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What is the real identity of the Pedofronter "A Blue Thread"?

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2013, 10:56:04 PM »
http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Sinath%20Hinam-Hurban-Yoma9b-Rambam.mp3

 
Was the Temple Destroyed Because of Hatred?   PDF   Print   E-mail
WRITTEN BY DAVID S.   
WEDNESDAY, 22 JULY 2009 21:41
Some claim that it was, and that the way to rebuild it is to study the Halakhoth of Lashon HaRa.  This approach is spurious. What else did Hazal say about the reasons for the Temple's destruction?

Why don't we have the Temple today? Could the fact that we have not built it have something to do with it?

Download the Shiur
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2013, 11:13:52 PM »
I will investigate the findings of the sages who are leaders of the generation and put my faith in the majority decision.

 Their is no majority vs. minority nowadays. Also who and how do you define a "Hacham" and who is not? The Talmudh is binding and the Oral Torah of the Sanhedrin and not necessarily anyone today with the title of "Rabbi" or "Gadol" The whole "Gadol" buisness is relatively very new and the Haredim themselves change their definition on who is and who is not a Gadol. Of they think someone is a "Tzioni" then they are an Am Haaress. If they see they change their view then he all of a sudden becomes a "Gadol" (case in point Rav Elyashiv). On the other hand one is a "Gadol" and then he supported Nahal Haredi soo now he is an "Am Haaretz" and his car was bombed + places canceled his speeches (ex- Rav Steinman). Soo who do you define as a "Gadol" and who is not?

 No majority vs. minority today, only by proof of the Gemarah is valid even is its only 1 person. Had you really followed that "system" you wouldn't or shouldn't have anything to do with KACH and Rav Kahane because he too was accused of not having the support of the "Gdolim" therefore not correct. You agree with that?

http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/06/who-is-gadol-and-how-to-choose-rabbi.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2013, 11:16:16 PM »
Who is a Gadol, and How To Choose a Rabbi
(Pictured: Rabbi Meir Kahane z"tl h"yd)

Who is a Gadol, and How To Choose a Rabbi

by Rav Binyamin Zev Kahane, z"tl

One of the questions we are often asked is, "If you are so right, why don't the great rabbis agree with you?" Rabbi Kahane himself was approached with questions of this sort for years, as he stood alone proclaiming what he knew to be the Torah truth.

Many of our ideological opponents who use the argument that "the rabbis don't agree with you", (and therefore, we must be wrong.) often base themselves on the verse in our parsha, "and you shall observe to do according to all that they inform thee; ..thou shalt not deviate from the sentence which they shall tell thee, to the right hand, or to the left". From this, they claim, one must listen to the "gedole HaDor" -- the great rabbis of the generation.

No More Sanhedrin

First of all, certain concepts must be made clear so that the confusion surrounding this subject doesn't confuse us, too. The above verse is, unfortunately, no longer relevant for today, because it is talking about the Sanhedrin. This is explicitly pointed out a few verses beforehand, where it says, "you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord thy God shall choose.." -- that is, to the place where the Sanhedrin sat. This means that the moment a Sanhedrin is established (may it happen speedily in our days), there is an obligation upon each and every one of us to obey their halachic decisions. All those who differ, whether it be a famous Rosh Yeshiva or Admoor, will be forced to accept the decision of the Sanhedrin.

But until that time comes, the verse, "you shall observe to do according to all that they inform thee" has no practical halachic application for us.

There are No "Gedolim" If this is so, the crucial question is: Who do we listen to? Is there no da'at Torah (Torah view) today? Of course there is! But it is the task of every God-fearing Jew to seek out what the Torah view is, and find a rabbi who goes on the path of Torah truth, clinging to him as long as his rabbi remains on that path. What about the "gedolim"? We ask you: Who are the "gedolim"? Is it Rav X or Rabbi Y? Is it the known Torah genius, or perhaps his rival, no less the Torah genius, who so vastly differs with him?

Let's be honest. No one just accepts the opinion of the "gedolim". In reality, one fellow sees this particular rabbi as a Torah "gadol", and follows him; another fellow holds by another rabbi, and even if a hundred great rabbis line up against his rav, he will follow his rav through thick and thin.

Don't Forget The Fear Factor

Rabbi Kahane was endowed with the trait of emet - - truth. He was a Torah scholar who clung to truth without allowing emotions or other subjective factors affect his thinking. This is why we continue in his path - - whether it is accepted by the "gedolim" or not. The truth is, that privately, behind closed doors, many rabbis agreed with him, encouraging him to continue, but were afraid to admit so in public.

Rebbe? Gadol? The key ingredient must be: truth, with no fear. And this was the dominant characteristic of Rabbi Meir Kahane, z"tl.

