Who is A Blue Thread really?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Do you celebrate 2-day holidays like Rosh HaShana on only one day now that we can precisely determine the correct date?

 2. Completely different reasons. The 2 day is a Takanah by the Hachamim for those outside of Eress Yisrael Cannot be rescinded until their is a functioning Sanhedrin and it decides that the reasoning doesn't apply for a 2 day Yom Tov outside Eress Yisrael. (+ RH besides the others is more complecated as we see people even in Israel do it for 2 days).

 With Tekhellet that reasoning does not apply. It would be like someone being in an airplane and the plane crashing and he's stuck on an Island. In that island he has no Tefillin no Sisit etc. So he is obviously pattur. One day a ship passes by and rescues him. He returns to his home, to civilization. Once he is back and has his Tefillin etc. he is again obligated to perform these Misswoth. Just because at the time of his stay on the island he didn't have them, thus was pattur does not negate the Misswah indefinitely. And once the opportunity arises again he not only can but must put on his Tefillin.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

You are wrong as to the reason Orthodox Jews do not wear the thread of blue. Actually the reason we do not wear it is because there is still a valid question as to whether the dye used for the blue color is the correct Techilis as was used in the time of the giving of the Torah.

 Dude I can understand REAL doubts being formed etc. BUT the underlying reason BEHIND many of these things is definitely the mentality. You cannot deny it. That is why their is no talk of rebuilding the Temple. That is why people still insist on Metzita Ba Pe, that is why not wearing Tehellit and that is why not real formation of the Sanhedrin, also why no willingness in writing up the Ketuba in a way that will make sure that the husband will give it more readily instead of tying up some women (with financial loss) which can be easily done because it is essentially a contract. These people are simply not used to ANY change and not wanting to come out of their comfort zone.

About the Tehellit 
 By the way their is real very very very strong evidence available for this. It is basically unanimous for those who are really knowledgeable in this field like for example these people
 
http://www.tekhelet.com/

 Also shiur on this.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/504-the-truth-about-tekheleth

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Shabbat Shalom, everyone ~

As it seems I am not welcome here and my presence is distressing to many of you, I will make this my final post here and continue my search for a more open community. I am dismayed that I caused so much of a firestorm here by posting my thoughts; it was not my intention to do so. I should have spent more time researching what type of forum this is before I joined; I take responsibility for that mistake.

As for my being Jewish, I can't make any of you believe what you don't want to believe- nor should I have to. As I noted in a previous post, I was not born into Judaism- I chose it- and doing so this late in life leaves me at a disadvantage among those who have lived their whole lives immersed in the faith. There is much I still have to learn- even the most thorough conversion program can't produce someone who knows everything at the drop of a hat on Day 1. Apparently even a lifetime isn't long enough to learn everything, so why should anyone be singled out for not surpassing the best scholars? In any case, so much for welcoming converts into the community.

In closing I wish all of you all the best, and I hope that if at some point our paths cross again either in person or online it's a happier experience than this has been for me. Good afternoon, and a Good Shabbat to all.

-----

ABT

Bye. Don't let the door hit your tuchis on the way out.

[TruthSpreader]

Bye. Don't let the door hit your tuchis on the way out.

 

If the door did hit his tuchis, it wouldn't be blue but red instead.

[muman613]

Dude I can understand REAL doubts being formed etc. BUT the underlying reason BEHIND many of these things is definitely the mentality. You cannot deny it. That is why their is no talk of rebuilding the Temple. That is why people still insist on Metzita Ba Pe, that is why not wearing Tehellit and that is why not real formation of the Sanhedrin, also why no willingness in writing up the Ketuba in a way that will make sure that the husband will give it more readily instead of tying up some women (with financial loss) which can be easily done because it is essentially a contract. These people are simply not used to ANY change and not wanting to come out of their comfort zone.

