Non-Jewish supporters?

[Dr. Dan]

Another question; If I'm born a gentile and my mother converts, am I therefore a Jew by default?!

If before giving birth to you, your mother converted appropriately to Judaism, then when you are born you are a Jew by default.  But if she converted after you were born, then you would have to convert too.

[Dr. Dan]

No one here said there is inherently more value in a mother or in a father.  We all cherish both mothers and fathers.   The question is through which one is the connection to the Jewish nation passed.   It is passed through the mother.  That does not denigrate fathers.   The priestly class (kohanim) as well as the lineage of the monarchy (from King David) is patrilineal.

 

But in a subtle way it puts more importance on the mother in the process of reproduction choice. If I'm to have a child with a gentile, my child would therefore be a gentile, my process in the whole thing is minimalized even tho by genetic logic, it doesn't make a difference. How does a faith get passed on by a mother moreso than a father?

Also, is King David therefore not a Jew???

You quoted a wiki pedia article about Ashkenazi Jews.   Can you tell us something about it so we know what point you are trying to make?   This clearly does not support your claims.   Was this to inform us that Ashkenazi Jews exist?  Clearly we've gone over in this thread that they do, as do other groups, who together prove that genetics including racial features in the face and skin tone, do not determine whether someone is Jewish or not.   Ashkenazi Jews prove MY point.

Please tell me you're joking. Here I am arguing with you about the wether being Jewish is a genetic trait, and you don't see how that's relevant to an article about Jews being ethnicity defined by genetics? if you weren't a believer, I'd say some pretty derogatory things about now.

What is an Ashkenazi "Jew" then? and ethnicity happening to share the same noun as people of a religion described as "Judaism"?

Jew  (j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

Is that wrong? does having a Jewish father not make the child partially related to the ancient Hebrews?

Because the mother is much more involved in raising her children than the father is...

Secondly the concept of Ashkanazi Jews and Sephardic Jews describes the regions and traditions a certain Jew will come from. Ashkanazi Jews are of European decent while Sephardic Jews are of North African, Middle Eastern, Oriental decent.

[Dr. Dan]

As Rabbi Kahane used to say, we are a religio-nation.

That means, the Jewish people are not defined solely by "race" or "genetics" or even location (although we do have a land that is ours and strive to go back there).   It is also not merely defined by "religion."  You are not a Jew just by believing a certain thing.   There are guidelines.  We combine both aspects, religion and national affiliation, as our identity.  And this is his understanding of the Torah.    Not waxing poetic on some forum after reading a few wikipedia articles.

So any Muslim who converts to Judaism therefore has a right to the land? I wonder if they thought of this yet...

What about all the idiot negroes from USA who call themselves the "real" Jews? should Israel let them all in?

Any gentile-Christian or Muslim-who genuinely wants to convert to Judaism can become a Jew. 

Those idiot negroes that call themselves the Black Hebrews are nothing more than Gorillas that should be put back in their cage..No, they are not Jews nor HEbrews..they are Dung Heroes.

[Dr. Dan]

Nonsensical.  Judaism is not a race.  We are a group of people descended matrilineally from the tribes of Yaakov.  (Including a class of kohanim descended patrilineally from Aaron, etc).  That is sufficient.  Why do you need it to be a race?

Well, replace race with ethnicity. Ethincally we are a sub-race known as the Hebrews. Who was the original Jew? an Arab? that's what we are then.

Dude the Japanese are not Chinese just because they have slanted eyes...Jews are not Arabs...Jews originally came from the Middle east part of the world...But today, you have Jews that look different from each other....some white and fair skinned, others tan, and others black..some with slanty eyes...and then you have a bunch that are a mix of everything and convert...Explain how Jews are a race then...Jews all over the world for the most part genetically dissimilar from each other..your idea of them being a race is way off...maybe you don't konw the definition of the word "race"...

[Dr. Dan]

Originally it had to do with religion.  Then when racial theories, Darwinism, eugenics, and other modern hate mechanisms developed post-enlightenment, the hatred was redirected into a racial format.  This is a modern development that did not exist previously because theories of race, anthropology, sociology did not exist!