(written by Rav Binyamin Kahane in 1991, shortly after the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane)

http://kahane.blogspot.com/2007/06/who-is-gadol-and-how-to-choose-rabbi.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2013, 12:01:38 AM »

There are many things which need to be done and yet nobody is doing it because we cannot do so today (rebuilding the Temple, aguna problem, etc.) . Go ahead and try if you would like, I am not stopping you. But I doubt you will have more success than others who have tried.

 WRONG. Many of these issues are resolvable. The Halacha tells us how to resolve them. Their isn't a WILLINGNESS like I mentioned earlier that is stoping a lot of these things and causing problems where they could and should be resolved.

 1) We can rebuild the Holy Temple I know it would be a process and politics involved as well, but at the very least anyone calling themselves a Religious Jew at the very least should be raising this issue. Image every Religious party for starters start demanding this. How many coalitions would it take until they would need to be included and have this demand meet? Never mind the fact that had it been more publicized even many "non-Religious" Jews would demand it as well and at least more of the awareness would be available and the demand growing and growing. Instead it is shrugged away as if not important, after all it isn't mentioned in the Shulhan Aruch therefore these 2/3rds of the Torah in effect almost doesn't exist! After all we should expect the Temple to fall from the sky, as some propose and speak of (and this is no joke).

 2)  Agunot problems can easily be to a very large extent resolved. The Hachamim had the correct system. A women comes to make a divorce, the man refuses they make a (short usually 1 month) trial period where they try to see if the issues can be resolved. If they are not resolved the man has a Misswah and obligation to give his wife a GET. He gives it willingly, all and well they get on with their lives. He does not give it willingly he is to be whipped until he gives it up. Plain and simple. If this is too "primitive" and officially cannot be done because of gov. reasons, the contract can easily be written up in a way that would cause financial loss for every day that he delays in giving her the GET (for example $1,000 per day every day after the day he was supposed to give it to her) and other similar things which can be written up before. The purpose of the GET was always for the protection of the women, NOT to cause a situation where some evildoers can and do take advantage and the best answer that some of today's people tell her to give him $ in order for him to give her the GET.
( VERY WRONG ATTITUDE, showing you how we SHOULD NOT take on this issue and showing you the wrong attitude)

youtube.com/watch?v=1aP05Ngoktw&feature=share&list=PLFAC2EE51747C19BB

 3) Same attitude of those who said "resettling Israel, go ahead try, it will never happen until Moshiah comes". You are wasting your time, you are putting yourself and others in danger by provoking the nations" and other similar things. These were precisely the people who many times got others murdered in Europe instead. Same attitude.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 12:11:55 AM by Tag-MehirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2013, 12:23:03 AM »
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,56681.msg548355.html#msg548355

 Last year, relevant to now as well on Kamtza Bar Kamtza
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2013, 12:34:59 AM »
We were all taught from a young age that it was ?needless hatred? and infighting among Jews that caused the destruction of the holy Temple in Jerusalem and the Exile of Jews from Eretz Israel, close to 2000 years ago. This Tisha B?Av, once again, in synagogues and Yeshivot around the world, thousands of Jews will relearn the story of ?Kamtza Bar Kamtza? (Kamtza son of Kamtza) which is brought down in the Talmud (Gittin 55b). The story, as it has been taught to most of us for generations, supposedly reflects yet another case of baseless infighting and needless hatred between Jews. It is the moral of this Talmudic source which has been used to prove ?that we must all get along and be tolerant and hospitable, EVEN TO THE WICKED, lest we bring about further punishment and decrees upon ourselves and the nation of Israel.? Is this the correct conclusion to be reached from the story of Kamtza? Is this the true moral of the story of Kamtza? What really triggered the destruction of Jerusalem?

The story:

The Talmud tells us of a man in Jerusalem who hosted a lavish meal, and who sent his servant to invite his friend ?Kamtza?. The servant made the mistake of inviting the host?s enemy, who shared a similar name, ?Kamtza bar Kamtza? (Kamtza son of Kamtza, some such as the Mahrsha say that Kamtza bar kamtza was in fact the actual son of the Kamtza who was supposed to be invited). When the host recognized his enemy Kamtza bar Kamtza sitting at his table, he asked him to leave. Bar Kamtza, attempted to persuade the host not to embarrass him and to permit him to remain, being as he was already there. Kamtza beseeched his host to permit him to pay for his meal and to remain. The host refused. A desperate Bar Kamtza agreed to cover the costs of half of the entire affair. His pleadings were to no avail. The host again refused Bar Kamtza?s request. Bar Kamtza tried one last proposal: ?If you allow me to stay, I will pay for the entire banquet.? The host remained adamant in his refusal, and forcibly removed Bar Kamtza. Bar Kamtza left, but not before warning: ?Since the Rabbis were present and they did not protest, it is apparent that they are pleased with the behavior of the host of this banquet. I shall go and inform against the Jews to the authorities??