About the Tehellit 
 By the way their is real very very very strong evidence available for this. It is basically unanimous for those who are really knowledgeable in this field like for example these people
 
http://www.tekhelet.com/

 Also shiur on this.
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/504-the-truth-about-tekheleth

You sound more and more like a Karaite or Samaritan to me because of your casting aspersions on the Rabbis. It's as if the Rabbis are the bad guys who are leading us astray. I on the other hand put my trust in the Rabbis who have kept us Jewish for all these centuries, and seek to find the majority opinion of the Gedolim of the generation.

There is not consensus on this issue and this is why most Jews do not wear the blue thread. If your Rabbi thinks it is correct, follow your Rabbi, but don't expect all Jews to suddenly accept the ruling of some Rabbis who may or may not have ulterior motives for selling blue dye.

There are many things which need to be done and yet nobody is doing it because we cannot do so today (rebuilding the Temple, aguna problem, etc.) . Go ahead and try if you would like, I am not stopping you. But I doubt you will have more success than others who have tried.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

You sound more and more like a Karaite or Samaritan to me because of your casting aspersions on the Rabbis. It's as if the Rabbis are the bad guys who are leading us astray. I on the other hand put my trust in the Rabbis who have kept us Jewish for all these centuries, and seek to find the majority opinion of the Gedolim of the generation.

There are many things which need to be done and yet nobody is doing it because we cannot do so today (rebuilding the Temple, aguna problem, etc.) . Go ahead and try if you would like, I am not stopping you. But I doubt you will have more success than others who have tried.

 1) 

 2) 

 I will B"H come back to this and rip your arguments apart some time later. Your attitude and words prove my point.
 For now digest this song (I know you like Rap)

Warning* Black man rapping.

 

[muman613]

Tag,

Do you believe that the Torah was given to Moses and the Jewish people at Sinai and is the WORD of HASHEM? Does Hashem change his laws for the times? Do you think we can change Shabbat to Sunday instead of Saturday (the seventh day)? It seems to me according to your thinking we should be able to change all of these things. Maybe we can eat Cheese and Meat too... If a Rabbi says you can you should be able to do so. The Torah does simply say 'do not cook a kid in its mothers milk', and eating cheese on a meat sandwich is not 'cooking a kid with it's mothers milk', is it?

The Talmud, the sages, and the Rabbis of our generations have interpreted these things and our patriarchs have followed. The entire downfall of the Jewish people occured when the reform movement attempted to disassociate the beliefs from the Torah, relegating the Torah to an ANCIENT document which no longer has relevance today.

Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah is sacrosanct and no person can change the laws, and the interpretation of the Torah is relegated to the Levites who today are our Rabbis and Talmid Chochams. I will investigate the findings of the sages who are leaders of the generation and put my faith in the majority decision.

[muman613]

Look into Rabbi Solevetchiks opinion on the 'aguna problem' to determine why things are the way they are today concerning the 'chained woman'.

[muman613]

I do not listen to that kind of music... Never like tupac...

There is nothing to rip apart, save the belief of Orthodox Judaism... You seem to think our belief in the traditions of our forefathers is a bad thing... I strongly disagree with you on that.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag,

Do you believe that the Torah was given to Moses and the Jewish people at Sinai and is the WORD of HASHEM? Does Hashem change his laws for the times?

 Now I am offended. You are not only slow but you accuse me of Keffirah? Why you always  do this? you change the subject, make personal attacks like that and say things having NOTHING to do with the discussion. Like I said I g2g and if I dont forget (you can remind me as well) I will get back and address what I said I would address.

[muman613]

Now I am offended. You are not only slow but you accuse me of Keffirah? Why you always  do this? you change the subject, make personal attacks like that and say things having NOTHING to do with the discussion. Like I said I g2g and if I dont forget (you can remind me as well) I will get back and address what I said I would address.

I do not intend to insult, but sometimes your accusations against the Rabbis is insulting.

Have a good Shabbat and I will look for you 'ripping' my points to shreds Motzei Shabbat.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

* reminder to myself to also address and include the usual speeches you will probably hear about Tishabav and "rebuilding the Temple" what is USUALLY said and what is USUALLY NOT SAID.

