Shalom

[muman613]

Muman.

You wrote this:

Bold added for emphasis.  You listed 2 ideas: "only through outreach we can bring them back" and "we can(not) just bash" them.  By writing "But you have another idea" directly following that, you assumed (incorrectly) that I disagree with those 2 concepts.  Hence, you ascribed the following beliefs to me:  That we "can bring them back without outreach" (or maybe you meant "we don't need to bring them back") and "we can just bash them."
I don't know how I can make it clearer.  I don't know how you cannot see that you put those words in my mouth.

And what does it stem from?   Because Ephraim made a comment, which I thought about in a completely different way than you, but you assumed that YOUR INTERPRETATION OF EPHRAIM'S STATEMENT WAS THE ONLY POSSIBLE INTERPRETATION THAT A HUMAN BRAIN COULD COME UP WITH, and therefore, since I wrote that Ephraim was confused, it MUST BE, it absolutely MUST BE that not only did I interpret his comment exactly as you did, but I also disagreed with the concept he put forth (according to you as you interpret him).   Did you ever stop to think that perhaps I viewed his comment in a totally different way than you?    Why is this so hard to understand?   Am I not being clear?

KWRBT,

As always I seek peace between Jews. If what I wrote struck you as incorrect I apologize. I had no intention of sparking a problem with you and as you point out here it is possible we had a major misunderstanding.

Forgive me for not expressing my opinion in a way which avoids confusion.

[muman613]

Welcome to the loony bin.

He didn't say this.   You just read one of my latest comments and now ascribe my own view onto what he said.

Quote me a place where Ephraim distinguished between members and leaders in this thread.   Please I'm begging you, quote it for me.

Or maybe you just want to quote my latest post and switch the name to Ephraim?   You are really out of line here Muman.   


I called him confused because he sounds like he is saying we need to accept the movements.  Or that our rejection of the movements and bashing the movements is somehow equivalent to bashing all individuals associated with it.   When that's not true.

KWRBT,

And in support of Ephraim I would like to point out that it is important to state that the problem is with the leaders of the 'reform' movement and not the people brought up in it. This is why I think Ephraim had the right idea, to do outreach to all kinds of Jews, and you seemed to disagree.

I cannot explain why you are reading what I wrote and not understanding it.

Maybe you didn't learn how to comprehend English in school. But I will explain to you again what I was saying.

Ephraim is correct that we should not bash reform as often as we do, even though you think you are bashing the institution the person who belongs to the 'reform temple' looks at it as a personal bash against his 'version' of our faith. I completely understand what he was saying there.

My point in the last post you had a problem with points out that when rebuking the 'reform' movement we always mention it is the leaders of the 'reform' movement who are deserving the rebuke.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

Maybe you didn't learn how to comprehend English in school.

You will have to take it up with my teachers.

[muman613]

You will have to take it up with my teachers.

I just said that because I am frustrated at this current thread. I hope you know that I still love you like a Jewish brother.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ephraim is correct that we should not bash reform as often as we do, even though you think you are bashing the institution the person who belongs to the 'reform temple' looks at it as a personal bash against his 'version' of our faith. I completely understand what he was saying there.

That's interesting, but the problem is, Ephraim didn't say this.  When I asked him for clarification he didn't offer any of what you just wrote.   It seems to me like you are just putting your own words into what he said.  Care to take a minute to reread his comments, and observe how your statements are NOT apparent in Ephraim's own words?   

Are you saying these things in his name because he elaborated to you in private message?  Because you read his mind?   Or some other reason?     I can't be expected to telepathically glean messages which aren't written in a forum post.   And it was Ephraim's response to me that led me to explain away some confusion (which you took exception to).   So if your words were not in his post, why do you take exception?   Again, it's because you interpreted him as saying something (which is not even just a single interpretation out of many, it seems like it's not even a possible one!) and assumed no one else could have understood his comments differently so I therefore must be disagreeing with some fundamental concepts you raised.     We are right back where we started.

