JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Lisa on August 27, 2007, 11:58:41 PM
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He said the reason Israeli soldiers were killed in battle is because they were not observant enough:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/27/wrabbi127.xml
And also, consider what he said in the past about the 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust:
Seven years ago, he sparked outrage when he said that the six million Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust did “not die for nothing”, but were the “reincarnation of Jews who had sinned” in previous generations.
Since when did Judaism include the belief in reincarnation?
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Since when did Judaism include the belief in reincarnation?
I stand to be corrected but don't some of the Chasidic people believe in reincarnation?
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All Jews believe in reincarnation - but it's very complex and different from what we think of as reincarnation. I would clarify with lubab, though.
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I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it. But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do. I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds. (Or something to that effect.)
OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later.
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I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it. But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do. I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds. (Or something to that effect.)
OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later.
That idea is not a Jewish one, as far as I know. If you are a Jew, then I can teach you th concept of reincarnation in kabalistic terms, however, I canot teach that part of Torah to a non-jew, as it is a sin for a Jew to teach a non-jew certain parts of Torah. Please specify if you are Jewish, and I will send you a private message accordingly.
What chaim said may be the shita of the rambam, who was against the idea of reincarnation in any way.
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He said the reason Israeli soldiers were killed in battle is because they were not observant enough:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/27/wrabbi127.xml
And also, consider what he said in the past about the 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust:
Seven years ago, he sparked outrage when he said that the six million Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust did “not die for nothing”, but were the “reincarnation of Jews who had sinned” in previous generations.
Since when did Judaism include the belief in reincarnation?
I honestly do not know why people here insist on attacking chachamim. What he said has a basis in torah, so before you argue with him based on common sense and morality alien to judaism, pease learn his rationale. I tend to agree that the Jews who die in the army die for a reason - many are not observant in the last, why do you think a Kohein(priest) used to warn the Jews in the times of the torah, that if any of the soldiers had sinned, they should not fight? Because he was afraid that they would die due to the sakanah(danger) of being in combat - it seems obvious to me that you have never learned the Talmud's statement that when a person is in danger, he is judged more severely, and his deeds are weghed, his mrit is calculated, and it is determined by G-d whether or not he wil survive the danger...please, don't pollute the board with your apikorsishe statements and outright kefirah.
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Please, let's be respectful to Lisa. She is a global moderator and she is Jewish.
While I happen to agree with most of the things you say (for example, I think that criticizing Rabbi Ovadia Yossef is dangerous and will turn a lot of people off to our movement), please handle debates in a respectful manner. I happen to believe in reincarnation but I do not hold malice towards her because she has a disagreement.
We have to have unity if we are going to become an effective mass movement. This type of debate can be very good.
For the record, yes... most Orthodox Jews believe in reincarnation. I happen to think it is a very logical belief even though I know our Christian members have some difficulty with this but remain respectful to us about it.
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Please, let's be respectful to Lisa. She is a global moderator and she is Jewish.
While I happen to agree with most of the things you say (for example, I think that criticizing Rabbi Ovadia Yossef is dangerous and will turn a lot of people off to our movement), please handle debates in a respectful manner. I happen to believe in reincarnation but I do not hold malice towards her because she has a disagreement.
We have to have unity if we are going to become an effective mass movement. This type of debate can be very good.
For the record, yes... most Orthodox Jews believe in reincarnation. I happen to think it is a very logical belief even though I know our Christian members have some difficulty with this but remain respectful to us about it.
I respect those who respect the sages, and gedolim, I see no reason to have respect for a person promoting this fringe nonsense about R'ovadia's wrongfulness. Anyway, the type of reincarnation that Jews hold to be true has little to do with the actual person coming back, but rather, as whatis known as a gilgul shavua. I do not hold malice as you say because Lisa and I disagree, it is the way in which she presents her opinions as facts that bothers me, she gives me the impression that it's her way or no way, and she seems to not want to listen to torah opinions(see the thread on polygamy when she said something to the effect that her sentiment was her opinion and not the torah's, i was greatly troubled by that)
**DISCLAIMER** - the below is intended for Jews only to read.
Most frum Jews believe that a person has 3 chances to to what is called tikkun - repair - for his soul, for the sins he has accumulated while on this world. Some say that certain greart Rabbis were gilgulim,, or reincarnations, of historical jewish figures. Many have said that a certain great rabbi who lived a few hundred year ago was the gilgul of the great Tanna Rabbi Meir. We also believe that most souls today are recycled, and not original souls made in shomayim. That being said, most of us today are reincarnations of other people, Jews of course. Also, there is a teaching that states that a soul is like a flame, it creates sparks known as nitzutzim, that become independent flames on their own.