 Quickly about Agunot- Can be easily done. Hachamim prescribe and did at 1 time enforce beatings upon the man who refused to give the divorce, instead of some today telling the women to give the man some $ (like $10,000) soo he gives her the divorce. NO punishment upon him and incentive to criminals because they don't want to take care of the problems. REAL Torah laws addresses all these issues and the enforcement of real Torah is the answer.

[muman613]

Tag,

Indeed there is work in the field of resolving the aguna issue, and I am interested in seeing it resolved, but there are certainly halachic issues which need to be discussed (as you bring up the traditional method of beating the husband into giving the divorce)...

Here is Chabad's discussion of the issue:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/613084/jewish/The-Agunah.htm

The Agunah
By Naftali Silberberg

In the overwhelming majority of cases, the get process proceeds without hitches, offering men and women the ability to be freed of unwanted matrimonial bonds. No rabbi will remarry the husband or wife unless the previous marriage has been terminated with a get, so arranging for a get is within the best interests of both parties.

Sadly, however, there are some people who refuse to grant their spouses the opportunity of a get. This distressing phenomenon that has effectively ruined the lives of innocent people is known as the "Agunah Problem."

Historical Overview of the Agunah Issue

Agunah means "anchored," or "chained." An agunah is a married woman who is not living with her husband, but has not been released from the bonds of matrimony. Though she wishes to put her marriage behind her, she is not free to remarry. She is chained to an unwanted marriage.

According to halachah, a woman may not remarry unless there is clear evidence that her husband had died or halachically divorced her with a get document. In times past, most agunot (pl. form of agunah) were victims of vanishing husbands. Traveling businessmen were often killed by bandits, who would dispose of the body leaving behind no trace of evidence. Or, a traveler would die in a remote location, and due to the lack of communication technology, or proper identification on the husband's person, the wife would remain uniformed. Frequent pogroms and wars habitually left agunot in their wake. Before recent times it was also fairly easy for an individual who had fallen upon hard times – or was unhappy with his current job, lifestyle, marriage, reputation, etc. – to simply vanish in the night and resurface in another city or country and start anew, unencumbered by previous obligations—including marital ones.1

The "agunah problem" was always one of the greatest challenges facing halachic authorities. The sages of the Talmud,2 recognizing the tremendous personal tragedy of the agunah, instituted various halachic leniencies intended to decrease the incidence of women in this woeful state.3 In biblical times, soldiers who were dispatched to the battlefield were required to first deliver a divorce to their wives,4 allowing the wives to remarry in the event that the husbands did not return.5 Halachic literature of the last millennium is dominated by "agunah responsa," penned by halachic authorities in response to inquiries from agunot who presented (sometimes flimsy) evidence of their husband's demise, and now wished rabbinical authorization to remarry. A precursory glance at these responsa reveals how these rabbis went to great lengths to find halachic precedent to declare these women widows.6

The Modern-Day Agunah

Today the world is "smaller," and it is it is very uncommon for people to simply vanish. Nevertheless, the agunah problem persists, primarily due to husbands who cruelly refuse to grant their wives a divorce—despite rabbinical courts' orders to do so. A variety of reasons motivate these recalcitrant men. Many of them are unhappy with the financial aspect of their divorce settlement, others with custody arrangements, and they use the get as leverage in negotiations. Others hold their wives ransom, refusing to give a get until the wife pays an outrageous sum of money. While others refuse to give a get simply out of malice and spite.