The Gemara continues: He went to the ?Caesar? (some say the local Roman Governor) and told him, ?The Jews have rebelled?. The ?Caesar? responded: ?Who shall prove this?? Bar Kamtza responded: Send them an animal to be sacrificed and you shall see if they will sacrifice it. He sent them a baby calf. Bar Kamtza inflicted a blemish in the lips of the calf, some say in its eye or eyelid ?something which is considered a blemish according to Jewish law but not so by the gentiles. The Rabbis considered sacrificing the calf, out of fear of the authorities, to maintain peace with the government. Rabbi Zecharia ben Ovkalus objected, stating that the Rabbis must not violate the halacha, lest people learn from their behavior that it is permissible to sacrifice an animal with a blemish. The Rabbis considered killing Bar Kamtza to prevent him from fulfilling his threat to inform on the Jews. Once again Rabbi Zecharia ben Ovkalus objected, stating that if Kamtza is killed people will think that the death penalty is the punishment for bringing a sacrifice that has a blemish. Rabbi Yochanan said, ?the humble behavior of  Rabbi Zecharia ben Ivkalus destroyed our House and burned our sanctuary and Exiled us from our land.?

On face value, this story is testimony to yet another tragedy that represents the baseless rampant hatred amongst Jews that was so prevalent throughout that era. The way the story has been told to most of us, it is hard not to feel sorry for ?poor Kamtza? who was thrown out of the party after he was brutally insulted, and for no apparent justifiable reason. However,  after a closer look at the incident, and at the commentaries, we come up with a very different picture. ?Poor Kamtza? is an informant a ?malshin? a ?moser? who committed one of the most severe national crimes. Regardless of his motives, he committed a horrible crime without any justification.

The key to the story revolves around the fact that Kamtza did not suddenly become a bad guy and an informant. Kamtza was an evil traitor far before this incident ever unfolded. This is the reason that he was not invited in the first place and this is why the Rabbis were silent when he was ejected from the banquet. The Chatam Sofer explains that Kamtza was always evil and that this is why he was not welcome at the affair. The Eitz Yosef on the Ein Yaakov explains that the Rabbis were not frightened of Kamtza and this is why they embarrassed him, because he was already a known informant. And so states the Mahral as well. The fact that he informed on the Jews as a result of a personal insult,  further proves the point.

Thus, it was not the cruel and embarrassing treatment against Kamtza that brought about Jerusalem?s destruction. And it was not the silence of the Rabbis who permitted Kamtza to be shamed that caused the destruction, but rather the evil behavior of Kamtza and the lack of response to neutralize Kamtza, when he posed a threat to Jewish survival, that brought about the destruction of Jerusalem. And as it is said, ?because of Kamtza bar Kamtza the temple was destroyed?. We do not say ?because of the host, the temple was destroyed.? The conclusion of the story goes one step further and also holds Rabbi Ovkalus accountable for the destruction of Jerusalem ? because of his excessive humility in the face of the threat posed by the wicked Kamtza, or in the words of the Meiri: ?And we learn from this that one who brings about a threat of destruction upon Jews by the authorities, could be killed.? And Rashi explains Rav Zecharya ben Ovkalus? crime of misplaced humility, ?his humbleness ? that he (Rabbi Zecharya ben Ovkalus) tolerated Kamtza?s behavior and did not kill him.? In other words the lack of bloodshed against the wicked caused the destruction of Jerusalem and not as we have often been misled to believe - that the embarrassing of the wicked Kamtza was the cause.

Yes, baseless hatred of Jews is forbidden and brings about national destruction - Yes, baseless hatred such as the hatred betrayed by Kamtza against his fellow Jews. However, tolerance of such evil is the real trigger that caused the destruction of Jerusalem. The hatred of Jews which is forbidden by the Rabbis and which causes destruction is the baseless hatred displayed by the wicked Kamtzas. The only way to save Israel from destruction is by fighting against the Kamtzas without hesitation and without misplaced mercy and misplaced humility. I think that this is the exact opposite lesson from the one most of us have been taught for so many years. This is a vital topic to study as we approach the building of the Third Temple, G-d willing, in our days. Let it be known that tolerance and mercy upon the wicked will only postpone our redemption and prolong our bitter Exile.

(Most of the article was based upon partial excerpts from an article written in Hebrew by David Cohen
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2013, 01:03:15 AM »
The reason I guessed Karaite is because A Blue Thread is a Karaite blog (I didn't say you were necessarily the owner), but you also have a Karaite tzitzit on your profile pic.  Karaites are the only ones that use blue threads in their tzitziot. 
  That's not true at all.  But you yourself admit it's not true with your next statement:
Quote
There are a very few Orthodox who do,

Quote
but I doubt you are one of them because Orthodox would definitely be concerned with proper conversions. 

Clearly.

Quote

  Normal Orthodox Jews only wear white tzitziot because the proper blue dye (techelet) is not produced currently.

This is a matter of dispute, so why do you call those who were only white as "Normal orthodox Jews?"  And those who wear techeilet are not normal?    That's very biased on your part and very wrong.    I have seen many people wearing them.  They are usually in the minority but I've seen it in different types of shuls, and different types of Jews.   
Btw, are you aware that Rav Belsky wears techelet?  Well, he does.

