To Chaim and the forum.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I heard from a couple of people Lutheranism is a dangerous cult.

I don't know if Lutheranism is a sociological cult in terms of the psychological control/manipulation and isolationism that is practiced by Satmar and others, but it certainly always has and always will preach Nazi Jew-hatred in one form or another. Perhaps the Lutheran Church doesn't overtly attack all Jews today like it did throughout most of its history (though it certainly still thinks it), but it does support the Arab Nazis and denies the right of tiny Israel to survive.

Do recall that half of the German Nazis, and a great many of their allies such as the Baltic and Scandinavian nations, were Lutherans. In fact, Latvia was more fanatically into the Holocaust than many of the Germans themselves.

If any Christian that is not an anti-Semite is a member of this satanic church, they should leave it immediately.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I thought it was 95 Theses.

[syyuge]

Now at least I know that who was and were the great grandfathers of the nazi ideology or what ever it can be called.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Martin Luther (ysv) didn't invent German anti-Semitism, but he sure perfected it.

[t_h_j]

But a whole lot of modern-day Lutherans are Nazi anti-Semites and the church does still teach it:

http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/08/16/paper-at-christ-at-the-checkpoint-2010-netanyahu-has-no-jewish-blood/
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Global-Mission/Where-We-Work/Europe-Middle-East.aspx
http://www.elcjhl.org/
http://witness.lcms.org/pages/wPage.asp?ContentID=468&IssueID=30

You're quoting arab Christians living near israel? That's your source?

[t_h_j]

I don't know if Lutheranism is a sociological cult in terms of the psychological control/manipulation and isolationism that is practiced by Satmar and others, but it certainly always has and always will preach Nazi Jew-hatred in one form or another. Perhaps the Lutheran Church doesn't overtly attack all Jews today like it did throughout most of its history (though it certainly still thinks it), but it does support the Arab Nazis and denies the right of tiny Israel to survive.

Do recall that half of the German Nazis, and a great many of their allies such as the Baltic and Scandinavian nations, were Lutherans. In fact, Latvia was more fanatically into the Holocaust than many of the Germans themselves.

If any Christian that is not an anti-Semite is a member of this satanic church, they should leave it immediately.

Ignorance truly is bliss for some.

[t_h_j]

Almost entire Scandinavia embraced ML's ideas from the start, I don't know what is the number of Lutherans nowdays. His ideas and thesis were questionable, 41 from 95 were condemned. For a reason...

Because they were against the Catholic church. Wiki Protestant Reformation if you are interested in the history.

[t_h_j]

So at the end all 95 were condemned?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses

[muman613]

Needless to say Lutheranism contributed greatly to the atmosphere of Jew hate which clouded the minds of Europe during the last century...

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Almost entire Scandinavia embraced ML's ideas from the start, I don't know what is the number of Lutherans nowdays. His ideas and thesis were questionable, 41 from 95 were condemned. For a reason...

I don't know how many of the 95 were condemned. Actually traditional Lutheranism is very similar to Catholicism even to this very day. He wasn't really trying to start a new religion, he just had some administrative differences with the RCC hierarchy here and there. In any event I don't really care about these matters--the fact is that he was a satanic Jew-hater who did much to inspire Hitler and Nazism.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't care what people think, but ML was a creep

You can say that again. So was the Satmar "rabbi". That was why I was comparing the two.

[Every Jew AK47]

I don't have much time to respond, but let me say this..  The modern-day Lutheran church is one of the most Anti-Israel (and may I say Anti-Semitic) churches in the world today.  They are the most devout followers of Replacement Theology which was an important part of Martin Luther's ideology.   I have many Christian friends and I respect Christians greatly.  Maybe, some will think I am crazy, but I actually respected the previous Pope John Paul, as well I respect pastors like John Hagee and other evangelicals who support Israel.  I grew up around Christians and I learned the churches that were pro-Israel and anti-Israel and a lot of it had to do with their denomination, although there was a few churches that had their own individual views that diverted from their denomination. 

I will say I have no Lutheran friends.  I've called many churces in the past to learn about their ideologies and views of Jewish people and Israel.  Most Lutheran priests I have talked to have expressed vehemently anti-Israel views and have more respect for Palestinians/Arabs.  Is this to say they are all like that?   No.  I have met a few Lutherans who actually support Israel.  However, the consensus is very cut and dry, a majority of Lutherans do follow Luther's theology and have knowledge of Luther's deep hatred of Jewish people.   Most Lutherans do believe that JEws are the murderers of their god.   

