Haredi idealism: keep Ashkenaz & Sefard education separate

[muman613]

I don't see any lashon hara. There's no gossip going on.

It really depends on how you view the Haredim. It would seem even some Kahanist Jews fear the Haredim's influence and practices. To these Jews, speaking out against them would not be lashon hara.

What do some leading rabbis say about the Haredim in Israel?

Fear the Haredim.. I find that hard to believe. These people are not violent {unless you intend to violate Shabbat}...

Also the fact that you fear someone gives you no right to violate commandments [I am talking about between a Jew and another Jew]... The correct thing for a Jew to do would be to rebuke the wrongdoer..

Lashon Hara only applies to Jews talking about another Jew... Jews can , though they should not, speak derogotorily against non-Jews though. It would only possibly be a violation of Chillul Hashem {a desecration of Hashems name}.

[TheCoon]

By fear, I mean that they fear what Israel might be like if the Haredim ever became a ruling force.

I've listened to videos where Chaim spoke out against the Haredim during WW2 and currently in Israel. I'm pretty sure Rabbi Kahane was not a fan either, though please don't quote me at that.

Is it not possible that someone speaking against the Haredim could fulfill the 7 requirements of lashon hara? I may be wrong(likely), but it seems to depend on how you view the Haredim.

[muman613]

By fear, I mean that they fear what Israel might be like if the Haredim ever became a ruling force.

I've listened to videos where Chaim spoke out against the Haredim during WW2 and currently in Israel. I'm pretty sure Rabbi Kahane was not a fan either, though please don't quote me at that.

Is it not possible that someone speaking against the Haredim could fulfill the 7 requirements of lashon hara? I may be wrong(likely), but it seems to depend on how you view the Haredim.

I believe wonga66 said "The Haredim are irrelevant"... I don't know the context of that statement though..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

One's got to admire the Haredim... this time to prevent the High Court forcing  them to put Sefardi & Ashkenazi girls together

Funny how you adopt the notions and the premises of the Jew-hating media and courts and then defend the indefensible behavior.  In reality, at least according to other information I've seen in this very thread, they are NOT actually trying to separate sephardim and ashkenazim with this school.

I'm not sure who is telling the truth about this issue, but you seem to have a major problem.  You do the same thing with far-leftist wackjob claim that religious Jews are nazi.   Rather than deny their idiotic premise since it's incorrect, you actually accept their premise and then try to defend a 'jewish' form of nazism.    You are warped, buddy.    Get the facts straight and argue the facts.   Don't just adopt the leftists' agenda - you're doing them a favor.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ariel,

If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara?

I think you misunderstood.  He was saying the article (someone else posted, not him) was lashon hara and so he included instead the context that the article omitted.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If I was a parent and I was told I had to send my kids to a school that taught the Reform and Reconstructionalist ideas of Judaism I would be militantly against it. -- How many of us would feel the same way?

That's not a valid comparison.  Reform and reconstructionist are not Judaism.  "Less Machmir" (supposedly) is still Judaism.   "More machmir" is not any more or less Judaism (actually sometimes it's less - in certain cases one is an apikorus for being machmir - that's a whole discussion).

[White Israelite]

What is reconstructionist Judaism?

[TheCoon]

What is reconstructionist Judaism?

Some wacky lefty "rabbi"'s coked-out take on real Judaism. I'm reading about it now. Sounds extreme-lefty, even compared to reform Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

and have a law unto themselves.

That's what JUDAISM is.   A law of its own.   Do you really claim to be a Kahanist and expect that Supreme court law will override Jewish law?   Give me a break.  This is nothing particular to haredim, this is what any normal healthy Jewish society would say - Torah law is above all.   The only religious Jews who don't feel that way are certain factions within religious zionism, and those people have a twisted hashkafa in which they promote the state law as "holy" even if it contradicts Torah - this is a sick approach caused by a warped way of viewing the state which is quasi-idolatrous.   But many many in the national religious camp do not agree that state of Israel comes above Torah.