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Chaka, when did I ever say it's my way or no way?
And for the record, I have never go shoving my beliefs down people's throats here. And yes, I am Jewish.
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Chaka, when did I ever say it's my way or no way?
And for the record, I have never go shoving my beliefs down people's throats here. And yes, I am Jewish.
Wow, did you just call me chaka? I should hope that was a typo..
Anyway, you didn't say that, but that was the impression you left on me in the other thread, where it semed like you had your own ideas, independent of torah, and you weren't willing to acknowledge the torah's opinion, you also belittled yeshiva students - your writing is very against the charedi establishment. I respect those who respect the torah and its way(s), not those who are scorners of the sages and of yeshiva students.
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Well Chakma613, I have my opinions, (and I did make a typo before) which I think everyone is entitled to. And they are just that. Nothing more. They are in no way binding.
And I have nothing against religious people. What I am against is people telling me I can't have an opinion.
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Chakma613, are you saying that no religious Jews have ever died in battle in Israel or elsewhere?
And isn't it true that in Israel, the left wing non-religious types wiggle their way out of military service, leaving lots of religious Jews serving on the front lines?
And since you and Jeffguy believe in reincarnation, why do you think Chaim disagreed with the concept in the past. I remember him saying that if you have more than one life, there is less incentive to be good in your present life if you can "make it up" in your future lives.
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Chakma613, are you saying that no religious Jews have ever died in battle in Israel or elsewhere?
And isn't it true that in Israel, the left wing non-religious types wiggle their way out of military service, leaving lots of religious Jews serving on the front lines?
And since you and Jeffguy believe in reincarnation, why do you think Chaim disagreed with the concept in the past. I remember him saying that if you have more than one life, there is less incentive to be good in your present life if you can "make it up" in your future lives.
Religious Jews die because they are held to one standard, and irreligious ones to another. Hashem punishes tzadikim in this world, so tat they will not be punished in Olam haba.
I do not hold that Chaim is a religious authority, his opinions are his own, but I do not always agree with him. His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree. This idea, that if a person is reincarnated, he will not be as good, is a misconception, since if he knows that he only has 3 chances to do tikkun for his soul, he does not know what number he's on now, and he will be very careful not to damage his soul since if he deos on the 3rd time, the soul can suffer immensely, and one who knows about reincarnation knows this.
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His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.
So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?
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I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it. But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do. I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds. (Or something to that effect.)
OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later.
That idea is not a Jewish one, as far as I know. If you are a Jew, then I can teach you th concept of reincarnation in kabalistic terms, however, I canot teach that part of Torah to a non-jew, as it is a sin for a Jew to teach a non-jew certain parts of Torah. Please specify if you are Jewish, and I will send you a private message accordingly.
What chaim said may be the shita of the rambam, who was against the idea of reincarnation in any way.
With all respect to your belives; haw do you plan to hide Torrah from goim if the all Tanath was translated from Hebrew ages ago? Do you mean the "Oral Law"? And where is written that's the sin? I'm just curious.
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I think some Chasidic Jews do believe in it. But I don't think mainstream Orthodox Jews do. I remember an Ask JTF show of a few months back where Chaim said he disagreed with the whole concept of reincarnation because if you get more than one life, you have less incentive to be good and do good deeds. (Or something to that effect.)
OkKahaneChai, from what I understand, when some Jews speak of reincarnation, don't they mean in metaphorically? For example, when someone's father dies, and their daughter gives birth to a son a few months later.
That idea is not a Jewish one, as far as I know. If you are a Jew, then I can teach you th concept of reincarnation in kabalistic terms, however, I canot teach that part of Torah to a non-jew, as it is a sin for a Jew to teach a non-jew certain parts of Torah. Please specify if you are Jewish, and I will send you a private message accordingly.
