Matisyahu Fiasco

[muman613]

No one (who shaves) is ignoring a negative commandment!   Read the language carefully.  The verb used is not merely "shave"  - it's a strong connotation which the rabbis interpret as use of straight razor which cuts all the way down deep.   electrics don't go that deep.   It's much more complicated halachically but that's basically one way of boiling it all down.    Rabbi Bar Hayim actually does not permit shaving with any kind of razor.  Rav Moshe Feinstein explained a way to permit the electric razor, but he apparently does not accept his explanation of how that fits with the halacha.   I know another rabbi who has a different way of permitting an electric razor that he feels is halachically sound but actually is a different opinion than Rav Moshe's and gives a different reasoning.     I haven't studied this issue in depth and therefore cannot explain what the intricate details of any of the positions are.   For me, the jury's still out on this issue, until I actually learn it in detail.  But suffice to say that NO ONE IS JUST IGNORING NEGATIVE COMMANDMENTS!   That is clearly not allowed by halacha according to any opinion.

You are mistaken if you are assuming that people who shave are not following the commandment and people who don't shave, follow it.   Like every commandment it has details which explain how it works and what the parameters are.   The Oral Torah gives us these parameters and the poskim use these definitions to explain different cases.   It's like you are telling me "The Torah says pick a beautiful fruit, so I grabbed a nice looking orange, I'm following the commandment"  - no that is only a certain fruit and we know which fruit from the Oral Torah.   Similarly, shaving is only forbidden when done in a certain manner.

Ok... I am not trying to suggest they are... I just would be interested in the relevant opinions from the sages and the poskim.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

He is clearly having a faith crisis, if not a complete break to secularism. A frum Jew would know not to even make the appearance of losing his faith.

His next tweet was about going to the mikveh and to shul that morning to daven, though.   I don't think he is giving that impression at all.   It's the "frum police" who are overreacting to something that isn't there.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Wow, I didn't want you guys to get into a fight over this. It was just a question. I just wanted to know if Jewish men, categorically, are required to keep beards or the lengthened sideburns. I notice a whole lot of frum Jews do and that they believe they are required to but then again Chaim doesn't ever and he is as devout as they come also. I have read before that Jews are permitted to shave with electric shavers but a lot of Jews think that they aren't even allowed.

I have a few questions for you KWRBT:

1--Can you explain what exactly is the "pagan way" of cutting a beard?
2--Is it a sin for Gentiles to shave the "pagan" way?
3--Are Jewish girls/women required to wear dresses? I think it is very lovely and classy and definitely that it sets them apart from the Gentile world but is it a requirement, an option, or something that is encouraged but not explicitly mandated? Debbie Schlussel is very frum but I don't think she wears a dress.

[muman613]

Here is an article I found which discusses this issue:

http://www.vbm-torah.org/halakha/electric-razor.htm

HALAKHA
"Shaving with an Electric Razor"
by Rav Shabtai Rappaport

Translated and adapted by Rav Eliezer Kwass

 

INTRODUCTION

The Torah (Vayikra 19:27) prohibits "destroying the corners" of one's beard. The word "destroying" (hashchata) is explained in the Oral Law as referring to shaving down to the skin with a razor blade. Before modern times, a Jew who wanted to follow the halakha but did not want a beard would either have to remove his facial hair with (sometimes painful) cream or try his best to get a close shave using scissors (which is permitted according to many authorities, though some forbid it - see below).

The invention of the modern electric shaver challenges the halakhist to clarify the distinction between the prohibited razor shave and the permitted scissors shave. A group of modern poskim were presented with this question and many prohibited the use of electric shavers to achieve a close shave. Others permit its use, and among some segments of the observant community shaving with an electric razor is common practice.

The following article is an attempt to clarify the distinction between shaving with a razor and shaving with scissors and to then apply it to some of the electric shavers on the market in the mid 1980s. [One would obviously have to re-examine shavers in today's market.] It does not include a summary of responsa literature on the topic.

Several years ago the first section of an article of mine about shaving with an electric razor appeared in Daf Kesher (#66, Cheshvan 5747, vol. 1, pp. 261-265). That article dealt with the difference between shaving with a razor blade ("ta'ar"), which is biblically prohibited (Vayikra 19:27), and shaving with scissors ("misparayim ke-ein ta'ar"), which many poskim, among them the Shulchan Arukh and Rama (YD 181:10), permit.

