Author Topic: Muslims in JTF?!?  (Read 3923 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2010, 11:58:37 PM »
I know some very good righteous converts and the ones I know are very sincere and Torah observant. I have spent Shabbat with some of these converts and they keep kosher and some have even had circumcisions in their adulthood. To me this indicates a commitment to the Jewish people.

We learn from the Torah that we are to love the convert. As I have said before I do not suggest that Jews evangelize non-Jews to convert to our sacred beliefs. But if a non-Jew has the spark of a Jewish neshamah, and the Torah commandments are seen like precious stones to them, I am completely supportive of their desire to convert.

I may have a bit of a liberal position concerning this. But I have my sources in Torah for feeling like this.

Quote
http://www.jewishmag.com/40mag/shamai/shamai.htm
The stories of Hillel and Shammai told in the Talmud do seem to justify this unhappy reputation: "The gentile came before Shammai and requested, 'Convert me on condition that you teach me the entire Torah while I stand on one foot.' He [Shammai] pushed him out with the ruler in his hand. He then came before Hillel, who converted him. Hillel addressed to him the immortal words, 'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn.'" Afterwards, the successful convert declared in the presence of Hillel and Shammai that it was Hillel who had been his salvation.

Quote
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/48964556.html
Ekev(Deuteronomy 7:12-11:25)
Loving the Convert


    "...[G-d] loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. You must also show love toward the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt." (Deut. 10:18-19)

The Torah informs us of G-d's great love for the ger (convert). Since we are required to emulate G-d, it follows that we must also love the convert. Why, then, is it necessary to add, "for you were gerim in Egypt?"

Maimonides (Responsa No. 369) points out that the Torah commands us to respect and honor our parents and obey a prophet, but it does not command us to love them. Yet we are commanded to love the convert just as we are commanded to love G-d. To understand this we must understand the Torah concept of love.

The numerical value of "love" is the same as "one." Love is the product of unity between individuals, a recognition of a commonality and affinity. In our relationship to G-d this commonality is intrinsic, since we are created in G-d's image. Likewise, we share common responsibilities and goals with our fellow Jew. He is our peer in Torah and mitzvot. Parents and spouses, however, aside from the intrinsic commonality they share as Jews, may have nothing else in common.

Of course we must work to develop and nurture an affinity and commonality in the latter relationships. Love of a parent is an enhancement of honor; love of a spouse is a rabbinical directive (Maimonides, Ishus 15:19). And most certainly it is an ideal to love and honor the righteous. However, the Torah did not command us to create an affinity where it does not exist intrinsically. Rather, where such an affinity exists naturally, the Torah commands us to develop it.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 12:04:34 AM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ~Hanna~

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2010, 12:16:29 AM »
I am just wondering if there are any non converts that you love?



I know some very good righteous converts and the ones I know are very sincere and Torah observant. I have spent Shabbat with some of these converts and they keep kosher and some have even had circumcisions in their adulthood. To me this indicates a commitment to the Jewish people.

We learn from the Torah that we are to love the convert. As I have said before I do not suggest that Jews evangelize non-Jews to convert to our sacred beliefs. But if a non-Jew has the spark of a Jewish neshamah, and the Torah commandments are seen like precious stones to them, I am completely supportive of their desire to convert.

I may have a bit of a liberal position concerning this. But I have my sources in Torah for feeling like this.

Quote
http://www.jewishmag.com/40mag/shamai/shamai.htm
The stories of Hillel and Shammai told in the Talmud do seem to justify this unhappy reputation: "The gentile came before Shammai and requested, 'Convert me on condition that you teach me the entire Torah while I stand on one foot.' He [Shammai] pushed him out with the ruler in his hand. He then came before Hillel, who converted him. Hillel addressed to him the immortal words, 'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn.'" Afterwards, the successful convert declared in the presence of Hillel and Shammai that it was Hillel who had been his salvation.

Quote
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/48964556.html
Ekev(Deuteronomy 7:12-11:25)
Loving the Convert


    "...[G-d] loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. You must also show love toward the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt." (Deut. 10:18-19)

The Torah informs us of G-d's great love for the ger (convert). Since we are required to emulate G-d, it follows that we must also love the convert. Why, then, is it necessary to add, "for you were gerim in Egypt?"

