JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Trumpeldor on October 09, 2007, 08:26:01 PM
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
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Because it is self-hating to do so.
Would identifying as a Jew first and an American second make me a self-hating American?
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Identifying foremost as an American should be banned.
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Because it is self-hating to do so.
Would identifying as a Jew first and an American second make me a self-hating American?
No.
Why does it work one way and not the other?
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Because it is self-hating to do so.
It will lead to assimilation. In Ancient Persia, it almost led to a Holocaust and in America, it is causing a spiritual Holocaust.
Are you referring to Purim? How is it that what led to the actions of Hamen?
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
Do some people accuse you of having a "dual-loyalty"? It's not like Israel does anything to undermine the US.
Contrast that to Mexico and some other countries. When Iran's president visited the US, there were some people with a clear loyalty to Iran who were praising Iran's president.
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Identifying foremost as an American should be banned.
I disagree because then nobody will feel any patriotism towards the US.
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Because it is self-hating to do so.
Would identifying as a Jew first and an American second make me a self-hating American?
That's an excellent point. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them self-hating. I think too often people are very glib at using that "self-hating" term towards anyone who disagrees with them.
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Explain more about what happened in ancient Persia.
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You have to be loyal to Israel in order to be loyal to America. If America is not loyal to Israel first, G-d will destroy America because He said in The Bible that He will bless those that bless us and curse those that curse us.
America existed just fine before 1948.
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You have to be loyal to Israel in order to be loyal to America. If America is not loyal to Israel first, G-d will destroy America because He said in The Bible that He will bless those that bless us and curse those that curse us.
I agree. The evil CFR/Bilderberg groups have forced the US into forcing bad policies upon Israel. They want people to think "What's good for CFR/Bilderberg is good for the US, which is good for Israel." Wrong. What's good for Israel, is good for the US and CFR/Bilderberg groups are corrupt and full of vices.
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America existed just fine before 1948.
Hasn't Britain worsened significantly since it started occupying Israel?
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The Jews wanted to celebrate with The King in a Persian banquet so G-d punished them for celebrating Non-Jewish celebrations. That's why Chaim says Jews shouldn't celebrate American holidays, not even The Fourth of July.
Is it wrong to acknowledge the fourth of July? What about Memorial Day? I think the military is deserving of a parade or any other celebration.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile). Second if a Jew views themselves as an "American" first, then they will ultimately be killing themselves not only spiritually but also physically. I am quite sure that there will be a day when there will be a rise in anti-Semitism in America and ultimately there will likely be a Holocaust in America, perhaps not soon but someday. Because of that we must accept that we are Jews first because whether we want to admit it or not, our enemies will remind us, just like they did in Germany.
*I don't mean to offend any Righteous Gentile posters and I'm sure that you will stand by us even if the rest of America does someday rise against us but we (The Jews) must accept that we can't run away from our problems and pretend that a Holocaust can never happen again.
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Why don't you ask Chaim about it? He could explain my answer better.
You made a controversial statement and it is your intellectual obligation to answer it. Chaim encourages debate and discourages people agreeing with him 100% of the time.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
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Why should it ever be one or the other?
Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. Are you saying we should all be loyal to the current evil corrupt government of Israel as opposed to America?
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A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
[/quote]
I think Yacov said it was Napolean who eliminated autonomy of Jews being a state within a state. So in that sense, Jews aren't exactly a nationality within a state.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
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Why should it ever be one or the other?
Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. Are you saying we should all be loyal to the current evil corrupt government of Israel as opposed to America?
The current Israeli government is not a Jewish Government. There are 10 or so Arabs in the Knesset there is very little that qualifies the Israeli government as a Jewish government. Judaism is a nationality, we are a people- a nation. God gave promises to the Jewish people and later to Am Yisrael, the Jewish nation
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Why should it ever be one or the other?
Judaism is a religion, not a nationality. Are you saying we should all be loyal to the current evil corrupt government of Israel as opposed to America?
Chaim argues that Jews belong in Israel and that it is a sin for a Jew to hold political office outside of Israel or participate in American culture. In his view, it is clearly one or the unacceptable alternative.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
If you feel so strongly about it, then go there!
Odds are you will not, though.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will
-
What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
If you feel so strongly about it, then go there!
Odds are you will not, though.
