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Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Who says Jewish weakness is not a chillul Hashem? If Jewish weakness is defined by letting the goyim step on you and not defending yourself, then it certainly is. And I'm pretty sure that was one of the ways Rabbi Kahane defined "Jewish weakness." But his idea was not something out of the blue. It is a basic in Judaism. If Israel is defeated in war, the nations can then say "where is your G-d" etc. Same if we are prevented from doing a slew of commandments or we live in constant fear, etc.
Also, who says Chanukah had no halachic basis? It got rid of a lot of avoda zara and its practitioners in the Land of Israel, didn't it?
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 08:45:35 AM ---Who says Jewish weakness is not a chillul Hashem?
--- End quote ---
any rabbi other than rabbi kahane seems to define it as a jew sinning in public.
so if a gentile desecrates a torah scroll and you a jew stand by, it's a negative thing but not a chillul hashem.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 08:45:35 AM ---If Jewish weakness is defined by letting the goyim step on you and not defending yourself, then it certainly is.
--- End quote ---
not chillul hashem.
maybe it is in a biblical definition of the term, but not a halachic, from what I understand from any rabbi I have spoken to.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 08:45:35 AM ---<snip>
But his idea was not something out of the blue. It is a basic in Judaism. If Israel is defeated in war, the nations can then say "where is your G-d" etc. Same if we are prevented from doing a slew of commandments or we live in constant fear, etc.
--- End quote ---
I said it myself already, it's in the bible , as chillul hashem.
But that is not the halachic definition of chillul hashem.
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 08:45:35 AM ---Also, who says Chanukah had no halachic basis? It got rid of a lot of avoda zara and its practitioners in the Land of Israel, didn't it?
--- End quote ---
From what I have read, and this halacha is well known.
The halacha is very passive. If somebody says "do idol worship or die", you die rather than idol worship. It doesn't say kill the thug.
The halacha is that if an evil regime tries to force you to sin, or die. Then you die. This is well known. Because you cannot do a chillul hashem. (somebody told me that that gemara was developed after the chanukah period, so that way perhaps chanukah is ok). It doesn't say kill the guy that forces you. It may be OK to do it, may be good to do it. Zealotry. But it's not halachic
Suppose there are idol worshipping jews in the land of israel. Is it halacha to kill them? To force them out? I know of no such halacha. Similarly if genttiles are doing it there. A chillul hashem is if a jew sins publically. Not if a gentile does.
If a jew just stands by, then I wonder. it's perhaps not honouring G-d enough or not loving his fellow jew enough, but it's not a chillul hashem to stand by. But if he stands by in his neighbours blood, then I suppose it would be a chillul hashem. But the gemara mentions nothing of it, just dying. It may well be, that once the enemy is killing jews, we have to kill them. But that is halacha regarding self defence. Nothing to do with chillul hashem.
Shlomo:
It means a desecration of G-d's Name or something someone does that takes people away from Torah or hurts the Jewish people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem
--- Quote ---Chillul Hashem (Hebrew: חילול השם, "Desecration [of] the [G-d's] Name") is a term used in Judaism particularly for any act or behavior that casts shame or brings disrepute to belief in God, any aspect of the Torah's teachings, or Jewish law.
The source for this commandment is to be found in the Book of Leviticus: "And you shall not profane My holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the Lord who hallows you" - the Biblical Lev. 22:32 term meaning to bring dishonour or shame to God's name by an action or lack thereof. Any behavior or action that disgraces, harms or shames God and his Torah is regarded as a chillul hashem ("desecration of God's name") by Orthodox Jews; in contrast, any action by a Jew that brings honor, respect, and glory to God is considered to be a Kiddush Hashem.
--- End quote ---
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/419,83/What-constitutes-a-Chillul-Hashem-desecration-of-G-ds-Name.html
--- Quote ---“Chillul Hashem” (pronounced KHIH-lool hah-SHEM) means “Desecration of G-d’s Name.” Colloquially, it refers to personal acts/behaviors that give G-d, Judaism, Torah/Mitzvot or Jews a bad name and a bad reputation.
But in its legal sense, it refers to when a Jew is faced with the choice of a) committing one of the three cardinal sins (accepting another god or religion, murder or certain illicit sexual relations), or b) execution. If s/he chooses “a” instead of “b” that is a Chillul Hashsem.
--- End quote ---
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 10:04:47 AM ---From what I have read, and this halacha is well known.
The halacha is very passive. If somebody says "do idol worship or die", you die rather than idol worship. It doesn't say kill the thug.
The halacha is that if an evil regime tries to force you to sin, or die. Then you die. This is well known.
--- End quote ---
This is on an individual basis. The tribes were commanded to wipe out the idol worship from the land of Israel. That was a national commandment.
Your scenario also assumes that you have no ability to actually prevent the guy from killing you. (ie, you are unarmed, defenseless, etc). Because otherwise he would be an active pursuer wouldn't he? And in that case you must kill him. I think this is a scenario where you really cannot do anything else except do what he says or get murdered. But you're certainly not obligated to put yourself into that position. It's only if you happen to end up there. If one has the means to keep himself out of that position, you could make the argument that he's obligated to stay out of it!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 10:04:47 AM ---Suppose there are idol worshipping jews in the land of israel. Is it halacha to kill them? To force them out? I know of no such halacha. Similarly if genttiles are doing it there. A chillul hashem is if a jew sins publically. Not if a gentile does.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what this piece has to do with what we are discussing.
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