an urgent note from a conservative temple

[Dr. Dan]

Dear Members of the TBS Family,
 
As we approach the fast of Tisha B’Av which begins next Monday evening, I write to you with a heavy heart that is burdened not only by historical memory but by a very real crisis facing the Jewish people at this very moment.  Our rabbis taught that Jerusalem was destroyed long ago because of Sinat Chinam—baseless hatred among Jews.  The many fractures that divided Jewish society during Second Temple times contributed directly to the destruction of the Temple .  Today, the rifts between religious and secular, between Orthodoxy and more liberal streams of Judaism once again threaten to destroy the collective Jewish spirit not only in Israel , but throughout the world.
 
You may have heard of the pending legislation known as the Rotem Bill which seeks to empower the Orthodox Chief Rabbinate in Israel to an unprecedented degree.  Under this legislation, the Chief Rabbinate will gain complete and total control of conversion and the process of determining Jewish identity in Israel .  Conversions performed by non-Orthodox rabbis outside of Israel will no longer be recognized as valid for purposes of immigration to Israel under the Law of Return.  Thousands of Russian Jews in Israel seeking to confirm their Jewish identity in Israel will have to submit to the harsh requirements of the Chief Rabbinate.  If this legislation passes, so much of the progress made by the Conservative and Reform Movements in Israel will have been crushed.   Religious identity in Israel will fall under an official Orthodox monopoly.
 
I urge you not to let this happen.  Israel should always be the homeland for all Jews.  Please familiarize yourself with the details of this current crisis by following the links in the accompanying attachments and please send an e-mail directly to Prime Minister Netanyahu.  At this point only his personal intervention may save Israel from embarking on this perilous course which will cause so much hurt to so many Jews worldwide.
 
On this Tisha B’Av, let us work to ensure that the rebuilt city of Jerusalem will continue to serve as a source of unity, pride, and joy for us all

[Dr. Dan]

My response:

 don't listen to this brainwashing. Unfortunately, the conservative and reform movements have moved far off from what the Torah and Talmud teach. They pick and choose what is acceptable and that's not proper Judaism. Individual Jews are free to worship and follow what is meaningful to them however it is wrong when any Rabbi misguides Jews to do the wrong thing. The only authentic Judaism out there is Torah Judaism that not only upholds what the Torah says but also 1000's of years of what Rabbis taught in the Talmud. Orthodox groups are the only Jewish movements that authentically teach Judaism the proper way. Jews who genuinely want to convert should only go to a Rabbi that follows and believes in authentic Judaism and those are the majority orthodox. The conservatives feel its ok to bend the rules, but we are not supposed to do that nor should we be ok with Rabbis misguiding Jews that its ok to do that. I'm glad the Israeli rabbis are taking this step. Every Jew should strive in his or her lifetime to be more religious instead of assimilate with non Jews. Assimilating will lead to the destruction of the Jewish people whether it is spiritual holocaust or physical holocaust, Gd forbid. Yes there shouldn't be needless hatred between Jews, and I know that as long as Jews follow the rules in the Kotel, everything is fine. When non orthodox and secular and self hating Jews go to the Kotel and protest and the women try to pray on the man's side, the needless hatred is coming from them. Be careful what you hear from non orthodox rabbis.

[The One and Only Mo]

My response:

 don't listen to this brainwashing. Unfortunately, the conservative and reform movements have moved far off from what the Torah and Talmud teach. They pick and choose what is acceptable and that's not proper Judaism. Individual Jews are free to worship and follow what is meaningful to them however it is wrong when any Rabbi misguides Jews to do the wrong thing. The only authentic Judaism out there is Torah Judaism that not only upholds what the Torah says but also 1000's of years of what Rabbis taught in the Talmud. Orthodox groups are the only Jewish movements that authentically teach Judaism the proper way. Jews who genuinely want to convert should only go to a Rabbi that follows and believes in authentic Judaism and those are the majority orthodox. The conservatives feel its ok to bend the rules, but we are not supposed to do that nor should we be ok with Rabbis misguiding Jews that its ok to do that. I'm glad the Israeli rabbis are taking this step. Every Jew should strive in his or her lifetime to be more religious instead of assimilate with non Jews. Assimilating will lead to the destruction of the Jewish people whether it is spiritual holocaust or physical holocaust, Gd forbid. Yes there shouldn't be needless hatred between Jews, and I know that as long as Jews follow the rules in the Kotel, everything is fine. When non orthodox and secular and self hating Jews go to the Kotel and protest and the women try to pray on the man's side, the needless hatred is coming from them. Be careful what you hear from non orthodox rabbis.

