how an old earth does not contradict the torah, and even has some support

[Dr. Dan]

I love Chaim's answer on this subject...

I don't mind Jews or righteous gentiles who believe in the 6 literal day of the creation of the universe, as long as they are respectful to scientists and others who believe in the opposite...that it took billions of years for that to happen.  I welcome their point of view as i hope they would be open minded to hear the other.

WHat matters the most is that Hashem created the universe 6 days or a billion years.

[q_q_]

I love Chaim's answer on this subject...

I don't mind Jews or righteous gentiles who believe in the 6 literal day of the creation of the universe, as long as they are respectful to scientists and others who believe in the opposite...that it took billions of years for that to happen.  I welcome their point of view as i hope they would be open minded to hear the other.

WHat matters the most is that Hashem created the universe 6 days or a billion years.

Yes, but that's a given at the level of discussion I started with my original post.

Anybody studying this discussion believes that the Torah is true,  is the word of G-d, and so yes, that means HaShem exists.  If we didn't believe in the Torah and haShem, then this whole discussion would be pointless , especially at this level.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Just one simple question for you, q_q: why did you originally (page 2 of this thread) feel the need to respond to me in such a smart mule way? How hard would it have been for you to say "I disagree that there were six literal days because blah blah blah blah..."? Kahane_Was_Right_BT said "The six-day belief is a very Christian idea etc. etc. etc." and went on to explain why he believed that.

Only you gave a nasty first response. I am interested in seeing your answer as to why.

[q_q_]

Just one simple question for you, q_q: why did you originally (page 2 of this thread) feel the need to respond to me in such a smart mule way? How hard would it have been for you to say "I disagree that there were six literal days because blah blah blah blah..."? Kahane_Was_Right_BT said "The six-day belief is a very Christian idea etc. etc. etc." and went on to explain why he believed that.

Only you gave a nasty first response. I am interested in seeing your answer as to why.

As I said.  What you wrote was already answered in my first post, in many places, it was so blatantly answered. That's why I referred you to it. If you thought that was a smart answer then you should have followed the advice.

Since you couldn't read it, or find your answer.

Here is a quote from it
"You can go either way to make the reconciliation.. But the torha does not come out and say one way or the other. 24hr or eras."

24hr is not an inherently christian idea. It's a natural idea.

But as I  described in that first post, you can argue  24hr or eras.

And not just using jewish tradition. But the plain text itself. As I said already in my first post.
 

[Dr. Dan]

I love Chaim's answer on this subject...

I don't mind Jews or righteous gentiles who believe in the 6 literal day of the creation of the universe, as long as they are respectful to scientists and others who believe in the opposite...that it took billions of years for that to happen.  I welcome their point of view as i hope they would be open minded to hear the other.

WHat matters the most is that Hashem created the universe 6 days or a billion years.

Yes, but that's a given at the level of discussion I started with my original post.

Anybody studying this discussion believes that the Torah is true,  is the word of G-d, and so yes, that means HaShem exists.  If we didn't believe in the Torah and haShem, then this whole discussion would be pointless , especially at this level.

no of course..and it is an interesting topic..I like reading Lubab's and your discussion on this matter...

[DownwithIslam]

Just one simple question for you, q_q: why did you originally (page 2 of this thread) feel the need to respond to me in such a smart mule way? How hard would it have been for you to say "I disagree that there were six literal days because blah blah blah blah..."? Kahane_Was_Right_BT said "The six-day belief is a very Christian idea etc. etc. etc." and went on to explain why he believed that.

Only you gave a nasty first response. I am interested in seeing your answer as to why.

CF, their is no need trying to reason with certain people anymore. We know the truth and we know who the the arrogant gorillas are. I think we should just forget it for the good of the movt. Our opponent here couldn't give a damn about the movt so we have to be mature about it and forget it.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "We know the truth..."

I'm glad you're so knowledgeable.

All I know, is that the more I learn, understand, and know, the more I realize that I don't really know anything at all.

[q_q_]

Re:  "We know the truth..."

I'm glad you're so knowledgeable.

All I know, is that the more I learn, understand, and know, the more I realize that I don't really know anything at all.

what I have said is that the torah can support either 24hr or eras.