What you have said about proper techelet not being produced currently is incorrect IMO, but at very least, the subject of a dispute.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2013, 01:05:26 AM »
I know this, that was going to be my point, since we need a Sanhedrin to return to the 1-day celebrations, we will need a Sanhedrin to officially authenticate the use of techelet.

That logic doesn't follow.   One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2013, 01:08:11 AM »
Sheesh. You guys do not quit. This is getting preposterous. Why are good Jewish and Noahide members tearing each other a new one over such minutiae? Does this look good to the public?

Is it really that hard for us to unite against a WN pedophile sodomite troll? Sheesh Louise.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2013, 01:10:45 AM »

 The whole story is interpreted incorrectly. Today the true heroes are blamed while the Rasha Bar Kamtza is in affect pitied. Yett another problem in outlook. Earlier generations and the Gemarrah itself shows and says who the real villian was. It was KBK. First the Hachamim ( I believe the Hattam Sofer) points out that he wasn't invited because he was a traitor. Literally. After the mix up he was correctly thrown out of the party because it included all the important people and the Hachamim who were working to overthrow the evil kingdom (Romans) from Israel. Knowing that this traitor being amoung them would cause him to snitch they didn't protest his rightful removal. Then his actions again proved what a low life he was in that he instigated the Romans against Jews just because he was thrown out. Then when the case came to *Rabbi Zechariah son of Avkulos he had the choice in executing him but instead did not do soo because of heavy deliberation. He should have killed him, because he did not that traitor later caused all that trouble and brought calamity. And that is how the Gemarah says it, who is to blame? Bar Kamtza for being a traitor and Rabban Gamliel for not making a decision when it was necessary (in killing him and getting ride of the threat). In today's upside down world who is blamed instead? The Hachamim who did not tolerate the traitor. Get the gist?

Wow.  I didn't even realize this.   Thank you for writing this out, I never looked deeply enough into this story apparently.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2013, 01:15:13 AM »
Sheesh. You guys do not quit. This is getting preposterous. Why are good Jewish and Noahide members tearing each other a new one over such minutiae? 

It's an explicit commandment in the Torah to wear a blue string within the fringes.   How can it be called "minutiae?"   

When someone slanders good Jews for no apparent reason, it is impossible for no one on the forum to take issue with that.


Quote
Does this look good to the public? 

I don't know, does it look good to the public to call Orthodox Jews wearing techelet as "abnormal?"  Or, perhaps more importantly, does that look good to God?

Quote
Is it really that hard for us to unite against a WN pedophile sodomite troll? Sheesh Louise.

Obviously our discussions now have nothing to do with the troll.   Why must the thread continue to focus on him?  He already left.
There is nothing wrong with arguing.  If only certain participants would keep it from becoming personal.  But yet certain people on the forum take the opinions of others as an "attack" for some reason and then respond viscerally.  I still don't understand why.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2013, 01:17:02 AM »
Shabbat Shalom, everyone ~

As it seems I am not welcome here and my presence is distressing to many of you, I will make this my final post here and continue my search for a more open community. I am dismayed that I caused so much of a firestorm here by posting my thoughts; it was not my intention to do so. I should have spent more time researching what type of forum this is before I joined; I take responsibility for that mistake.

As for my being Jewish, I can't make any of you believe what you don't want to believe- nor should I have to. As I noted in a previous post, I was not born into Judaism- I chose it- and doing so this late in life leaves me at a disadvantage among those who have lived their whole lives immersed in the faith. There is much I still have to learn- even the most thorough conversion program can't produce someone who knows everything at the drop of a hat on Day 1. Apparently even a lifetime isn't long enough to learn everything, so why should anyone be singled out for not surpassing the best scholars? In any case, so much for welcoming converts into the community.

In closing I wish all of you all the best, and I hope that if at some point our paths cross again either in person or online it's a happier experience than this has been for me. Good afternoon, and a Good Shabbat to all.

-----

ABT

Quit making yourself into a victim.   You were criticized here for your support of nazi attacks on Yesha Jews.  NOT for your lack of scholarship.   

Offline muman613

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2013, 01:25:30 AM »
Shavuot Tov,

I have a lot of responses to Tag concerning his information he posted. Indeed what he says is true but in a way he is misrepresenting what it taught by most of the Rabbis, at least those who I study and listen to. Nobody ever has taught that Bar Kamza was a good guy, nor that the host of the party was incorrect in kicking Bar Kamza out. I have not heard this, although I admit it may be possible that some reform or conservative Rabbi may try to present it that way. But while it is true that Bar Kamza was an informant, this is only because of a trait which had become endemic in Klal Yisrael. This incident was one example which the Talmud gives, along with the story of the zealots who burned down the food storage buildings.