As to your point stated in this post, I completely disagree.   Are you really suggesting that we need to hide the truth in order to appeal to reform congregants and avoid hurting their feelings?   I thought we are obligated to tell the truth.  Especially about a movement which pretends to be Judaism but actually drives Jews away from God and Torah.    There is not one Jewish rabbi in history who said like you imply, that we need to pretend Reform Movement is ok so as to not upset the sensibilities of its practitioners.   Not one.    If criticizing is "bashing," then bash we must.

By telling the truth about that evil movement, we may open some peoples' eyes.  By telling them their so-called movement is ok or acceptable, we let them continue on their path without having a second thought or giving it any thought whatsoever.

When I found out that the founders of Reform movement sought to "christianize" Judaism with such things as an organ player, forbidding people to wear kippas, changing Jerusalem into Berlin, and discarding mitzvot wholecloth, that was a shocking event which instantly ended my life as a self-assured "Reform Jew" who goes to shul once or twice a year and considers "my Judaism" equal to anyone else's, (just that some take it more literally).   That was actually what I believed and had no reason to question it or even think about it.   But then I learned about the Reformers and that past life ended instantly (beginning what became a long journey).

My point in the last post you had a problem with points out that when rebuking the 'reform' movement we always mention it is the leaders of the 'reform' movement who are deserving the rebuke.

Are you saying we always do?  Or that we always should?     What you are saying is not clear.
If you are saying we always do, then what's the problem?   I guess you are saying that we always *should make that distinction.   Well ok.

The founders and leaders of reform movement want to see the Jewish people destroyed, they support our enemies, they are anti-Israel (founded as such, and still are with their oslo agenda even though they claim they have changed stripes to "pro-Israel"), they don't believe in God or the Torah, and they are traitors.    That's pretty bad huh.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I just said that because I am frustrated at this current thread. I hope you know that I still love you like a Jewish brother.

If we met in person, I would give you a nice friendly handshake.  I would say hug, but I'm not a touchy feely person.   I don't take it personally when you argue with me.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

"1.  Who exactly did we refuse to work with, whom you believe we should have?   (I don't believe I'll get an actual answer to that one)." From KWRBT.

I won't answer it, because I never said it... Are you putting words in my mouth?

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

That's interesting, but the problem is, Ephraim didn't say this.  When I asked him for clarification he didn't offer any of what you just wrote.   It seems to me like you are just putting your own words into what he said.  Care to take a minute to reread his comments, and observe how your statements are NOT apparent in Ephraim's own words?   

Are you saying these things in his name because he elaborated to you in private message?  Because you read his mind?   Or some other reason?     I can't be expected to telepathically glean messages which aren't written in a forum post.   And it was Ephraim's response to me that led me to explain away some confusion (which you took exception to).   So if your words were not in his post, why do you take exception?   Again, it's because you interpreted him as saying something (which is not even just a single interpretation out of many, it seems like it's not even a possible one!) and assumed no one else could have understood his comments differently so I therefore must be disagreeing with some fundamental concepts you raised.     We are right back where we started.

As to your point stated in this post, I completely disagree.   Are you really suggesting that we need to hide the truth in order to appeal to reform congregants and avoid hurting their feelings?   I thought we are obligated to tell the truth.  Especially about a movement which pretends to be Judaism but actually drives Jews away from God and Torah.    There is not one Jewish rabbi in history who said like you imply, that we need to pretend Reform Movement is ok so as to not upset the sensibilities of its practitioners.   Not one.    If criticizing is "bashing," then bash we must.

By telling the truth about that evil movement, we may open some peoples' eyes.  By telling them their so-called movement is ok or acceptable, we let them continue on their path without having a second thought or giving it any thought whatsoever.

When I found out that the founders of Reform movement sought to "christianize" Judaism with such things as an organ player, forbidding people to wear kippas, changing Jerusalem into Berlin, and discarding mitzvot wholecloth, that was a shocking event which instantly ended my life as a self-assured "Reform Jew" who goes to shul once or twice a year and considers "my Judaism" equal to anyone else's, (just that some take it more literally).   That was actually what I believed and had no reason to question it or even think about it.   But then I learned about the Reformers and that past life ended instantly (beginning what became a long journey).