What chaim said may be the shita of the rambam, who was against the idea of reincarnation in any way.
With all respect to your belives; haw do you plan to hide Torrah from goim if the all Tanath was translated from Hebrew ages ago? Do you mean the "Oral Law"? And where is written that's the sin? I'm just curious.
Yes, I was referring to the oral torah, not the written one. The written one ca be learned by non-jews
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His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.
So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?
Yes, but rambam is in the minority here - most do not hold like him today.
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His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.
So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?
Yes, but rambam is in the minority here - most do not hold like him today.
I didn't know the Rambam didn't believe in reincarnation - in this case I may need to reassess my beliefs on the subject, as when it comes to halachic disputes I usually stick to the Rambam.
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Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?
I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.
Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:
1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".
2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.
It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.
If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.
Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.
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Anyone who beleives in the validity of books such as the Zohar and Shar Hagilgilium and the writings of the AriZal (teacher of the the author of the Shulchan Aruch-So basically if you believe in the Shulchan Aruch you must hold of the Arizal too) must believe in reincarnation.
The fact that what reincarnation in Judaism is is misunderstood is another story.
Most people think it means a reincanation of the actual person into anther body. If you look in Shar Hagilgulim where it is explained at length, it really is about a reincarnation of that person's particular mission, which if not fulfilled by him must be fulfilled by someone or something else.
I haven't seen where the Rambam says he does not belive in reincarnation. Can you cite this?
Even if he does say that I would bet he's referring to the popular notions about reincarnation, but not as I described above.
This is not a disencintive, but an incentive for people to get moving and do their mission. When they fulfill their mission fullly in that body, then that body is refined and can be given eternal life.
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Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?
I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.
Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:
1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".
2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.
It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.
If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.
Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.
I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.
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I honestly do not know why people here insist on attacking chachamim. What he said has a basis in torah, so before you argue with him based on common sense and morality alien to judaism, pease learn his rationale. I tend to agree that the Jews who die in the army die for a reason - many are not observant in the last, why do you think a Kohein(priest) used to warn the Jews in the times of the torah, that if any of the soldiers had sinned, they should not fight? Because he was afraid that they would die due to the sakanah(danger) of being in combat - it seems obvious to me that you have never learned the Talmud's statement that when a person is in danger, he is judged more severely, and his deeds are weghed, his mrit is calculated, and it is determined by G-d whether or not he wil survive the danger...please, don't pollute the board with your apikorsishe statements and outright kefirah.
Look dude, she did not insult him. I must confess to not knowing exactly what you said, but I happen to know that in the Jewish and Christian Bibles it is FORBIDDEN to deify a leader in any way.
I am not sure what you have interpreted to allow that but have repeatedly asked people to post why we are forbidden from criticizing any religious leader and nobody has ever provided verses or passages.
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Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?
I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.
Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:
1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".
2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.
It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.
If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.
Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.
And I agree with you 100%.
Ovadia Yosef has been mistaken on many things. In addition to the things listed above and that Lisa pointed out just now, how about when he ordered Chaim expelled from Israel, said that Jews should surrender Jerusalem for peace, told his followers that Arafat is his friend, and ruled that we must try to spare all lives (including Arab)?
Chaim and I do not INSULT Yosef, but we do expose his deeds and mistakes.
NONE of what I just said can even remotely be construed as an attack.
If we start forbidding saying anything negative of him or any other rabbi, G-d will judge us for committing idolatry just like worshipping the golden calf.
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I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.
Excuse me, chakma, but who are you to judge ahenu kol beth Yisrael? You have quite a chutzpa to write such a lashon hara about decent people. Just because there is an opportunity to learn Torah does not mean that a person who was brought up to shun religion will enter a beth midrash. Just because YOU did does not mean that a soldier who goes and sees Hell, and has to deal with the stinking Arab Nazis yemah shemam, and has to have rockets flying above him day in and day out, day in and day out while their generals order them to give the animals HUMANITARIAN AID, will believe in haShem and His Torah in the same way that you and I can in our American comfort zone. You are a nice kid, but people like you make these mistakes all the time and you should take back what you said.