We came to two conclusions:

1. The reason for the permissibility of scissors is not that it cannot achieve the RESULTS that a razor blade can, but because the shaving PROCESS involved is different. Even if someone would invent a pair of scissors that could shave as close as a razor, it would still be permitted to shave with it. According to the poskim - (especially the Maharshal in Yam Shel Shlomo Yevamot 12:17) - the process of cutting one's beard with a scissors is by definition excluded from the prohibition.

The Talmud derives from one phrase that the biblical prohibition against shaving one's beard does not apply to plucking it out, and from another it learns that the prohibition does not apply to using scissors. If shaving the beard with scissors is permitted only because it is an abnormal method, why the need for a second derivation? Apparently, we reasoned, PLUCKING is abnormal and using SCISSORS, though a normal enough method for shaving, is a different process than that of using a razor and is permitted for that reason.

2. The prohibition of shaving the corners of one's beard differs from the prohibition of a man removing hair in a feminine way, which is one aspect of the injunction, "lo yilbash" "A man should not wear a woman's clothes" (Devarim 22:5). Scissors are excluded from both prohibitions, but for different reasons. The removal of a man's hair in a way of "lo yilbash" would be permitted with scissors, because it is irregular for a woman to remove bodily hair with scissors; for a man to use scissors to remove his beard is normal, but it is permitted because it does not involve destroying the beard ("hashchata").

Because a woman is interested in totally removing hair for beauty, she usually uses a razor. Therefore, even though there not be a recognizable difference between a razor and scissors, only a razor is biblically prohibited. But because scissors can achieve similar results it is prohibited by a rabbinic decree.

We closed that article with the following unkept promise: "What remains to be explained is what, ultimately, is the difference between shaving with a razor ("ta'ar") and shaving with scissors ("misparayim ke-ein ta'ar"). Though there is not necessarily a difference between the RESULTS achieved by the two, the PROCESS involved differs, and one who wants to remove hair completely usually uses a razor. In a subsequent article we will clarify this and its ramifications for the issue of shaving with electric razors."

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[muman613]

Wow, I didn't want you guys to get into a fight over this. It was just a question. I just wanted to know if Jewish men, categorically, are required to keep beards or the lengthened sideburns. I notice a whole lot of frum Jews do and that they believe they are required to but then again Chaim doesn't ever and he is as devout as they come also. I have read before that Jews are permitted to shave with electric shavers but a lot of Jews think that they aren't even allowed.

I have a few questions for you KWRBT:

1--Can you explain what exactly is the "pagan way" of cutting a beard?
2--Is it a sin for Gentiles to shave the "pagan" way?
3--Are Jewish girls/women required to wear dresses? I think it is very lovely and classy and definitely that it sets them apart from the Gentile world but is it a requirement, an option, or something that is encouraged but not explicitly mandated? Debbie Schlussel is very frum but I don't think she wears a dress.

The commandments were given to the Jews. We have 613 commandments while the nations have 7 commandments. The issue of shaving is not relevant to non-Jews...

My answer regarding womens dress is one word.... Tzniut.... It is modest dress... A woman should dress modestly with her knees covered. This is the definition of Tznuit.

http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=11069

http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class14.html

TSNIUT: THE PRINCIPLE OF INTERNALITY

The Judaic response to human nature's tendency toward superficiality is a set of laws that are categorized under the heading of "tzniut." The actual definition of tzniut is the practical commitment not to allow oneself to be moved into superficial or external definitions of self or others. The result of tzniut is to make room for an inner, and therefore more total, vision to emerge. (Since the closest, though inaccurate, English definition of tzniut is "modesty," a word with negative vibes in much of today's society, we will continue to use the Hebrew term with its positive connotations.)

Tzniut is a consciousness that the Torah demands both men and women to develop, because it is a prerequisite to possessing a spiritual worldview. Men in Jewish religious society have generally taken it upon themselves to uphold a standard of dress that rivals and sometimes even surpasses that of traditional women. Many men avoid wearing short sleeves and wear shorts, if they do at all, only for sports...

