring. She does not give him a ring.
It was not taken personally. Just let your hatred for Catholics be founded in reality.
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As many of our resident experts on Catholicism do, I tried to inform myself by 'reading'. I know wiki is often a great source referenced here. ::)
So, here is what I read...
How Does Annulment Fit In?
While the Torah does not mention the concept of annulment, the rabbis in the Talmud interpreted the laws of marriage as allowing a beit din to intervene and annul a marriage if the husband has acted in a way that causes harm (physical or mental) to his wife. This could be done without the husband's participation or approval and over his protestations. In the Talmud the cases cited are specific: where a woman is coerced into the marriage upon threat of violence to her person or where a woman is kidnapped and forced to marry a man against her will.
In the early Middle Ages we find rabbinic rulings that an annulment can be decreed by a beit din if “defects” in the husband were found after the marriage took place. If the husband suffered from a condition (mental illness, abusive behavior, impotence, or a physical defect) at the time of the marriage and the wife was unaware of the condition when they were married, she can seek an annulment from the beit din.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Divorce/Contemporary_Issues/Agunot/Annulment.shtml?p=2
Sounds very similar to a Catholic annulment to me.
Just saying! I'm no expert on either.
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It was not taken personally. Just let your hatred for Catholics be founded in reality.
I don't hate Catholics. I have nothing personal against Catholics. American Catholics are some of the better people in this country and have faced the same situations as Jews in the same neighborhoods. I just don't agree with Catholicism since it is not my religion and besides for the fact that it's not my religion, Jews will never forget how the Catholic Church historically acted towards Jews such as during the Crusades and Inquisitions. I don't hold American Catholics responsible for that.
I once heard a Catholic on Arutz 7 say that he sees the Pope as his religious leader but he doesn't see him as his leader when it comes to how the Pope is Anti-Israel (This was about 8-10 years ago. I think it was a caller to the Tovia Singer Show who said it.). He said this is because in addition to the Pope heading the Church, he's also head of state of the Vatican and the Pope, like almost every head of state in the World is Anti-Israel and Pro-Arab.
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As many of our resident experts on Catholicism do, I tried to inform myself by 'reading'. I know wiki is often a great source referenced here. ::)
So, here is what I read...
How Does Annulment Fit In?
While the Torah does not mention the concept of annulment, the rabbis in the Talmud interpreted the laws of marriage as allowing a beit din to intervene and annul a marriage if the husband has acted in a way that causes harm (physical or mental) to his wife. This could be done without the husband's participation or approval and over his protestations. In the Talmud the cases cited are specific: where a woman is coerced into the marriage upon threat of violence to her person or where a woman is kidnapped and forced to marry a man against her will.
In the early Middle Ages we find rabbinic rulings that an annulment can be decreed by a beit din if “defects” in the husband were found after the marriage took place. If the husband suffered from a condition (mental illness, abusive behavior, impotence, or a physical defect) at the time of the marriage and the wife was unaware of the condition when they were married, she can seek an annulment from the beit din.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Divorce/Contemporary_Issues/Agunot/Annulment.shtml?p=2
Sounds very similar to a Catholic annulment to me.
Just saying! I'm no expert on either.
I never heard of that. I just heard about vows as stated in this week's Torah portion (Numbers 30). You can look it up and see what I'm talking about. Ask Muman for the way Jews follow it. It doesn't say in the Written Torah about annulling such vows. That part is only in the Oral Torah. Heretical Jews don't believe that these vows can be annulled so the rabbis would have heretical Kohanim in the Temple vow to do the proper Temple service according to Halacha (According to The Oral Torah) since they knew that those Jews that rejected the Oral Torah believe it's a sin not to follow the vow made and that they reject the annulment process for vows described in the Oral Torah.
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According to my understanding the Catholic idea of Annulment has nothing to do with the concept of Divorce as the Torah explains it. The Torah concept of 'Get' or the document written for ending a Jewish marriage doesn't seem to have anything in common with the process of 'Annulment' or 'Declaration of Nullity' as defined by the Catholic church.