And when you say haredim are the reason Gush Katif happened, you are mistaken.  (They didn't do anything to stop it, but how do you say they caused it?  That's ridiculous.  The secular establishment were the perpetrators).   The state-worshipping fascism of mamlactiut is really what enabled Gush Katif to happen.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

By fear, I mean that they fear what Israel might be like if the Haredim ever became a ruling force.

That's an oxymoron.  The haredim as they are constituted do not intend to rule the country or "become a ruling force" because they don't believe in national principles or national leadership!

Unless there is a major change in philosophy, there is nothing to even talk about.   Their current philosophy has no interest in determining national vision because they don't believe there is even need for a national vision.  They are sectarian by definition.  I can never understand the people who trot out the "haredi-iranian theocracy" boogeyman.  I think people in the media mention these ideas because they simply hate religious Jews, not because there is any sense behind what they are speaking about.

I've listened to videos where Chaim spoke out against the Haredim during WW2 and currently in Israel. I'm pretty sure Rabbi Kahane was not a fan either, though please don't quote me at that. 

Chaim spoke against haredim?   I think that's an anachronism to call them "haredi" in the war-period.  Haredism is a modern movement taken on by a major sector of Orthodox Jewry, but to call groups of pre-war and war-period Jews as haredim?  Who were the haredim exactly? 

As to Rabbi Kahane, 1. He was "haredi" only with a national vision to Judaism, the national vision of old as taught by the sages and lost in galut, and 2.  Rabbi Kahane (and Chaim as well) speak against all types of Jews during the holocaust (not victims of course) because all types of Jewish so-called leaders did nothing to help save their fellow Jews.

[New Yorker]

If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!

Sadly you forgot arrogant.

Why do you call them arrogant? What have they done which is arrogant. in your opinion?

Sometimes I am amazed at the amount of Lashon Hara which is expressed against Jews who are probrobly more observant than any of us here are... It really makes me wonder about this group..

It's not arrogant to think that you are superior to the Sephardi? That you're so superior you can't tolerate some Sephardic girls sitting in the same classroom as your superior kids that are following the "only perfect" form of Judaism? Of course they are arrogant! Their arrogance is self-evident from this very issue.

[wonga66]

That's a quote from Rabbi Kahane. And it's still so true. Until the Haredim get physical, they are irrelevant! Unfortunately they persist in the Golus attitude of merely being Jewish poltroons.

I believe wonga66 said "The Haredim are irrelevant"... I don't know the context of that statement though..

[TheCoon]

Do the Haredim reject military service?

[wonga66]

Most Haredi youth would accept doing 1 year in the army, provided their rabbis agreed and their religious requirements were met.

When the Haredim are put in to all-Haredi units, they make better soldiers than the chillonim, and even better than the knitted kippots!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!

Sadly you forgot arrogant.

Why do you call them arrogant? What have they done which is arrogant. in your opinion?

Sometimes I am amazed at the amount of Lashon Hara which is expressed against Jews who are probrobly more observant than any of us here are... It really makes me wonder about this group..

It's not arrogant to think that you are superior to the Sephardi? That you're so superior you can't tolerate some Sephardic girls sitting in the same classroom as your superior kids that are following the "only perfect" form of Judaism? Of course they are arrogant! Their arrogance is self-evident from this very issue.

I agree with you, however I think there is still reason to protest in this scenario.

The court is trying to strong-arm the parents into "abiding by their ruling" and "accepting their authority."  There is no need for this.   I agree with the court in ending the segregation within that particular school, but for the parents who do not abide by the decision and choose to send their kids elsewhere (as stubborn and hateful, or just ignorant, as that may be) what right does the court have to say they are going to force them to keep their kids in the same school and do what the court says as some kind of example or else go to jail?   The arrogance of the Israeli supreme court knows no limits.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Most Haredi youth would accept doing 1 year in the army, provided their rabbis agreed and their religious requirements were met. 