So why is tzniut emphasized more for women than for men? The answer is twofold. Primarily, women are acknowledged to be more inherently gifted in tzniut and are therefore more strongly encouraged to achieve in this area of spiritual endeavor. There is also the recognition that men's greater propensity to objectify the opposite sex tends to lead to women's suffering from self-definition based on externalities. For both of these reasons, Judaism directs more specific tzniut legislation at women.
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[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I understand that but aren't there many things that aren't explicitly part of the 7NL that are nonetheless considered to be covered by them? Like, for instance, the belief that it's a sin for Gentiles to have a pet spayed/neutered.

[muman613]

I understand that but aren't there many things that aren't explicitly part of the 7NL that are nonetheless considered to be covered by them? Like, for instance, the belief that it's a sin for Gentiles to have a pet spayed/neutered.

Yes, you are correct that the 7 laws are categories of laws... But I am not aware which of the seven shaving would come under. You are concerned whether it is 'idolatrous practice'? I am not sure...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So where does the belief that it is wrong to have a pet spayed fall under in the 7 laws?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have a few questions for you KWRBT:

1--Can you explain what exactly is the "pagan way" of cutting a beard?
2--Is it a sin for Gentiles to shave the "pagan" way?
3--Are Jewish girls/women required to wear dresses? I think it is very lovely and classy and definitely that it sets them apart from the Gentile world but is it a requirement, an option, or something that is encouraged but not explicitly mandated? Debbie Schlussel is very frum but I don't think she wears a dress.

I never said "pagan way," so I'm not sure what you mean.

The commandment against shaving the beard with a razor is only for Jews.  It's not an ethical law and not contained within the noahide commandments.  

On dresses, its part of the code of modesty for Jewish women, they have to wear skirts or dresses, but not pants because pants are considered specifically a man's clothing.  According to the Jewish law, men cannot wear the garb of women, and vice versa.  On that, everyone agrees.  And that is about keeping the men as men and women as women, and in general not trying to adopt other roles for ourselves than what we were given.  
Where opinions differ is on whether pants are truly a man's garment, especially in todays day and age where the fashion became for women to wear pants also, for one thing, and for another, that jeans and other pants are designed specially for women or men's figures and you have separate womens and mens pants with completely different construction.  So, culturally, you will see some of the modern orthodox are more lenient with this particular thing and sometimes wear pants - for that basic reason I mentioned.  But for the most part, most of the Orthodox women wear a skirt or dress.

As an easy example - for a man to wear a dress would be forbidden.  A dress is clearly a woman's garment, so a man cannot put it on himself.  Everyone agrees to that.   

[muman613]

So where does the belief that it is wrong to have a pet spayed fall under in the 7 laws?

I thought you knew... I was not the one who said it was...

Here are the seven according to Chabad:

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/541,2173388/What-are-the-actual-Seven-Noahide-Laws.html

Judaism teaches about a Divine Mandate known as the Seven Noahide Laws, which are G-d's universal laws for all mankind as taught to Moses and recorded in the Torah.1 They are:  

1. No idolatry - Prohibits the worship of any human or any created thing. Also prohibited is the making of idols and involvement with the occult. This necessitates an understanding of the One G-d and His nature.

2. No blasphemy - Prohibits a curse directed at the Supreme Being.

3. No homicide - Prohibits murder and suicide. Causing injury is also forbidden.

4. No theft - Prohibits the wrongful taking of another's goods.

5. No illicit intercourse - Prohibits adultery, incest, homosexual intercourse and bestiality, according to Torah definitions.

6. Don't eat a limb of a living creature - Promotes the kind treatment of animal life. It also encourages an appreciation for all kinds of life and respect for nature as G-d's creation.

7. Carry out justice - An imperative to pursue and enforce social justice, and a prohibition of any miscarriage of justice.

http://www.jewishideas.org/angel-shabbat/noahide-laws-thoughts-parashat-noah-october-9-

Rabbinic tradition teaches that Noah and his descendants were given seven basic categories of law, and that "Noahides"  fulfill their religious obligations through these Noahide laws. The Talmud (Yevamot 47a) states: "Our sages have said that seven commandments have been prescribed for the Sons of Noah: the first requires them to have judges; the other six forbid sacrilege, idolatry, incest, homicide, theft, and the consumption of a limb taken from a living animal."

The great 19th century thinker, Rabbi Eliyahu Benamozegh, pointed out that the Noahide laws represent an important part of Jewish teaching. While Jews are obligated to observe all the commandments of the Torah due to their covenant with God, all non-Jewish human beings are bound by a divine covenant through the specific commandments given to them as Noahides. Thus, Judaism is a religion that maintains both a specific message to Jews, and a universal message for all humankind.

