how an old earth does not contradict the torah, and even has some support

[q_q_]

He predicted with precision the end of two Arab Israeli wars and the fall of communist Russia when no one else dared say such things.

There were many more predictions but those three are the most publicized.

Suppose that he had ruach hakodesh.. You said so yourself.

So he could have predicting things with divine help.

That does not make somebody a Navi.

And by the way.
The idea that a rabbi with ruach hakodesh saying that he is moshiach, makes it so.
That is not in the RAMBAM.

The RAMBAM lists requirements, that's it.

FOR THE TENTH TIME. READ WHAT THE RAMBAM SAYS SOMEONE MUST DO TO BECOME A NAVI. THEN COME BACK TO ME AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT THE REBBE DID AND COMPARE. WE DON'T JUST MAKE THIS STUFF UP OURSELVES. YOU NEED TO LOOK IN THE BOOKS.

I probably don't have the text at hand. But what exactly are you suggesting I read?
Book and Chapter ?

And do you think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe's predictions are any greater than the prediction of a rabbi 200 years ago, who looked at a midrash about rabbis going on a journey in the water and realising that they were on a giant fish. And he said, this teaches that one day the jewish people are going to rule over another in the land of israel, and were moshiach not to come(or if moshiach doesn't come), they would be thrown into the sea.

Of course We believe moshiach has to come regardless.


But if the lubavitcher was a navi.. Wouldn't that "prophecy" make that rabbi a "navi" in your eyes.

There is no evidence there of visions or dreams.

The RAMBAM says that in the messianic era, prophecy will be restored. You are assuming we are in the messianic era. And that we have prophets.. All these assumptions are off base.

According to the RAMBAM, A Navi when he receives his prophecy falls flat on his face and has visions and/or  dreams.  (Besides correctly predicting the future). This is in The Guide. BY THE RAMBAM.

[Lubab]

Learn what Rabbi Moshe Feinstein said about what "the wars of G-d" means. Read Rabbi Wolpos detailed analysis on all the places where that phrase show up throughout Torah literature.

Also learn about the Rebbe's role in the death of Stalin and his strategic advisory of Israeli military intelligence officials in the actual physical wars.

Ask and learn with an open mind. Don't just criticize. At this point your just brining up questions that I have already answered several times.

[Lubab]

He predicted with precision the end of two Arab Israeli wars and the fall of communist Russia when no one else dared say such things.

There were many more predictions but those three are the most publicized.

Suppose that he had ruach hakodesh.. You said so yourself.

So he could have predicting things with divine help.

That does not make somebody a Navi.

And by the way.
The idea that a rabbi with ruach hakodesh saying that he is moshiach, makes it so.
That is not in the RAMBAM.

The RAMBAM lists requirements, that's it.

FOR THE TENTH TIME. READ WHAT THE RAMBAM SAYS SOMEONE MUST DO TO BECOME A NAVI. THEN COME BACK TO ME AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT THE REBBE DID AND COMPARE. WE DON'T JUST MAKE THIS STUFF UP OURSELVES. YOU NEED TO LOOK IN THE BOOKS.

I probably don't have the text at hand. But what exactly are you suggesting I read?
Book and Chapter ?

And do you think that the Lubavitcher Rebbe's predictions are any greater than the prediction of a rabbi 200 years ago, who looked at a midrash about rabbis going on a journey in the water and realising that they were on a giant fish. And he said, this teaches that one day the jewish people are going to rule over another in the land of israel, and were moshiach not to come(or if moshiach doesn't come), they would be thrown into the sea.

Of course We believe moshiach has to come regardless.


But if the lubavitcher was a navi.. Wouldn't that "prophecy" make that rabbi a "navi" in your eyes.

There is no evidence there of visions or dreams.

The RAMBAM says that in the messianic era, prophecy will be restored. You are assuming we are in the messianic era. And that we have prophets.. All these assumptions are off base.

According to the RAMBAM, A Navi when he receives his prophecy falls flat on his face and has visions and/or  dreams.  (Besides correctly predicting the future). This is in The Guide. BY THE RAMBAM.

Learn Hichcos yesodei Hatorah 10:5 before forming such a steadfast opinion.
2 ways it can happen. It's there in black and white. He needs to predict major events "paam achar paam" (again and again...three times is sufficient) or an already proven navi needs to testify that the other person is a navi. The Rebbe had both of those.