What are you talking about?  If the rabbis said it was good for them and the Torah way, of course they would "agree!"  They do what their rabbis say.   They are only against army service because their rabbis, parents, newspapers, friends etc etc all tell them it is evil.  Mainly the rabbis.  Thus they determine that "since the rabbi says it, Judaism says it's evil and therefore G-d forbid that I join the idol worship army."    So you are once again in a dreamworld when you say "if their rabbis agreed."   The situation is NOT that most haredi kids are clamoring to get into the army but no one will let them.  Most have been brainwashed that army is not suitable for them, that it will lead them off the derech, that it's not the Jewish thing to do, etc etc, and haredi masses as they are now are highly against army service philosophically.  That's simply a fact, say what you like about it.

When the Haredim are put in to all-Haredi units, they make better soldiers than the chillonim, and even better than the knitted kippots!

A lot of the soldiers in nahal haredi unit are actually dati leumi.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

That's a quote from Rabbi Kahane. And it's still so true. Until the Haredim get physical, they are irrelevant! Unfortunately they persist in the Golus attitude of merely being Jewish poltroons.

I believe wonga66 said "The Haredim are irrelevant"... I don't know the context of that statement though..

Ok but that's not what thunderbolt referred to when he suggested Rabbi Kahane "spoke against haredim."  You must not have understood his post.

Or are you telling us that when you frequently quote that statement, you are actually coming here to "speak against haredim" and use that quote to do so?   Is that really your motivation?   To "speak against" haredim?   This is sick baseless hatred.   Surely this cannot be so.  And don't dare suggest that that was what Rabbi Kahane was doing with a statement like that.

[Lisa]

For the life of me, I can't understand the problem religious Jews like the Haredi have with military service.  If being a warrior was good enough for Joshua and King David, what's this whole business about the army being un-Jewish?

Also, if they're not Zionists, why do they bother to live in Israel?  

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For the life of me, I can't understand the problem religious Jews like the Haredi have with military service.  If being a warrior was good enough for Joshua and King David, what's this whole business about the army being un-Jewish?

Also, if they're not Zionists, why do they bother to live in Israel?  

Good questions! 

Not that I know the answers but I'll offer my opinion.  I think it ultimately stems from their lack of national outlook and the lack of nationalistic component to Judaism which eroded and disappeared in the galut and which they have yet to resurrect.  They don't consider that they are a warrior defending the Jewish people, they see it as "joining the state's institutions" and to them the state is just a phony entity claiming to be Jewish, not a national expression of the Jewish collective experience or sovereign national home.   So indeed to live in Israel while having these views requires a great deal of cognitive dissonance.   They view it as basically a Poland that just happens to sit on top of the eretz Yisrael of the Bible that G-d promised us so there is more value to the mitzvah's in this poland-diaspora than there would be in an actual poland but both are equally diaspora where the state is at best something that allows religious observance and at worst impedes religious life or is a nuisance but has nothing to do with Jewish past, present, or future except to currently house us.

[MassuhDGoodName]

You can't fool me !

That guy in the very middle is Charlie Sheen!

[Ben m]

israeli haredis are worms.they doesn't had to do a military service and they don't pay their taxes.and tey suck away money from the country like milk.

[wonga66]

What the Haredim are afraid of is the influence of living cheek and jowl with irreligious Israelis - male & female - for three years - irreligious meaning they don't believe in Torah or G-d, keep nothing, know nothing: not shabbos, not tefillah, not Tefillin, not kashrus, not brochos, no Torah study - practice pritzus and ridicule, will forceably cut off your peyos etc etc. I also wouldn't be too happy!

Those Haredim who entered frum in the 50s and 60s almost invariably not only came out un-Frum - they came out virulently  ANTI-Frum! Even an idealistic chilloni Zionist, after 3 years in Zahal, will emerge a anti-Jewish and a non-Zionist and flee to New York & California. with an enduring bitter bitter hate for the Israeli system!