[muman613]

I never said "pagan way," so I'm not sure what you mean.

I think he was talking about the commandment which says not to cut like the 'idolatrous priests'.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/940319/jewish/Negative-Commandment-43.htm

The 43rd prohibition is that we are forbidden from shaving1 the temples of our heads.

The source of this commandment is G‑d's statement (exalted be He),2 "Do not round off the corners of your head."

This prohibition also3 has the goal of preventing us from emulating idol worshippers, since it was the practice of idol worshippers to shave only the sides [of their heads]. For this reason the Sages had to explain in Tractate Yevamos4 that, "Shaving the entire head is also included in the prohibition of 'rounding,'" so that you should not say that the actual prohibition is shaving the temples and leaving the rest of the hair, as the idolatrous priests do; but if you shave the entire head, you are not emulating them. The Sages therefore informed us that it is prohibited to shave the temples in any manner — not by themselves and not with the rest of the head.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Oh, and on the sideburns.   The basic requirement is like a centimeter or whatever, you just cannot shave it completely off.  There has to be enough hair there at the "corners" to grasp with the finger tips.   It's a very small amount in the halachic parameters.   So any basic haircut that doesn't shave it off entirely will suffice.   When the chassidic movement developed, one of the things they took on as a beautification of this mitzvah was to let the sideburns grow out long and flowing (and to style them to I guess).    The chassidic movement made many innovations to beautify the mitzvahs and put vitality and energy into the observance.  This was but one example.   IOW as a summation of their approach - "the commandment says don't shave the corners of your head, so we will not only "not shave" we will also let it grow out and be long and never even cut it at all, let alone shave it"

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I know what the seven laws are, I was asking where the thing about not spaying an animal falls into them.

[muman613]

Oh, and on the sideburns.   The basic requirement is like a centimeter or whatever, you just cannot shave it completely off.  There has to be enough hair there at the "corners" to grasp with the finger tips.   It's a very small amount in the halachic parameters.   So any basic haircut that doesn't shave it off entirely will suffice.   When the chassidic movement developed, one of the things they took on as a beautification of this mitzvah was to let the sideburns grow out long and flowing (and to style them to I guess).    The chassidic movement made many innovations to beautify the mitzvahs and put vitality and energy into the observance.  This was but one example.   IOW as a summation of their approach - "the commandment says don't shave the corners of your head, so we will not only "not shave" we will also let it grow out and be long and never even cut it at all, let alone shave it"

Yes, it is interesting that the Yemeni Jews also allowed their peyot to grow... I also believe that it is done to make the Jew different from the non-Jew...

[muman613]

I know what the seven laws are, I was asking where the thing about not spaying an animal falls into them.

Thats the thing... I don't know that it falls under any of the seven. Where did you learn it was not permitted for a non-Jew to spay/neuter?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I never said "pagan way," so I'm not sure what you mean.

I didn't specifically say you said it. I was referring to this, the "idolatrous priests": http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,58832.msg529090.html#msg529090

The commandment against shaving the beard with a razor is only for Jews.

 
So, do we know if Matisyahu shaved the forbidden way, with a razor, or if he used an electric shaver?

On dresses, its part of the code of modesty for Jewish women, they have to wear skirts or dresses, but not pants because pants are considered specifically a man's clothing.  According to the Jewish law, men cannot wear the garb of women, and vice versa.  On that, everyone agrees.  And that is about keeping the men as men and women as women, and in general not trying to adopt other roles for ourselves than what we were given.  
Where opinions differ is on whether pants are truly a man's garment, especially in todays day and age where the fashion became for women to wear pants also, for one thing, and for another, that jeans and other pants are designed specially for women or men's figures and you have separate womens and mens pants with completely different construction.  So, culturally, you will see some of the modern orthodox are more lenient with this particular thing and sometimes wear pants - for that basic reason I mentioned.  But for the most part, most of the Orthodox women wear a skirt or dress.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought it was primarily about modesty and not cross-dressing. Of course I remember that the Bible forbids cross-dressing in Leviticus (Christians abide by this too). I don't think that in Western society that pants or jeans count as man's clothing at this time, but obviously a dress is still very much women's clothing.

Here's a twist I just thought of: what does Judaism say about goth dress which often involves men wearing makeup? Is this considered cross-dressing or is it something else entirely? Or is the goth style simply considered idolatrous?