[Dr. Dan]

Any comments?

[muman613]

I am 100% with you. I posted about this issue a couple of days ago...

I support recognition of only Orthodox conversions. I hope that this wont make it hard for me to make aliyah though because I am not sure that the records of my family are available. I know that my family, at least for 200 years, has been Jewish... But I have never seen any Ketubahs or other documentation. I have done a family tree which only goes back 120 years and I have been told by my mother that the entire family remained Jewish until this generation...

[The One and Only Mo]

I am 100% with you. I posted about this issue a couple of days ago...

I support recognition of only Orthodox conversions. I hope that this wont make it hard for me to make aliyah though because I am not sure that the records of my family are available. I know that my family, at least for 200 years, has been Jewish... But I have never seen any Ketubahs or other documentation. I have done a family tree which only goes back 120 years and I have been told by my mother that the entire family remained Jewish until this generation...

IY'H Mashiach will be here before you have to worry about aaliyah.

[White Israelite]

The problem is the Chief Rabbinite will not recognize Orthodox conversions done outside of Israel either, again, why should I have to reconvert and lose my Hebrew name when my parents are already Jewish and I am Jewish?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Dear Members of the TBS Family,
 
As we approach the fast of Tisha B’Av which begins next Monday evening, I write to you with a heavy heart that is burdened not only by historical memory but by a very real crisis facing the Jewish people at this very moment.  Our rabbis taught that Jerusalem was destroyed long ago because of Sinat Chinam—baseless hatred among Jews.  The many fractures that divided Jewish society during Second Temple times contributed directly to the destruction of the Temple .  Today, the rifts between religious and secular, between Orthodoxy and more liberal streams of Judaism once again threaten to destroy the collective Jewish spirit not only in Israel , but throughout the world.
 
You may have heard of the pending legislation known as the Rotem Bill which seeks to empower the Orthodox Chief Rabbinate in Israel to an unprecedented degree.  Under this legislation, the Chief Rabbinate will gain complete and total control of conversion and the process of determining Jewish identity in Israel .  Conversions performed by non-Orthodox rabbis outside of Israel will no longer be recognized as valid for purposes of immigration to Israel under the Law of Return.  Thousands of Russian Jews in Israel seeking to confirm their Jewish identity in Israel will have to submit to the harsh requirements of the Chief Rabbinate.  If this legislation passes, so much of the progress made by the Conservative and Reform Movements in Israel will have been crushed.   Religious identity in Israel will fall under an official Orthodox monopoly.
 
I urge you not to let this happen.  Israel should always be the homeland for all Jews.  Please familiarize yourself with the details of this current crisis by following the links in the accompanying attachments and please send an e-mail directly to Prime Minister Netanyahu.  At this point only his personal intervention may save Israel from embarking on this perilous course which will cause so much hurt to so many Jews worldwide.
 
On this Tisha B’Av, let us work to ensure that the rebuilt city of Jerusalem will continue to serve as a source of unity, pride, and joy for us all

Conversions by non Orthodox so-called "streams" of Judaism were never legitimate and never had authority no matter what people's delusions are.

[mord]

The problem is the Chief Rabbinite will not recognize Orthodox conversions done outside of Israel either, again, why should I have to reconvert and lose my Hebrew name when my parents are already Jewish and I am Jewish?

Yes that is a problem

[Yaakov Mendel]

Any comments?

I posted the following story a few days ago and I am just repeating it here as an extreme example of what should not happen :

I agree that conversions should be demanding if we want them to be sincere and not superficial. I remember a woman I met whose parents were not Jewish (neither the mother nor the father), who decided to "convert". To her, being Jewish implied nothing more than personal self-identification on an emotional level. She wrote a letter to some kind of bogus rabbi in which she literally declared herself Jewish : "I feel Jewish, I am Jewish anyway...", those were her exact terms ! She was not observant at all - no prayers, no shabbes, no visit to a synagogue except on "special occasions" (Yom Kippur !) ... She did not know a word of Hebrew ("too difficult and unnecessary" !). Of course, she "supported" Israel... as long as Labour/Kadima was in power ! (Guess what she thought about the "settlers"...).

You know what ? Her bogus rabbi "converted" her !

[White Israelite]

The problem is the Chief Rabbinite will not recognize Orthodox conversions done outside of Israel either, again, why should I have to reconvert and lose my Hebrew name when my parents are already Jewish and I am Jewish?