Sinat Chinam is baseless hatred between Jews, and it is the reason which the Talmud gives for the destruction. If the people of Israel had been more concerned with keeping the command of Ahavat Yisrael maybe a Bar Kamza would not have existed. Nobody I know makes excuses for Bar Kamza, and it is shocking to me to suggest that Orthodox Rabbis would misrepresent this story. I know my Rabbi has told the story with the explanation that it was a larger problem between Jews which led to the incident of Kamza and Bar Kamza.

I will attempt to address Tags points, which are all true, tomorrow morning...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2013, 01:29:55 AM »
I am sorry to be 'off topic' WFTMPTC but we are just discussing the topic of the destruction of the Temple which we have been mourning the last three weeks...

Quote
When Jerusalem Burned
by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin


http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/274,2145951/When-Jerusalem-Burned.html#articlepage

At the beginning of the Common Era, a new group arose among the Jews: the Zealots (in Hebrew, Ka-na-im). These anti-Roman rebels were active for more than six decades, and later instigated the Great Revolt. Their most basic belief was that all means were justified to attain political and religious liberty.

The Jews' anti-Roman feelings were seriously exacerbated during the reign of the half-crazed emperor Caligula who, in the year 39, declared himself to be a deity and ordered his statue to be set up at every Temple in the Roman Empire. The Jews, alone in the empire, refused the command; they would not defile G-d's Temple with a statue of pagan Rome's newest deity.

Caligula threatened to destroy the Temple, so a delegation of Jews was sent to pacify him. To no avail. Caligula raged at them, "So you are the enemies of the gods, the only people who refuse to recognize my divinity." Only the emperor's sudden, and violent death saved the Jews from wholesale massacre.

The combination of financial exploitation, Rome's unbridled contempt for Judaism, and the unabashed favoritism that the Romans extended to gentiles living in Israel brought about the revolt

Caligula's action radicalized even the more moderate Jews. What assurance did they have, after all, that another Roman ruler would not arise and try to defile the Temple or destroy Judaism altogether? In addition, Caligula's sudden demise might have been interpreted as confirming the Zealots' belief that G-d would fight alongside the Jews if only they would have the courage to confront Rome.

In the decades after Caligula's death, Jews found their religion subject to periodic gross indignities, Roman soldiers exposing themselves in the Temple on one occasion and burning a Torah scroll on another.

Ultimately, the combination of financial exploitation, Rome's unbridled contempt for Judaism, and the unabashed favoritism that the Romans extended to gentiles living in Israel brought about the revolt.

In the year 66, Florus, the last Roman procurator, stole vast quantities of silver from the Temple. The outraged Jewish masses rioted and wiped out the small Roman garrison stationed in Jerusalem. Cestius Gallus, the Roman ruler in neighboring Syria, sent in a larger force of soldiers. But the Jewish insurgents routed them as well.

This was a heartening victory that had a terrible consequence: Many Jews suddenly became convinced that they could defeat Rome, and the Zealots' ranks grew geometrically. Never again, however, did the Jews achieve so decisive a victory.

When the Romans returned, they had 60,000 heavily armed and highly professional troops. They launched their first attack against the Jewish state's most radicalized area, the Galilee in the north. The Romans vanquished the Galilee, and an estimated 100,000 Jews were killed or sold into slavery.

Throughout the Roman conquest of this territory, the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem did almost nothing to help their beleaguered brothers. They apparently had concluded - too late, unfortunately - that the revolt could not be won, and wanted to hold down Jewish deaths as much as possible.

The highly embittered refugees who succeeded in escaping the Galilean massacres fled to the last major Jewish stronghold - Jerusalem.

The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure and the Temple's destruction were due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Talmud, Yoma 9b). Though the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted.

Many Jews suddenly became convinced that they could defeat Rome, and the Zealots' ranks grew geometrically. Never again, however, did the Jews achieve so decisive a victory

We do know that some great figures of ancient Israel opposed the revolt, most notably Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai. Since the Zealot leaders ordered the execution of anyone advocating surrender to Rome, Rabbi Yochanan arranged for his disciples to smuggle him out of Jerusalem, disguised as a corpse. Once safe, he met the Roman general Vespasian, who granted him concessions that allowed Jewish communal life to continue.

During the summer of 70, the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem and initiated an orgy of violence and destruction. Shortly thereafter, they destroyed the Second Temple. This was the final and most devastating Roman blow against Judea.

It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. Indeed, the Great Revolt of 66-70, and the Bar-Kokhba revolt some sixty years later, were the greatest calamities in Jewish history prior to the Holocaust. In addition to more that one million Jews killed, these failed rebellions led to the total loss of Jewish political authority in Israel until 1948. This loss in itself exacerbated the magnitude of later Jewish catastrophes, since it precluded Israel from being used as a refuge for the large numbers of Jews fleeing persecutions elsewhere.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2013, 01:40:46 AM »
Can someone be an erev rav and then stop being an erev rav but then become an erev rav again?
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Offline muman613

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2013, 01:43:15 AM »
Can someone be an erev rav and then stop being an erev rav but then become an erev rav again?