I am sad to say that.  IF anyone doesn't believe me I encourage you to call the various Lutheran churches and talk to a pastor/priest and many times you will get them on the phone and they will explain their beliefs.    If anyone has experience dealing with these people, it is me.  I also did humanitarian work with churches in the past and got to know people in Christain communities. 


Yes, I will say this, Martin Luther , is probably the worst Jew hater on the Earth, next to Satan himself.    Martin LUther is the father of the Holocaust.  His writings are open for all to see.  He claimed we JEws are the sons of pigs and devils and that we are the scum of the Earth.  He called on his followers to burn all the synagogues, which they did, leaving very few, if any, synagogues left standing in Germany during his reign of power.  Between Luther and Wagner, these two men helped shaped Hitler's ideologies, as well as the German/Austrian populace, more than any other people in history.   Many people mistake Hitler's beliefs in Nordic mythology as the source of his Jew-hatred. TOTALLY FALSE!  Nordic mythology actually had very bigotry associated with it.  The pagan Nordic religions actually were much more tolerant and had some noble aspects (if I am allowed to even say that).  However, Hitler morphed his twisted view of Lutheranism and mixed it with Nordic and Hindu theology.  The Swastika is actually a peace symbol, which Hitler also decided to mutate into his warped view of Aryan purity. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't have much time to respond, but let me say this..  The modern-day Lutheran church is one of the most Anti-Israel (and may I say Anti-Semitic) churches in the world today.  They are the most devout followers of Replacement Theology which was an important part of Martin Luther's ideology.   I have many Christian friends and I respect Christians greatly.  Maybe, some will think I am crazy, but I actually respected the previous Pope John Paul, as well I respect pastors like John Hagee and other evangelicals who support Israel.  I grew up around Christians and I learned the churches that were pro-Israel and anti-Israel and a lot of it had to do with their denomination, although there was a few churches that had their own individual views that diverted from their denomination. 

I will say I have no Lutheran friends.  I've called many churces in the past to learn about their ideologies and views of Jewish people and Israel.  Most Lutheran priests I have talked to have expressed vehemently anti-Israel views and have more respect for Palestinians/Arabs.  Is this to say they are all like that?   No.  I have met a few Lutherans who actually support Israel.  However, the consensus is very cut and dry, a majority of Lutherans do follow Luther's theology and have knowledge of Luther's deep hatred of Jewish people.   Most Lutherans do believe that JEws are the murderers of their god.   

I am sad to say that.  IF anyone doesn't believe me I encourage you to call the various Lutheran churches and talk to a pastor/priest and many times you will get them on the phone and they will explain their beliefs.    If anyone has experience dealing with these people, it is me.  I also did humanitarian work with churches in the past and got to know people in Christain communities. 


Yes, I will say this, Martin Luther , is probably the worst Jew hater on the Earth, next to Satan himself.    Martin LUther is the father of the Holocaust.  His writings are open for all to see.  He claimed we JEws are the sons of pigs and devils and that we are the scum of the Earth.  He called on his followers to burn all the synagogues, which they did, leaving very few, if any, synagogues left standing in Germany during his reign of power.  Between Luther and Wagner, these two men helped shaped Hitler's ideologies, as well as the German/Austrian populace, more than any other people in history.   Many people mistake Hitler's beliefs in Nordic mythology as the source of his Jew-hatred. TOTALLY FALSE!  Nordic mythology actually had very bigotry associated with it.  The pagan Nordic religions actually were much more tolerant and had some noble aspects (if I am allowed to even say that).  However, Hitler morphed his twisted view of Lutheranism and mixed it with Nordic and Hindu theology.  The Swastika is actually a peace symbol, which Hitler also decided to mutate into his warped view of Aryan purity.

I know. I gave Muman a bunch of links as to how modern Lutheranism is still Nazi to the core. Did you see them?

[Every Jew AK47]

No, but I probably should take a look..   Thank you.

[briann]

I don't have much time to respond, but let me say this..  The modern-day Lutheran church is one of the most Anti-Israel (and may I say Anti-Semitic) churches in the world today.  They are the most devout followers of Replacement Theology which was an important part of Martin Luther's ideology.   I have many Christian friends and I respect Christians greatly.  Maybe, some will think I am crazy, but I actually respected the previous Pope John Paul, as well I respect pastors like John Hagee and other evangelicals who support Israel.  I grew up around Christians and I learned the churches that were pro-Israel and anti-Israel and a lot of it had to do with their denomination, although there was a few churches that had their own individual views that diverted from their denomination. 