I know you know alot less than that.

But constantly making statements boasting about your ignorance, is an effort to appear humble, is actually arrogant.   A humble person doesn't boast continuously about how humble he is. It's a joke to boast about how humble you are.

[Lubab]

Re:  "We know the truth..."

I'm glad you're so knowledgeable.

All I know, is that the more I learn, understand, and know, the more I realize that I don't really know anything at all.

what I have said is that the torah can support either 24hr or eras.

I know you know alot less than that.

But constantly making statements boasting about your ignorance, is an effort to appear humble, is actually arrogant.   A humble person doesn't boast continuously about how humble he is. It's a joke to boast about how humble you are.

Actually it isn't. Did you ever learn the gemarah in Sota where one of Chazal say..."people say there is no humility but that's not true...there is me".

Humility is knowing what you are.

[DownwithIslam]

Re:  "We know the truth..."

I'm glad you're so knowledgeable.

All I know, is that the more I learn, understand, and know, the more I realize that I don't really know anything at all.

what I have said is that the torah can support either 24hr or eras.

I know you know alot less than that.

But constantly making statements boasting about your ignorance, is an effort to appear humble, is actually arrogant.   A humble person doesn't boast continuously about how humble he is. It's a joke to boast about how humble you are.

Actually it isn't. Did you ever learn the gemarah in Sota where one of Chazal say..."people say there is no humility but that's not true...there is me".

Humility is knowing what you are.

Lubab, another gem of wisdom from you. Your humility and patience with the haters is something I could never replicate. Kol hakavod to you.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Re:  "We know the truth..."

I'm glad you're so knowledgeable.

All I know, is that the more I learn, understand, and know, the more I realize that I don't really know anything at all.

what I have said is that the torah can support either 24hr or eras.

I know you know alot less than that.

But constantly making statements boasting about your ignorance, is an effort to appear humble, is actually arrogant.   A humble person doesn't boast continuously about how humble he is. It's a joke to boast about how humble you are.

Actually it isn't. Did you ever learn the gemarah in Sota where one of Chazal say..."people say there is no humility but that's not true...there is me".

Humility is knowing what you are.

 That case is different because that was someone who REALLY was humble, and they were talking about different traits that were gone from the world when one of the Hachamim passed away, when they mentioned humility, one of the Rabbis said no its not gone from the world because he is humble, he wasn't lying, nor boosting how humble he is, he was just saying that that trait is not gone from the world and he has it (While they were going through the list of good traits).
   On the other hand are you also familiar with the statements of Rebbe Nachman Mu Breslev who talks about Humility that is the ultimate pridefullness. For example a person who boosts his humility (so-called), etc.

[DownwithIslam]

Re:  "We know the truth..."

I'm glad you're so knowledgeable.

All I know, is that the more I learn, understand, and know, the more I realize that I don't really know anything at all.

what I have said is that the torah can support either 24hr or eras.

I know you know alot less than that.

But constantly making statements boasting about your ignorance, is an effort to appear humble, is actually arrogant.   A humble person doesn't boast continuously about how humble he is. It's a joke to boast about how humble you are.

Actually it isn't. Did you ever learn the gemarah in Sota where one of Chazal say..."people say there is no humility but that's not true...there is me".

Humility is knowing what you are.

 That case is different because that was someone who REALLY was humble, and they were talking about different traits that were gone from the world when one of the Hachamim passed away, when they mentioned humility, one of the Rabbis said no its not gone from the world because he is humble, he wasn't lying, nor boosting how humble he is, he was just saying that that trait is not gone from the world and he has it (While they were going through the list of good traits).
   On the other hand are you also familiar with the statements of Rebbe Nachman Mu Breslev who talks about Humility that is the ultimate pridefullness. For example a person who boosts his humility (so-called), etc.

MassuDgoodname was not trying to use humility as a source of pride. That was merely a concoction QQ's hateful mind. He himself is an ego maniac so he thinks everyone else is too.

[q_q_]

i'm waiting for some intellectual content, though not from you of course.

[DownwithIslam]

i'm waiting for some intellectual content, though not from you of course.