I will as soon as I can, but right now my parents won't let me
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
There are liberal groups that claim to represent Jews and they advocate awful policies. I think they should stop claiming that the policies they advocate, represent Jews, because they don't.
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The current Israeli government is not a Jewish Government. There are 10 or so Arabs in the Knesset there is very little that qualifies the Israeli government as a Jewish government. Judaism is a nationality, we are a people- a nation. G-d gave promises to the Jewish people and later to Am Yisrael, the Jewish nation
Despite this, don't they call it a Jewish state?
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The current Israeli government is not a Jewish Government. There are 10 or so Arabs in the Knesset there is very little that qualifies the Israeli government as a Jewish government. Judaism is a nationality, we are a people- a nation. G-d gave promises to the Jewish people and later to Am Yisrael, the Jewish nation
Despite this, don't they call it a Jewish state?
They do and to a certain extent it is, but not to far enough an extent.
Also I can point at a dog and say it's a human but it doesn't make it so, one can claim whatever they want but that doesnt make it so
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will
By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will
By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
Because while you may consider yourself an American, to the world you are a "Jew." If you believe in the Torah you have to accept all of it, even parts that are hard to deal with. People can be born anywhere but that doesn't shape their identity, identity is understanding your past and predicting where your future is, identity helps you on your path and if a Jew calls himself an "American" he fails to look at his past and therefore will be unable to see his future.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their God-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
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Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
After WWI, didn't Britain control the amount of Jews who were able to go to Israel?
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will
By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
Because while you may consider yourself an American, to the world you are a "Jew." If you believe in the Torah you have to accept all of it, even parts that are hard to deal with. People can be born anywhere but that doesn't shape their identity, identity is understanding your past and predicting where your future is, identity helps you on your path and if a Jew calls himself an "American" he fails to look at his past and therefore will be unable to see his future.
I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
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I don't agree with Chaim on American holidays.
Yacov,
Are you going to explain to me your position on how being an American first makes someone a self-hating Jew?
I would really like to know why.
A Jew claiming that he is an American first is simply covering-up his Jewish history. He is a Jew and he must accept that, there are no German-Jews or American-Jews or Russian-Jews, there are only Jews. They may have come from Russia or Germany or America but they are still Jews and being a Jew is both a nationality and a race, we must not allow either aspect to be overlooked
1. Why must someone accept being foremost a Jew? Isn't it up to the individual to choose their group identification? Isn't that what freedom is according to the founding fathers?
2. Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this.
1. The American form of freedom is great for American people, but a Jew is different, we are obligated to a covenant that was given to us by G-d and while we personally may not have accepted it, unfortunately for some of us, our forefathers accepted it for us and therefore the obligation is upon us to follow G-d's will
By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews.
Because while you may consider yourself an American, to the world you are a "Jew." If you believe in the Torah you have to accept all of it, even parts that are hard to deal with. People can be born anywhere but that doesn't shape their identity, identity is understanding your past and predicting where your future is, identity helps you on your path and if a Jew calls himself an "American" he fails to look at his past and therefore will be unable to see his future.
I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history.
For the majority of people in the world you are right, identity is not 'predetermined', but for us Jews, our forefathers made a covenant many years ago and we are bound by it, even if we don't like it. We Jews made a promise to G-d and he expects us to do as we promised.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.
HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
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I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one. Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant? Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
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Because Im Italian and American doesn't mean I don't love America.But our blood line does lead the way
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I don't like these distinctions because America is a Judeo-Christian country and the values should not conflict. If they do, however, I have to follow G-d's will and support Israel/Judaism first.
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I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history.
What do you mean the Torah is just a great book?
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I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history.
What do you mean the Torah is just a great book?
It does not impact my everyday life. I only live by its essentials.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.
HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?
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I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one. Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant? Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.
HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?
Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.
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I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one. Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant? Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.
Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat).
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.
HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?
Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.
but we always try to strive for the ideal, so we should do our best to go to Israel and be the best we can
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I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one. Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant? Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.
Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat).
Well first you have to define to me what you consider an American interest, but one example could be WW2 when America wanted to have low immigration quotas and prevent the country from being overrun with the Jewish refugees from Europe.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.
HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?
Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.
but we always try to strive for the ideal, so we should do our best to go to Israel and be the best we can
If you gave me 2 million dollars I would go to Israel tomorrow. I can't say that moving to Israel would make me a better person or a better Jew. I would just be richer and have a nice condo near the beach!
