General Category > General Discussion
please need some help with the Torah/Bible
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
But whatever, I dont believe that Ishmael was favored, it was just a question of either keeping or kicking out the son. And he wanted to have him stay (because after all he was his son), but Sarah and G-d saw other-wise, and they sent out Ishmael. Also mention that during Avraham's lifetime he gave Ishmael and the other sons gifts, that did not include the land of Israel (which only belong's to Yitzhak and after him his son Israel).
http://torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Avraham_Tabibov/index.html - This is in Russian, the last one on the list, "Alexander the Great" Speaks of the Arabs and 2 other nations coming and
debating in front of Alexander the Great of who owns the land of Israel (obviously the Jews won, becuase they had logic on their side)- Listin to the Shiur, this is a very good Rav (My Rav actually, and I heard this before, in shul and this is brought down in the Talmud).
Also many say that Yitzhak did favor Esav, and it is a good point, BUT that is why the Torah says he was blind, he didn't see the deception made by Esav and the way he tricked him. The sages say though that Esav did have 1 great quality which was Respecting mother and father (and he did serve his parents well). Also another comparison was that Esav was a man of the fields and Yakov- one who dwelt in tents.
I beleive a Midrash (or maybe something I though of, or heard) says that Yitzhak Knew that Yakov was the one who dressed as Esav and was getting the blessing (he even says the voice is the voice of Yakov), but NOW he was ready to give him the blessing becuase he saw that Yakov was now able to survive in this world. Originally he wanted their to be a sort of pact between Esav and Yakov (a man of survival and a spiritual man respectivly), and that seeing Yakov as ONLY being a spiritual man, meant that maybe he could not survive in this "cruel" world (full of wars, etc.) BUT after using the "hands of Esav" Yitzhak could now see that Yakov acquired the necessary quality of survival that Esav has had and has both the "hands of Esav" and the "Voice of Yakov", both neccesary for the survival of the Jewish nation.
This is also connected to David and his general Yoav, Becuase Yoav fought the battles for Israel, David was able to learn Torah, and becuase David learned Torah, Yoav won the battles for Israel.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
"As I said in my initial post, according to Jewish tradition Ishmael is the patriarch of the Arabs. Essau is the patriarch of the Edomites, the Romans. There is no way that Essau is related to the Arabs as Ishmael is well established as the head of the Arab nations."
Both of you are right in a certain sense. Although generally the Arabs are Ishmael, and Edom is Rome, their is written, that 10 nations (including some of Amalik, Moav, Edom) ran to the desert and intermarried with the Ishmaleites (not all of them, but a portion of 10 nations did, when Sanherib came and conqured the region, and displaced nations and interminglied them). But yes, mainly the Arabs are Ishmael, and their spiritual and cultural influence is Ishmael, while Europe is generally Esav.
muman613:
Shalom,
Found this:
--- Quote ---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau
Genesis 25:28 explains the conflict between the parents and their children: "Now Isaac loved Esau, because he had a taste for game, but Rebekah loved Jacob." (emphasis added).
.
.
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Esau, naturally, is furious and vows to kill Jacob (Gen. 27:41). Once again Rebekah intervenes to save her youngest son Jacob from being murdered by her eldest son, Esau.
Therefore, at Rebekah's urging, Jacob flees to a distant land to work for a relative, Laban (Gen. 28:5). To engineer Jacob's escape unharmed, Rebekah invents a story about not wanting Jacob to marry a local Heth-ite woman (Gen. 27:46).
Esau married Canaanite women, but, upon hearing that this greatly displeased his parents, Esau married his cousin Mahalath, the daughter of Ishmael (Gen. 28:6-9). Esau thus demonstrates loyalty to his parents and their wishes. However, the Bible portrays Rebekah's expression of displeasure with the women of the region as actually being only a ruse to facilitate Jacob's escape from Esau's murderous threats.
--- End quote ---
So apparantly Tzvi was correct that there is a mix of Esaus descendants and the descendants of Ishmael.
muman613
PS: Esau wanted to murder Yaakov because he felt Yaakov had stolen his birthright {but in truth he sold it for a bowl of beans}. In the end Yaakov wrestles with the angel of Esau and prevails and the angel gives Yaakov his well-known name of Israel.
Tzvi Ben Roshel1:
"PS: I think you meant that Essau was a Hunter, not a murderer. What is your source for calling Essau a murderer? In fact Essau was a very religious and observant man, not like you portray him."
Our sages say that Esav was a murderer. ( Actually both him and Ishmael- by Ishmeal see the comments of "Mesahek"- or playing- 3 interpretations- raping women, killing, and serving idolatry)
Esav- when he came from the field, the day Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom died, our sages say he killed a person. At first he was "good" although already at the womb their was a battle between Esav and Yakov. Many say when Avraham died- Esav said, something to the point of, how could G-d kill a man as rightious as Avraham (his grandfather), so thus their is no justice and Judge on earth (G-d forbid), so then he became bad (at around 13 I believe, and on that day he murdered a person).