According to my understanding Erev Rav is not a state of being a Jew, it is a descendant of the non-Jews who left Egypt with the Jewish people. So no, I don't think a person who is an Erev Rav can ever be anything but an Erev Rav. These people kept the idolatry of their parents even as they left Egypt, and they were the ones who inspired the building of the Golden Calf.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2013, 01:45:42 AM »
LKZ, you may find this discussion of the Erev Rav enlightening...



Parshas Ki Sisa - Parah

God told Moshe, "Go down. Your people which you brought out of Egypt have corrupted themselves." (Shemos 32:7)

Ah, the Erev Rav, where would the world have been without them? Where would the world be without them today? In Yemos HaMoshiach, that's where. All that went wrong for the Jewish people in the desert was instigated by the Mixed Multitude, just as God had forewarned Moshe Rabbeinu back in Egypt, on the way out.

And now, in this week's parshah, their coupe de grace: the golden calf. Had it not been for the Erev Rav, the Jewish people would have waited peacefully at the foot of the mountain in their camp below for Moshe Rabbeinu to return with the Word of God. Maybe they would have asked, "What's taking him so long?" and been a bit concerned.

But, they certainly would not have responded with idol worship and licentious behavior. Only the Erev Rav, as intelligent as some of them may have been at the time, could do something so dumb at Mt. Sinai. It is always amazing how a bad trait can lay waste to intelligence, even use it to engineer one's own destruction. We're watching the very same thing happen today as well.

Interestingly enough, another name for the Erev Rav was "HaAm," or "the people," as noted above. In fact, Chazal say that every time the Torah refers only to HaAm, which, on a simple level, can apply to the Jewish people as well, it is really a direct reference to the Erev Rav themselves. Hence, when the verse says:

After Pharaoh sent the people away. God did not lead them through the land of the Philistines . (Shemos 13:17)
the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh says that it refers to the Erev Rav, whom Pharaoh sent along with the Jewish people to cause precisely the kind of trouble they cause in this week's parshah.

Of all the nicknames to give to a troublesome people, HaAm is not so bad. At least, that is what one might think at first, until one considers that they are not supposed to be an "um," that is, a separate nation. They were Egyptians who, because of the Bris Milah Yosef, as Viceroy, had the Egyptians perform to get grain during the famine, became converts to the way of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'akov. By the time they left Egypt, there should have been no trace of a different origin.

In other words, the name HaAm was a way of denoting the lack of integration into the Jewish people by these Egyptian converts, evidenced by how quickly they reverted to Egyptian ways in this week's parshah. And, having not fully integrated into the Jewish people meant, means, that the conversion process was not complete on all levels, and therefore, that they remained a divisive force within Klal Yisroel.

In other words, in this case, HaAm is not compliment, but an indication of the Erev Rav's propensity to be divisive. If k'ish echad b'leiv echad1 describes the ultimate state of Jewish unification, HaAm, in reference to the Erev Rav, alludes to just the opposite. And, it has been by sowing disunity amongst Jews that the Erev Rav has been most successful in keeping us from fulfilling the ultimate dreams of our nation.

And, make no mistake about it: the Erev Rav comes in various different forms and types of people. In fact, the Zohar discusses in great detail five different categories of Erev Rav (Bereishis 25a), and all of them can have an application in every kind of Jewish community you can think of. And, as different as one group might be from the other, they all have one thing in common: they put themselves before the nation.

Therefore, says the Zohar, they can give charity, lots of it, even build synagogues and Torah study houses, but to act as base for their name plaque. Secondary to the good name they will receive for being so philanthropic is the good their actual contribution will do for the people for whom it is intended.

Or, they can take an activist role on behalf of some cause, or even specifically, a Jewish cause. But, if you truly analyze what they are doing, no matter how well-intentioned they make themselves appear on the surface, it is their personal mandate that they attempt to fulfill, not the national one of the Jewish people. Indeed, as they work on behalf of the Jewish people they in fact work against the Jewish people, often using their money and political clout to force their ways and means.

If they had their own flag, the golden calf would be their emblem in its middle. And, just as Amalek was the antithesis of Moshe Rabbeinu, the Erev Rav is just a derivation of that very antithesis. The trait of Moshe Rabbeinu was Netzach, which meant that everything he did was for the sake of Eternity. The Erev Rav simply lived for today, investing all of their energy in the physical pleasure of the moment.

The golden calf embodied this approach to life. A calf represents playful youthfulness, and gold represents longevity. In short, the golden calf represented man's desire to never grow up and take responsibility for himself and the world, so that he can party round the clock. And, when Moshe Rabbeinu came back down the mountain in this week's parshah caring the antidote for such a lifestyle, that's exactly what he found going on in the camp below: a wild party.