Maimonides (Responsa No. 369) points out that the Torah commands us to respect and honor our parents and obey a prophet, but it does not command us to love them. Yet we are commanded to love the convert just as we are commanded to love G-d. To understand this we must understand the Torah concept of love.

The numerical value of "love" is the same as "one." Love is the product of unity between individuals, a recognition of a commonality and affinity. In our relationship to G-d this commonality is intrinsic, since we are created in G-d's image. Likewise, we share common responsibilities and goals with our fellow Jew. He is our peer in Torah and mitzvot. Parents and spouses, however, aside from the intrinsic commonality they share as Jews, may have nothing else in common.

Of course we must work to develop and nurture an affinity and commonality in the latter relationships. Love of a parent is an enhancement of honor; love of a spouse is a rabbinical directive (Maimonides, Ishus 15:19). And most certainly it is an ideal to love and honor the righteous. However, the Torah did not command us to create an affinity where it does not exist intrinsically. Rather, where such an affinity exists naturally, the Torah commands us to develop it.

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Offline muman613

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2010, 12:27:06 AM »
I am just wondering if there are any non converts that you love?


<snip>


I understand many different levels of Love... I love all of humanity in a way. I love all of creation in a way. I see the world, I believe, as the Talmud tells us that Hashem wanted us to see it... That the entire world was created for me. I know that this sounds like a selfish outlook, and it can indeed be a selfish outlook on life. But the Jew is also supposed to emulate Hashems mercy and kindness. I have been blessed to have the opportunity to touch and influence people around me. I give what I can, help those in need with money and a place to live. And I love my animals, feed them before I eat. I say blessings on almost everything I can {though I really think I can say more}.

I love all the good JTFers here. I have no problem saying that to the women and the men alike. I am talking about the love of a community, the kind of love which I would miss if any one of you should no longer come to JTF. I hope to be around here for a long time, at least till Moshiach comes and Israel is restored to her former glory, with JTFers and Chaim having a special place in the world to come.

I hope that you understand what I am saying...

Quote
http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/kahn/archives/chayei69.htm
Summary

Abraham went through a lot of effort to acquire the Cave of Machpeilah as a burial site for Sarah. The field and the Cave "rose" as they became the property of Abraham. "Every individual is obligated to say, 'The world was created for me." By creating man as an individual, G'd showed the importance of every single human being. The awareness of our importance is actually humbling and only helps us to make the right choices in life. A person should live with a constant awareness that every act one does may tip the scale and make a difference for the entire world. If a person uses this world as a means to serve G'd he will bring every part of Creation, that he is in touch with, to its purpose as it serves and assists G'd's servant to reach his potential and purpose. We all have our individual, unique purpose in life, and it is up to us to utilize our possessions and assets and elevate them as did our Patriarch Abraham.

 Whole world created for me

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 37a) discusses why the creation of the first human being was different than the creation of all other creatures. The male and female of every animal were created at that same time. However, Adam was created single, and lived for a little while as the only human being in the world, before Eve was created. Says the Talmud: "this is why Adam was created as an individual; to teach you that whoever destroys a single Jewish soul is considered destroying a complete world. And whoever saves a single Jewish soul is considered saving a complete world. [The Kabbalists explain that all Jewish souls were entailed in the soul of Adam.] … Therefore, every individual is obligated to say, 'The world was created for me.'"
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Raulmarrio2000

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2010, 12:38:01 AM »
Yes, Muman, a sincere convert is 100% Jewish. But an ex-Muslim who feels empty cannot use Judaism to fill his emptiness. That would be a desecration!
Edward, a Muslim should never convert to Paganism because it's idolatry (forbidden by the Noahide Laws).

If someone is Muslim and finds mistakes or violence in Islam, his way is to be a faithfull Noachide. He may feel empty because Islam has many rites and the Noachides Laws involve no rites, except for some voluntary prayer. But a person must accept the truth and not live in a comfortable lie by converting to any religion to which he is not committed, just to enjoy celebrations for his own sake and not for G-od's sake.

