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Russia's Chief Rabbi: Living in Israel weakens faith
q_q_:
--- Quote from: MarZutra on October 03, 2008, 11:03:18 AM ---<snip>
I've met many Orthodox Rabbis that see Rabbi Kahane's views as correct. Sadly, VERY few would openly back him in the most important time when it was needed, similarly how they tend to "sit idly by" today. The Heredim are of a different cloth, aforementioned.
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--- End quote ---
It's easy to say "Kahane was right"
and many rabbis agree with Rabbi Kahane
So much of what rabbi kahane said is obvious to any sane person.
But rabbi kahane never focussed on convincing people of his halachic positions.. Convincing those that would have opposed him. The charedim.
So when one says they agree with this or that of what rabbi kahane said.. Then it is not what i'm talking about.
He said many great things.. so clearly, and should not have been opposed. There was a quote in the JC, where he said - as a statement against democracy in israel. "Torah is truth. How can one vote on truth?" This was in an article written by one of his detractors. (The JC, as rabbi kahane wrote, slandered him and refused to print his response)
However, when it gets to some of the meat of his torah positions. I have not met one rabbi that would say that the mosque on the temple mount is a chillul hashem that has to be removed. A negative thing, yes. But not a chillul hashem.
The biblical definition of the term or to put it another way, the linguistic definition.. is not halachic. And that's according to that askmoses site too, that shlomo posted.
FULL METAL JACKET:
The rabbi has a point. All one needs to do is bring up the Mizrahi jews. When they first came to Israel they were treated horrendously. Some that were doctors and lawyers in their native countries were forced to become janitors instead. So many untold discrimination. Not too long ago a Yemenite family had to move to nyc because there was so much discrimination.
q_q_:
--- Quote from: FULL METAL JACKET on October 03, 2008, 12:08:46 PM ---The rabbi has a point. All one needs to do is bring up the Mizrahi jews. When they first came to Israel they were treated horrendously. Some that were doctors and lawyers in their native countries were forced to become janitors instead. So many untold discrimination. Not too long ago a Yemenite family had to move to nyc because their was so much discrimination.
--- End quote ---
And like you, many rabbis or sane jews, would say, kahane was right.
but they're not aware of the meat of his torah arguments..
maybe some religious jews at YU when he spoke there got to argue it out with him but he never focussed on presenting it.
I think it would only have been unravelled in a debate format..
He debated seculars alot, but not orthodox rabbis. True, he said he'd debate any of them.. and they didn't reply. But at the end of the day he didn't debate them. (and also, he was smart enough that if he wanted to debate them he could have provoked one!)
There is one I might get, advetrised on the dog trainer's website(i'll say no more of that wicked person, but I'll PM anybody interested).. a debate with a rabbi wolf . I don't have it. Just I saw it listed on the site and he's selling it.
And I read online of a (an orthodox) rabbi debating him and losing, the article was written by that rabbi and he sounded like a sore loser as a comment pointed out. The only recorded one would be that rabbi wolf. compare that to all his other talks.. all secular really, with religious bits thrown in to secular audiences. There is a talk to kids, buit again, not to a rabbi, not a debate. There's no question that it's missing.
rabbi kahane's whole ideology was based in the torah, rooted in it.. And he believed that.. and he didn't really make the case. Maybe he did in Ohr HaRayon, I hope to get it some time. But it's a longshot.
MarZutra:
Both my Rabbis believe that the Mosque is an insult to HaShem and should be torn down and shipped to Arabia. In fact my Rabbi, who feels the Arabs should be expelled and all mosques torn down...
Now I've never heard him, nor asked him specifically if he believes it to be Chillul HaShem. I am guessing he would say it is...
q_q_:
--- Quote from: MarZutra on October 03, 2008, 01:05:43 PM ---Both my Rabbis believe that the Mosque is an insult to HaShem and should be torn down and shipped to Arabia. In fact my Rabbi, who feels the Arabs should be expelled and all mosques torn down...
Now I've never heard him, nor asked him specifically if he believes it to be Chillul HaShem. I am guessing he would say it is...
--- End quote ---
Please ask him and report back..
Argue the reverse and see how his argument holds up.
If he says "No" it's not a chillul hashem, then i'm sure you'll argue with that.. Do report back.
If he says "Yes, it is a chillul hashem", then put this to him..
Chillul hashem is a sin, it's something jews do, not gentiles.
A sin so serious that it is better to die than to commit it.
(those are just quick points to any rabbi you argue it out with).
note- I must say , outside of the evil regime case, i'm not sure where chillul hashem fits into halacha.. like, what if we have the upper hand or don't have the knife on our throats, and are told to sin,. Then I would guess it's a big chillul hashem to sin, and we can fight them rather than die.. Do they have to be saying "sin", break halacha.. for it to be a chillul hashem. The arabs of course don't know it to be - though christians would see it as against the torah, so if it's about public perception then it would be seen as a sin by the public, so a chillul hashem.
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