Yes that is a problem

It is a huge problem, granted a reconversion in Israel would probably be a little easier for me compared to say someone who was never Jewish or does not have Jewish ancestry at all, but this is a huge problem even today.

A convert is not supposd to be reminded of his or her status but converts are still given the title ben avraham avinu or bat Sarah Imanu.

There are a lot of Jewish people who had a Jewish father and a mother who converted to Judaism but because the Chief Rabbinite doesn't recognize all Orthodox conversions, usually they have to reconvert upon aliyah to Israel and have to assume Avraham Avinu or Sarah Imanu which treats a person as if they were never Jewish to begin with and reminds them of convert status. A convert is not supposed to be reminded that they converted.

For example, my mother did convert before I was born, converted Orthodox and my dad was born Jewish and a Cohen. He lost his Cohen status when he married my mother but I was still given a Hebrew name (Meir Ben Moshe). I would basically become Meir Ben Avraham Avinu if I went to Israel because the Chief Rabbinite would no longer recognize her conversion as valid since it was not done under their observation even though this was done by a recognized orthodox beth din.

[New Yorker]

If I understand correctly, when Israel was fighting for it's very existence, nobody was asking if those who were fighting the arabs and dieing for Israel were Orthodox, Consevative or otherwise.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If I understand correctly, when Israel was fighting for it's very existence, nobody was asking if those who were fighting the arabs and dieing for Israel were Orthodox, Consevative or otherwise.

And likewise, no one was expected to "accept" a phony conversion done by the non-Torah-observant reform or conservative which is not valid.   I'm not sure what your point is.   This does not mean a Jew who aligns with these movements has nothing of value to contribute to life.   It just means that conversions done by these heretical movements have no validity.   Very simple concept.

[New Yorker]

If I understand correctly, when Israel was fighting for it's very existence, nobody was asking if those who were fighting the arabs and dieing for Israel were Orthodox, Consevative or otherwise.

And likewise, no one was expected to "accept" a phony conversion done by the non-Torah-observant reform or conservative which is not valid.   I'm not sure what your point is.   This does not mean a Jew who aligns with these movements has nothing of value to contribute to life.   It just means that conversions done by these heretical movements have no validity.   Very simple concept.

My point is ALL JEWS have a right of return to Israel. Jews of ALL TYPES fought and died for the state of Israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If I understand correctly, when Israel was fighting for it's very existence, nobody was asking if those who were fighting the arabs and dieing for Israel were Orthodox, Consevative or otherwise.

And likewise, no one was expected to "accept" a phony conversion done by the non-Torah-observant reform or conservative which is not valid.   I'm not sure what your point is.   This does not mean a Jew who aligns with these movements has nothing of value to contribute to life.   It just means that conversions done by these heretical movements have no validity.   Very simple concept.

My point is ALL JEWS have a right of return to Israel. Jews of ALL TYPES fought and died for the state of Israel.

All JEWS, not all Jews AND non-Jews.

If a non-Jew "converts" by reform or conservative, they are still a non-Jew, as that is not a real conversion.

Just to be clear, that doesn't take anything away from a Jew who is born Jewish but chooses to associate with the phony movements.  Like I said all Jews have something to offer, even if they are attached to mistaken movements.   But we do not have to say that every non-Jew is a Jew now just because the mistaken movements decided to expand their membership by including patrilineal descent and welcoming non Jews into the synagogue.  Historically they included and encouraged non-Jewish spouses to come because this will increase expand their membership.   Facts are facts. 

Reform Jews also have a right to come to Israel, but not "reform" non-Jews.

[The One and Only Mo]

I really don't see what the big deal is. The Jews in Israel aren't exactly all that great anyways, and we all know about the Arabs. Most of the Jews in Israel live like goyim anyways, hate charedim, and couldn't care less about yidishkeit. I'd rather have pure goyim than self-hating Jews, because as we all know, self-hating Jews are THE worst cancer and filth known to mankind. They make all this big stink about this kind of conversion and that kind of conversion, but they don't give a rats @$$ that these self hating "Jews" are still harming the country with their left-wing, anti-kahanist, anti-torah values.
  On top of that, if they spend as much time trying to ban Muslims that they do trying to ban conservative conversion goyim from Israel, and if they started worshiping  Hashem as much as the Pusslims worship allah, we wouldn't have as many problems. The whole thing just makes me sick.  Either acknowledge what gives you the RIGHT to live in Israel, what gives you the privilege to be called a JEW, or go rape the Torah and defile Rav Kahanes values in some other country.

