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Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
In yeshiva they encourage the students to do kiddush Hashem, in workplace and in other aspects of life. They don't mean "refuse to worship idols when your boss demands it and let him kill you instead"
The concept of Kiddush Hashem and its importance is all over websites and Orthodox divrei Torah available online. The opposite is chillul Hashem. If you want to call all these discussions "non halachic," I don't think that changes its importance in any way. It's an issue of semantics, but how is it relevant?
Shabbat Shalom.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 10:25:13 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 10:04:47 AM ---From what I have read, and this halacha is well known.
The halacha is very passive. If somebody says "do idol worship or die", you die rather than idol worship. It doesn't say kill the thug.
The halacha is that if an evil regime tries to force you to sin, or die. Then you die. This is well known.
--- End quote ---
This is on an individual basis. The tribes were commanded to wipe out the idol worship from the land of Israel. That was a national commandment.
--- End quote ---
The case of tribes wiping out idol worship, was no doubt a specific commandment from G-d for them to fight them then. We may have some of the reasons given.. They will be a thorn in your side.. But the reason they were thrown out was G-d said so. I don't think we derive halacha from it, and anyhow it has NOTHING to do with chillul hashem.
btw, the evil regime is most blatantly a public basis not an individual basis. the evil regime case is the chillul hashem case. In an individual case there is no chillul hashem because it's private.
The RAMBAN does say it's a mitzva to conquer the land.. RAMBAM doesn't. So RAMBAN would probably be in favour of throwing out an enemy from the land. instigating it.
It may be that when our enemy starts a war, with us, even asking for some straw, we fight them.
I have heard that there is some chillul hashem argument there within that halacha, in a biblical sense of the term chillul hashem. But I don't think that's the source of the halacha. No rabbis other than rabbi kahane are saying that for example a mosque on the temple mount is a chillul hashem. It's gentiles sinning .. A chillul hashem is jews sinning (in public).
But again, this is nothing to d owit
If the askmoses thing is correct.. which i'm not sure about. since it calls private sins chillul hashem. It agrees that Legally, chillul hashem is different from the linguistic meaning given in tenach.
Rabbi kahane chose the zealous path, it's good - if G-d wants it i suppose - but it's not about following halacha or not following halacha. It's about going beyond halacha. I'm sure rabbi kahane would say it absolutely is the halacha. But i'm not convinced.. He mostly talked to secular audiences. I haven't really heard much of his religious arguments, not proofs anyway.
But I can tell you that chillul hashem , legally, most would take not as rabbi kahane did. But sins done by jews. (in public I woujld say) So, more like askmoses than like rabbi kahane.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on October 03, 2008, 10:29:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 10:04:47 AM ---Suppose there are idol worshipping jews in the land of israel. Is it halacha to kill them? To force them out? I know of no such halacha. Similarly if genttiles are doing it there. A chillul hashem is if a jew sins publically. Not if a gentile does.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure what this piece has to do with what we are discussing.
--- End quote ---
We are discussing Chillul Hashem.
Rav Kahane wanted to wipe out chillul hashem.. Even if it were the case that we should wipe it out by any means possible.. There is a difference between how rav kahane took chillul hahem - which is the biblical definition..
And the halachic definition (Which I also heard from rav kahane). Public sin done by a jew.
in that instance, of idol worship, it would be chillul hashem halachically.. But wiping it out how? By killing gentiles?
Maybe kill them in a war of self defence.
This is a different issue to the chillul hashem issue as rabbi kahane defined it, and wiping out chillul hashem.
Rabbi Kahane applied it to the mosque on the temple mount.
to jewish weakness.
but still. wiping it out is zealousness.
As individuals we shouldn't sin.. And we should in some way try to rebuke or stop our jewish neighbour from sinning. But chanukah, like killing hellenistic jews. That's zealousness(which was good for chanukah).. But it's not halacha.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: Shlomo on October 03, 2008, 10:20:17 AM ---It means a desecration of G-d's Name or something someone does that takes people away from Torah or hurts the Jewish people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillul_Hashem
--- Quote ---Chillul Hashem (Hebrew: חילול השם, "Desecration [of] the [G-d's] Name") is a term used in Judaism particularly for any act or behavior that casts shame or brings disrepute to belief in G-d, any aspect of the Torah's teachings, or Jewish law.
The source for this commandment is to be found in the Book of Leviticus: "And you shall not profane My holy name; but I will be hallowed among the children of Israel: I am the Lord who hallows you" - the Biblical Lev. 22:32 term meaning to bring dishonour or shame to G-d's name by an action or lack thereof. Any behavior or action that disgraces, harms or shames G-d and his Torah is regarded as a chillul hashem ("desecration of G-d's name") by Orthodox Jews; in contrast, any action by a Jew that brings honor, respect, and glory to G-d is considered to be a Kiddush Hashem.
--- End quote ---
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/419,83/What-constitutes-a-Chillul-Hashem-desecration-of-G-ds-Name.html
--- Quote ---“Chillul Hashem” (pronounced KHIH-lool hah-SHEM) means “Desecration of G-d’s Name.” Colloquially, it refers to personal acts/behaviors that give G-d, Judaism, Torah/Mitzvot or Jews a bad name and a bad reputation.
But in its legal sense, it refers to when a Jew is faced with the choice of a) committing one of the three cardinal sins (accepting another G-d or religion, murder or certain illicit sexual relations), or b) execution. If s/he chooses “a” instead of “b” that is a Chillul Hashsem.
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
but rav kahane wanted to wipe chillul hashem out.. and he took the biblical definition.
even according to that askmoses site, that thought is not a halachic thing. It's being zealous..
which is or can be good. But it's not a halachic imperative.
MarZutra:
--- Quote from: q_q_ on October 03, 2008, 08:40:35 AM ---
--- Quote from: MarZutra on October 03, 2008, 08:02:36 AM ---
--- End quote ---
rabbi kahane's religious views are not very well known though.
he simply didn't air them much, he spoke largely to secular jews.
I don't think any rabbi i've spoken to agrees with his view that jewish weakness e.g. the mosque on the temple mount, is a Chillul Hashem.. This is crucial. Rabbi Kahane wanted to wipe chillul hashem out.. But he defined chillul hashem very generally, using the biblical definition in ezekiel 36(see speech to noachides).
The funny thing is I heard him speak to kids, and he defined chillul hashem as every other rabbi does. A public sin.
I guess jewish weakness is - though not chillul hashem - it is a negative thing, all would agree it's a negative thing. And one can be a Zealot and try to remove that negative thing. Even though one is not obligated to.
A great chabad rabbi I spoke to did say that not everything we do has to have a halachic basis. One can do a zealous act. And if G-d rewards us for it we know it's right. Like Chanukah.
--- End quote ---
Of course you are correct here. As one who has actually read Rabbi Kahane's works can attest to his, Torah backed, views on Chillul HaShem.
I've met many Orthodox Rabbis that see Rabbi Kahane's views as correct. Sadly, VERY few would openly back him in the most important time when it was needed, similarly how they tend to "sit idly by" today. The Heredim are of a different cloth, aforementioned.
q_q I'd say that there are very few on here that have actually read the Rabbi's words, listened to him debate or even watched his lecture on video. A very logical and passionate man to which man of the ignorami like Denis Prager and David Horowitz (spelling) benightedly compared him to Hitler, Arafat or Genghis Khan.
So for those whom have not read anything of Rabbi Kahane:
http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/ebooks/ebooks.html
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