But don't you see, this in a way benefits my argument. As I already stated, people back then didn't know about genetics, which is more than likely what made them write the law of the mother. As several Jews on yahoo answers told me, you don't always know who the true father is, so this might be a reason for the original law. Unless you can later clarify the actual reasons for this law, I'm sticking to that belief.

Why you take their hatred at face value and assume it is on truthful terms is a reflection of ignorance of the historical development and ignorance of the facts.   When racial hatred of Jews first developed, they did not have complicated DNA testing, in fact, they didn't even know what DNA was at that time or that it existed.   So they weren't searching for Cohen genes and semitic genes and then labelling people based on that into groups.   So you are basically taking the terms of modern discourse (the discourse of modern racists and neo-nazis hijacked from scientific generalities) and now superimposing them, not only as if they are true (which they aren't), but as if they apply to the course of history.

They still no doubt had some ideas about it and some stereotypes. How can we deny that the major percentage of Jews share certain traits which make them identifiable as Jews? My success for spotting Jews is about 80%, it's not even shocking to see a celebrity, think he's a Jew and see on wikipedia "born to a Jewish family in...". Also, Jews always made sure to marry other Jews, so this also had a big part in identification of Jews.

Disown?    Are you serious?   There is no such thing as "disowning a Jew who has a gentile mother" because that person is not a Jew in the first place.   If he feels so "disowned" or disconnected and wants to join the Jewish people he can convert.    If a person is a Jew, he is not disowned by other Jews (or at least shouldn't be).   If a person is not a Jew, there is nothing to talk about.    Again, I need to stress here to you, because you seem to not understand this, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING A GENTILE! .

Well that's the general idea. For example, my friend with a Jewish father who I went to synagouge with once (my step-father was a semi-practicing Jew so took us a few times). People joked how to Jews he's a gentile and to gentiles he is a Jew, I wonder what impression that made on him even when he looked like a Jew, faced the same hatred Jews (of course as you pointed out not a justification) and had a Jewish father.

You seem to think that any existence other than a Jewish one is worthless and to be denigrated.   THIS is racist.

Eh? I'm speaking about Rabbis and their views on fellow Jews... or Hebrews to be more specific.

The Jewish religion is the ONLY religion which is passed on through the parents (or specifically a mother for some reason). The ONLY religion that claims to be part of a certain tribe and the ONLY religion which where the idea is that we are the chosen people (something I don't believe). How can you be "chosen" if you can easily convert into the circle of the chosen people? how can you be related to the tribes of Yaakov if you're a Chinese convert and how can a mother pass on a religion better than the father other than due to a rule that I can't find an explanation for?

It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..

You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...

[muman613]

Axel, my nebbuch friend...

I have quoted for you explicit Talmudic references and Torah sources for the establishment of Matrilinear descent. All you have to do is go back a few pages to review this truth. Your rejection of Judaism is evident and you think you can make up laws as you like. This is not Jewish and it leads to the destruction of the Jewish people.

If you continue to argue about this I will just discount you as an apikoris and one who forfeits his place in olam haba... I am sorry you have so much anger at the Jewish religion and need to think of it in racial terms. This is a sad way to look at Hashems chosen nation. We don't need genetics to prove we merit the Holy Land. The promise made to Abraham was to all Jews, even those who joined the tribe...

Many righteous gentiles have converted to Judaism and they are considered as Abrahams children. If you read Genesis you learn that Abraham brought many people to believe in the One G-d of Israel.

Please talk to a competent Rabbi about these issues. May he have the patients of Abraham to bring you to understand the infinite Wisdom of the Jewish laws.

[Axel]

Because the mother is much more involved in raising her children than the father is...

Are you speaking of personal experience?

Secondly the concept of Ashkanazi Jews and Sefardic Jews describes the regions and traditions a certain Jew will come from. Ashkanazi Jews are of European decent while Sefardic Jews are of North African, Middle Eastern, Oriental decent.