Are you saying we always do?  Or that we always should?     What you are saying is not clear.
If you are saying we always do, then what's the problem?   I guess you are saying that we always *should make that distinction.   Well ok.

The founders and leaders of reform movement want to see the Jewish people destroyed, they support our enemies, they are anti-Israel (founded as such, and still are with their oslo agenda even though they claim they have changed stripes to "pro-Israel"), they don't believe in God or the Torah, and they are traitors.    That's pretty bad huh.

Muman knew exactly what I was talking about. It must of been the psychic messages I sent him. Lol.

You mean to tell me they are ALL leftists?

?? ?

My whole point was that there are lost Jews out there, and if we are to abrasive we will scare them away. We have a great message, but we have to get them to take the bate, before they can truly hear...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"1.  Who exactly did we refuse to work with, whom you believe we should have?   (I don't believe I'll get an actual answer to that one)." From KWRBT.

I won't answer it, because I never said it... Are you putting words in my mouth?

You said "if we typecast the reform, they will never work with us."

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

You said "if we typecast the reform, they will never work with us."

What I thought I meant by "typecast" was to label them all the same. I never said "we" won't work with them... But I don't want to scare them away either... There are so many divisions in every branch, how the Heck are we going to bring lost Jews back to Torah and unite under ONE G-d if we can't agree with the sects even closest to us?(I'm not a Jew)

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What I thought I meant by "typecast" was to label them all the same. I never said "we" won't work with them... But I don't want to scare them away either... There are so many divisions in every branch, how the Heck are we going to bring lost Jews back to Torah and unite under ONE G-d if we can't agree with the sects even closest to us?(I'm not a Jew)

There you go again.   We cannot AGREE with anti-Jewish anti-Torah so-called "sects."   Reform is not a "sect."   It was a movement formed to replace and destroy Judaism, to cause Jews to stop keeping mitzvot and stop believing in Torah.     Expecting us to AGREE with them is insane.    That doesn't mean there are not decent Jews within their ranks being misled by a distorted movement.  In fact, there definitely are! 

Being lovey dovey with antithetical ideologies doesn't win you any respect or admiration.   Stating clearly the differences in ideology and why ours is true to Jewish tradition is the self-respect we need to display. 

Now, do you not comprehend that the vast majority of these movements and organizations (leftists like reform movement) do not "work with us" is because they are ideologically opposed to what we stand for?     It is not because we don't play nice or don't pretend enough their movements and beliefs or lack thereof are acceptable when they aren't.   It's because they hate viscerally everything we stand for and every ideological position we believe in.       Since you are telling me you are not Jewish, maybe that's a big reason it is hard for you to understand the dynamics at play between various Jewish and so-called Jewish groups.   You're seeing it from the outside. 

[Zelhar]

I could have used you, a former Reform Jew, on my deployment.  We had a chaplain who was a female Reconstructionist phony rabbi who I came to find out wasn't even Jewish (her mom converted to a phony form of Judaism).  I got together with the group she led in order to talk about Torah (only Jewish group out there), and we were studying Parashat Shlach Lecha, which talks about the spies who scouted out Israel as well as the mitzvah of tzitzit.  She asked for my opinion on the parasha and I said it was interesting how the minority of spies wanted to conquer the land while the majority were afraid--just like the modern situation where a minority of Jews want to rebuild the Temple but the majority of Jews don't because they are afraid or care more about what the Gentiles will think about them than what the Torah teaches, and I said that maybe the Jews should just show some faith, don their tzitzit and rebuild the Temple.  She was genuinely angry and offended that I said this.  It was a simple dvar Torah and she got upset.  She gave me some nonsense about how Orthodox Judaism was just one of many interpretations of Judaism and how "liberal Judaism" was just as valid and in line with tradition and how I was disparaging these Jews.  She said if I didn't stop being offensive and political, I would not be allowed to attend anymore.  I told her that she was being offensive when she said how much she disliked parts of the Torah that talked about the Temple and sacrifice and rendered them irrelevant, along with disparaging Orthodox Jews just because they're in the minority.  Once she said that the Exodus and Oral Torah were complete fantasies.  She said it's not her problem if I'm offended because I'm not Jewish and her job is to minister to the Jews.  She said the Navy gave her the authority to represent Judaism, and I said the U.S. Navy is not the Sanhedrin...and then I had to leave   I would have said more if it wasn't for the fact that she outranked me by a lot.  I wanted to say that she wasn't even Jewish and a Reconstructionist smicha is like getting your smicha in a box of cracker jacks, but then I probably would have been thrown overboard.