[Bruicy Kibbutz]

Someone explain who RAMBAB was and if he was bad.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And about predicting the future, it does not always make someone a Prophet. For example I can predict that the price of oil is going to be over 200$ a barrel in a year from now, but that does not make me a Prophet (if it comes true). One would have to see the exact words of the L Rebbe, and if what he said was totally unpredictable and yett he was able to make the predictions precisly, and even with that it is not enough, because their are also people who know these types of things, yett are involved and get it from Tummah. OR even some religious people who can read hands, faces, etc. but it is a science and does not necessarily prove one thing or another.  
 + About the lubavitchers learning about Moshiach, thus qualifying them more than anyone else on the subject as you said- as I and others have seen- they first believed in the L Rebbe to be Moshiach and THEN looked at different sources in Torah to try to make the picture fitt, it is not different then the xtian missionaries who try to prove that yeshu was the messiah, by bringing Jewish texts and reinterpreting them to fitt their belief.
 + maybe not only to do with the Lubavitch issue, but something even broader- do you know what the RambaN said about a Rabbi or leader who makes people be in Awe/ Fear of him instead of fearing G-d and being in AWE of G-d? He said that that Rabbi will go into the deepest HELL and wont ever get out, if what he was doing is get people to worship him instead of G-d (im not pointing fingers, nor am I in the position to judge anyone, BUT this should at least be a cocern for people and expecially the leaders who are given all this Kavod).

[Lubab]

And about predicting the future, it does not always make someone a Prophet. For example I can predict that the price of oil is going to be over 200$ a barrel in a year from now, but that does not make me a Prophet (if it comes true). One would have to see the exact words of the L Rebbe, and if what he said was totally unpredictable and yett he was able to make the predictions precisly, and even with that it is not enough, because their are also people who know these types of things, yett are involved and get it from Tummah. OR even some religious people who can read hands, faces, etc. but it is a science and does not necessarily prove one thing or another. 
 + About the lubavitchers learning about Moshiach, thus qualifying them more than anyone else on the subject as you said- as I and others have seen- they first believed in the L Rebbe to be Moshiach and THEN looked at different sources in Torah to try to make the picture fitt, it is not different then the xtian missionaries who try to prove that yeshu was the messiah, by bringing Jewish texts and reinterpreting them to fitt their belief.
 + maybe not only to do with the Lubavitch issue, but something even broader- do you know what the RambaN said about a Rabbi or leader who makes people be in Awe/ Fear of him instead of fearing G-d and being in AWE of G-d? He said that that Rabbi will go into the deepest HELL and wont ever get out, if what he was doing is get people to worship him instead of G-d (im not pointing fingers, nor am I in the position to judge anyone, BUT this should at least be a cocern for people and expecially the leaders who are given all this Kavod).

Why do people just make up their own judaism instead of just following what the Ramabam already said.
The events the Rebbe predicted were collosal in nature and COMPLETELY contrary to what the entire wold  was saying.
If you have that three times by a great G-d fearing Torah scholar-you've got yourself a navi.

[Lubab]

Someone explain who RAMBAB was and if he was bad.

He was Maimonides, very good. A Great Torah Scholar, Doctor and Philosopher who codified Jewish law. 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

And about predicting the future, it does not always make someone a Prophet. For example I can predict that the price of oil is going to be over 200$ a barrel in a year from now, but that does not make me a Prophet (if it comes true). One would have to see the exact words of the L Rebbe, and if what he said was totally unpredictable and yett he was able to make the predictions precisly, and even with that it is not enough, because their are also people who know these types of things, yett are involved and get it from Tummah. OR even some religious people who can read hands, faces, etc. but it is a science and does not necessarily prove one thing or another. 
 + About the lubavitchers learning about Moshiach, thus qualifying them more than anyone else on the subject as you said- as I and others have seen- they first believed in the L Rebbe to be Moshiach and THEN looked at different sources in Torah to try to make the picture fitt, it is not different then the xtian missionaries who try to prove that yeshu was the messiah, by bringing Jewish texts and reinterpreting them to fitt their belief.
 + maybe not only to do with the Lubavitch issue, but something even broader- do you know what the RambaN said about a Rabbi or leader who makes people be in Awe/ Fear of him instead of fearing G-d and being in AWE of G-d? He said that that Rabbi will go into the deepest HELL and wont ever get out, if what he was doing is get people to worship him instead of G-d (im not pointing fingers, nor am I in the position to judge anyone, BUT this should at least be a cocern for people and expecially the leaders who are given all this Kavod).