I'm not judging them, I am saying that almost every Jew has the pportunity to learn about Judaism, and he ios t be held responsible for not doing so. Yu do have a point about how army life does not alow a jew to learn much about judaism if he hasnt already. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I just feel that I shoul stand up for R' Ovadiah in a thread thast called his opinion a "gaffe" - that is a negaitve term in itself, and I was disheartened to hear a fellow Jew who belongs to such a great organization saying such things about a gadol hador.
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Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?
I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.
Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:
1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".
2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.
It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.
If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.
Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.
I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.
If you were brought up with the notion that religious people are the source of all problems in the world-do you think that just by living among religious people is a real "opportunity" to come close.
Yes they are surrounded with holy sites and shuls etc. but in their minds they are taught to look with disgust at all of those things.
The Israeli educational system has effectively kidnapped and brainwashed them to think this way.
There are people there ready to teach, but if you were brought up that way would you consider listening to them?
Especially when the religious people put them down on such a regular basis as Rav Yosef just did. Do you think that type of talk will bring those people closer to observance?
I"m not saying everyone is on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu here as my argument (though that is true in a way-Moshe was sincerely humbled in front of all people-especially the generation at the end of the Galut). I'm just saying that at its source-all suffering is a decree from G-d that is above the level of reason.
If G-d has to use suffering as a way to accomplish His goal then you've just made Him into a very limited being.
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I honestly do not know why people here insist on attacking chachamim. What he said has a basis in torah, so before you argue with him based on common sense and morality alien to judaism, pease learn his rationale. I tend to agree that the Jews who die in the army die for a reason - many are not observant in the last, why do you think a Kohein(priest) used to warn the Jews in the times of the torah, that if any of the soldiers had sinned, they should not fight? Because he was afraid that they would die due to the sakanah(danger) of being in combat - it seems obvious to me that you have never learned the Talmud's statement that when a person is in danger, he is judged more severely, and his deeds are weghed, his mrit is calculated, and it is determined by G-d whether or not he wil survive the danger...please, don't pollute the board with your apikorsishe statements and outright kefirah.
Look dude, she did not insult him. I must confess to not knowing exactly what you said, but I happen to know that in the Jewish and Christian Bibles it is FORBIDDEN to deify a leader in any way.
I am not sure what you have interpreted to allow that but have repeatedly asked people to post why we are forbidden from criticizing any religious leader and nobody has ever provided verses or passages.
She called his ruling a "gaffe" that's pretty insulting.
I am not deifying r' ovadiah bu I am not about to say he is wrong in making a statement tht I agree with.
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Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?
I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.
Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:
1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".
2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.
It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.
If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.
Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.
I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.
If you were brought up with the notion that religious people are the source of all problems in the world-do you think that just by living among religious people is a real "opportunity" to come close.
Yes they are surrounded with holy sites and shuls etc. but in their minds they are taught to look with disgust at all of those things.
The Israeli educational system has effectively kidnapped and brainwashed them to think this way.
There are people there ready to teach, but if you were brought up that way would you consider listening to them?
Especially when the religious people put them down on such a regular basis as Rav Yosef just did. Do you think that type of talk will bring those people closer to observance?
I"m not saying everyone is on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu here as my argument (though that is true in a way-Moshe was sincerely humbled in front of all people-especially the generation at the end of the Galut). I'm just saying that at its source-all suffering is a decree from G-d that is above the level of reason.
If G-d has to use suffering as a way to accomplish His goal then you've just made Him into a very limited being.
G-d has his reasons for making people suffer, and it takes someone like Rav Ovadiah to decide that, certainly not people like is. I stand by what I said wehn I said that the israelis are not Tinukh shenishba, they have the resources, they have the surroundings, it's their fault of theuy chos not to avail themselves of it because of the education system or the media. What you are saying is exactly how people justify arsab terrorism, they say that it's the fault of the education system, or the media, and they are hence not eb held responsible fo their actions, you're basically saying the same thing.
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Gaffe means mistake or blunder. Do you really hold he has never, ever sinned, made an error in judgment, or had a moment of weakness?
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Does the Rav Ovadiah Yosef care to go into how his party held up the government that expelled Jews from their homes in Gush Katif and northern Shomron which acted as buffer zones for Jewish people in Israel how THAT is a direct cause of the deaths of innocent Jews?