Yonathan- I also remembered- this http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Daniel_Cohen/index.html
"Dating and Marriage part 1). - (english) This Rav talks about the different personality traits (including Ishmael, Esav, etc.) Comparisons, etc. I believe this would be very helpful for your paper.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Tzvi Ben Roshel on October 16, 2008, 08:12:58 PM ---"PS: I think you meant that Essau was a Hunter, not a murderer. What is your source for calling Essau a murderer? In fact Essau was a very religious and observant man, not like you portray him."
Our sages say that Esav was a murderer. ( Actually both him and Ishmael- by Ishmeal see the comments of "Mesahek"- or playing- 3 interpretations- raping women, killing, and serving idolatry)
Esav- when he came from the field, the day Avraham Avinu Alav Hashalom died, our sages say he killed a person. At first he was "good" although already at the womb their was a battle between Esav and Yakov. Many say when Avraham died- Esav said, something to the point of, how could G-d kill a man as rightious as Avraham (his grandfather), so thus their is no justice and Judge on earth (G-d forbid), so then he became bad (at around 13 I believe, and on that day he murdered a person).
Yonathan- I also remembered- this http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/Daniel_Cohen/index.html
"Dating and Marriage part 1). - (english) This Rav talks about the different personality traits (including Ishmael, Esav, etc.) Comparisons, etc. I believe this would be very helpful for your paper.
--- End quote ---
Interesting Tzvi,
I just listened to a shuir from TorahAnyTime and I remember the Rabbi {I cant recall his name now} said that Esau was a very religious and pious man. This is how he was able to fool his father. But it is possible that your explanation is true also. I have not heard this before. I will look into it...
Thank you,
muman613
PS: I found this on Aish.com which explains what you are talking about...
--- Quote ---http://www.aish.com/torahportion/moray/Esau.asp
Parshat Toldot tells the tale of the two children born to Isaac and Rebecca, Esau and Jacob.
The Jewish tradition teaches much about the greatness of Jacob, who is known also by his other name Israel. Jacob is the symbol of fidelity to God, the symbol of goodness. Our entire people have assumed his identity.
But his brother Esau is seen as a demonic character. The very name Esau evokes images of mayhem and bloodshed. Though his midrashic reputation is unchallenged, when one reads the biblical text, one wonders if he really deserves it.
We know that Esau was a hunter, an occupation that, despite any ominous overtones, is not intrinsically evil. Perhaps it is the comparison with Jacob that has put Esau in a poor light, though does that alone justify the deep enmity for Esau transmitted across millennia?
We might claim that only due to his descendants -- most notably Amalek -- has Esau earned his inauspicious reputation. Alternatively, we may assume that the actions and attitudes of his descendants helped form the midrashic reading of the texts.
THE DESPAIR OF ABRAHAM
The Midrash actually records the antecedents of such an approach within Abraham himself, as he contemplates his own death:
Then I said in my heart: as it happens to the fool, so will it happen even to me. (Ecclesiastes 2:15). "I have been called 'king' and the wicked Nimrod is called 'king'. Both alike died; in that case, why was I then more wise? Why did I [Abraham] jeopardize my life for the sanctification of the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, and warn people, saying, 'There is no G-d like Him among those above or below'? Then I said further, For there is no remembrance of the wise man together with the fool for ever, seeing that in the days to come all will long ago have been forgotten. Why [should he have said so]? When adversity befalls Israel they cry, Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants (Exodus 32:13); but do the heathen nations [in their distress] cry, 'Remember the deeds of Nimrod'? That is what is written, So how shall the wise man die even as the fool!" (Midrash Rabbah - Kohelet 2:16)
Esau identifies with this articulation of despair more than any other "teaching" of Abraham. In this soliloquy, Abraham concerned himself with the world-view of the simple man, and not only the philosopher, and therefore considered the world from a superficial perspective. Abraham was worried that due to the human condition, with death in the world, he and his teachings would soon be forgotten, his deeds dissipated like so many other passing trends. Realistically, without Abraham, the world stood a serious chance of becoming a dark and ugly place again, sliding back into the dark age from which it had emerged. Indeed, on the day that Abraham dies, all hell breaks loose:
Rabbi Johanan said: "That wicked [Esau] committed five sins on that day. He dishonored a betrothed maiden, he committed a murder, he denied G-d, he denied the resurrection of the dead, and he spurned the birthright." (Baba Batra 16b)
The concept of resurrection, which his father Isaac had all but experienced, could have provided Esau with the hope he needed to continue in his fathers' path. Yet this concept, this comfort, eluded his tortured mind. Ironically, Esau with his philosophy of despair, helps extinguish the light of Abraham which had shone so brightly up to that very day.
--- End quote ---
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