Offline muman613

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2010, 12:39:14 AM »
Yes, Muman, a sincere convert is 100% Jewish. But an ex-Muslim who feels empty cannot use Judaism to fill his emptiness. That would be a desecration!
Edward, a Muslim should never convert to Paganism because it's idolatry (forbidden by the Noahide Laws).

If someone is Muslim and finds mistakes or violence in Islam, his way is to be a faithfull Noachide. He may feel empty because Islam has many rites and the Noachides Laws involve no rites, except for some voluntary prayer. But a person must accept the truth and not live in a comfortable lie by converting to any religion to which he is not committed, just to enjoy celebrations for his own sake and not for G-od's sake.

Of course I would not recommend a Muslim convert... But there are stories of Muslims who find out that they were originally Jewish through their mothers and then I would say there may be hope that they can return to Judaism...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ~Hanna~

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2010, 12:41:24 AM »
Yes, I understand. I was just checking....

Thankyou....

I am just wondering if there are any non converts that you love?


<snip>


I understand many different levels of Love... I love all of humanity in a way. I love all of creation in a way. I see the world, I believe, as the Talmud tells us that Hashem wanted us to see it... That the entire world was created for me. I know that this sounds like a selfish outlook, and it can indeed be a selfish outlook on life. But the Jew is also supposed to emulate Hashems mercy and kindness. I have been blessed to have the opportunity to touch and influence people around me. I give what I can, help those in need with money and a place to live. And I love my animals, feed them before I eat. I say blessings on almost everything I can {though I really think I can say more}.

I love all the good JTFers here. I have no problem saying that to the women and the men alike. I am talking about the love of a community, the kind of love which I would miss if any one of you should no longer come to JTF. I hope to be around here for a long time, at least till Moshiach comes and Israel is restored to her former glory, with JTFers and Chaim having a special place in the world to come.

I hope that you understand what I am saying...

Quote
http://www.shemayisrael.com/Parasha/kahn/archives/chayei69.htm
Summary

Abraham went through a lot of effort to acquire the Cave of Machpeilah as a burial site for Sarah. The field and the Cave "rose" as they became the property of Abraham. "Every individual is obligated to say, 'The world was created for me." By creating man as an individual, G'd showed the importance of every single human being. The awareness of our importance is actually humbling and only helps us to make the right choices in life. A person should live with a constant awareness that every act one does may tip the scale and make a difference for the entire world. If a person uses this world as a means to serve G'd he will bring every part of Creation, that he is in touch with, to its purpose as it serves and assists G'd's servant to reach his potential and purpose. We all have our individual, unique purpose in life, and it is up to us to utilize our possessions and assets and elevate them as did our Patriarch Abraham.

 Whole world created for me

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 37a) discusses why the creation of the first human being was different than the creation of all other creatures. The male and female of every animal were created at that same time. However, Adam was created single, and lived for a little while as the only human being in the world, before Eve was created. Says the Talmud: "this is why Adam was created as an individual; to teach you that whoever destroys a single Jewish soul is considered destroying a complete world. And whoever saves a single Jewish soul is considered saving a complete world. [The Kabbalists explain that all Jewish souls were entailed in the soul of Adam.] … Therefore, every individual is obligated to say, 'The world was created for me.'"

SHEMA ISRAEL
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Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2010, 10:17:14 AM »
I wont forget the arguments of HinduZionist, I admit that a part of Jane Mandir was damaged in 1992 in the fury that erupted in retaliation to the destruction of Baburi Mosque in india, and khiljis are not mughals and even I am not the blood thirsty mongol any more, even you are not those hindus any more who use to burn alive the wives of the deceased along with the corpses of their husbands. We are not living in the history any more and not repeating the mistakes of our elders. The point of claiming royalty pun as you are doing so much to get decent rights to Zionist perhaps you could have done something for me ). No hard feelings intended friend. 

If someone could help me in my quest further do feel free to contact me [email protected].
1992 we destroyed a muslim mosque which was built by an invader on our Holiest shrine, and in retaliation you people destroyed a Jain(NOT Hindu,But Jain) temple. And the Jain Temple stood there before even Islam came to Sindh(Pak). Yet you seem to defend it by claiming it was done in retaliation. Man, you crack me up. ;D

ok Khiljis was a Turk and not Moghul, but he was Muslim anyway.. who followed the Quran. What about Moghul Muhammad Gazni who destoryed our Holy Temple of Somnath 18 TIMES?? You people till present day worship these people as Islamic heros of SOuth Asia(your earlier post revealed that you wish to claim royalties to the acts of Moghuls who ruled India for 800 yrs), yet you LIE by saying you people have moved on, Taqiyya at its best!!