I think it is quite a nerve to say that we know why G-d does these things.
Certainly we must always look into our deeds and try to improve ourselves and others for the future, but once tragedy has befallen it is wrong to tell them this is because of their sins because:
1. There are infinite ways G-d could use to bring a person to repentence. The fact that he decides someone should die is a GEZEIRA a decree that is not compelled by any reason. (See the Medresh about Moshe and the Burning Bush when he asked why there was suffering for innocent people and G-d told him "Geziera Hi Milifonai" "It is a decree before me" and G-d did not give a reason and told Moshe to be quiet and stop searching for a reason because it was simply a decree before him".
2. I think there is no question that the vast majority of Israeli soldiers and Israelis in general fall into the category of Tinok Shnishba i.e. a child that was taken captive and taught not to repsect Judaism, the Torah the Rabbis. They are all brought up this way in Israel today.
It is unthinkable to say that such a person would be judged on the same level as one who was brough up in a religious household or was exposed to true Torah Judaism in the proper way.
If they are not observant we should be pointing the finger at OURSLEVES (not at them) for not educating them as most are completely ignorant of what the Torah is all about.
Lisa I think you are right to be disgusted, and I'm with you on this 100%.
I do not agree with your statement that the IDF soldiers are tinok shenishba, they are surrounded by Judaism in Israel, and have many opportunities to learn about it.
I'm sure R' ovadiah has heard of this midrash, so your basically brin presumptuous in insuating that he hasn't. Also, you're putting klal yisroel on the level of Moshe by saying what you said, so you're way out in left field in your comparison.
If you were brought up with the notion that religious people are the source of all problems in the world-do you think that just by living among religious people is a real "opportunity" to come close.
Yes they are surrounded with holy sites and shuls etc. but in their minds they are taught to look with disgust at all of those things.
The Israeli educational system has effectively kidnapped and brainwashed them to think this way.
There are people there ready to teach, but if you were brought up that way would you consider listening to them?
Especially when the religious people put them down on such a regular basis as Rav Yosef just did. Do you think that type of talk will bring those people closer to observance?
I"m not saying everyone is on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu here as my argument (though that is true in a way-Moshe was sincerely humbled in front of all people-especially the generation at the end of the Galut). I'm just saying that at its source-all suffering is a decree from G-d that is above the level of reason.
If G-d has to use suffering as a way to accomplish His goal then you've just made Him into a very limited being.
G-d has his reasons for making people suffer, and it takes someone like Rav Ovadiah to decide that, certainly not people like is. I stand by what I said wehn I said that the israelis are not Tinukh shenishba, they have the resources, they have the surroundings, it's their fault of theuy chos not to avail themselves of it because of the education system or the media. What you are saying is exactly how people justify arsab terrorism, they say that it's the fault of the education system, or the media, and they are hence not eb held responsible fo their actions, you're basically saying the same thing.
No. Not the same thing at all. The Arab media and education system is a perfect reflection of the Islamic religion and the values they all share.
On the opposite spectrum is the Establishment in Israel who for the first time in Jewish history tried to establish an education system for Jews that was totally divorced and anti-thetical to Judaism.
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General comment:
Do you find many Christians who say Pat Robertson, Greg Laurie, the Apostle Paul, or any other significant leader or thinker in Christendom to be incontrovertible or for it to be sin to criticize them?
Paul is the father of most of the New Testament of the Bible, for crying out loud, and yet no Christian has said that even he was blameless or perfect!
For that matter, have you ever heard Chaim say that Ha Rav Meir Kahane (zt"l) was infallible? No!
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Look througout the Chumash and Tanach. The prophets never say "so and so died because of his sins". They will always say "dont' sin so this won't happen to you". Which is a very different thing. We can avoid a lot of these issues by doing good things, but at the end G-d could decide that something bad is meant to happen to us anyway.
So no, it is not Rav Yosef's place or even any Navi's place to give a reason why someone was killed, because there is no reason in that sense of the word. It is a Gezeira-a decree which is above reason.
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Gaffe means mistake or blunder. Do you really hold he has never, ever sinned, made an error in judgment, or had a moment of weakness?