Yes, but they share a similar genetic trait for the most part. They just happen to be from different regions.

[Axel]

Jews are not Arabs...Jews originally came from the Middle east part of the world...Explain how Jews are a race then..your idea of them being a race is way off...maybe you don't konw the definition of the word "race"...

In a way you answered your own question friend. I will however retract my use of the word "race" and replace it with "ethnicity".

[Axel]

It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..

Yes, it is not. Which brings me back to the story of my half-Jewish friend, who as a child felt disowned by the Jewish community because his mother was a gentile. As you said, not easy to convert, especially for a child. All because of a stupid law.

You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...

This is exactly what you did by calling me a demented idiot. Passed judgment without being humble.

[Dr. Dan]

It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..

Yes, it is not. Which brings me back to the story of my half-Jewish friend, who as a child felt disowned by the Jewish community because his mother was a gentile. As you said, not easy to convert, especially for a child. All because of a stupid law.

You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...

This is exactly what you did by calling me a demented idiot. Passed judgment without being humble.

Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....

[Axel]

I have quoted for you explicit Talmudic references and Torah sources for the establishment of Matrilinear descent. All you have to do is go back a few pages to review this truth. Your rejection of Judaism is evident and you think you can make up laws as you like. This is not Jewish and it leads to the destruction of the Jewish people.

Can you post the specific quote? polish the diamond so to speak.

How is anything I'm saying destructive? that we should accept people with Jewish fathers as Jews? if anything, keeping them out of our tribe is destructive. Especially when we are outnumbered by enemies 200 to 1. As I said there are only 14 million of us, who knows what great Jews and supporters went under the radar because they had a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother.

We don't need genetics to prove we merit the Holy Land. The promise made to Abraham was to all Jews, even those who joined the tribe...

Ok, so why not make this more clear to anti-semites? why make it a mother thing in the first place? why not be like Christians and allow anyone to join as long as they believe in the same principles?

Also, you detract from anything I'm saying here. I'm saying that gentiles with Jewish fathers have the EXACT same claim to Judaism as those born of Jewish mothers. Many revisionist Rabbis agree, shouldn't Jews question everything after all?

What benefit does this matriarchial law have to us... at all? what would happen if we change it? acknowledge that more Jews exist? how terrible.

I fight for the Hebrew people, not just those who believe in Judaism. I don't want a fellow Hebrew or half-Hebrew to get discriminated against for simply having a Jewish father, and not even get the support of his own people because of this law written by Jews a long time ago.

Speaking of destruction, if these laws were meant to protect us we wouldn't suffer so many pogroms.

[Dr. Dan]

I have quoted for you explicit Talmudic references and Torah sources for the establishment of Matrilinear descent. All you have to do is go back a few pages to review this truth. Your rejection of Judaism is evident and you think you can make up laws as you like. This is not Jewish and it leads to the destruction of the Jewish people.

Can you post the specific quote? polish the diamond so to speak.

How is anything I'm saying destructive? that we should accept people with Jewish fathers as Jews? if anything, keeping them out of our tribe is destructive. Especially when we are outnumbered by enemies 200 to 1. As I said there are only 14 million of us, who knows what great Jews and supporters went under the radar because they had a Jewish father and not a Jewish mother.

We don't need genetics to prove we merit the Holy Land. The promise made to Abraham was to all Jews, even those who joined the tribe...

Ok, so why not make this more clear to anti-semites? why make it a mother thing in the first place? why not be like Christians and allow anyone to join as long as they believe in the same principles?

Also, you detract from anything I'm saying here. I'm saying that gentiles with Jewish fathers have the EXACT same claim to Judaism as those born of Jewish mothers. Many revisionist Rabbis agree, shouldn't Jews question everything after all?

What benefit does this matriarchial law have to us... at all? what would happen if we change it? acknowledge that more Jews exist? how terrible.

I fight for the Hebrew people, not just those who believe in Judaism. I don't want a fellow Hebrew or half-Hebrew to get discriminated against for simply having a Jewish father, and not even get the support of his own people because of this law written by Jews a long time ago.