Quote: "you are not those hindus any more who use to burn alive the wives of the deceased along with the corpses of their husbands" Yes its unfortunate we had to burn our women along with their deceased husbands, in the past" Which was only to protect the dignity of the women, who else would have been kidnapped by Muslim Kings and stored in Harem, and abused sexually by hungry muslim soldiers.
Even Sikhs did that watch this ( ) The Sikh father had to slaughter all his daughter, just so that they are saved from kidnapping of Muslims.

there may be certain things in Hindu scriptures like caste system,sati..etc which maybe unsuitable.. but understand that our books are philosphical, and not ordained or commandments for Hindus, we have thousands of philosphical scriptures, we can follow any one of them, and ignore others or We can easily discard any verse and move on, Can you edit parts of Quran and sell it?? Can you accept certain parts of quran are wrong and need to be revised? Absolutely Not. Which makes you rigid and wicked.

And i can see your jealously of seeing Hindus co-operating with Jews,Zionists and benefiting. This is just the beginning, a time will come when the whole world will corner Islam. You keep saying that Islam has 1.5 billion followers and so it is powerful,blah blah. Remember that many bigger and wealther civilizations have gone, like Greeks,Egyptions,Persians,Mongols who wanted to conquer continents, in the end each one of them imploded. Islam is only existing cause of Oil. Islamic countires who dont have oil resources have pathetic conditions (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia..etc).

Offline ~Hanna~

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2010, 12:19:15 PM »
Oh wow HZ, I just watched the video....the Sikh was explaining what happened, in 1947. He was there.  :'( :'( :'(
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2010, 12:57:49 PM »
And i can see your jealously of seeing Hindus co-operating with Jews,Zionists and benefiting. This is just the beginning, a time will come when the whole world will corner Islam. You keep saying that Islam has 1.5 billion followers and so it is powerful,blah blah. Remember that many bigger and wealther civilizations have gone, like Greeks,Egyptions,Persians,Mongols who wanted to conquer continents, in the end each one of them imploded. Islam is only existing cause of Oil. Islamic countires who dont have oil resources have pathetic conditions (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia..etc).

Great post HZ!

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2010, 01:11:18 PM »
Oh wow HZ, I just watched the video....the Sikh was explaining what happened, in 1947. He was there.  :'( :'( :'(
what happened in 1947 was in relatively smaller scale. It regularly happened when the Moghul's ruled india for 600-800 yrs..... So much so that it started to become a custom, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar
And i can see your jealously of seeing Hindus co-operating with Jews,Zionists and benefiting. This is just the beginning, a time will come when the whole world will corner Islam. You keep saying that Islam has 1.5 billion followers and so it is powerful,blah blah. Remember that many bigger and wealther civilizations have gone, like Greeks,Egyptions,Persians,Mongols who wanted to conquer continents, in the end each one of them imploded. Islam is only existing cause of Oil. Islamic countires who dont have oil resources have pathetic conditions (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia..etc).

Great post HZ!
thanks, i can go on and on, but it will cause nervous breakdown for this fagtai, who then might take out his frustration on a poor Jain in Pakistan ;D

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2010, 01:16:07 PM »
Quote
Islam is only existing cause of Oil. Islamic countries who don't have oil resources have pathetic conditions (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia..etc)

This is the absolute truth.  As soon as we are off oil... Islam will atrophy.

Of course Islam may be beaten into a pulp before this happens.