Ironically, this type of agunah, the one whose husband is very much present but refuses to give a get, is a relatively new phenomenon. According to halachah, though it is the husband who gives his wife the get, a woman too may demand a divorce if she can prove that the husband is neglectful, repulsive or abusive. In such an instance, the halachah is unequivocal:

"One who is halachically required to divorce his wife and refuses to do so, a Jewish beth din – at any place and at any time7 – corporally punishes him until he says, 'I wish [to divorce].' The get is then written and it is a kosher get."8

In short: the beth din is empowered to use any and all methods at their disposal to compel the husband to "agree" to divorce his wife. This includes imposing sanctions on having casual or business dealings with the noncompliant husband, and even using brute force if necessary.9

These measures were enough to induce the vast majority of people to comply with the rabbinical courts' decisions in these matters. This remained the case until relatively recently; because for the most part Jewish communities in the Diaspora were authorized to police, adjudicate internal disputes and dispense justice within their own communities.

Today, however, religious courts are not empowered to take justice into their own hands. Add to that the fact that today most Jewish communities are not united under the auspices of one specific communal body or rabbinical court, thus severely limiting the efficacy of any social or religious sanctions imposed by a given beth din.

Thus the agunah problem has evolved. The problem of vanishing husbands has practically vanished. In its stead we are faced with a new scourge: the recalcitrant husband.

Solutions

Recent years has seen an increased awareness regarding the agunah problem, and attempts to aid those women who find themselves in this unenviable situation.

Seemingly the most obvious solution – one that has been promoted, with some measure of success, by various individuals and organizations – would be to lobby the secular legislatures to enact laws that require recalcitrant husbands to grant their wives a get—along with punitive measures for those who disregard these laws.

Nevertheless, this solution has not been universally accepted by halachic authorities. One of the major issues involved is that according to halachah a get that is granted under duress, not entirely out of the husband's free volition, is null and void. Though we mentioned earlier that a beth din is free to use whatever measures necessary to persuade a husband to give a divorce, this only applies when these measures are taken by the beth din or by individuals (Jewish or non-Jewish) retained by beth din to perform this task.10

So many have shifted the focus of their efforts back to the rabbis, with different groups and organizations encouraging rabbis and rabbinical courts to actively do whatever is within their capability to induce husbands to divorce their wives—public shaming, community shunning, etc.

There are also several support groups that offer agunot the opportunity to dialogue, share ideas and offer each other moral support.

Chained Husbands

A little more than 1,000 years ago, the beth din of a German rabbi, Rabbi Gershom "the Light of the Diaspora," instituted major reforms in Jewish marriage law. He forbade polygamy, and decreed that a woman cannot be divorced without her consent. These reforms have been accepted as law in all Ashkenazi communities, and in certain Sephardic ones as well.11

As a result, a man whose wife refuses to receive a get12 is also "anchored" to his marriage.13

And again Tag, I am not intending to attack your beliefs, I am simply explaining how it looks from my perspective. I am sorry if what I said seemed to imply you are not keeping the commandments according to your Rabbis teaching... That is not what I am trying to convey...

And most certainly I do not seek to create divisiveness especially during these nine days.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Hey, why was the second Temple destroyed again? What did that lead to? Where are we today?

[muman613]

Hey, why was the second Temple destroyed again?

The Talmud says that it is due to 'Sinat Chinam' or 'Baseless hatred'... But according to my position I bear no hatred toward anyone I am having discussions with here. As I said in previous 'machloket' the purpose of holy machloket is the sake of heaven. Any conflict for the sake of heaven will stand, any conflict not for the sake of heaven will not stand.

[muman613]

A short article on why the Second Temple was destroyed:


http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/devarim/042.htm

Many of us are familiar with the expression, "sinat chinam baseless hatred." The Talmud (Tractate Yoma) tells us that sinat chinam destroyed the Second Temple. It was, in effect, worse than the three cardinal sins of idolatry, immorality, and bloodshed which destroyed the First Temple. After all, we rebuilt the First Temple after just 70 years; we are still waiting to rebuild the second, 1,930 years after its fall.

Just what is sinat chinam, after all? I know that we cavalierly call it "baseless hatred," but that definition has always bothered me. Have you ever encountered someone who hated another person for no reason at all? Our reasons may be petty or trivial "he snubbed me; she’s too pretty, he parts his hair on the wrong side, etc." However, we always have some justification for our hatred, sensical or non.