Well you hate Lubavitch and the Tanya but you like the koran and hadith. I guess only a verse from the koran is intellectual to you.

[q_q_]

i'm waiting for some intellectual content, though not from you of course.

Well you hate Lubavitch and the Tanya but you like the koran and hadith. I guess only a verse from the koran is intellectual to you.

I guess you can quote quran and hadith without difficulty, maybe. Maybe not.
(it's not hard, they are online)

But you certainly can't quote me to defend your claim.
You had a whole thread of opportunities I offered you to quote me,
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.15
remember that thread?
The one where I mentioned how your non-jewish other half, CF(ChaimFan) claimed that myself and tzvi consider ourselves the master race. He couldn't quote us either.  You defended him of course.

There's actually a quote button you can click, but that doesn't seem to help you either.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

i'm waiting for some intellectual content, though not from you of course.

Well you hate Lubavitch and the Tanya but you like the koran and hadith. I guess only a verse from the koran is intellectual to you.

 I dont remember him ever saying anything agains't the Tanya (but I dont know his beliefs on that). I personally do not have an opinion either way (but for the record my Rav (and no it is not Rav Mizrachi) called it a deep Kabbalistic book. Nor has he (qq) said he likes the koran and hadith, and you know you are making this up (at least I hope you dont believe in what you write most of the time). No one spoke agains't the Tanya, in the past if I remember correctly Judea has said that the Tanya is wrong in a certain issue to do with Tzimtzut and that the opinion of the Vilna Gaon is correct, and also (if what Judea says is true, and I dont have reason to believe he is lying) Chaim also said something in the past agains't the Tanya (which is basially all of Chabad Lubavitch for generations) (so you should carry your jihad to him), while here their were only questions for Lubab. And if he was really offended he should state soo and explain what offends him soo much. And anyway I also think that if he has the correct answers he should write them, because by not answering our questions (after encouraging questions and comments) he is showing that he lost the argument, case closed.

[DownwithIslam]

i'm waiting for some intellectual content, though not from you of course.

Well you hate Lubavitch and the Tanya but you like the koran and hadith. I guess only a verse from the koran is intellectual to you.

 I dont remember him ever saying anything agains't the Tanya (but I dont know his beliefs on that). I personally do not have an opinion either way (but for the record my Rav (and no it is not Rav Mizrachi) called it a deep Kabbalistic book. Nor has he (qq) said he likes the koran and hadith, and you know you are making this up (at least I hope you dont believe in what you write most of the time). No one spoke agains't the Tanya, in the past if I remember correctly Judea has said that the Tanya is wrong in a certain issue to do with Tzimtzut and that the opinion of the Vilna Gaon is correct, and also (if what Judea says is true, and I dont have reason to believe he is lying) Chaim also said something in the past agains't the Tanya (which is basially all of Chabad Lubavitch for generations) (so you should carry your jihad to him), while here their were only questions for Lubab. And if he was really offended he should state soo and explain what offends him soo much. And anyway I also think that if he has the correct answers he should write them, because by not answering our questions (after encouraging questions and comments) he is showing that he lost the argument, case closed.

Tzvi, you are over exaggerating Chaims criticism of Lubavitch. He has criticized them extremely lightly as compared to his praises of them.
And you are making it seem that the only thing that Lubavitch goes by is the Tanya. That is false, in fact the last Lubavitch rebbe wrote many seforim which are held in high esteem. In regard to Lubab, I don't think anything he could say would convince you just like you wont convince us. Notice that I no longer address QQ directly as I consider him to be a anti semitic shaygitz.

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

i'm waiting for some intellectual content, though not from you of course.

Well you hate Lubavitch and the Tanya but you like the koran and hadith. I guess only a verse from the koran is intellectual to you.