In conclusion, these Deform types are delusional God-haters and the only way to wake them out of their slumber is to shake them up a bit.  That's really the only way to have influence because they are wired not to care, and making them feel like they are doing something wrong is the only way to make them think about what they are doing.  It's the only way to keep them up at night thinking about these principles.

Do you think this "rabbi" sings "ma oz tzur" in Chanuka without realizing what it says ?

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

There you go again.   We cannot AGREE with anti-Jewish anti-Torah so-called "sects."   Reform is not a "sect."   It was a movement formed to replace and destroy Judaism, to cause Jews to stop keeping mitzvot and stop believing in Torah.     Expecting us to AGREE with them is insane.    That doesn't mean there are not decent Jews within their ranks being misled by a distorted movement.  In fact, there definitely are! 

Being lovey dovey with antithetical ideologies doesn't win you any respect or admiration.   Stating clearly the differences in ideology and why ours is true to Jewish tradition is the self-respect we need to display. 

Now, do you not comprehend that the vast majority of these movements and organizations (leftists like reform movement) do not "work with us" is because they are ideologically opposed to what we stand for?     It is not because we don't play nice or don't pretend enough their movements and beliefs or lack thereof are acceptable when they aren't.   It's because they hate viscerally everything we stand for and every ideological position we believe in.       Since you are telling me you are not Jewish, maybe that's a big reason it is hard for you to understand the dynamics at play between various Jewish and so-called Jewish groups.   You're seeing it from the outside.

Sorry I was not more clear with the sentence you highlighted, I was referring more to Orthodox there. I once saw followers of Yisroel Ber Odesser bashing Rabbi Schneerson.

[muman613]

I have addressed this multiple times. We don't have to agree with, endorse, support, give strength to, or otherwise say anything good concerning the so-called strains of Judaism which are heretical. I do not, nor to I think I ever said, that reform and conservative and others are acceptable forms of worship and observance according to Jewish custom and law.

But that being said I think that individual Jews who attend such synagogues are not all evil leftists, and not all of them accept the heretical beliefs which are taught by some of the so-called 'Rabbis' in those institutions. I know this from my experience and as a result I do not hate (or even feel ill will) toward the majority of true Jews who are involved with those congregations.

I have witnesses kiruv from Torah Jews, Orthodox Jews reaching out to Jews who have not grown up in a house of Torah and Mitzvot. I myself was enlightened and now I find that I too can bring Jews out of those dark places.

Judaism is a decentralized religion meaning that anyone can start a minyan (with ten Jewish men) and perform the services. Thus each of us, who has gained sufficient knowledge, can have Shabbat minyans where the prayers are said in the traditional manner, and even Torah readings can be done without a Rabbi if the leader knows how to Layn (read the Torah with the correct chant). If you don't like the congregation because of it's heretical ideas, do not go there, but try to bring some others with you who are seeking true Torah Judaism.

My 95 year old WWII veteran friend has told us many times about when he was in the service they didn't have Jewish chaplains many times. He and his Orthodox buddies would set up their own Pesach seders and Shabbat Torah readings and they would do them in traditional Orthodox minhagim (customs).

It is my hope that some of us good Torah Jews could do more outreach to those Jews caught in the darkness of the reform and conservative movements. I am confident that we could find many who would be willing to listen to the soft rebuke, not the harsh rebuke which many times we give, and start moving towards a more Torah-True path (including being more Zionistic in the religious sense).