This week is also Parashas Parah, so the maftir jumps to Parashas Chukas, where we find the laws concerning the procedure of the Red Heifer, necessary for a person who has become defiled by contact with a dead body, or implements that have. We read it now because of the closeness of Pesach, but its juxtaposition with the reading of the sin of the golden calf couldn't have been better timed, for like Moshe Rabbeinu himself, it is the antithesis of the Erev Rav and all that they stand for.

First of all, it is red, and not gold. If gold represents longevity, then red, the color of blood, represents human vulnerability and frailty. If a calf represents wistful youthfulness, then a heifer represents responsible adulthood, the ability to wear a yoke and to channel energy in a meaningful and productive manner. If the golden calf represents eternal youth, but really results in early death, the Red Heifer looked like death, but actually resulted in a return to life.

Hence, the Red Heifer and the golden calf represent two extremes on a single continuum, and therefore, the ongoing challenge of the Jew, indeed of all mankind. We are caught in an ongoing internal battle between the drive for immediate pleasure and satisfaction, and long term gain. It is a battle that not only defines us as individuals, but as a nation as a whole:

[edit]

In other words, Israelis, at least the traditional ones, feel a sense of eternity, and its has to affect their way of thinking, and therefore, their way of acting. The ones who have lost this sense of eternity, and many already have, have done two things: they have given up on the future and turned to extremely temporal pleasures. In short, they have adopted the life of the Erev Rav and have become, hopefully only temporarily, like them.

Not just in Eretz Yisroel, obviously. One can travel to just about any country Jews are found in the world today, which, amazingly, is almost every place people can be found today, and find Jews pursuing the golden calf way of life. To the extent that they ignore the eternal reality of the Jewish people is the extent to which they follow the ways of the Erev Rav. And, today, you can be religious as well and fall into the same trap.

Indeed, there ought to be an Erev Rav-golden calf thermometer. I'm not quite sure how it would work, but somehow it would look at a Jew's life, and determine how much the person leans in one direction or the other, either in the direction of the golden calf, or that of the Red Heifer. It would measure how real a person is with eternal life, as projected by his or her approach to the material world.

This message comes right in advance of Pesach because this is really what Pesach is all about. As we move away from chometz, the symbol of which is bread, in the direction of matzah, plain flour and water, we shed more than pounds. We leave behind an attachment to the golden (calf) way of life, a branch of Egyptian life.

That's why they built it in the first place. For, you can take the Erev Rav out of Egypt, but apparently, it is far harder to take the Egypt out of the Erev Rav, and the golden calf was their way of making the Jewish camp their home away from home, that is, their Egypt away from Egypt. Unfortunately, less that 100 days out of Mitzrayim, those Jews still suffering from the Mitzrayim Syndrome got pulled into the spiritual abyss, like errant dust into an industrial strength vacuum cleaner.

Interesting how some knowing Jews today refer to America, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as the "Golden Medinah," or, "The Golden Country." For, it has been, for decades, the place of great opportunity, especially for the Jewish people, a place where almost everything we have touched has turned to gold. The last time this many Jews were this wealthy was when the gold and silver of the Egyptian army washed ashore after they drowned in the Red Sea.

In some respects, it has served us well. It allowed us to rebuild the Jewish nation on American soil after the Jewish nation was wiped away from European soil. And, quite clearly, it helped pave the way for the Final Redemption, as countless Jews invested untold sums of wealth into the development of Eretz Yisroel, including the construction of many wonderful Torah institutions.

However, the same cannot be said about everyone who struck it rich in America. Some use their wealth, not to strengthen the Jewish people against the pitfalls of the golden calf lifestyle, but to encourage it. Some, as mentioned before, even use their financial clout, in the name of helping the Jewish people, to actually undermine the future of the State of Israel. They call themselves friends of the Jewish people, but then again, so did the Erev Rav.

And, before we say to ourselves with confidence, "Well, that's not me!" we should read the Zohar on the Erev Rav today. Once I did, I became very uneasy, and felt compelled to examine my lifestyle for any Erev Rav tendencies. Everyone ought to do the same thing, especially as scandals come to light from all sectors of the Jewish people.

At the very least, get back to Torah basics, and make sure that whatever you do, you do it for the right reasons, and with humility. Above all, let God be above all, meaning that you should fear no one but God Himself, and serve Him loyally. This will serve you the best of all, especially as we head into uncharted waters of history, and the world becomes less favorable to anything the Jewish people seem to do today.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2013, 02:05:07 AM »
Well i never spread disunity among Jews G-d forbid but there was this thing with five things the Erev rav do that I saw and I did all of those so I've been paranoid for a while and like wondering if I happen to be that, first of that sucks, second what are you supposed to do?

LKZ, you may find this discussion of the Erev Rav enlightening...



Parshas Ki Sisa - Parah

God told Moshe, "Go down. Your people which you brought out of Egypt have corrupted themselves." (Shemos 32:7)

Ah, the Erev Rav, where would the world have been without them? Where would the world be without them today? In Yemos HaMoshiach, that's where. All that went wrong for the Jewish people in the desert was instigated by the Mixed Multitude, just as God had forewarned Moshe Rabbeinu back in Egypt, on the way out.