Of course, but to call his ruling a mistake before it has been analyzed by the general consensus of frumkite, it is insulting.
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The two pillars of today's Judaism, R.Yosef Karo and R.Yitzhak Luria, wrote entire treatises on gilgulim.
At his hesped for R.Kahane, former Sefardi Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu said that "R.Kahane was a gilgul of a warrior from the Tenach who knew no fear".
According to Chaim, R.Yosef was already "completely demented, senile and insane" back in 2001, but if the Jewish soldiers aren't up to scratch, then it does say that Hashem's special Providence will not be with them: "You abandon and disgrace us, and do not go forth with our armies" (Tehillim 44).
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Look througout the Chumash and Tanach. The prophets never say "so and so died because of his sins". They will always say "dont' sin so this won't happen to you". Which is a very different thing. We can avoid a lot of these issues by doing good things, but at the end G-d could decide that something bad is meant to happen to us anyway.
So no, it is not Rav Yosef's place or even any Navi's place to give a reason why someone was killed, because there is no reason in that sense of the word. It is a Gezeira-a decree which is above reason.
Ok, so R'Ovadiah does not know Tanakh, according to what you are saying.
However, a rabbi is far more chashuv than a navi - even katanim and deranged people can and in fact were nevi'im. If what you say is true, that it is not the Rav's place to say what he said, then he would be met with a backlash from rav eliyashiv, or another gadol, which he has not. Rabbi avigdor miller zt'l once gave a reason for the Shoah - he said that it was G-d's way of bringing down Hell on earth, to show humanity that hell in fact exists, but I suppose you'll dismiss him as well..care to disparage any other gedolim while you're at it?
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Chaim has said this so many times... I mean SO MANY times. Just listen to the Ask JTF programs.
It is extremely dangerous to criticize a Jew who is a high Rabbi and Torah scholar... I mean... SUPER dangerous. Sure... we can say we disagree with him but we have to be so careful. Ok, he has his problems... but come on... you have to at least respect our religious belief in Judaism towards this matter. And not just because it hurts the movement with comments like this.
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives. But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them.
To clear anything up, the Rabbi never cursed out a Rabbi by name, he just quoted the wrong opinion and proved why it was wrong. He was very respectful to all Orthodox Rabbis and was careful to call out their wrong decisions and beliefs but didn't call them by name.
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives. But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them.
Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.
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You're not answering my question. Theoretically if a Rabbi says "we should give up Jerusalem for peace with arab muslim nazis" and every observant Jew punched him in the face in public, would we not be better off then we are now, and actually have REAL Rabbis for a change. Yes or no?
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives. But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them.
Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.
FYI: I believe your siggy should be "Al Taamod Al Dam.." not "Lo Taamod Al Dam...
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Lubab has a streak of agreeing with me recently, the Massiah must have come. ;D
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You're not answering my question. Theoretically if a Rabbi says "we should give up Jerusalem for peace with arab muslim nazis" and every observant Jew punched him in the face in public, would we not be better off then we are now, and actually have REAL Rabbis for a change. Yes or no?
Ok, so you are now condoning the public abuse of an elderly rabbi? Where do you get this garbage from? Beating up a rabbi? are you mad? Of course my answer is NO. Just because r' ovadiah made a mistake about land for peace, you instantly think that he should be killed?? You really are going off the deep end, and you sound like a muslim who instantly resorts to violence. Now, if you say that the rabbonim shoukld have spoken up to r' ovadiah - fine, but that's not what you're saying. Just how do you define a real rabbi? On who follows your narrow ideology that arab = chayav mitah? or in this case, anyone who doesn't think like you is chayav mitah. sounds like islam to me..
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You're putting words into my mouth. As a follower of R' Kahane I would do whatever R' Kahane did, nothing more and nothing less. He would have mocked the foolish words of Rabbis who say things against the Torah but would not menchan their names or mock them personally; so I would do the same thing.
I'm simply throwing out a scenerio here, and I wanted your response.
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah
I do believe we should call out ANY opinion that violates the Torah.
I do not think this means to criticize Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, whom I disagree with on several major issues. To disagree and to insult are completely different.