These ideas are not intended to be argued about rather to be thought about, and hopefully brought to action.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sorry I was not more clear with the sentence you highlighted, I was referring more to Orthodox there. I once saw followers of Yisroel Ber Odesser bashing Rabbi Schneerson.

Unfortunately, there would have been no reason to bash him if he hadn't allowed his chasidim to proclaim him Moschiach and do nothing about it.   That suddenly made people realize this ideology is veering away from Judaism.  Like a reform only with orthodox foundation.  I've never heard of the rabbi you mentioned but he's certainly not the only one in history to have a problem with the meshichists of chabad.   But Jtf is friendly to chabad (non-meshichist) and has chabad members so I'm not sure the relevance of this note in regards to this discussion.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I could have used you, a former Reform Jew, on my deployment.  We had a chaplain who was a female Reconstructionist phony rabbi who I came to find out wasn't even Jewish (her mom converted to a phony form of Judaism).  I got together with the group she led in order to talk about Torah (only Jewish group out there), and we were studying Parashat Shlach Lecha, which talks about the spies who scouted out Israel as well as the mitzvah of tzitzit.  She asked for my opinion on the parasha and I said it was interesting how the minority of spies wanted to conquer the land while the majority were afraid--just like the modern situation where a minority of Jews want to rebuild the Temple but the majority of Jews don't because they are afraid or care more about what the Gentiles will think about them than what the Torah teaches, and I said that maybe the Jews should just show some faith, don their tzitzit and rebuild the Temple.  She was genuinely angry and offended that I said this.  It was a simple dvar Torah and she got upset.  She gave me some nonsense about how Orthodox Judaism was just one of many interpretations of Judaism and how "liberal Judaism" was just as valid and in line with tradition and how I was disparaging these Jews.  She said if I didn't stop being offensive and political, I would not be allowed to attend anymore.  I told her that she was being offensive when she said how much she disliked parts of the Torah that talked about the Temple and sacrifice and rendered them irrelevant, along with disparaging Orthodox Jews just because they're in the minority.  Once she said that the Exodus and Oral Torah were complete fantasies.  She said it's not her problem if I'm offended because I'm not Jewish and her job is to minister to the Jews.  She said the Navy gave her the authority to represent Judaism, and I said the U.S. Navy is not the Sanhedrin...and then I had to leave   I would have said more if it wasn't for the fact that she outranked me by a lot.  I wanted to say that she wasn't even Jewish and a Reconstructionist smicha is like getting your smicha in a box of cracker jacks, but then I probably would have been thrown overboard.

In conclusion, these Deform types are delusional God-haters and the only way to wake them out of their slumber is to shake them up a bit.  That's really the only way to have influence because they are wired not to care, and making them feel like they are doing something wrong is the only way to make them think about what they are doing.  It's the only way to keep them up at night thinking about these principles.

Wow a big yasher koach to you dan ben noach.  Good for you for standing up to her.

Even if you didn't change her sick biases there at least may have been other Jews around who go the message that what she is presenting is not authentic.

[muman613]

Dan,

Is there any Chabad presence in your group? If not maybe you could see if there is a desire for true Jewish observance in your deployment and if so you may be able to get Chabad involved in providing kosher Rabbis and kosher food, etc...

I know that around here Chabad does services for the local air base.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"once saw followers of Yisroel Ber Odesser bashing Rabbi Schneerson. "

Actually I have a feeling its the pot calling the kettle black in this case. As most likely its both groups who went off the derech and both are types of Meshihists. One Chabad the other fringe of Breslov who thought that Odesser was the Meshiah or to use Hassidic terminology a Bihinat of Rebbe Nachman mi Breslov who was Bihinat of Moshe/Moshiah.

 I have a feeling that you encountered those people.

[muman613]

Unfortunately, there would have been no reason to bash him if he hadn't allowed his chasidim to proclaim him Moschiach and do nothing about it.   That suddenly made people realize this ideology is veering away from Judaism.  Like a reform only with orthodox foundation.  I've never heard of the rabbi you mentioned but he's certainly not the only one in history to have a problem with the meshichists of chabad.   But Jtf is friendly to chabad (non-meshichist) and has chabad members so I'm not sure the relevance of this note in regards to this discussion.