I would suggest two interpretations of sinat chinam. The first relates to the well-known story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza. It was Kamtza who was invited to a gala banquet; but by mistake the host’s enemy Bar Kamtza was brought. No amount of pleading helped; even Bar Kamtza’s offer to pay for the entire banquet was rejected by the stubborn host. Bar Kamtza was humiliated and evicted from the hall, in full view of seemingly complacent and uncaring rabbinical leaders. Bar Kamtza’s revenge led to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now, "Kamtza" means "cheapskate" or "stingy." There is an obvious play on words at work here. Though stingy by nature, this uninvited guest was willing to pay and pay dearly in order not to be embarrassed publicly, and to be able to stay at the banquet. The host, who would have ended up throwing this magnificent party at no cost to himself, instead chose to make a spectacle of his adversary by throwing him out.

The sinah (hatred) in this case was truly worthless. It generated no profit, it brought in no revenue whatsoever. The love that might have been shown would not only have soothed hurt feelings, it would have earned the host a pretty penny. Still, hate prevailed. When "worthless" hate outweighs "valuable" love, then we have really reached rock bottom.

One more thought on the subject: The words, "sinat chinam" literally mean "the hate of their cheyn." Cheyn is a hard word to translate, but essentially it means grace, likeability, charm. It is the unique quality which every person possesses in different measure, that which makes us special, and validates our presence in the world. Sinat chinam is the denial of another’s right to exist, the belief that he or she contributes nothing valuable to this earth. That attitude is an affront not only to the other person, but also to Hashem who made that individual. The antidote to sinat chinam, then, is not "free love," but rather the respect of every other person’s unique place in Hashem’s universe. May we see the fast of this Tishah B’Av become the joy of the complete redemption.

[muman613]

http://torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter4-14.html

Chapter 4, Mishna 14


"Rabbi Yochanan the sandal maker said: Every assembly which is for the sake of Heaven will eventually endure. And one which is not for the sake of Heaven will not endure."

http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2000/07/03/korach-5760-2000/

This coming week’s parasha, Parashat Korach, tells of the famed controversy between Korach and Moshe, which concludes with the earth swallowing Korach and his followers.

The Mishna in Avot, chapter 5, makes mention of Korach’s rebellion: “Every controversy which is for the sake of Heaven will endure in the end, and every one which is not for the sake of heaven will in the end not endure. Which is the controversy for the sake of Heaven? Such was the conflict of Hillel and Shammai. Which is not for the sake of Heaven? Such was the conflict of Korach and his entire assemblage.”

On a superficial level, controversy is controversy. What difference is there between the controversy of rabbis or the controversy of rebels. The Mishna in Avot argues that obviously there is a difference, and the difference is significant. Although the controversies between Hillel and Shammai were great and undoubtedly heated, both Hillel and Shammai ultimately submitted to the majority opinion, even if they were totally opposed to those positions. Despite the fact that Hillel was known to be lenient and Shammai far stricter, both Hillel and Shammai had one objective — to help the People of Israel grow in their observance of Torah. They only differed on the details.

As we all know, controversy has been part of Jewish life from time immemorial. In fact, most of the rabbis of the Talmud had “sparring partners” who would often give opposing opinions to their own. These opposing opinions are considered so valuable that they are recorded in the Talmud and are studied to this very day.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Sheesh Louise, how did a poll about a WN POS turn into a fight between Jewish members?

[muman613]

Sheesh Louise, how did a poll about a WN POS turn into a fight between Jewish members?

Well, one things leads to another... And I don't really consider it a 'fight', just a disagreement on issues. As an article I posted stated, Jews have a long tradition of arguing...

It started because of the member in questions nic 'A Blue Thread' which led to a question of whether we have the blue dye needed to fulfill this command.. Which led to, which led to...

[serbian army]

Samuel Hirszenberg, The Black Banner

This is the reason we must support the rights of Jews to live in their homeland Israel with its capital Jerusalem.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

So, was the faggot banned?