We need to think about the bigger picture and about JTF and if this hurts our movement or not.
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives. But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them.
Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.
FYI: I believe your siggy should be "Al Taamod Al Dam.." not "Lo Taamod Al Dam...
No wonder you've been so outlanidsh lately, you're forgetting your vayikra..look at pasuk tes-zayan in kedoshim, perek yud-tes
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah
I do believe we should call out ANY opinion that violates the Torah.
I do not think this means to criticize Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, whom I disagree with on several major issues. To disagree and to insult are completely different.
We need to think about the bigger picture and about JTF and if this hurts our movement or not.
I agree
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Chakhma, if all Jews thought like R' Kahane and publically called out any Rabbinical opinion that violated the Torah then we would have real Rabbis today since none of them would dare say anything against the Torah since they would fear instantly being mocked by the populace and physically attacked in public by real Rabbis if they see their decision as a danger to Jewish lives. But if all Jews think like you, who blindly follow anything Rabbis say, regardless of if it clearly violates the Torah or not without even questioning them, then we have fake Rabbis like we have today since they know whatever they say is acceptable since Israel will be too afraid of saying anything that might offend them.
Oh dear, please tell me you didn't just call a gadol hador a fake rabbi, chas veshalom! We can question, but through the proper channels, not just insulting. There are those who say that we can judge the death of people, most misnagdim hold this way, and some chassidim, but to my knowledge, only chabad holds that we cannot(which explains lubab's position, but he should have said that this is his group's opinion, not the only one). Rabbi Ovadiah in no way threatens jewish life by saying that Israeli soldiers are dying because of their lack of observance, bhe may in fact scare a few out of being chiloni.
FYI: I believe your siggy should be "Al Taamod Al Dam.." not "Lo Taamod Al Dam...
No wonder you've been so outlanidsh lately, you're forgetting your vayikra..look at pasuk tes-zayan in kedoshim, perek yud-tes
Yes. You are correct. I stand corrected on THAT issue.
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I did not criticize him, I just pointed out that he was linguistically in error, and that this may be indicative of his recent behavior. I usually have a lot of respect for lubab.
What I said was far different from calling R' ovadiah a fake rabbi chas vesalom.
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Let's stay on the debate and refrain from insulting the other members. The calmer and more factual we are, the better results our words will carry.
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I never called him a fake Rabbi, you're making that up. I simply stated "Fake Rabbis". I never said he was a fake Rabbi.
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Paul is the father of most of the New Testament of the Bible, for crying out loud, and yet no Christian has said that even he was blameless or perfect!
What a ridiculous statement to make!!!!!!!
You beleive that his letters and words are the Word of G-d, on par with the prophecies of Moses, Ezekiel, Isaiah and Jeremiah.
He wrote letters to followers and you consider it the word of G-d and then you claim that he wasn't infallible!!!!!!!!!!!
How could you beleive his letters were the Word of G-d, without holding him infallible?
Is there any statement that he made that you think was incorrect?
Of course, the answer is no.
So, let's be honest here.
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I never called him a fake Rabbi, you're making that up. I simply stated "Fake Rabbis". I never said he was a fake Rabbi.
We were discussing people you consider to be fake rabbis, so the assumption that you were referring to r'ovadiah was an easy one to make
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There is no assumption to make since I never said anything directly about R' Ovadia Yosef in this thread.
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Jeff, I at least wasn't insulting. I said that his statements and decisions have been mistaken and damaging. It is not true that Arabs are the friends of Jews, that we should seek to spare Arab lives, or that Chaim should be banned from Israel. These are just three very wrong opinions that Ovadia Yosef holds and has taught his followers. Someone in such a high and revered position should have exercised better thought and judgment before issuing these rulings, in my opinion.
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I agree with you on this, C.F.
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His reasoning sounds like the Rambam's argument, and I respect that, but I do not agree.
So I take it there is more than one opinion regarding reincarnation?
Yes, but rambam is in the minority here - most do not hold like him today.
it wasnt the Rambam, it was Rav Saadya Gaon- and even by him (by the way Chaim said it on the show) i think that what the Rav was saying is that one should no belive in reincarnation in that if you say ooh I will have another chance , etc. then you wont improve yourself now.
anyway since the Arizal Hakadosh this has been public knowledge- and gilgulim is a kindness from Hashe-m for us to repair ourselves while we have a chance. But know that every sin is accounted for, as well as every Mitzva.