Speaking of destruction, if these laws were meant to protect us we wouldn't suffer so many pogroms.

Axel, you don't belong here on this forum..i suggest you go elsewhere..or else we'll make you go elsewhere.

[cjd]

It's not easy to convert to Judaism, buddy..

Yes, it is not. Which brings me back to the story of my half-Jewish friend, who as a child felt disowned by the Jewish community because his mother was a gentile. As you said, not easy to convert, especially for a child. All because of a stupid law.

You are such an idiot after reading all your posts...you don't believe in this and you dont' believe in that..but you only believe what you right to you and therefore it is the golden rule for the whole world..you are nothing more than demented idiot...Learn to be more humble before you pass judgement...

This is exactly what you did by calling me a demented idiot. Passed judgment without being humble.

Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....

Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...

[Axel]

Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....

Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned

HA, the thanks I get for fighting for Jewish rights and fighting Muslim lies about Israel.

I thought 14 million Jews would at least work together for a better future, but now I see the true personality of some of you.

No wonder so many people hate us...

[muman613]

Axel,

It has been shown that once a Jewish family starts to intermarry, by the second or third generation they have completely left the religion and become atheists of Christians. There is a reason that Torah mandated that Mothers pass the Jewish trait to their children. I believe that everything in Torah is for a purpose, and that purpose is eternal, as long as the Jewish nation exists. There is no seperation between Torah and the Jewish people in my mind.

I really think you have good intentions at heart and don't call for your banning. I think you have issues which need to be investigated by your own introspection and study. We call this process Tefillah, or prayer, because during prayer you examine yourself and ask for help where you are lacking. Please engage in this prayer, and also seek some understanding of why Jews will keep Torah.

I apologize for your circumstance. If you are honest you will work things out and stand with the righteous. I have come to accept that I am not the one making the rules. And like life doesn't always seem fair, but it is definately just.

[Axel]

I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...

I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.

[Axel]

Axel,

It has been shown that once a Jewish family starts to intermarry, by the second or third generation they have completely left the religion and become atheists of Christians. There is a reason that Torah mandated that Mothers pass the Jewish trait to their children. I believe that everything in Torah is for a purpose, and that purpose is eternal, as long as the Jewish nation exists. There is no seperation between Torah and the Jewish people in my mind.

I understand this, but still think a Jewish woman marrying a non-Jew isn't very likely to keep the Jewish faith. Infact I think the Jewish father, who is a rolemodel for the child, will help them keep their roots. All I'm saying is that a person who shares the Hebrew ethnicity should get some recognition... that's all.

Anyway, I will stop this argument. My goal is to fight muslims, not fellow Jews.

[cjd]

Ban this smartass....he doesn't belong here and hates Jews and what Judaism stands for....

Your being to nice to the piece of crap abuse him a bit. He can always be banned

HA, the thanks I get for fighting for Jewish rights and fighting Muslim lies about Israel.

I thought 14 million Jews would at least work together for a better future, but now I see the true personality of some of you.

No wonder so many people hate us...

People here are trying to tell you what the right thing is and you give them a hard time. The Jewish people here follow Torah guidelines they don't cut corners. They have been trying to tell you the right thing but you refuse to listen.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Because the mother is much more involved in raising her children than the father is...

Are you speaking of personal experience?

Secondly the concept of Ashkanazi Jews and Sefardic Jews describes the regions and traditions a certain Jew will come from. Ashkanazi Jews are of European decent while Sefardic Jews are of North African, Middle Eastern, Oriental decent.

Yes, but they share a similar genetic trait for the most part. They just happen to be from different regions.