The Torah allows a marriage to be dissolved if either of the partners has a complaint against the other spouse. Through the process of 'giving the get' the Jewish couple can end the marriage for what-ever reason. It appears to me that according to sources I have read that 'Annulment' is the act of the Church asserting that the entire 'marriage' never existed, the whole thing is treated as if they were never married in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annulment_(Catholic_Church)
In the Catholic Church, a declaration of nullity, commonly called an annulment, is a judgement on the part of an ecclesiastical tribunal determining that the sacrament of marriage was invalidly contracted. Annulment is the procedure, governed by the Church's canon law, which determines the marriage to be void at its inception (ab initio). A "Declaration of Nullity" is not the dissolution of an existing marriage, but rather a determination that the sacrament was never in fact conferred due to a failure to meet the requirements to enter validly into matrimony and thus a marriage never existed.
As always I am not an expert when it comes to the traditions and sacraments of other religions. But it seems that these two things, Annulment and Divorce are two entirely unrelated concepts. Judaism doesn't suggest that the marriage never existed, as it seems Annulment does. This is why it seems 'Gay' or 'Odd' from a Jewish standpoint.
I cannot see how the RCC could have any concept of 'Alimony' because if the marriage never existed, how could there be any responsibility to support the other spouse?
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/211,163858/GET-Jewish-bill-of-divorce-vs-Annulment.html
Rabbi Shlomo Chein: Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment...what's on your mind?
Reba: my mother asked me to ask you a question
Rabbi Shlomo Chein: ok
Reba: here it goes:
Reba: why in orthodox circles is it more acceptable to get a "get" [religious bill of divorce] as apposed to getting an annulment?
Reba: (My mother is a social worker in a shelter for battered jewish women)
Rabbi Shlomo Chein: you can't annul a Jewish marriage - The same G-d who gave us laws how to get into it, gave us laws how to get out of it
Reba: can you go into it more? I would like to print this session out for my mother later
Reba: I am trying to show my mother how cool the rabbis are on this site.. in general u guys r cool ppl
Rabbi Shlomo Chein: well an annulment means you are saying the first thing never really happned. But a Jewish marriage is a very important action, and it definately did happen! It is not just a simple agreement between two people, it is a bonding of two souls. So if they want to get out of it, they can't simply say it never happened. It did happen! And they are in it! Now they need to follow G-d's direction how to exit
Reba: thank you.
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Binyamin has correctly brought up the discussion of the 'Annulment of Vows' which is indeed in this coming weeks Torah portion.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/92380/jewish/Matos.htm
The Annulment of Vows
The Torah portion Matos begins with Moshe speaking “to the tribal heads of the Jewish people, telling them that this is the word that G-d commanded.”1 The Torah then goes on to spell out the laws of vows, nedarim , and their annulment, hatoras nedarim.
In explaining why the Torah singles out the tribal heads, Rashi says that “Moshe honored the tribal heads, teaching them first.” Rashi goes on to ask, “why was this specifically mentioned here, since this was always the case? To teach us that vows can be annulled even by a single individual, if he is an expert [such as a tribal leader or other scholar].”
The following question presents itself. Since this is the section that relates to vows and not to the annulment thereof, how does Rashi deduce that the tribal leaders were singled out here to inform us that even a single expert can annul a vow — the very antithesis of making one?
The main thrust of this section is not that “If a man makes a vow to G-d, or makes an oath to prohibit upon himself, he must not break his word,”2 for that is self-understood. Moreover, this is also included in the commandment to “distance yourself from falsehood.”3
Evidently, the Torah is telling us here that notwithstanding the fact that one must keep his word, it is possible for a vow to be annulled. Thus, the main thrust of the section is to let us know that vows can be annulled in any number of ways.
This is also to be understood from the more esoteric understanding of vows and their annulment:
With regard to vows, the Yerushalmi states:4 “Does it not suffice for you that which the Torah prohibited; you seek to prohibit yourself from other matters as well!?”
The reason for this statement is obvious. G-d’s intention is that through the performance of Torah and mitzvos we transform the world into a dwelling place for Him.5 As such, spiritual service must be performed with physical entities,6 making them into vessels for G-dliness. This purpose is not served if a person removes himself from involvement with them by means of oaths and vows.
On the other hand, our Sages also state7 that “vows are a fence for abstinence,” i.e., they enable a person to perform the command to “Sanctify yourself [by refraining from indulgence] in permitted matters.”8
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myjewishlearning.com seems to be a deformed 'judaism' site... I would not use it as a source for Halacha concerning real Judaism.