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I have to agree with Trumpeldor on this one. Considering yourself to be a loyal American isn't self-hating, and what's with all of this business about needing to choose whether either your Americanism or your Judaism is dominant? Why can't one's identity as an American AND a Jew be equal to one another?
because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.
Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat).
Well first you have to define to me what you consider an American interest, but one example could be WW2 when America wanted to have low immigration quotas and prevent the country from being overrun with the Jewish refugees from Europe.
America was not pursuing its national interest in that case. America's moral imperative to save Jews aside, do you know how much more quickly America could have recovered from the Depression had it such an influx of brains and skill?
Yes, America was deeply worried about the communist elements, but they did a good enough job deporting the Emma Goldman types out by the hundreds.
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
First, while this may not bother some, doing so is accepting the Galut (exile).
To answer your first point, so what if one is accepting the Galut? Jews lived outside of Israel for two thousand years. In that period, Jews often learned the languages of their host countries and made innumerable contributions to society and culture. Certain Sephardic Jews even rose to the highest levels of government and held the most prestigious jobs, all while making notable contributions to the Jewish religion.
And during those 2 thousand years how much persecution did we go through? We don't belong in the Galut we belong in our land, the land of Israel.
Why didn't the Jews who were expelled from Spain in 1492 go to Israel? Why didn't the Jews living in the Pale go to Israel before the 1880's? Yes, persecution is horrible but it wasn't horrible enough to compel Jews to go to their G-d-given land until the Holocaust. Even then, the preferred destination was the United States! The promised land, with streets paved in gold!
And Germany was paved in gold at a time too.....
At those times immigration to Israel was difficult because it was barren or immigration was forbidden by the occupying force. America, so far has been one of the best places for the Jews, at least in a physical sense. In a spiritual sense it has been murder. Assimilation is higher than ever and Jews increasingly are not willing to recognize that they are Jews, intermarriage is at an all time high, and the non-Orthodox movements are allowing Jews to compromise on their Judaism.
I believe intermarriage is terrible and I have a strong ethnic obligation to preserve this heritage. However, the Jewish people are not going away in America any time soon. There are 6.4 million Jews in America. Additionally, the Haredim, who never intermarry, have increased by over 100,000 in the last 6 years.
Germany was also a place where Jews prospered, but we are best in Israel. Of the 6.4 million how many are "Reformed" or non-observant "Conservative"? These movements contain a large portion of that 6.4 million and those 2 movements will fade....
Yes, Israel is ideally the best place Jews for a whole host of reasons. AND I fully support the Jews of Judea and Samaria in their struggle against the leftist Israeli establishment, the Nazified EU, the Jew-hating UN, and the Arabs.
HOWEVER, my personal place is in the United States so long as it lives up to the ideals of our founding fathers and I will do what it takes to protect those ideals. That is my responsibility as an American, even if preempts the 'covenant of the forefathers'.
but your covenant to G-d takes precedence. No one (as far as I know) has ever made a covenant with America. We have a special bond with G-d and nothing can change that, not even our own wishes.
Also if Israel is the best place for Jews what lets some be exceptions and remain in America?
Just because something is ideal doesn't mean it is practical or even desired.
but we always try to strive for the ideal, so we should do our best to go to Israel and be the best we can
If you gave me 2 million dollars I would go to Israel tomorrow. I can't say that moving to Israel would make me a better person or a better Jew. I would just be richer and have a nice condo near the beach!
There is more to life than monetary wealth. A Jew in Israel is spiritually much wealthier as there are mitzvot that can only be performed in Israel.
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A Jew in Israel is spiritually much wealthier as there are mitzvot that can only be performed in Israel.
Does that also apply to the kookly Israeli leftists?
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I think what Trumpeldor is trying to get at is that countries like America are a safe haven for all people from all walks of life to worship their beliefs without reprisal...
Unfortunately both America and Israel have gone in the toilet in recent times, but Israel is still the homeland of the jews..
I do not think it is compulsory for jews to live in Israel but they should at least have something to do with it to keep the dream alive and protect G-d's 6000 year old promise to his people...
BASICALLY WHAT HASHEM ULTIMATELY WANTS IS FOR US TO BE GOOD LOYAL PEOPLE AND TO RESPECT THOSE WHO DESERVE IT...
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Its bull to think American is our first allegiance.Im first a Christian second an Italian Jew.Then Im American.America is dead now,,,,,, who are you????????????? wayne jude!
