Abortion when raped

[Dr. Dan]

Of course, why should she keep childe that were "given" to her brutally and in compulsive proceeding.

No one said she has to keep it. As soon as the innocent baby is born she can put it up for adoption. She can't MURDER the baby though, not when its 5 months old in mommy's stomach, or when he is 5 years old, or 15, or 50. MURDER is wrong, and you can't kill someone because they bring you bad memories.

I would be willing to accept that if the unborn child is at a point that even though it is in the womb, if out of it can survive without the mother as equivalent to life...this as a precaution fence.

[Dr. Dan]

I can't believe that the yes out-votes no at this point, and even that there are this many yes's at all.  Abortion is murder unless it is to save the mothers life.  Because the potential for life does not supercede life itself.

I don't see why people chose to overlook these facts and logic.

Raphael, you are entitled to your views...However, Gd forbid, your wife gets brutally raped..and she doesn't want ot keep the baby...and you'll divorce her unless she goes to full term and gives it up for adoption...and after she does that she divorces your or the rest of your marraige is a bitter marriage you the two of you no longer procreate...How sad! How sad!

[Dr. Dan]

No one said she has to keep it. As soon as the innocent baby is born she can put it up for adoption. 

Yisrael, but what if there is a war or famine going on, and nobody is willing to adopt a baby? Would she then be obligated to keep the baby and raise it or would she be justified in laying it by the road for someone to find?

I don't have any objection to abortions. It is very clear to me that life begins at birth. I consider myself a person with the absolutely unerring ear for what is moral. I have qualms about situations that no one else gives a second thought to. And yet I have absolutely no qualms about abortions. I listen to myself: no, nothing, everything is quiet. If the Torah were against abortions, I would think that mine is a peculiar case of selective moral deafness. But it does not. As Dannycookie57 says, the case about a woman who miscarries through the fault of someone else, is the case in point. She is owed a fine, which goes to show that a fetus is viewed as a personal property, not a life. I agree with this interpretation.

Thank you masha and shabbat shalom and to all have a  good shabbat and weekend.

[Ulli]

I think this is a difficult question. I don't want to judge in this special case, because I have no answer.

But the left wing pro-choice lobby makes with this special case promotion. Not only for the legalization of abortion, but for the more worse thing, namely the social acceptance. In Germany only three percent of all abortions have a rape or medical background.

We must be carefull, that we step not in the trap of the pro-choice lobby.

[Ulli]

Perhaps someone can add a thrird point to the poll, that reflect my position.

I.e.: Undecided

[Ehud]

First of all, this poll doesn't make it clear what trimester the abortion would occur, so the people who are against abortion in this case I assume are against abortion even in the first month or so. 

Calling the abortion of a one-month old fetus a "human being" is against all logic and common sense.  A one month old, or even a few month old fetus, is not a human being, therefore it's killing cannot be called murder.  Do we look at a miscarriage of a fetus of a few months in the same way as a murder or the tragic death of a living, breathing human being?  Murder is the killing of a human being, and at least in the United States, there is a clear understanding of what a human being is.  Surely you cannot say that it is just as evil and wrong to abort a two month old fetus as it is to murder one of the members of this forum.  It DOES become murder later in the fetus's development, when it is nearing the phase where it could be fully viable outside of the womb.  You can call it something else, fetuside, or some other term, but calling it murder is disingenuous and faulty. 

[kellymaureen]

The embryonic heart beats 22 days after conception, this is visible on an ultrasound, at about 6 weeks the heart can be heard through a doppler device....is it a fully formed human?...it doesnt resemble one but has the full 46 chromosomes that make up a human being and a beating heart.
Abortion is legal, and its the womans choice, I certainly felt indifferent about it until I became a mother, now I couldnt imagine having one, unless my own life was in danger.

[Ehud]

The embryonic heart beats 22 days after conception, this is visible on an ultrasound, at about 6 weeks the heart can be heard through a doppler device....is it a fully formed human?...it doesnt resemble one but has the full 46 chromosomes that make up a human being and a beating heart.
Abortion is legal, and its the womans choice, I certainly felt indifferent about it until I became a mother, now I couldnt imagine having one, unless my own life was in danger.

Yes, sure it has some of the essential body parts, but what makes a human being a human being?  Is hit having a beating heart, or having chromosomes?  Being a full human being in the most basic sense is having a mind that is capable of some thought, the ability to perceive and experience the world, the ability to feel and have human emotions like happiness.  Babies who are viable and in the womb are capable of all these things.  They kick and sense themselves in the mother's womb and even smile.  A two month fetus probably cannot feel, has no functioning brain to speak of, cannot think at all, he probably has no awareness that he even exists.  To me, that is not a full human being. 