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Is that how it goes?
It's pretty gay when people don't get their facts right.
hehehe
An annulment in Catholicism seems surprisingly similar to an annulment in Judaism. But I'm no expert on either. Maybe you know different.
Actually, annulment's are not allowed in Judaism except in extremely rare circumstances (for example if there was deception involved in the marriage circumstances, it could be determined that the marriage document was not legally valid). In probably 99.9% of cases, there is no way to annul, and people who can't stay together simply get divorced. (Divorce is permitted by Judaism).
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I say gay like if people say "That's so gay.". I didn't mean it literally.
Gay doesn't even mean homosexual. It means happy. So either way people use gay, it's not the real meaning of the word.
Although it's admittedly a bit immature, calling something "gay" makes sense when someone does or says something gay - and I admit I find it comical to refer to it as gay. But to ridicule a gentile religion by calling it "gay" (and especially when you know that some of the members here practice that religion) is pretty inappropriate and disrespectful.
I suppose I think it's gay to call other religions gay on the JTF forum. Ok, that was just childish. But you get my point.
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While the Torah does not mention the concept of annulment, the rabbis in the Talmud interpreted the laws of marriage as allowing a beit din to intervene and annul a marriage if the husband has acted in a way that causes harm (physical or mental) to his wife. This could be done without the husband's participation or approval and over his protestations. In the Talmud the cases cited are specific: where a woman is coerced into the marriage upon threat of violence to her person or where a woman is kidnapped and forced to marry a man against her will.
Those are very rare instances. It cannot be applied to other cases than the ones listed in the Talmud. In today's world, maybe less than 0.01% of Jewish marriages come about through threat of physical violence.
In the early Middle Ages we find rabbinic rulings that an annulment can be decreed by a beit din if “defects” in the husband were found after the marriage took place. If the husband suffered from a condition (mental illness, abusive behavior, impotence, or a physical defect) at the time of the marriage and the wife was unaware of the condition when they were married, she can seek an annulment from the beit din.[/i]
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Life_Events/Divorce/Contemporary_Issues/Agunot/Annulment.shtml?p=2
Sounds very similar to a Catholic annulment to me.
Just saying! I'm no expert on either.
I don't know what Catholic annulment is, but Binyamin described it as being used instead of divorce since divorce is not allowed. That type of carte blanche annulment (if in fact that is how it works) is clearly NOT what you described there. The annulment you cited from the middle ages (and these rulings in the middle ages are based on the Talmudic laws, so I'm sure they also happened in the Talmudic period, but the article is just bringing some evidence that they were carried out practically I guess), involves a marriage that was made under false pretenses. When deception like that is involved, it makes the marriage document - a sacred and defined legal entity - invalid.
The sanctity and legally binding nature of the marriage document is precisely why annulments in the vast majority of cases cannot happen in Judaism.
To our Jewish members participating in this discussion, first of all you should know this stuff - especially what bullcat cited (Go learn some tractate Kethuvoth please), and second of all, what I stated about the importance of the marriage document and the halachic difficulty in annulling it is partly the cause of what is referred to as the Aguna crisis.
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Good post, KWRBT.
Binyamin Yisrael could say that from what he understands or has heard, annulments make it so the marriage never happened. At least that's how I understand annulments, and I don't know much about them at all.
But please, since we have Jews here, Catholics, various denominations of Protestantism, and a few Hindus, let's refrain from calling the religion of other members "gay." We want all good people who come here to feel welcome.
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Good post, KWRBT.
Binyamin Yisrael could say that from what he understands or has heard, annulments make it so the marriage never happened. At least that's how I understand annulments, and I don't know much about them at all.
So what if a Catholic couple gets their marriage annulled and they had kids? Does that retroactively make them "bastards" as understood by the Christian definition of the word? I say "Christian" because for Jews, bastards are only the product of a prohibited relationship. Simply having kids outside of marriage does not make bastards in Judaism but rather just illegitimate children.
But please, since we have Jews here, Catholics, various denominations of Protestantism, and a few Hindus, let's refrain from calling the religion of other members "gay." We want all good people who come here to feel welcome.
So I guess we can call Islam gay since any real Muslim is by definition not a good person. They might call themselves Muslim but they're trying to hijack the religion from the real Islam that is espoused by Al-Qaida (The opposite of what Bush said.).