The solution is all-Frum units like Netzach Yehuda batallion.

As for conscription of Haredi girls in to the army: the Chazon Ish told Ben Gurion in 1951 that the Haredi world would rather martyr itself to death rather than see its virginal daughters sexually ravished by rampant lothario lecherous profligate Israeli secularist Zahal officers! Ben Gurion saw that the Chazon Ish really meant it and backed off. Had Haredi girls been conscripted in 1951, the Haredi would have become totally extinct today: the deleterious effects of 3 years in Zahal is that bad!



When a Haredi really believes that he's on a Mission from G-d and doing a Kiddush Hashem, he is eminently capable of dying for his beliefs - a Jewish shaheed - and I think soon there will be some bloodshed and Haredi deaths.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

living cheek and jowl with irreligious Israelis - male & female - for three years - irreligious meaning they don't believe in Torah or G-d, keep nothing, know nothing: not shabbos, not tefillah, not Tefillin, not kashrus, not brochos, no Torah study - practice pritzus and ridicule, will forceably cut off your peyos etc etc. I also wouldn't be too happy!   

There are many Dati units where none of this happens like you describe.  I have heard so many kiruv rabbis (apologists for the standard haredi line) and haredi Jews say similar propaganda to what you are propagating here, and yet close to none of it is true.  If they really want to keep all of those things, they can join dati units, or they can expand the nahal haredi units and there is certainly no problem there, as their level of tzniut (or obsessiveness) is even greater than the by-design dati units.

Also, it's not really true that the "haredim" are afraid of this, really it's the parents are afraid of it for their 18 year old kids because they have been convinced by rabbis that this is the ultimate danger.  However, there are army units with regular davening, Torah learning etc.   And why would such a Jew stop putting on tefillin or stop making brachot?

Let's not even go into the fact that some dati kids join up in "mixed units" (mixed of dati and secular Jews) and then are a shining example to the chilonim by spending their precious free time doing all of those things by free will which you claim are nonexistent in the army, and as a result immensely impressing the puzzled seculars.  What's the matter, haredim can only keep Torah if someone forces them to?   I don't believe that for a second.   I understand 18 year olds are impressionable and some are not as frum as the others deep down but only hold on because of societal pressure, but give me a break, they are not all just trembling in fear that if they break anything society will jump on them and are just waiting for freedom somehow some way.  Many like Judaism and like being who they are.    And if they are all only doing it because they are forced like you suggest, that has defeated the whole purpose of Judaism, and that means their beliefs are really completely empty and phony.   Do you really believe that about them?     I doubt it.   Please comprehend what exactly you are saying.

Those Haredim who entered frum in the 50s and 60s almost invariably not only came out un-Frum - they came out virulently  ANTI-Frum! Even an idealistic chilloni Zionist, after 3 years in Zahal, will emerge a anti-Jewish and a non-Zionist and flee to New York & California. with an enduring bitter bitter hate for the Israeli system! 

Please cite proof.

What haredim that entered?  When?     Have an empirical measure of how "anti-frum" a person is, what percentage become that, or a measure for "anti-zionist" and the statistics to back up your point?   No, because you speak in crazed hyperbole here.

As for conscription of Haredi girls in to the army: the Chazon Ish told Ben Gurion in 1951 that the Haredi world would rather martyr itself to death rather than see its virginal daughters sexually ravished by rampant lothario lecherous profligate Israeli secularist Zahal officers!

The Chazon Ish said no such thing and did not talk in such a disgusting manner like you do.  How dare you put such primitive words in his mouth?   He did stress that the society would not allow their daughters taken into army and indeed Mr. Green backed off.   But girls in the army is not the issue.   The issue and the problem is with the men.    Bringing up the issue of girls is just obfuscating the issue and more excuse-making.   

 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

israeli haredis are worms.

You sound just like Goebbels.

[Ben m]

israeli haredis are worms.

You sound just like Goebbels.

at least i am going to serve in the army and pay my taxes and not suck up money from the government.