As an easy example - for a man to wear a dress would be forbidden.  A dress is clearly a woman's garment, so a man cannot put it on himself.  Everyone agrees to that.   

Of course.


So, does anybody have a definitive interpretation of that cryptic paragraph given by Matisyahu or any guesses?

[muman613]

I will wait to hear from the 'grapevine' of people who I know who say they know him... I'm sure Ill hear about it one of these Shabbats...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thats the thing... I don't know that it falls under any of the seven. Where did you learn it was not permitted for a non-Jew to spay/neuter?

Tag Machir-Tzedek said so

[muman613]

Here he is being interviewed on this topic...





I don't agree with him on some points...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Thanks for the link.

In my opinion he is deliberately vague and doesn't say much. What he does say can be taken either way, i.e. that he has turned his back on his faith or that it is merely evolving.

[Daniel Michael ben Avraham]

Meh, the Jews that are freaking out about this are all of the Chassidim.  I think they might feel like they lost their mascot or something.  It always feels good to be able to identify with some big celebrity.  In truth the Jewish way is the path beyond the cult of personality.  In my opinion many Chassidim, especially Chabad, have a big problem moving beyond the personality.

Now, take into account that I am a Spanish and Portuguese Jew, so from a philosophical perspective I am probably as polar opposite as you can get from a Chassidic Ashkenazic type.  Given that, it seems to me that what he did is probably proof that he is growing, becoming more observant, and more aware of what it is to be a Torah observant Jew.

I am sure he did not do this without thought, as his statement comes with consequences from the Chabad community which has supported him so much in the past.  It would not surprise me if he now feels a bit shunned by Chassidim and Chabad in particular.  I am sure to them what he did was a very public statement of rejection of their way of life and their philosophy of what it means to be a Jew.

I wish him the best.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

How do you deal with Negative Commandment 44 according to Rambams list of Mitzvot? Also where does it say that only married men are commanded not to cut the corners of the beard?

43  Not to shave the corners of the head like idolatrous priests, as it is written "ye shall not round the corners of your heads" (Leviticus 19,27).

44  Not to remove the whole beard like the idolaters, as it is written "neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard" (Leviticus 19,27).

  Did II saw only married men? I was responding to someone else stating that married men, etc..... which I do not agree with.
 Read the Rambam clearly and slowly, its like the idolaters, etc. Also their are many other poskim on this as well. And I do not and do not say to shave however one likes. Their are clear ways according to Halacha to shave. One needs to either give their shaver to a Rabbi who knows these Halachot or to even a trust worthy religious Jew who knows what to do to the shaver (that is what I did, and it became "kosher" in the sense that it is in compliance with halacha). Besides that their are people who state not to shave at all. BUT their source isn't from Halacha but from "Kabbalah". And we are not Kabbalists, soo these things do not apply to us. But this is also why you see that many Hassidim do not shave. As opposed to many normal Orthodox who do.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag Machir-Tzedek said so

 Honestly I said it seems soo according to that response. I was not and am not stating that as a fact. I said if you are interested you (or one) needs to ask that Rav (Rav Bar Haim)  who said that Jews or non-Jews or animals are not allowed to be neutered. Not sure if that means that if you (as a non-Jew) can or cannot according to the laws of the Torah do soo or not.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Great for him. Being shaven is not according to the law. It is according to Kabbalists and Hassidim which is not the letter of the law. As long as Matisyahu or any Jew is keeping the laws (Halachot) it is all the same in G-D's eyes. He is an individual and he decides what he should or should not do. And how he wants to look or not.

 - Also Muman that video you posted does not say or portray anything of him leaving the religion or anything like that. I think people are just reading into things for no apparent reason. He also has a Yamulka on his head. Soo people should relax.

[muman613]

Great for him. Being shaven is not according to the law. It is according to Kabbalists and Hassidim which is not the letter of the law. As long as Matisyahu or any Jew is keeping the laws (Halachot) it is all the same in G-D's eyes. He is an individual and he decides what he should or should not do. And how he wants to look or not.

 - Also Muman that video you posted does not say or portray anything of him leaving the religion or anything like that. I think people are just reading into things for no apparent reason. He also has a Yamulka on his head. Soo people should relax.

I have been relaxed about this... My initial response when I first heard about it was that it was his decision, and we will see what effect it has on his observance.