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Those are very rare instances. It cannot be applied to other cases than the ones listed in the Talmud. In today's world, maybe less than 0.01% of Jewish marriages come about through threat of physical violence.
I don't know what Catholic annulment is, but Binyamin described it as being used instead of divorce since divorce is not allowed. That type of carte blanche annulment (if in fact that is how it works) is clearly NOT what you described there. The annulment you cited from the middle ages (and these rulings in the middle ages are based on the Talmudic laws, so I'm sure they also happened in the Talmudic period, but the article is just bringing some evidence that they were carried out practically I guess), involves a marriage that was made under false pretenses. When deception like that is involved, it makes the marriage document - a sacred and defined legal entity - invalid.
The sanctity and legally binding nature of the marriage document is precisely why annulments in the vast majority of cases cannot happen in Judaism.
To our Jewish members participating in this discussion, first of all you should know this stuff - especially what bullcat cited (Go learn some tractate Kethuvoth please), and second of all, what I stated about the importance of the marriage document and the halachic difficulty in annulling it is partly the cause of what is referred to as the Aguna crisis.
You basically restated what I wrote above...
I have stated the Torah commandment concerning giving a Get (Divorce document). I also pointed out that Annulment is the process of invalidating the entire relationship as if it did not exist. Orthodox Judaism does not recognize such a thing as annulment. The only thing which resembles the Catholic process is in the case that the Ketubah was not factually correct, or the witnesses were not kosher.
See:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70132.msg599286.html#msg599286
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,70132.msg600066.html#msg600066
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What if someone had a Deform or Conservative ketubah? Since they are not valid Halachically, would they require an annulment or just a civil divorce?
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Although it's admittedly a bit immature, calling something "gay" makes sense when someone does or says something gay - and I admit I find it comical to refer to it as gay. But to ridicule a gentile religion by calling it "gay" (and especially when you know that some of the members here practice that religion) is pretty inappropriate and disrespectful.
I suppose I think it's gay to call other religions gay on the JTF forum. Ok, that was just childish. But you get my point.
Good post. BY would do well to learn some respect.
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So what if a Catholic couple gets their marriage annulled and they had kids? Does that retroactively make them "bastards" as understood by the Christian definition of the word? I say "Christian" because for Jews, bastards are only the product of a prohibited relationship. Simply having kids outside of marriage does not make bastards in Judaism but rather just illegitimate children.
I don't think it's possible for Catholics with children to request an annulment from the church... As I said in an earlier post annulment is for people who have only been married for a very short time and find that one or more of the partners don't have what it takes to make the marital relationship a success... I am not sure but I believe if even just to much time goes by it becomes difficult to get the church to move on a request of annulment... Most requests for this sort of thing are denied by the church.
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hehehe
Actually, annulment's are not allowed in Judaism except in extremely rare circumstances (for example if there was deception involved in the marriage circumstances, it could be determined that the marriage document was not legally valid). In probably 99.9% of cases, there is no way to annul, and people who can't stay together simply get divorced. (Divorce is permitted by Judaism).
Thank you for that explanation. It was easy to understand.
Catholic annulments are granted on a similar basis. It is not used as a Catholic 'divorce tool' ( as was suggested by BY) since a valid marriage in the eyes of the church cannot be dissolved.
When Catholic couples seek a divorce it is granted civilly. As for Muman's question about the church and alimony. It is a mute point ( as they don't grant divorces). The courts decide alimony and child support ( child support is far more important in my eyes). Any parent to a child should not need the church or the courts to tell them to take care of their child, in my opinion. That is not the case often though. Thus we have divorce laws in this country. This is as far as I know and I am not an expert on the church or divorce.
As for Catholics who divorce...that is between them and G-d.
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So what if a Catholic couple gets their marriage annulled and they had kids? Does that retroactively make them "bastards" as understood by the Christian definition of the word? I say "Christian" because for Jews, bastards are only the product of a prohibited relationship. Simply having kids outside of marriage does not make bastards in Judaism but rather just illegitimate children.
So I guess we can call Islam gay since any real Muslim is by definition not a good person. They might call themselves Muslim but they're trying to hijack the religion from the real Islam that is espoused by Al-Qaida (The opposite of what Bush said.).