Either way a world sans Islam is a good one.  No more "Islamic thighing" [WTF!  Mohamed/Khomeini were nuts].
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

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Offline syyuge

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2010, 02:37:48 PM »
Oh wow HZ, I just watched the video....the Sikh was explaining what happened, in 1947. He was there.  :'( :'( :'(
what happened in 1947 was in relatively smaller scale. It regularly happened when the Moghul's ruled india for 600-800 yrs..... So much so that it started to become a custom, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar
And i can see your jealously of seeing Hindus co-operating with Jews,Zionists and benefiting. This is just the beginning, a time will come when the whole world will corner Islam. You keep saying that Islam has 1.5 billion followers and so it is powerful,blah blah. Remember that many bigger and wealther civilizations have gone, like Greeks,Egyptions,Persians,Mongols who wanted to conquer continents, in the end each one of them imploded. Islam is only existing cause of Oil. Islamic countires who dont have oil resources have pathetic conditions (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia..etc).

Great post HZ!
thanks, i can go on and on, but it will cause nervous breakdown for this fagtai, who then might take out his frustration on a poor Jain in Pakistan ;D

India has a huge unparalleled horrific saga of massacres, cruelty and vandalism brought by muslamics and the eternal retaliations by the Indians, so much so that billions of Chugadtai's can not convince anyone.

My own ancestors had to migrate to the Nepali Himalayan regions for hundreds of years till muslamic rule was shattered and India shall be retaliating till the last muslamic is withdrawn from the earth. 
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2010, 05:34:37 PM »
I was sad when HZ said that Muslims had attacked a Jain temple. Talk about a religion of peace! Jainism followers don't even want to step on bugs! I obviously don't agree with the Jain religion but the idea of such peaceful people getting visciously attacked by bloodthirsty Muslims is very sad.

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2010, 06:06:54 PM »
I was sad when HZ said that Muslims had attacked a Jain temple. Talk about a religion of peace! Jainism followers don't even want to step on bugs! I obviously don't agree with the Jain religion but the idea of such peaceful people getting visciously attacked by bloodthirsty Muslims is very sad.

Indeed. Jains don't even kill insects. Why are they being attacked?
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Offline GoIsraelGo!

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2010, 10:03:50 PM »
I noticed the muslim that was on this tread earlier was making excuses for islam.


This is the problem with muslims...they are brainwashed and have no identities.
muslims defend islam blindly knowing full well their cult is responsible for most of
the autrocities commited on Earth.



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Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2010, 02:34:19 AM »
I was sad when HZ said that Muslims had attacked a Jain temple. Talk about a religion of peace! Jainism followers don't even want to step on bugs! I obviously don't agree with the Jain religion but the idea of such peaceful people getting visciously attacked by bloodthirsty Muslims is very sad.
bugs? they dont even want to kill bacteria's, No i'm not joking. Read the tenth question here: http://yja.org/jainism-faq/
Bacteria have many of the same capabilities that human cells do. Therefore, they are living organisms just like us. That is why you see sadhus and sadhvis (monks and nuns) covering their mouth while speaking. This is in order to prevent their breath from killing bacteria in the air.


Offline Rubystars

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2010, 08:50:37 AM »
I've read about that before HZ. Is it true that their religious leaders starve themselves to death? I wasn't sure whether to believe that or not.

Offline ✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2010, 09:10:56 AM »
yes its called Santhara
according to Indian Laws it is prohibited and comes under the category of attempted sucide. Many Jain organisations have challeged this in courts, as they feel it goes against their belief. Only highly revered jain scholars do it mostly. 100 each year i guess.
There is a similar concept in Hinduism, but it doesnt involve fasting, but just deep meditation, the person goes into deep trance/meditation.. so much so that he/she forgets to breath, stopping oxygen supply to the brain and resultant death. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi). i think atleast 5 Hindu yogis achieve this every year.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2010, 09:17:32 AM »
Thanks for the information HZ. I think it's really sad that people do that. I don't think any good can be accomplished in the world if you're dead. I think people are here for a reason and should try to use their lives to accomplish good things rather than choose to die like that.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Muslims in JTF?!?
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2010, 09:22:09 AM »
I think we should keep him a little bit longer.  If anything, it's good for us to work on our debating skills, and it livens things up.  Besides, I can always ban him if he starts excusing terrorism.

I think you hit the nail right on the head here. I don't think it will do us as much good to just have forum members who all have the same exact views. Having a diversity of views will help us sharpen our debating skills and will only help us to make our cases that much stronger. So I think we should welcome people of all different persuasions including muslims, leftists, anti-zionists, and even relative liberals like myself :)