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I think what Trumpeldor is trying to get at is that countries like America are a safe haven for all people from all walks of life to worship their beliefs without reprisal...
Unfortunately both America and Israel have gone in the toilet in recent times, but Israel is still the homeland of the jews..
I do not think it is compulsory for jews to live in Israel but they should at least have something to do with it to keep the dream alive and protect G-d's 6000 year old promise to his people...
BASICALLY WHAT HASHEM ULTIMATELY WANTS IS FOR US TO BE GOOD LOYAL PEOPLE AND TO RESPECT THOSE WHO DESERVE IT...
Thank you for that, RYF, as that accurately reflects my sentiment. However, Chaim will vehemently disagree with this and I encourage the people who agree with Chaim on this issue to take a stand.
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Its bull to think American is our first allegiance.Im first a Christian second an Italian Jew.Then Im American.America is dead now,,,,,, who are you????????????? wayne jude!
Forgive me but how can you be both a Christian and a Jew?
I know this thread is all about dual identities, but these two seem incompatible by even the most reasonable of standards.
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please Jew by blood By faith Christian.
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please Jew by blood By faith Christian.
ok ok
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because there will be times when American interests will be different from Jewish interests and at such a time we must be able to choose. We can't hide from problems, it is not easy to choose but ultimately we must.
The interests of CFR/Bilderbergs isn't the interest of Americans.
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Shouldn't the question be how people could claim to be an American and a Mexican or an American and a Muslim?
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Shouldn't the question be how people could claim to be an American and a Mexican or an American and a Muslim?
I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.
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Shouldn't the question be how people could claim to be an American and a Mexican or an American and a Muslim?
I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.
That is the exact issue I'm getting at, though at a larger scale. One has to choose. Either we are Americans or we are Jews, America has been a wonderful country but it will take us in it's wonder to the spiritual death of our people
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yes Christian and Jew alike Lou..
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I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.
Mexico tries to undermine the US and they shouldn't be trusted. If people in the US have a loyalty to Mexico, then they need to be doubted.
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I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.
Mexico tries to undermine the US and they shouldn't be trusted. If people in the US have a loyalty to Mexico, then they need to be doubted.
Perhaps the Mexican government tries to undermine the U.S. but not the Mexican people.
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I'm sure there are some Mexican-Americans who love both countries. I know that when the U.S. played Italy in the World Cup tournament, many Italian-Americans cheered for Italy.
Mexico tries to undermine the US and they shouldn't be trusted. If people in the US have a loyalty to Mexico, then they need to be doubted.
You can't expect people to give up their heritage just because they emigrated. Those that do give up their heritage should reconsider and took a look back at where they came from
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HUH?
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HUH?
people have heritage and family roots that go backmany years. For example yours are probably European , when you came to America it shouldn't be expected of you to give up your history and heritage.
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[quote author=lou13ss link=topic=9574.
That is the exact issue I'm getting at, though at a larger scale. One has to choose. Either we are Americans or we are Jews, America has been a wonderful country but it will take us in it's wonder to the spiritual death of our people
[/quote]
Israel doesn't do anything to undermine the US. Mexico and some other countries do though.
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
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Yes I get you lou.Sorry
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.
Actually, Israel pressured the U.S. to fund it. This is a fact. I read at the time that the U.S. was surprised and unpleased at Sharon's plan. Remember, Sharon was being investigated by Israel's AG for corruption at the time...
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.
Actually, Israel pressured the U.S. to fund it. This is a fact. I read at the time that the U.S. was surprised and unpleased at Sharon's plan. Remember, Sharon was being investigated by Israel's AG for corruption at the time...
Where did you read this? Anyway prove it to be a fact. It is a fact that the US has been pressuring Israel over the years, this shouldnt make us look at the Israeli gov in any better way, in fact this is furthur proof why we only need a Religious Theocracy ( I think thats the right word for it).
Anyway look at the hand of G-d at huricane Katrina- G-d doesnt send punishments if their is no sin (except very few precious Tzaddikim (I dont want to explain why right now).
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
Who do you think was doing a lot of the pressuring for this to occur, as much as I hate olmert and co, the US had a big hand in this evil policy with all the pressuring and also the $ involved.
Actually, Israel pressured the U.S. to fund it. This is a fact. I read at the time that the U.S. was surprised and unpleased at Sharon's plan. Remember, Sharon was being investigated by Israel's AG for corruption at the time...