[TruthSpreader]

So, was the faggot banned?

He probably was either that or he left on his own.

[angryChineseKahanist]

So, was the faggot banned?

The guy who has a family of Rear Admirals?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The guy who has a family of Rear Admirals?

Yes.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

A short article on why the Second Temple was destroyed:


http://www.tfdixie.com/parshat/devarim/042.htm

Many of us are familiar with the expression, "sinat chinam baseless hatred." The Talmud (Tractate Yoma) tells us that sinat chinam destroyed the Second Temple. It was, in effect, worse than the three cardinal sins of idolatry, immorality, and bloodshed which destroyed the First Temple. After all, we rebuilt the First Temple after just 70 years; we are still waiting to rebuild the second, 1,930 years after its fall.

Just what is sinat chinam, after all? I know that we cavalierly call it "baseless hatred," but that definition has always bothered me. Have you ever encountered someone who hated another person for no reason at all? Our reasons may be petty or trivial "he snubbed me; she’s too pretty, he parts his hair on the wrong side, etc." However, we always have some justification for our hatred, sensical or non.

I would suggest two interpretations of sinat chinam. The first relates to the well-known story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza. It was Kamtza who was invited to a gala banquet; but by mistake the host’s enemy Bar Kamtza was brought. No amount of pleading helped; even Bar Kamtza’s offer to pay for the entire banquet was rejected by the stubborn host. Bar Kamtza was humiliated and evicted from the hall, in full view of seemingly complacent and uncaring rabbinical leaders. Bar Kamtza’s revenge led to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now, "Kamtza" means "cheapskate" or "stingy." There is an obvious play on words at work here. Though stingy by nature, this uninvited guest was willing to pay and pay dearly in order not to be embarrassed publicly, and to be able to stay at the banquet. The host, who would have ended up throwing this magnificent party at no cost to himself, instead chose to make a spectacle of his adversary by throwing him out.

The sinah (hatred) in this case was truly worthless. It generated no profit, it brought in no revenue whatsoever. The love that might have been shown would not only have soothed hurt feelings, it would have earned the host a pretty penny. Still, hate prevailed. When "worthless" hate outweighs "valuable" love, then we have really reached rock bottom.

One more thought on the subject: The words, "sinat chinam" literally mean "the hate of their cheyn." Cheyn is a hard word to translate, but essentially it means grace, likeability, charm. It is the unique quality which every person possesses in different measure, that which makes us special, and validates our presence in the world. Sinat chinam is the denial of another’s right to exist, the belief that he or she contributes nothing valuable to this earth. That attitude is an affront not only to the other person, but also to Hashem who made that individual. The antidote to sinat chinam, then, is not "free love," but rather the respect of every other person’s unique place in Hashem’s universe. May we see the fast of this Tishah B’Av become the joy of the complete redemption.

 The whole story is interpreted incorrectly. Today the true heroes are blamed while the Rasha Bar Kamtza is in affect pitied. Yett another problem in outlook. Earlier generations and the Gemarrah itself shows and says who the real villian was. It was KBK. First the Hachamim ( I believe the Hattam Sofer) points out that he wasn't invited because he was a traitor. Literally. After the mix up he was correctly thrown out of the party because it included all the important people and the Hachamim who were working to overthrow the evil kingdom (Romans) from Israel. Knowing that this traitor being amoung them would cause him to snitch they didn't protest his rightful removal. Then his actions again proved what a low life he was in that he instigated the Romans against Jews just because he was thrown out. Then when the case came to *Rabbi Zechariah son of Avkulos he had the choice in executing him but instead did not do soo because of heavy deliberation. He should have killed him, because he did not that traitor later caused all that trouble and brought calamity. And that is how the Gemarah says it, who is to blame? Bar Kamtza for being a traitor and Rabban Gamliel for not making a decision when it was necessary (in killing him and getting ride of the threat). In today's upside down world who is blamed instead? The Hachamim who did not tolerate the traitor. Get the gist?