They are not actually "from" those regions.   They are all originally from the same region, which is the Land of Israel.  These groups spread out after the destruction of Jerusalem and end of Jewish sovereignty.   And as you can see, despite far fetched dna analyses, their appearances have changed greatly and look very different from each other.  That is, Moroccon jews look very different than Ethiopian, which look very different from Yemenite, which look different from Iraqi which look very different from Ashkenazim.  And this is speaking racially.  Racially, they look very different.  There IS a genetic component to these differences in appearance, which you of course conveniently ignore.   That is because it takes very little inbreeding with surrounding cultures to acquire facial characteristics and other physical similarities.   With a handful of converts and a handful intermarriages say every 20 years, over a few centuries the once distinct population group can come out looking very similar due to very little mixing.   The reason is of course that "racial" differences in genetics are very subtle despite how qualitatively different people appear to look when they have different skin colors, as an example.   That is because skin color like many physical traits is governed by polygenic inheritance.

Like I said before, the genetic relatedness you keep trumpeting is not a proof to you.   Of course there will be a genetic connection since originally all the Jews descended from the 12 tribes (and later from the Jewish nation living in Eretz Yisrael) before different groups were dispersed to different places and took on characteristics and influences of their new neighbors over many centuries.   That there is some farfetched genetic linkage between disparate groups of Jews is just as much a proof to what we say.   But ultimately, there is genetic linkage between all peoples because all humans descend from the same origin and ultimately all human beings are related.   So of course such an analysis means nothing.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I said like three pages ago that this creature is probably from StørmFrønt. Nobody heeded that...

I really am from StørmFrønt. I post there all the time... in the opposing views section defending the Jewish people.

Precisely.  And the mistake you're making is exactly what I said it is before.   You are speaking to them and trying to relate to them on their terms.   You take it for a granted that their terms are truthful and scientific and accurate.   But this is not the case.   You make the mistake of agreeing to their false assumptions and then trying to refute them from within their own paradigm.   This is silly and a dishonest pursuit that is ultimately fruitless.   And agreeing to their garbage probably makes them respect you a lot less and also makes them more convinced that their incorrect assumptions are right.

[Axel]

People here are trying to tell you what the right thing is and you give them a hard time. The Jewish people here follow Torah guidelines they don't cut corners. They have been trying to tell you the right thing but you refuse to listen.

You have to understand that I've never followed the Torah, so my understanding is a bit different. As I was taught about my Jewish identity from anti-semites as I got older.

Anyway, I'm not gona argue about this anymore.

[Axel]

They are not actually "from" those regions.   They are all originally from the same region, which is the Land of Israel.  These groups spread out after the destruction of Jerusalem and end of Jewish sovereignty.  

See that's what I believe, that's why I think someone with relation to those people of the land of Israel are still at least part-Hebrew as their father is a direct descendant and just as likely to pass on his family tree to the child.

But anyway, this is my last message here regarding the Jewish tradition. I never intended on offending anyone. Forgive my ignorance of the Jewish religion.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

They are not actually "from" those regions.   They are all originally from the same region, which is the Land of Israel.  These groups spread out after the destruction of Jerusalem and end of Jewish sovereignty.  

See that's what I believe, that's why I think someone with relation to those people of the land of Israel are still at least part-Hebrew as their father is a direct descendant and just as likely to pass on his family tree to the child.

Racially and genetically, he is.  But that does not make him a Jew.   There are many christians and moslems who are also physical descendents of Jews who were either forced to convert or were apostates.   Just being a physical descendent does not mean they are a Jew.  Even though "genetically" they have the genes of Jewish people in their family heritage and racially might even look similar to one.   It makes no difference.

This was why I cited to you the case of Ishmael.   Ishmael was Avraham's other son.  The Arab Moslems claim descent from Ishmael and traditionally we see the Arabs/bedouins as sons of Ishmael.   None of these are considered Jewish, even though the descendents of Avraham's other son, Yitzhak, are Jews.   So you see, the Arabs descend from a Jew, the Jewish man Avraham, and yet they are not Jewish.  Even though genetically speaking they are sons of Avraham too.  So what?  That doesn't make someone Jewish.  That is what it comes down to.  Genetics don't determine that or else all Arabs would be Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But anyway, this is my last message here regarding the Jewish tradition. I never intended on offending anyone. Forgive my ignorance of the Jewish religion.

I don't think you have to stop talking but it would help you to be a bit more respectful of Torah (Written and Oral), and to be more respectful of gentiles.