Where did you read this? Anyway prove it to be a fact. It is a fact that the US has been pressuring Israel over the years, this shouldnt make us look at the Israeli gov in any better way, in fact this is furthur proof why we only need a Religious Theocracy ( I think thats the right word for it).
Anyway look at the hand of G-d at huricane Katrina- G-d doesnt send punishments if their is no sin (except very few precious Tzaddikim (I dont want to explain why right now).
Ehh. Bush and Rice were only lukewarm on it because it didn't conform to the Roadmap. I stand corrected.
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
The US supported Israel's withdrawl from Gaza. Maybe it was Sharon's idea, but the US government was not opposed to it.
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Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel.
The US supported Israel's withdrawl from Gaza. Maybe it was Sharon's idea, but the US government was not opposed to it.
I dont think it was Sharons idea, (not that it doesnt make him a criminal), but why would he be the person to initiate the opposite of what he was doing all of these years (to his credit we cant forget that he did build up many "settlements", and did a lot of great work, allthough since gaza, emotionally we forgot about that and cursed him, etc.).
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What about those who do not believe Israel is supposed to exist until the Messiach comes?
Also I don't see what the problem is with identifying as an American. America is made up of immigrants from all over the world.
I consider my self a patriotic Jewish American, I don't necessarily agree with the current government. I would like things to be like they were in the past how our founding fathers intended. I also celebrate American holidays such as fourth of July because I was born in America and this feels like my home.
I support Israel as well but I do not agree with the current government (Olmert) or the way Israel is today with the secular supporting homosexual parades in Jerusalem and stuff like that.
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I support Israel as well but I do not agree with the current government (Olmert) or the way Israel is today with the secular supporting homosexual parades in Jerusalem and stuff like that.
The majority of us support Israel while still disagreeing with her policies. We can't agree with many of her policies because they are blatantly un-Jewish and too often anti-Jewish......
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Exactly, Lou ,the same with the USA.I love our nation but hate our policies.
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1. Should we identify ourselves as American first, Jew second? No of course not. A Jew is a Jew, and they should always put that first. When we don't remember we are Jews, first and foremost, we begin to assimilate or vanish into nothingness like the Essenes, Sadducees and their likes. Or to worse things, much worse things; such as the Holocausts, Pogroms, Blood libels, Crusades, and expulsions, which we were tortured in while being expelled, just to name a few. One of Hitler's biggest problems with the Jews was our assimilation in to the German people, he believed we were contaminating the purity of the German race. Not to mention the ones who do put the country they are born into first before their Jewish heritage turn out to be traitors to their fellow Jews, and if they don't one of their descendants will, whether it is a child, or a grandchild, or anyone else down the line, it will happen at one point. And no, chances are if they didn't put the country they were born in first, and raised their child to do the same - even just by seeing their parent do it - and they have their child do the same or at very least influence them to do so, chances are they would not turn out to be a Teddy Kollek.
Though putting the country you are born first in is not being self-hating, it is having a lacking of true respect for yourself which can lead to becoming self-hating. Just because you are born or raised in a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be revoked. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew. You will live Jew and you will die a Jew whether you like it or not and despite all your efforts to make it not so, and the world will always see you as one as well. By denying your heritage you are denying your true self and degrading your heritage which your ancestors died for and by doing so you are shaming and degrading them.
2. "Judaism is a religion, not a nationality" - *Sigh* No Judaism is NOT just a religion, it IS a nationality and a way of life. Judaism is not like Christianity where you go to church on Sunday, listen to some sermon, accept Jesus as your savior, maybe eat a biscuit and drink some wine, and go on with your day and life. Judaism IS life, it tells you how to live from your diet to which shoe or sock to put on first and which to tie first, which to take off first, to making sure you are completely clean from waist after you go to the bathroom, to how you wash your hands after you go to the bath room, to how you raise your children, and how you speak, dress, behave and EVERYTHING else. Judaism is not just "Baruch atah hashem..." every now and then and going to Shul on Shabbat or Holidays it is so much more then that in fact it is everything.
3. "Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this." - Actually there IS genetic proof of Jews being connected and related to each other even from opposite ends of the world especially with Kohanim and Levim. If you take one from one end of the world and another from the other end of the world they will have some genetic markers in the Y-DNA. Do you have to have the genetic markers to be a Jew? No of course not. As long as you convert according to Halacha or were born one according to Halacha then you are a Jew, but there IS genetic evidence connecting many if not most Jews, so you can not say their isn’t.