 I dont remember him ever saying anything agains't the Tanya (but I dont know his beliefs on that). I personally do not have an opinion either way (but for the record my Rav (and no it is not Rav Mizrachi) called it a deep Kabbalistic book. Nor has he (qq) said he likes the koran and hadith, and you know you are making this up (at least I hope you dont believe in what you write most of the time). No one spoke agains't the Tanya, in the past if I remember correctly Judea has said that the Tanya is wrong in a certain issue to do with Tzimtzut and that the opinion of the Vilna Gaon is correct, and also (if what Judea says is true, and I dont have reason to believe he is lying) Chaim also said something in the past agains't the Tanya (which is basially all of Chabad Lubavitch for generations) (so you should carry your jihad to him), while here their were only questions for Lubab. And if he was really offended he should state soo and explain what offends him soo much. And anyway I also think that if he has the correct answers he should write them, because by not answering our questions (after encouraging questions and comments) he is showing that he lost the argument, case closed.

Tzvi, you are over exaggerating Chaims criticism of Lubavitch. He has criticized them extremely lightly as compared to his praises of them.
And you are making it seem that the only thing that Lubavitch goes by is the Tanya. That is false, in fact the last Lubavitch rebbe wrote many seforim which are held in high esteem. In regard to Lubab, I don't think anything he could say would convince you just like you wont convince us. Notice that I no longer address QQ directly as I consider him to be a anti semitic shaygitz.

 I actualy think the exact opposite. I dont neccessarily have questions on the Tanya and its teachings (Which I believe forms the basis of the whole movement), but I do (as about every other non-Chabad Orthodox group) on what has developed recently in the movement expecially in regards to messianism and the messianists.
  Once again- Them or anyone doing something right does not give freedom to do something wrong. I cant say I keep Shabb-t so I can eat non-Kosher food. Nor can an Israeli who served in the army say that he doesn't have to keep Shabb-t and the laws just because he served in the army. One has nothing to do with the other.

 "In regard to Lubab, I don't think anything he could say would convince you just like you wont convince us"

 Not true, I have changed opinions before, and even if I wont change in this issue, shouldn't he provide the answers if he welcomed questions? If he wants to say he cant answer them, then fine, but no one should welcome questions on a subject and then just ignor them. And on top of that, someone who is an outsider should not comment on how another person feels or doesn't feel, if he is hurt, let him address whoever has hurt him, and explain what exactly is bothering him. Other then that, I am waiting either to get a response to the previous points and questions or I take this as a defeat in the argument by Lubab.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, he didn't seem happy here.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.msg249284#msg249284

[Tzvi Ben Roshel1]

Tzvi, he didn't seem happy here.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.msg249284#msg249284

 And he welcomed comments and questions in the very same thread, so I dont see why you have to jump in and disrupt the discussion. For the last time (Bli Neder) If he wants to answer them, fine, if not then okay.

[DownwithIslam]

Tzvi, he didn't seem happy here.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.msg249284#msg249284

 And he welcomed comments and questions in the very same thread, so I dont see why you have to jump in and disrupt the discussion. For the last time (Bli Neder) If he wants to answer them, fine, if not then okay.

Tzvi, this is what  suggest to you. Start a new thread with clearly numbered questions you have about Chabad and give Lubab a clear lace for him to respond to yuo and for others to be able to view it from the sidelines. If he answers your questions satisfactorily, then we will all be able to see for ourselves. I have looked through lubabs posts and it seems he has been answering lots of question. Start a new thread with all the questions that you still have that haven't been answere.

[q_q_]

I don't have a list of questions to ask him.

Why do you think I am somehow obligated to think of a list of questions to ask him?

If you think that I have attacked lubavitch already, and you do, then quote me. And "we can discuss it", or rather, it can be discussed. I asked you to do so enough times in this thread. And you admitted that you would not.
http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php?topic=23352.msg249284#msg249284
I've even told you enough times about the number of times I have told you to quote me.

You are for some reason convinced I am a muslim. So clearly there is no way you are of the intellectual calibre or mental stability to even post sensibly in the general section.  Let alone comment on a subject. You certainly cannot debate.
You lack even the ability to repeat what somebody has said, or quote them out of context. Or you know that if you do then you will get caught. So you just make the same claims and get caught anyway.
You try use the same technique as Goerbels, that if you repeat a lie often enough then people will believe it. But you are not as clever or successful.

I don't know if you're one of the people here that likes to mock black people - and they may be right sometimes - but I can tell you that almost every black person I have ever spoken to looks like socrates compared to you