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Unfortunatly their are many people in todays world who arent properly balanced and so have a need to bash Rabbis, Torah Scolars and Religious Jews in order to justify their own mistakes and wicked actions. I do not believe that their are a conciderable amount or any tinok shenishba today. Every Jew has the opportunity to learn Torah and find out what it is. If one cant go to a lecture he or she can use a computer, etc. Lets stop making excuses for our negative behavior and start correcting ourselves a step at a time. (each person on his/her level).
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Unfortunatly their are many people in todays world who arent properly balanced and so have a need to bash Rabbis, Torah Scolars and Religious Jews in order to justify their own mistakes and wicked actions. I do not believe that their are a conciderable amount or any tinok shenishba today. Every Jew has the opportunity to learn Torah and find out what it is. If one cant go to a lecture he or she can use a computer, etc. Lets stop making excuses for our negative behavior and start correcting ourselves a step at a time. (each person on his/her level).
Recognizing that someone has been brainwashed is not a contradition to correcting those mistakes. Chabad for example is probably the biggest defender of those unobservant Jews, on one hand emphasizing how they don't know better, but then are also one of the most active movements to actually educate them and fix the situation. So the two things are not mutually exclusive.
And if you think that just because something is available on the intrnet or in your country is a valid "opporitunity" for these Jews than you are not familiar with the mindset of those that come out of the secular Israeli school system and their hatred for all things religious.
We should have this strict perspective about OURSELVES and scrutinizing OUR OWN actions (especially since we are in Elul) but when it comes to OTHER people's actions-you should try to help as much as you can and otherwise be "Dan LeKaf Zechut". In the merit of not judging our fellows so harshly, may G-d also judge us favorably this Rosh Hashana!
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I didnt say being Observent is easy, but it kills me seeing people at least not trying or having the goal. Many people in todays generation live like pigs and dont even attempt to change. I live in a secular invironment, many of the people I meet and interact with arent fully religious( neither am I), but their are differnt levels of people though. Former friends of whom I see I can have no positive influence in, I dont interact with them any longer. Friends who I can see that want to change and do, do things that are positive and if I have any affect I am friends with them and do concider them to be my brothers.
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Every Jew is your brother and sister whether they are observant or not. "Yisroel Af Al Pi Shechata Yisroel Hu" the Talmud says.
Which means a Jew even though he may sin, is still a Jew.
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Every Jew is your brother and sister whether they are observant or not. "Yisroel Af Al Pi Shechata Yisroel Hu" the Talmud says.
Which means a Jew even though he may sin, is still a Jew.
thats only as long as he is attached to his higher soul and is concidered Yisrael. If someone who does something that deserves Karet, then s/he is "cut off" from their Jewish soul, their are ways to do tishuva and everyone should, but in the mean time I wouldnt call a public sinner my brother if he does things that are beyond tolerence. This also applies to big sinners who cause Hillul Hashem and who sin and cause others to sin for example the media and government in Israel. They are not my brothers, if their life was in danger I wouldnt give a damm, and I would like to get rid of them much more then I do to the arabs ( and I want arabs gone now).
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Tzvi, please tell me who is going about "bashing rabbis".
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Tzvi, please tell me who is going about "bashing rabbis".
it wasnt specific, but directed towards a lot of people in the world today. I would say that every non-religious Jew has some of it (everyone on his own level) but I cant say it as a fact.
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No, you leveled this charge at forum members. Please be a man and tell us who you think was defaming rabbis or stop with these whines and complaints.
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I can't believe people still don't understand that Ovadia Yosef simply does things to fatten his pockets. After working to elect Shimon Peres simply as a business decision betraying the jewish people, it is not surprising that Ovadia Yosef would continue his policy of making radical anti Jewish comments and showing his vile hatred for people who are a little different than him. For him to talk negatively about the non religious when he sits their on his thrown eating gourmet meals and wiping his tuchis with the 100 dollar bills shimon peres throws his way is simply a disgrace. He is do what I say, not what I do.