4. "I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history." - The Torah is not a book, its not just a book at all and if you would really read it or study it then you would know that. Just as Judaism is not just a religion.
Can a book even an amazing one when it was written down 3320 years ago just be amazing or just a book when it has correct historical evidence written down from different nations that the nations themselves didn't have recorded correctly and then turn out to be right? Historically just about everything that was recorded in it has been proven correct - not to say that the rest has never been proven wrong, they just haven't been proven one way or the other yet. Medically everything it’s said to do or not to do has been proven to be best health wise and mercifully. This so called "book" has been historically, medically and mathematically accurate on everything, even its calendar is the only one that is correct unlike the Julian Calendar, the Chinese calendar or the Arabic calendar or any other calendar that is not a copy of it. How can a book even an amazing one do that if it is just a book? The answer; It can't.
5. Israel is a Jewish state but it is not a religious one that is why Arabs are unfortunately in government.
6. "By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews." - Let me guess you are against tribalism right? Do you know if it wasn't for Jews helping Jews and putting their own first there would be NO Jews. No one - other then the minority few who are so rare that they are practically not there at all - ever helps Jews unless to try to bring their prophecy of the "Second coming" in to effect. People should help their own first, if everyone did their would be no one left for others to help since everyone would make sure their own was taken care of. Just because you are born to a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be taken away. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew and you will die a Jew. Every action we make is reflected on and affects other Jews, that’s how it works whether we like it or not.
7. There are 5,275,000 Jews in the United States that is the most in the world after Israel it self but then again there were more in Arabic countries before they were exiled too.
8. "America existed just fine before 1948." – Of course it did, there have always been Jews in America since the time of the Pilgrims. What is your point? When it says "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you," "You" means the Jewish people, not the state of Israel. But in times where we are living in Israel it obviously goes for the home country of the Jews as well.
9. "Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel." - I don't know were you get your facts but you are extremely off base. Bush himself even said at a joint press conference with Ariel Sharon on April 11, 2005 "I strongly support [Prime Minister Sharon's] courageous initiative to disengage from Gaza and part of the West Bank. The Prime Minister is willing to coordinate the implementation of the disengagement plan with the Palestinians. I urge the Palestinian leadership to accept his offer. By working together, Israelis and Palestinians can lay the groundwork for a peaceful transition." This is just one of many things he said to support it. Further more not only did America support Israels decision to give up Gaza they gave $50 million to the "Palestinian" Authority - which is like and connected to the PLO - to be used for new housing. Do you honestly truly think that the money went to housing and not weapons? Personally I believe they had much more a hand in the idea of giving it up then is known, but that’s just my opinion.
10. "Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat)." - How about when America didn't give a damn while Jews were being slaughtered in Europe? Or when Hitler first sent all the Jews out of Germany before he started the camps and Franklin Roosevelt sent them back and by doing so not only let a boat sink but gave the green light to wipe us out? Or in the way that when we were begging America to drop some bombs on the rail rode tracks they said they couldn't that they needed every last bomb, but ended up dumping them in to the sea?
11. America, like everywhere else, is not for Israel, it is for itself. Though, unlike many places they are not willing to risk harming themselves in order to destroy us, but don't fool yourself in to thinking they are our friend, or that a holocaust can not happen here. Just like what America did to the Japanese during WWII can happen to the Jews and worse. There already have been blood libels here in the United States. What ever happened in Germany can happen here.
12. Being loyal to two countries will only get you so far; if you want to know where you stand, then figure out who you would be with if they went to war with each other.
13. G-d didn't punish the Jews of the Persian empire for celibrating a Goyish holiday, it was the fact that they were celbrating 70 years being up – or at least they thought it was - from Yirmiyahu's (Jeremiah's) prophecy of Israel returning back to their home and rebuilding the Beit Hamikdash which was a problem, along with the fact that everything there at the parties were braking Halacha. At the party the materials were made out of shatniss, the wine was forbidden, the food was not kosher, some of the cups used by the king and his court were from the Bait Hamikdash, along with MANY other things including the commentary that Achashverosh, and later on Vashti as well wore the Kohen Gadol's garments to the party.