Why do people just make up their own judaism instead of just following what the Ramabam already said.
The events the Rebbe predicted were collosal in nature and COMPLETELY contrary to what the entire wold  was saying.
If you have that three times by a great G-d fearing Torah scholar-you've got yourself a navi.

 Do you concider Rashbi to be a Prophet? Or the Arizal, or Rabbi Nachman Mi Breslev? (just a few exampes of many)

[q_q_]

You can't take one thing the RAMBAM wrote, and then ignore another.

Guide for the purplexed,by the RAMBAM
Chapter 36
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp123.htm
"
 This is a real fact, and the cause is evident; the pre-requisites [of prophecy] have been lost. In the Messianic period--may it soon commence--prophecy will therefore again be in our midst, as has been promised by God.
"


The lubavitcher rebbe knew this.. that's why in that thing you mentioned, and writings i have seen of his. He referred to the era we are in as a taste of the messianic era.

[Lubab]

You can't take one thing the RAMBAM wrote, and then ignore another.

Guide for the purplexed,by the RAMBAM
Chapter 36
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp123.htm
"
 This is a real fact, and the cause is evident; the pre-requisites [of prophecy] have been lost. In the Messianic period--may it soon commence--prophecy will therefore again be in our midst, as has been promised by G-d.
"


The lubavitcher rebbe knew this.. that's why in that thing you mentioned, and writings i have seen of his. He referred to the era we are in as a taste of the messianic era.

Yes we are in the era of Moshiach and prophesy has begin to return. The Rebbe explains about this at length in that sicha from 5751 parshas shoftim.

So therefore, to answer Tzvi, those Rabbis you mention were probably NOT prophets.

[Lubab]

You've got it backwards. He didn't refer to this era as the generation of Moshiach just so he could be established as a prophet. You know nothing of the Rebbe if you think he would manipulate things for his own personal aggrandizement. In both cases he was telling the truth. If you learn the sicha it's all backed up by the classical sources but you'd prefer to criticize and argue..fine with me! But I can't waste any more time on it. 

[q_q_]

Moreover.

I once asked a wonderful chabad rabbi, a difficult question..
After reading something, perhaps something of sichos, where the L Rebbe says that we are in a taste of the messianic era, and his something along the lines of, father in law was a prophet and previous genreations were judges.. something like that..

I asked him. Why is it that all these prophets just htappened to be the L Rebbe's family.

This rabbi could answer any question I asked him. He is brilliant. He used to be on askmoses about 5 years ago.

He said that the concept of rabbis us being in an era with a taste of prophecy, and so on, predates lubavitch, and even predates chassidut.  It existed around the time of the arizal too. And it refers to a period of 2000 years, from 4000-6000.


Now..
If you say  that the messianic era or taste of it began then.. And that any rabbi that predicts a major event is a presumed messiah, you still have quite a few.

There were some rabbis that predicted the holocaust, and hitler's birth, but were ignored. THe Chofetz Chaim made a famous prediction. Others are mentioned in rabbi antelman's  "to eliminate the opiate".

Do you presume that they were messiah's too?

The fact is that the idea of a taste of the messianic era from 4000-6000, is not in the RAMBAM
Prophecy ended.
And whether somebody is a prophet or not has nothing to do with the requirements to test to see if somebody is moshiach.

 

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

You can't take one thing the RAMBAM wrote, and then ignore another.

Guide for the purplexed,by the RAMBAM
Chapter 36
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp123.htm
"
 This is a real fact, and the cause is evident; the pre-requisites [of prophecy] have been lost. In the Messianic period--may it soon commence--prophecy will therefore again be in our midst, as has been promised by G-d.
"


The lubavitcher rebbe knew this.. that's why in that thing you mentioned, and writings i have seen of his. He referred to the era we are in as a taste of the messianic era.

So therefore, to answer Tzvi, those Rabbis you mention were probably NOT prophets.