[Dr. Dan]

Point well taken. Instead of focusing so hard on who's a Jew, which is still a good thing, they should focus on getting rid of evil arabs and self haters

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I really don't see what the big deal is. The Jews in Israel aren't exactly all that great anyways, and we all know about the Arabs. Most of the Jews in Israel live like goyim anyways, hate charedim, and couldn't care less about yidishkeit. I'd rather have pure goyim than self-hating Jews, because as we all know, self-hating Jews are THE worst cancer and filth known to mankind. They make all this big stink about this kind of conversion and that kind of conversion, but they don't give a rats @$$ that these self hating "Jews" are still harming the country with their left-wing, anti-kahanist, anti-torah values.
  On top of that, if they spend as much time trying to ban Muslims that they do trying to ban conservative conversion goyim from Israel, and if they started worshiping  Hashem as much as the Pusslims worship allah, we wouldn't have as many problems. The whole thing just makes me sick.  Either acknowledge what gives you the RIGHT to live in Israel, what gives you the privilege to be called a JEW, or go rape the Torah and defile Rav Kahanes values in some other country.

Really Mo?

So how about the Black Hebros?  Are they 'valid converts' too?   

Afterall, they are simply another reformed/deformed "sect" aren't they?   If anyone and his brother and the local plumber can perform a conversion, then we might as well let in 2.5 million african blacks who are also "converted" by reform standards.   Reform doesn't even require members to be Jews.   It's absolutely ridiculous to consider their "converts" valid conversions and therefore Jews.   People who "convert" reform are simply not Jews.   That is a hard fact for some people to follow, but that is the reality.   Judaism has a legal system called the halacha.  That is what determines the rituals, the laws, the conversion, etc.   Reform has voluntarily placed itself outside the legal system.  It doesn't even pretend to adhere to it.  So why should anything they do be considered valid.

This is NOT about rejecting reform Jews or conservative Jews or any other types of real Jews who want to make aliyah.  This is about rejecting NON-JEWS who have done a phony conversion.   This is a story that goes back to the early history of the Jewish people.  The roots of the "Samaritans" are in a story of people who were by some accounts false converts.  ie the "Cutheans."

[The One and Only Mo]

I really don't see what the big deal is. The Jews in Israel aren't exactly all that great anyways, and we all know about the Arabs. Most of the Jews in Israel live like goyim anyways, hate charedim, and couldn't care less about yidishkeit. I'd rather have pure goyim than self-hating Jews, because as we all know, self-hating Jews are THE worst cancer and filth known to mankind. They make all this big stink about this kind of conversion and that kind of conversion, but they don't give a rats @$$ that these self hating "Jews" are still harming the country with their left-wing, anti-kahanist, anti-torah values.
  On top of that, if they spend as much time trying to ban Muslims that they do trying to ban conservative conversion goyim from Israel, and if they started worshiping  Hashem as much as the Pusslims worship allah, we wouldn't have as many problems. The whole thing just makes me sick.  Either acknowledge what gives you the RIGHT to live in Israel, what gives you the privilege to be called a JEW, or go rape the Torah and defile Rav Kahanes values in some other country.

Really Mo?

So how about the Black Hebros?  Are they 'valid converts' too?   

Afterall, they are simply another reformed/deformed "sect" aren't they?   If anyone and his brother and the local plumber can perform a conversion, then we might as well let in 2.5 million african blacks who are also "converted" by reform standards.   Reform doesn't even require members to be Jews.   It's absolutely ridiculous to consider their "converts" valid conversions and therefore Jews.   People who "convert" reform are simply not Jews.   That is a hard fact for some people to follow, but that is the reality.   Judaism has a legal system called the halacha.  That is what determines the rituals, the laws, the conversion, etc.   Reform has voluntarily placed itself outside the legal system.  It doesn't even pretend to adhere to it.  So why should anything they do be considered valid.

This is NOT about rejecting reform Jews or conservative Jews or any other types of real Jews who want to make aliyah.  This is about rejecting NON-JEWS who have done a phony conversion.   This is a story that goes back to the early history of the Jewish people.  The roots of the "Samaritans" are in a story of people who were by some accounts false converts.  ie the "Cutheans."

I'm well aware of the halacha, and I fully support the decision. Those aren't Jews. But that doesn't take away from the fact everybody just overlooks the self-hating Jews as well. Maybe you misunderstood, but Dr. Dan summed up my post very accurately.