14. "So what if someone is in and has a Gulut mentality?" - Tell me why do you think so many Jews go away? Or why the schools don't teach Torah properly? Or why we are still in Galut for that matter. If you can not answer these questions, or think that they don't matter, and that Galut is nothing then I'm sorry, but I have nothing further to say to you.
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1. Should we identify ourselves as American first, Jew second? No of course not. A Jew is a Jew, and they should always put that first. When we don't remember we are Jews, first and foremost, we begin to assimilate or vanish into nothingness like the Essenes, Sadducees and their likes. Or to worse things, much worse things; such as the Holocausts, Pogroms, Blood libels, Crusades, and expulsions, which we were tortured in while being expelled, just to name a few. One of Hitler's biggest problems with the Jews was our assimilation in to the German people, he believed we were contaminating the purity of the German race. Not to mention the ones who do put the country they are born into first before their Jewish heritage turn out to be traitors to their fellow Jews, and if they don't one of their descendants will, whether it is a child, or a grandchild, or anyone else down the line, it will happen at one point. And no, chances are if they didn't put the country they were born in first, and raised their child to do the same - even just by seeing their parent do it - and they have their child do the same or at very least influence them to do so, chances are they would not turn out to be a Teddy Kollek.
Though putting the country you are born first in is not being self-hating, it is having a lacking of true respect for yourself which can lead to becoming self-hating. Just because you are born or raised in a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be revoked. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew. You will live Jew and you will die a Jew whether you like it or not and despite all your efforts to make it not so, and the world will always see you as one as well. By denying your heritage you are denying your true self and degrading your heritage which your ancestors died for and by doing so you are shaming and degrading them.
2. "Judaism is a religion, not a nationality" - *Sigh* No Judaism is NOT just a religion, it IS a nationality and a way of life. Judaism is not like Christianity where you go to church on Sunday, listen to some sermon, accept Jesus as your savior, maybe eat a biscuit and drink some wine, and go on with your day and life. Judaism IS life, it tells you how to live from your diet to which shoe or sock to put on first and which to tie first, which to take off first, to making sure you are completely clean from waist after you go to the bathroom, to how you wash your hands after you go to the bath room, to how you raise your children, and how you speak, dress, behave and EVERYTHING else. Judaism is not just "Baruch atah hashem..." every now and then and going to Shul on Shabbat or Holidays it is so much more then that in fact it is everything.
3. "Judaism is a race now? There is no biological evidence of this." - Actually there IS genetic proof of Jews being connected and related to each other even from opposite ends of the world especially with Kohanim and Levim. If you take one from one end of the world and another from the other end of the world they will have some genetic markers in the Y-DNA. Do you have to have the genetic markers to be a Jew? No of course not. As long as you convert according to Halacha or were born one according to Halacha then you are a Jew, but there IS genetic evidence connecting many if not most Jews, so you can not say their isn’t.
4. "I don't believe that an identity is 'predetermined' as you are arguing. I view the Torah as a great book; nothing more, nothing less. I view Jewish history as exciting and uniquely interesting. However, as great as an affinity I have for both, I have a greater appreciation for the U.S. constitution and for American history." - The Torah is not a book, its not just a book at all and if you would really read it or study it then you would know that. Just as Judaism is not just a religion.
Can a book even an amazing one when it was written down 3320 years ago just be amazing or just a book when it has correct historical evidence written down from different nations that the nations themselves didn't have recorded correctly and then turn out to be right? Historically just about everything that was recorded in it has been proven correct - not to say that the rest has never been proven wrong, they just haven't been proven one way or the other yet. Medically everything it’s said to do or not to do has been proven to be best health wise and mercifully. This so called "book" has been historically, medically and mathematically accurate on everything, even its calendar is the only one that is correct unlike the Julian Calendar, the Chinese calendar or the Arabic calendar or any other calendar that is not a copy of it. How can a book even an amazing one do that if it is just a book? The answer; It can't.
5. Israel is a Jewish state but it is not a religious one that is why Arabs are unfortunately in government.
6. "By virtue of being born in America, I am an American. I have difficulty accepting why the Torah, as wonderful as it is, makes me a Jew with foremost responsibilities to other Jews." - Let me guess you are against tribalism right? Do you know if it wasn't for Jews helping Jews and putting their own first there would be NO Jews. No one - other then the minority few who are so rare that they are practically not there at all - ever helps Jews unless to try to bring their prophecy of the "Second coming" in to effect. People should help their own first, if everyone did their would be no one left for others to help since everyone would make sure their own was taken care of. Just because you are born to a country doesn't mean anything more then you are a citizen of that country and even that could be taken away. If you are born a Jew, you are a Jew and you will die a Jew. Every action we make is reflected on and affects other Jews, that’s how it works whether we like it or not.