I will say I have no Lutheran friends.  I've called many churces in the past to learn about their ideologies and views of Jewish people and Israel.  Most Lutheran priests I have talked to have expressed vehemently anti-Israel views and have more respect for Palestinians/Arabs.  Is this to say they are all like that?   No.  I have met a few Lutherans who actually support Israel.  However, the consensus is very cut and dry, a majority of Lutherans do follow Luther's theology and have knowledge of Luther's deep hatred of Jewish people.   Most Lutherans do believe that JEws are the murderers of their god.   

I am sad to say that.  IF anyone doesn't believe me I encourage you to call the various Lutheran churches and talk to a pastor/priest and many times you will get them on the phone and they will explain their beliefs.    If anyone has experience dealing with these people, it is me.  I also did humanitarian work with churches in the past and got to know people in Christain communities. 


Yes, I will say this, Martin Luther , is probably the worst Jew hater on the Earth, next to Satan himself.    Martin LUther is the father of the Holocaust.  His writings are open for all to see.  He claimed we JEws are the sons of pigs and devils and that we are the scum of the Earth.  He called on his followers to burn all the synagogues, which they did, leaving very few, if any, synagogues left standing in Germany during his reign of power.  Between Luther and Wagner, these two men helped shaped Hitler's ideologies, as well as the German/Austrian populace, more than any other people in history.   Many people mistake Hitler's beliefs in Nordic mythology as the source of his Jew-hatred. TOTALLY FALSE!  Nordic mythology actually had very bigotry associated with it.  The pagan Nordic religions actually were much more tolerant and had some noble aspects (if I am allowed to even say that).  However, Hitler morphed his twisted view of Lutheranism and mixed it with Nordic and Hindu theology.  The Swastika is actually a peace symbol, which Hitler also decided to mutate into his warped view of Aryan purity.

While paganism may have had a benign ideology at its core.... the majority of the Nazi founders wanted to revert to paganism for evil reasons.... and I am sure they would have corrupted it like they did everything else... including Tibetan mysticism

The Nazi founders and those with the most control did NOT want to adopt any form of Christianity... Their goal was always to replace it.... but of course they were willing to court the Church's that were more antisemitic to help achieve their goals...

[The One and Only Mo]

OK, from the view of an outsider, I can see where DBF is coming from. He sees all of these stories about the rape etc. and that it probably all he sees regarding Satmar. For a very, very long time, I thought certain horrible things about other religions that I learned were just not true. While I can assure you, DBF, that yes, there are bad Satmar chassidim, there are also really awesome ones. Corruption exists everywhere. I wish I can take you to see the good parts of Judaism, I really do, and I don't blame you for thinking the way you do because that's the majority of what you are exposed to. I am no different. I have made several discussing conclusions in the past about other religions. Why? Because I was ignorant. Ignorance isn't a bad thing. So while I'm not defending the things that he says that might infuriate other Jews, I know that his intentions are not pure evil. So I might get some flack from my fellow Jews for defending him, but if he really knew Judaism the way we do, he wouldn't have such thoughts. We are all JTFers and we have to teach him. We are here to learn. If TAG left because of DBF, I feel bad that TAG isn't able to see that DBF just needs some education on the matter. If I told you some of the things I believed growing up, you'd think I was stoned our of my skull or just had idiot parents.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

OK, from the view of an outsider, I can see where DBF is coming from. He sees all of these stories about the rape etc. and that it probably all he sees regarding Satmar. For a very, very long time, I thought certain horrible things about other religions that I learned were just not true. While I can assure you, DBF, that yes, there are bad Satmar chassidim, there are also really awesome ones. Corruption exists everywhere. I wish I can take you to see the good parts of Judaism, I really do, and I don't blame you for thinking the way you do because that's the majority of what you are exposed to. I am no different. I have made several discussing conclusions in the past about other religions. Why? Because I was ignorant. Ignorance isn't a bad thing. So while I'm not defending the things that he says that might infuriate other Jews, I know that his intentions are not pure evil. So I might get some flack from my fellow Jews for defending him, but if he really knew Judaism the way we do, he wouldn't have such thoughts. We are all JTFers and we have to teach him. We are here to learn. If TAG left because of DBF, I feel bad that TAG isn't able to see that DBF just needs some education on the matter. If I told you some of the things I believed growing up, you'd think I was stoned our of my skull or just had idiot parents.