[kellymaureen]

The embryonic heart beats 22 days after conception, this is visible on an ultrasound, at about 6 weeks the heart can be heard through a doppler device....is it a fully formed human?...it doesnt resemble one but has the full 46 chromosomes that make up a human being and a beating heart.
Abortion is legal, and its the womans choice, I certainly felt indifferent about it until I became a mother, now I couldnt imagine having one, unless my own life was in danger.

Yes, sure it has some of the essential body parts, but what makes a human being a human being?  Is hit having a beating heart, or having chromosomes?  Being a full human being in the most basic sense is having a mind that is capable of some thought, the ability to perceive and experience the world, the ability to feel and have human emotions like happiness.  Babies who are viable and in the womb are capable of all these things.  They kick and sense themselves in the mother's womb and even smile.  A two month fetus probably cannot feel, has no functioning brain to speak of, cannot think at all, he probably has no awareness that he even exists.  To me, that is not a full human being. 

True, and it is a womans choice, but fully formed human or not, hearing that babys heartbeat for the first time is amazing, I couldnt simply get rid of it because it may not feel anything, but women are free to do as they please. thats my personal choice not to.

[Ulli]

I am against the pro choice position. But the moral weight of abortion is a difficult question. I think it is an evil crime. But the ill has a lot of nuances. Some people compare the practic of abortion even with the holocaust. I think this is not justifiable. Between no evil and total evil are a couple of steps. I sort the practic of abortion in this scale in the upper part. But there are some worse crimes.

I think one obviously aspect of abortion is the undermining of the worth of human life. Another is the destruction of familie-values.

But in this special case of this thread i am undecided.

[firster555]

I am wondering how many people here that voted against abortion in the case of rape are parents of a teenage daughter. Well, let me tell you, what I as one think. Yes, not only would I support abortion in this case but if it were my daughter I would hunt down the rapist to the ends of the earth and perform another abortion. As for the laws of my country and the laws of my God, I will deal with those consequences.
As for taking precautions against rape, it can happen anytime, anywhere, even in your home by intruders.
God may forgive the rapist, but I won't. Yes, I am a Christian and know I am not supposed to think this way, but I am also human, and as I said, I will have to suffer the consequences.

[kellymaureen]

I agree, childbirth is dangerous for young girls and they shouldnt be put through it, besides they arent adults able to make choices like that, there are always special circumstances to the abortion issue.

Id hunt the rapist down and put a bullet in his head then pay the consequences later.

[Vito]

I agree, childbirth is dangerous for young girls and they shouldnt be put through it, besides they arent adults able to make choices like that, there are always special circumstances to the abortion issue.

Id hunt the rapist down and put a bullet in his head then pay the consequences later.

Nah, I'd rather hear him scream after I push him off a cliff.

[kellymaureen]

Lol...cliffs... Im afraid of heights, Ill have to improvise, maybe take out his knees and a few other key areas all the while saying oops, sorry Im a bad shot:P...

[Vito]

Lol...cliffs... Im afraid of heights, Ill have to improvise, maybe take out his knees and a few other key areas all the while saying oops, sorry Im a bad shot:P...

Hah, what a woman 

I don't know.. I seem to have a thing with throwing savages off of bridges and cliffs. But for our acrophobics, we can use the "Kelly Approach" 

[Kiwi]

I agree, childbirth is dangerous for young girls and they shouldnt be put through it, besides they arent adults able to make choices like that, there are always special circumstances to the abortion issue.

Id hunt the rapist down and put a bullet in his head then pay the consequences later.

I only thing I would add is before the bullet, make him cut his own twig and berrys off, then shot away 

[kellymaureen]

And I would be lying because Im really not a bad shot

[Vito]

I agree, childbirth is dangerous for young girls and they shouldnt be put through it, besides they arent adults able to make choices like that, there are always special circumstances to the abortion issue.

Id hunt the rapist down and put a bullet in his head then pay the consequences later.

I only thing I would add is before the bullet, make him cut his own twig and berrys off, then shot away 

And I would be lying because Im really not a bad shot

Where can you find better women than on the JTF forum?

[Kiwi]

And I would be lying because Im really not a bad shot

You place the gun squarely between his eyes against the skin, you can't miss. Any way most clips have 14 rounds, ones bound to hit 

[Kiwi]

conception makes it a human life, the moment when the first cell divides.

[Wayne Jude]

Back off VIto.LOL!LOL

[Vito]

Back off VIto.LOL!LOL

They're both too old for me Wayne. But I'm no Casanova, so it wouldn't help if they were my age either lol

[Kiwi]

Wow ok now don't I feel special 

[Vito]

Wow ok now don't I feel special 

Umm... ok, you're not too old.. I'm too young for you 

[Kiwi]

Wow ok now don't I feel special 

Umm... ok, you're not too old.. I'm too young for you 

Yes much better