KWRBT,

You made a comment without even checking if that was the reason this Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser supposedly 'bashed' Rabbi Schneerson. Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser is a Breslover Rabbi who has made some claims which you would find out of the norm. He claims to have received a message from Shamayim from Rabbi Nachman who by many Mitnagdim also didn't quell his followers into not believe Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach. As a quasi-follower of Breslov I know that Rebbe Nachman did not say he was Moshiach, and neither did Rabbi Schneerson... So I doubt that what you suggest is the cause of Rabbi Odesser knocking the Chabad Rebbe...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na_Nach_Nachma_Nachman_Meuman

The Na Nach Nachma phrase was "revealed" and taught by Rabbi Yisroel Ber Odesser, a well known Breslov figure who was born in 1888 in Tiberias. Odesser was among the first Breslover Hasidim in Israel, having learned about the movement from Rabbi Yisroel Halpern when he was a young yeshiva student.

When he was 33 years old, Odesser was overcome with weakness and hunger on the Fast of Tammuz. He decided to eat. But immediately after eating, he felt great sorrow at having succumbed to his own physical temptations. After five continuous days of prayer, a powerful thought came to him: "Go into your room!" He obeyed the inner voice, went to the bookcase, and randomly opened a book. In the book was a piece of paper that he would later call "The Letter from Heaven." The paper, written in Hebrew with one line in Yiddish, read as follows:

It was very difficult for me to come down to you
my precious student to tell you that I had pleasure
very much from your devotion and upon you I said
my fire will burn until
Messiah is coming be strong and courageous
in your devotion
Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman
And with this I will reveal to you a secret and it is:
Full and heaped up from one extreme to another extreme (PTPTYH)[3]
And with the strengthening of your devotion you will understand it and a sign
The 17th of Tammuz they will say that you don't fast

Odesser believed the letter to be a message of consolation, directly from Rebbe Nachman's spirit to himself here on earth. Since his name did not appear in the petek as the recipient, Odesser said that this was reason for every person to consider the petek addressed to himself or herself personally.[4] Odesser adopted Na Nach Nachma Nachman Meuman as his personal meditation and song, and became so totally identified with it that he later said, "I am Na Nach Nachma Nachman Me'Uman!" (This quote appears on Odesser's tombstone in Jerusalem.)

[muman613]

Let me add that I agree that those who believe that their Rebbe, who has died, is Moshiach is problematic and may even be heretical. All those who I am involved with at Chabad reject the idea that Rabbi Schneerson is Moshiach, and yet they (and I too) believe he had 'sparks of moshiach' and that in every generation there are Jews who are potential Moshaichs if the time is right.

[muman613]

I don't think any of the Jews on my ship were orthodox.  The chaplains they send out to sea pretty much have to facilitate everyone.  Like this female "rabbi" had to sit in on the Christian services because there were no lay leaders.  So to do this job your religion pretty much has to be watered down, so Chabad would probably not provide rabbis.  Chabad may be providing support to bigger commands though which have more Jews.  It is possible that Chabad could send some kosher food out every now and then if people were interested.  This phony "rabbi" claimed she kept kosher but ate the same treif meat everyone else has to eat, and said she has a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to restaurants, meaning she will eat non-kosher food at restaurants as long as she doesn't know about any non-kosher ingredients.  I told her that there are restaurants that are certified kosher so you don't have to worry about eating non-kosher food, and her response was "Yeah but they're not very good."  Which I know that is incorrect because the kosher restaurant I went to in New York was very good.