I don't understand a grown man using the word 'gay' the way you do, for any purpose.
I don't know all the ins and outs of a Catholic annulment. For that you need to consult a priest.
Muman, I know you are trying to be very respectful here.
My source on the subject of annulment in Judaism might be questionable from your standpoint. That is why I did not spout it as factual. Which you have done with questionable sources yourself. I used it to ask a question. Also, gay was not used to mean odd from BY standpoint. Although, you made a very diplomatic attempt at helping him out.
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You basically restated what I wrote above...
Well you'll have to forgive me for not reading all the comments in this thread.
Nonetheless, while I somehow suspect we didn't quite say exactly the same thing, in either case I'm sure I worded it differently and maybe a member here will find your explanation clearer, while another might find mine clearer. I don't believe it's a forum crime to reiterate what someone else said. (Granted that assumes we said the same thing, which I am not sure is true since I find your comments below this part a bit unclear!)
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What if someone had a Deform or Conservative ketubah? Since they are not valid Halachically, would they require an annulment or just a civil divorce?
That's a classic shaila in the 20th century. I think Rav Moshe had a teshuvah on it that said those are still marriages. Can't remember exactly but something about the intention of living together and so on. Oy my memory is totally shot. Anyway I think it was a machloket with Rav Henkin.
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I argued with my Asian girl friends on facebutt last night to stop sympathizing for jacko. He's friggin dead.
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"Oh but those were rumors" Yeah right
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Smh
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"HE WAS INNOCENT!" Lmfao
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Well you'll have to forgive me for not reading all the comments in this thread.
Nonetheless, while I somehow suspect we didn't quite say exactly the same thing, in either case I'm sure I worded it differently and maybe a member here will find your explanation clearer, while another might find mine clearer. I don't believe it's a forum crime to reiterate what someone else said. (Granted that assumes we said the same thing, which I am not sure is true since I find your comments below this part a bit unclear!)
I didn't understand Muman's response to be the same. But then again.... I didn't understand his or BY's responses fully. They didn't address what I asked.
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Thank you for that explanation. It was easy to understand.
Catholic annulments are granted on a similar basis. It is not used as a Catholic 'divorce tool' ( as was suggested by BY) since a valid marriage in the eyes of the church cannot be dissolved.
When Catholic couples seek a divorce it is granted civilly. As for Muman's question about the church and alimony. It is a mute point ( as they don't grant divorces). The courts decide alimony and child support ( child support is far more important in my eyes). Any parent to a child should not need the church or the courts to tell them to take care of their child, in my opinion. That is not the case often though. Thus we have divorce laws in this country. This is as far as I know and I am not an expert on the church or divorce.
As for Catholics who divorce...that is between them and G-d.
So what if a Catholic couple divorces in a civil court and they get re-married to someone else? Is that adultery according to Catholicism? Would they only be able to get a civil wedding and not a Catholic wedding for their second marriage?
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I didn't understand Muman's response to be the same. But then again.... I didn't understand his or BY's responses fully. They didn't address what I asked.
Thanks bc3... I was trying to explain that from my understanding of Jewish thought on the topic the concept of annulment seemed different. I don't think BY intentionally was trying to offend anyone though, and this is why I wanted to try to explain what I did.
Thanks again.
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So what if a Catholic couple divorces in a civil court and they get re-married to someone else? Is that adultery according to Catholicism? Would they only be able to get a civil wedding and not a Catholic wedding for their second marriage?
Yes and Yes, unless there was an ANNULMENT. What is your point BY?
No big white dresses or church marriage the second time around (without an annulment,) if you are Catholic.
People live with the consequences of their own behavior.
You should not so much worry about the Catholics relationship with G-d (unless you are personally impacted by it)...only your own.
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Thanks bc3... I was trying to explain that from my understanding of Jewish thought on the topic the concept of annulment seemed different. I don't think BY intentionally was trying to offend anyone though, and this is why I wanted to try to explain what I did.
Thanks again.
I understood that you were speaking from your own understanding and were trying to help Yacov out.
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So what if a Catholic couple divorces in a civil court and they get re-married to someone else? Is that adultery according to Catholicism? Would they only be able to get a civil wedding and not a Catholic wedding for their second marriage?
Not to discourage intellectual curiosity or anything, but it's difficult to fathom why this matters to you.