 Exactly, so why would you assume that the L Rebbe was a prophet, when these Rabbis have made farr more predictions and Torah revelations then all the Chabad Rabbis put together (not even in an insulting way, but Rashbi alone was able to sustain the whole World , yett the L Rebbe is greater then him?) + if he was the higher Tzaddik then according to Kabbalah and Hassidut, doesn't the "lower Tzaddik" have opposition while the "Upper Tzaddik" no one objects to and he has no opposition. Doesn't this thread alone along with the Hundreds of Talmidi Hachamim (basically everyone except Lubavitchers) who oppose him prove that he was not and is not the "upper Tzaddik who'm no one opposes and everyone accepts.
  Also doesn't Chazal say that Moshiah will not come from a prominent family, and no one would think he is Moshiach, until one day G-d is going to reveal to him his mission. Unlike the L Rebbe who's family is famous and got the position because he is the physical heir to the Lubavitch Rebbe "throne" (Something which is also a problem to begin with because now we have all of these pressumed Kings, who's followers will only go agains't the Real Moshiah when he comes because they would be saddened that their Rebbe is not Moshiah.

[MassuhDGoodName]

I find it interesting, to say the least, how you guys obsess over various Torah sages living long after the Exile began, taking their interpretations and accummulated knowledge as more G-d's Word than even the Torah.

I have a feeling that were Ha'Shem appear to you all and be appalled that something you believe to be true is incorrect, that all of you would denounce G-d right to His Face for daring to disagree with Rambam or any of the other Rabbinic Sages

Me?

I read and study them all, never forgetting that they're mere mortal men and not infallible gods.

[q_q_]

I find it interesting, to say the least, how you guys obsess over various Torah sages living long after the Exile began, taking their interpretations and accummulated knowledge as more G-d's Word than even the Torah.

I have a feeling that were Ha'Shem appear to you all and be appalled that something you believe to be true is incorrect, that all of you would denounce G-d right to His Face for daring to disagree with Rambam or any of the other Rabbinic Sages

Me?

I read and study them all, never forgetting that they're mere mortal men and not infallible gods.

That's actually quite an immature misunderstanding and false conclusion from the whole discussion

[Dr. Dan]

He predicted with precision the end of two Arab Israeli wars and the fall of communist Russia when no one else dared say such things.

There were many more predictions but those three are the most publicized.

Communist Russia is back on the rise but under a different totalitarianism...

Secondly, there are other people who have predicted certain things with great precision...but that's a whole other story.

I do not doubt that the Rebbe was a wonderful heavenly human being...may he never be forgotten. May all of his teachings and doings always be remembered and even imitated in the proper manner.

Moshiach? Listen..sit back and wait..continue to do righteous deeds because that's what the Rebbe wants all Jews to do rather than worship him.

[q_q_]

I find it interesting, to say the least, how you guys obsess over various Torah sages living long after the Exile began, taking their interpretations and accummulated knowledge as more G-d's Word than even the Torah.

I have a feeling that were Ha'Shem appear to you all and be appalled that something you believe to be true is incorrect, that all of you would denounce G-d right to His Face for daring to disagree with Rambam or any of the other Rabbinic Sages

Me?

I read and study them all, never forgetting that they're mere mortal men and not infallible gods.

In short. The RAMBAM wrote a codification of the Talmud. Not much of his own opinion.
That is why it is so accepted.

A discussion over whether something agrees with the RAMBAM, if the argument comes out that it does.

Any logical people understand that that does -not- necessarily mean that the RAMBAM was correct.

We have what we have, and a mature minded person understands in its proper perspective, what conformance to one opinion or another, to one book or another, implies.  And the position that that book has. And so on.

If a group claims conformance to a classical rabbi, then it is a relevant discussion to see if that is really the case. It doesn't mean one makes the  conclusions that  you suggest.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Also another thing Lubab (besides the earlier points I made, that you haven't answered)
  Doesn't Chazal and Rambam say that prophecy only exists when the majority of the nation is in the land of Israel and the Beit Maikdash is standing. As we know when the L Rebbe gave what you claim to be Prophecies, weren't most Jews in galut, and wasn't/ isn't the Beit Mamikdash still not rebuilt? (unless of-course you will claim like some Lubavitchers that the building in 770 Brooklyn is Beit Moshiach and is like the Beit Hamikdash or whatever  ).
   Also Rambam and Chazal say that prophecy does exist, BUT it only goes to little kids and crazy people (literally - I think the word is Meshugaim or something like that), and it is said that if someone claims to you that he is a prophet and has prophecy, and if he is not a little kid, then you know what he is.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

BUT it only goes to little kids and crazy people

Talking about yourself again?