Thanks for trying to clear things up, Mo.

Chaim said that I used excessively harsh language and so I have tried to tone it down. Satmarism as a sect is evil, but there are some members of it that are not. There are also a whole lot of innocent girls in it that have no way out. Of course I have nothing against them. I hope that they find the ability to get out of it and find a branch of real Torah Judaism like Chabad. The same goes to Lutheran individuals that are not personally anti-Semitic.

[The One and Only Mo]

I read all the things DBF said, and you can tell that he just doesn't know a lot about Judaism. And that's OK. I take no offense by anything he said because you can see that he just needs to be taught. If, on the other hand, he was truly knowledgeable about it (and you'd be able to tell), then yeah, it would royally suck, but I implore you to see this how I see it: DBF just needs us to teach him.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I read all the things DBF said, and you can tell that he just doesn't know a lot about Judaism. And that's OK. I take no offense by anything he said because you can see that he just needs to be taught. If, on the other hand, he was truly knowledgeable about it (and you'd be able to tell), then yeah, it would royally suck, but I implore you to see this how I see it: DBF just needs us to teach him.

I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I just go by what Chaim states and teaches. Not every single Satmar or Lutheran is bad, but the religions are. They should leave them.

[The One and Only Mo]

Thanks for trying to clear things up, Mo.

Chaim said that I used excessively harsh language and so I have tried to tone it down. Satmarism as a sect is evil, but there are some members of it that are not. There are also a whole lot of innocent girls in it that have no way out. Of course I have nothing against them. I hope that they find the ability to get out of it and find a branch of real Torah Judaism like Chabad. The same goes to Lutheran individuals that are not personally anti-Semitic.

Satmarism is NOT evil. Some of their values are definitely not what WE believe in, and some of their members commit heinous crimes against the Torah and Law. However, unless somebody is a frum Jew like I am, the odds are that their beliefs are NOT what I believe in. I urge you to understand that though they may express certain things that other Jews don't believe in, most of the world expresses things that we don't believe in. There aren't as many pedophiles per-capita as you think there are. I know it seems that way, but you and I both know how the media can be.

[The One and Only Mo]

I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I just go by what Chaim states and teaches. Not every single Satmar or Lutheran is bad, but the religions are. They should leave them.

I can see why you'd say that based on the evil that is out there, but trust me when I tell you that there are a lot of good ones too who do a lot of good.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Satmarism is NOT evil. Some of their values are definitely not what WE believe in, and some of their members commit heinous crimes against the Torah and Law. However, unless somebody is a frum Jew like I am, the odds are that their beliefs are NOT what I believe in. I urge you to understand that though they may express certain things that other Jews don't believe in, most of the world expresses things that we don't believe in. There aren't as many pedophiles per-capita as you think there are. I know it seems that way, but you and I both know how the media can be.

I don't think Chasidim have a higher rate of pedophilia than is the average--never said that. All of my comments were specific to Satmar. If you read the facts of that case, it is clear that the Satmar establishment supported that pedophile Weberman, raised money for his legal defense, and attempted to intimidate the victim. They behaved exactly like certain churches that go out of their way to sweep pedophile priests/pastors under the rug and deny their victims justice.

[The One and Only Mo]

You're going to have to trust me on this one, DBF. 

[The One and Only Mo]

I don't think Chasidim have a higher rate of pedophilia than is the average--never said that. All of my comments were specific to Satmar. If you read the facts of that case, it is clear that the Satmar establishment supported that pedophile Weberman, raised money for his legal defense, and attempted to intimidate the victim. They behaved exactly like certain churches that go out of their way to sweep pedophile priests/pastors under the rug and deny their victims justice.

Yes, there was definitely some corruption, but a) innocent till proven guilty b) the victim might not have been credible (at the time) c) many satmars were disgusted by the support he got d) there is a Jewish Law which states that you gotta judge favorably until you know for certain the guy is guilty. I'm not advocating the support he got, but in a situation like that, a Jew has an obligation to help a fellow Jew. Now, if they knew he was a pedophile and tried to cover it up, that's one thing. But if they just wanted to see a fair trial, then they are just abiding by the Torah. Again, Satmar is not to be blamed as a whole. I beg you to see that it's only a small percentage who are guilty.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

In hell, Martin Luther will be burned for eating and wiped for being awake!