7. There are 5,275,000 Jews in the United States that is the most in the world after Israel it self but then again there were more in Arabic countries before they were exiled too.
8. "America existed just fine before 1948." – Of course it did, there have always been Jews in America since the time of the Pilgrims. What is your point? When it says "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you," "You" means the Jewish people, not the state of Israel. But in times where we are living in Israel it obviously goes for the home country of the Jews as well.
9. "Israel undermined the U.S. when it willingly gave Gaza to the Arabs. When the Arabs predictably elected Hamas, an organization that is labeled a terrorist organization by our state dep't, America couldn't have been too thrilled with Israel." - I don't know were you get your facts but you are extremely off base. Bush himself even said at a joint press conference with Ariel Sharon on April 11, 2005 "I strongly support [Prime Minister Sharon's] courageous initiative to disengage from Gaza and part of the West Bank. The Prime Minister is willing to coordinate the implementation of the disengagement plan with the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis. I urge the PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi leadership to accept his offer. By working together, Israelis and PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazis can lay the groundwork for a peaceful transition." This is just one of many things he said to support it. Further more not only did America support Israels decision to give up Gaza they gave $50 million to the "PLO/Hamas Arab Muslim Nazi" Authority - which is like and connected to the PLO - to be used for new housing. Do you honestly truly think that the money went to housing and not weapons? Personally I believe they had much more a hand in the idea of giving it up then is known, but that’s just my opinion.
10. "Please give me an example when Jewish and American interests have previously conflicted (other than a baseball playoff game occurring on Shabbat)." - How about when America didn't give a damn while Jews were being slaughtered in Europe? Or when Hitler first sent all the Jews out of Germany before he started the camps and Franklin Roosevelt sent them back and by doing so not only let a boat sink but gave the green light to wipe us out? Or in the way that when we were begging America to drop some bombs on the rail rode tracks they said they couldn't that they needed every last bomb, but ended up dumping them in to the sea?
11. America, like everywhere else, is not for Israel, it is for itself. Though, unlike many places they are not willing to risk harming themselves in order to destroy us, but don't fool yourself in to thinking they are our friend, or that a holocaust can not happen here. Just like what America did to the Japanese during WWII can happen to the Jews and worse. There already have been blood libels here in the United States. What ever happened in Germany can happen here.
12. Being loyal to two countries will only get you so far; if you want to know where you stand, then figure out who you would be with if they went to war with each other.
13. G-d didn't punish the Jews of the Persian empire for celibrating a Goyish holiday, it was the fact that they were celbrating 70 years being up – or at least they thought it was - from Yirmiyahu's (Jeremiah's) prophecy of Israel returning back to their home and rebuilding the Beit Hamikdash which was a problem, along with the fact that everything there at the parties were braking Halacha. At the party the materials were made out of shatniss, the wine was forbidden, the food was not kosher, some of the cups used by the king and his court were from the Bait Hamikdash, along with MANY other things including the commentary that Achashverosh, and later on Vashti as well wore the Kohen Gadol's garments to the party.
14. "So what if someone is in and has a Gulut mentality?" - Tell me why do you think so many Jews go away? Or why the schools don't teach Torah properly? Or why we are still in Galut for that matter. If you can not answer these questions, or think that they don't matter, and that Galut is nothing then I'm sorry, but I have nothing further to say to you.
This is quite a bit of information and it will take me some time to read critically and ponder before I respond. Thanks for your interesting post.
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please Jew by blood By faith Christian.
Have you never thought of returning to Judaism? You are fuly Jewish if your mother is a Jewess. You only need to say Shema Yisrael, and return!!!!
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What is so wrong with identifying foremost as an American?
the problem is Hashem see's you as a Jew first who is in exil, and sooner or later will go back to Israel where he wants you.
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Yacov is right.
I am Christian first, human second, American third.
I love my country but would still never put it above my basic faith identity.
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This is quite a bit of information and it will take me some time to read critically and ponder before I respond. Thanks for your interesting post.
No problem ;)