Don't think for a minute that we didn't see what you wrote on Guzzy's forum.

Why you haven't been banned is something I have no understanding of whatsoever.

[DownwithIslam]

Lubab, even though I am a small person compared to a tzaddik like yourself (I say that because of the respect and patience you have with people who are hateful towards one of the holiest people who ever lived) but at this point I think its wise not even to waste energy typing repsonses to the Lubavitch detractors. I read all the posts by the people who are anti lubavitch and while they are clearly wrong and refutable, its just not worth the effort anymore. Some people believe that a "Rabbi" who lives in luxury with fancy clothes and collects a check from the Israeli govt at the expense of jewish lives is noble. Others think that a man like Eliezer shach who spent most of his time smearing Lubavitch and their rebbe was holy. Lubab, me and you will not be able to convince them nor will they be able to change our minds. The only benfit I see to this thread is that the more posts we make, the more we are boosting jtf in the search engines. I think that the actions of Chabad on the ground is so far superior to any other jewish group that it is laughable. Its a shame that the Lubavitcher rebbe is just treated like a bowling ball by some.

[DownwithIslam]

BUT it only goes to little kids and crazy people

Talking about yourself again?

Don't think for a minute that we didn't see what you wrote on Guzzy's forum.

Why you haven't been banned is something I have no understanding of whatsoever.

Chaimfan, what did he write on the splinter? I am too lazy to open up my proxy and see for myself as you know I have been banned from the puppy mill long ago.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

BUT it only goes to little kids and crazy people

Talking about yourself again?

Don't think for a minute that we didn't see what you wrote on Guzzy's forum.

 I am bringing words from Chazal, something you have no buisness in, this discussion is a Torah discussion, something you do not believe in, so thus have no say in so stay out.

 What did I write on the Kahane forum? I can write wherever I want and I can write anything I want. I do not know what you are referring to, but I personally do not have to answer to you or to anyone.
 Now aside from this disturbence, people should get back to the discussion.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Here is that wonderfully righteous, pious Jew Tzvi defending Tina Greco:
http://forum.deleted.org/index.php/topic,3187.msg19170.html#msg19170

One thing I do not understand with all of these people who complained that their pics were posted or address was posted and felt their lives were/are in danger, why did they post the pictures online to begin with? And what is the difference if they are on the Kahane forum or the JTF forum or wherever, or if they are on myspace/yourface and wherever grinko or whoever else got the information. Same goes for Chaim's old address. Yes tino is a nazi, etc. but why the big commotion I do not understand if expecialy that address appeared on all the JTF T.V. shows, where anyone in Queens with a telivision could have viewed it?

 * sorry correction- it was the P.O. Box which is different, but still the people with the pictures, those who post their pics online should know that they could be seen by anyone including nazis, soo get out of all the nonsense on myspace/yourface.

Chaim, please ban this kapo animal. You saw this post too. I know it.

PS: Why is Tzvi's AIM name extasy17? Does he drop a lot of X? The way he writes and thinks, I would not doubt it.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I am bringing words from Chazal, something you have no buisness in, this discussion is a Torah discussion, something you do not believe in, so thus have no say in so stay out.

 What did I write on the Kahane forum? I can write wherever I want and I can write anything I want. I do not know what you are referring to, but I personally do not have to answer to you or to anyone.
 Now aside from this disturbence, people should get back to the discussion.

Now how would you know what I believe in, pipsqueak?

I, on the other hand, know exactly what you believe in. I think you are a white supremacist. You claim to be a Torah Jew, but yet defend the Nazis Tina Greco and Kelly Scott/Maureen/Taylor. You also talk like a white supremacist, speaking against "Mexicans" and whoever else isn't Aryan enough for your tastes.

Give me one reason to believe you aren't a WN, jerkface.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, why do you have such strong feelings against the moshichiasts? I am not a lubavitcher nor a mashichiast yet I love lubavitch dearly. They are the only ones that practice what they preach. Why all this SINA?