Sounds miserable for you. I am sorry it is so bad... Luckily you are not transgressing because you have not converted yet... But if you were to convert you would be faced with a big conflict there...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I don't think any of the Jews on my ship were orthodox.  The chaplains they send out to sea pretty much have to facilitate everyone.  Like this female "rabbi" had to sit in on the Christian services because there were no lay leaders.  So to do this job your religion pretty much has to be watered down, so Chabad would probably not provide rabbis.  Chabad may be providing support to bigger commands though which have more Jews.  It is possible that Chabad could send some kosher food out every now and then if people were interested.  This phony "rabbi" claimed she kept kosher but ate the same treif meat everyone else has to eat, and said she has a "don't ask don't tell" policy when it comes to restaurants, meaning she will eat non-kosher food at restaurants as long as she doesn't know about any non-kosher ingredients.  I told her that there are restaurants that are certified kosher so you don't have to worry about eating non-kosher food, and her response was "Yeah but they're not very good."  Which I know that is incorrect because the kosher restaurant I went to in New York was very good.

Are you able to keep kosher when you're out?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I could have used you, a former Reform Jew, on my deployment.  We had a chaplain who was a female Reconstructionist phony rabbi who I came to find out wasn't even Jewish (her mom converted to a phony form of Judaism).  I got together with the group she led in order to talk about Torah (only Jewish group out there), and we were studying Parashat Shlach Lecha, which talks about the spies who scouted out Israel as well as the mitzvah of tzitzit.  She asked for my opinion on the parasha and I said it was interesting how the minority of spies wanted to conquer the land while the majority were afraid--just like the modern situation where a minority of Jews want to rebuild the Temple but the majority of Jews don't because they are afraid or care more about what the Gentiles will think about them than what the Torah teaches, and I said that maybe the Jews should just show some faith, don their tzitzit and rebuild the Temple.  She was genuinely angry and offended that I said this.  It was a simple dvar Torah and she got upset.  She gave me some nonsense about how Orthodox Judaism was just one of many interpretations of Judaism and how "liberal Judaism" was just as valid and in line with tradition and how I was disparaging these Jews.  She said if I didn't stop being offensive and political, I would not be allowed to attend anymore.  I told her that she was being offensive when she said how much she disliked parts of the Torah that talked about the Temple and sacrifice and rendered them irrelevant, along with disparaging Orthodox Jews just because they're in the minority.  Once she said that the Exodus and Oral Torah were complete fantasies.  She said it's not her problem if I'm offended because I'm not Jewish and her job is to minister to the Jews.  She said the Navy gave her the authority to represent Judaism, and I said the U.S. Navy is not the Sanhedrin...and then I had to leave   I would have said more if it wasn't for the fact that she outranked me by a lot.  I wanted to say that she wasn't even Jewish and a Reconstructionist smicha is like getting your smicha in a box of cracker jacks, but then I probably would have been thrown overboard.

In conclusion, these Deform types are delusional God-haters and the only way to wake them out of their slumber is to shake them up a bit.  That's really the only way to have influence because they are wired not to care, and making them feel like they are doing something wrong is the only way to make them think about what they are doing.  It's the only way to keep them up at night thinking about these principles.

Do you think she knows what Bnei Noah are or does she think it's made up? What about ministering to Bnei Noah? You should do that.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Unfortunately, there would have been no reason to bash him if he hadn't allowed his chasidim to proclaim him Moschiach and do nothing about it.   That suddenly made people realize this ideology is veering away from Judaism.  Like a reform only with orthodox foundation.  I've never heard of the rabbi you mentioned but he's certainly not the only one in history to have a problem with the meshichists of chabad.   But Jtf is friendly to chabad (non-meshichist) and has chabad members so I'm not sure the relevance of this note in regards to this discussion.

Wasn't it pretty common for people to think someone might be the Messiah in earlier times? Is it because of the results of one person in particular that we all freak when people think someone might be the Messiah?

[muman613]

Wasn't it pretty common for people to think someone might be the Messiah in earlier times? Is it because of the results of one person in particular that we all freak when people think someone might be the Messiah?

The issue is not whether one believes someone might be Moshiach. I believe you are referring to the fact that Rabbi Akiva believed that Bar Kochba was the Moshiach. But after Bar Kochba died it was clear that Bar Kochba was not the Moshiach, so Rabbi Akivah acknowledged the fact that Bar Kochba was not Moshiach...

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/tworoads/my-spouse-is-jewish-i-am-not/will-the-real-messiah-please-stand-up/

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.