And now, in this week's parshah, their coupe de grace: the golden calf. Had it not been for the Erev Rav, the Jewish people would have waited peacefully at the foot of the mountain in their camp below for Moshe Rabbeinu to return with the Word of God. Maybe they would have asked, "What's taking him so long?" and been a bit concerned.

But, they certainly would not have responded with idol worship and licentious behavior. Only the Erev Rav, as intelligent as some of them may have been at the time, could do something so dumb at Mt. Sinai. It is always amazing how a bad trait can lay waste to intelligence, even use it to engineer one's own destruction. We're watching the very same thing happen today as well.

Interestingly enough, another name for the Erev Rav was "HaAm," or "the people," as noted above. In fact, Chazal say that every time the Torah refers only to HaAm, which, on a simple level, can apply to the Jewish people as well, it is really a direct reference to the Erev Rav themselves. Hence, when the verse says:

After Pharaoh sent the people away. God did not lead them through the land of the Philistines . (Shemos 13:17)
the Ohr HaChaim HaKadosh says that it refers to the Erev Rav, whom Pharaoh sent along with the Jewish people to cause precisely the kind of trouble they cause in this week's parshah.

Of all the nicknames to give to a troublesome people, HaAm is not so bad. At least, that is what one might think at first, until one considers that they are not supposed to be an "um," that is, a separate nation. They were Egyptians who, because of the Bris Milah Yosef, as Viceroy, had the Egyptians perform to get grain during the famine, became converts to the way of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'akov. By the time they left Egypt, there should have been no trace of a different origin.

In other words, the name HaAm was a way of denoting the lack of integration into the Jewish people by these Egyptian converts, evidenced by how quickly they reverted to Egyptian ways in this week's parshah. And, having not fully integrated into the Jewish people meant, means, that the conversion process was not complete on all levels, and therefore, that they remained a divisive force within Klal Yisroel.

In other words, in this case, HaAm is not compliment, but an indication of the Erev Rav's propensity to be divisive. If k'ish echad b'leiv echad1 describes the ultimate state of Jewish unification, HaAm, in reference to the Erev Rav, alludes to just the opposite. And, it has been by sowing disunity amongst Jews that the Erev Rav has been most successful in keeping us from fulfilling the ultimate dreams of our nation.

And, make no mistake about it: the Erev Rav comes in various different forms and types of people. In fact, the Zohar discusses in great detail five different categories of Erev Rav (Bereishis 25a), and all of them can have an application in every kind of Jewish community you can think of. And, as different as one group might be from the other, they all have one thing in common: they put themselves before the nation.

Therefore, says the Zohar, they can give charity, lots of it, even build synagogues and Torah study houses, but to act as base for their name plaque. Secondary to the good name they will receive for being so philanthropic is the good their actual contribution will do for the people for whom it is intended.

Or, they can take an activist role on behalf of some cause, or even specifically, a Jewish cause. But, if you truly analyze what they are doing, no matter how well-intentioned they make themselves appear on the surface, it is their personal mandate that they attempt to fulfill, not the national one of the Jewish people. Indeed, as they work on behalf of the Jewish people they in fact work against the Jewish people, often using their money and political clout to force their ways and means.

If they had their own flag, the golden calf would be their emblem in its middle. And, just as Amalek was the antithesis of Moshe Rabbeinu, the Erev Rav is just a derivation of that very antithesis. The trait of Moshe Rabbeinu was Netzach, which meant that everything he did was for the sake of Eternity. The Erev Rav simply lived for today, investing all of their energy in the physical pleasure of the moment.

The golden calf embodied this approach to life. A calf represents playful youthfulness, and gold represents longevity. In short, the golden calf represented man's desire to never grow up and take responsibility for himself and the world, so that he can party round the clock. And, when Moshe Rabbeinu came back down the mountain in this week's parshah caring the antidote for such a lifestyle, that's exactly what he found going on in the camp below: a wild party.

This week is also Parashas Parah, so the maftir jumps to Parashas Chukas, where we find the laws concerning the procedure of the Red Heifer, necessary for a person who has become defiled by contact with a dead body, or implements that have. We read it now because of the closeness of Pesach, but its juxtaposition with the reading of the sin of the golden calf couldn't have been better timed, for like Moshe Rabbeinu himself, it is the antithesis of the Erev Rav and all that they stand for.

First of all, it is red, and not gold. If gold represents longevity, then red, the color of blood, represents human vulnerability and frailty. If a calf represents wistful youthfulness, then a heifer represents responsible adulthood, the ability to wear a yoke and to channel energy in a meaningful and productive manner. If the golden calf represents eternal youth, but really results in early death, the Red Heifer looked like death, but actually resulted in a return to life.

Hence, the Red Heifer and the golden calf represent two extremes on a single continuum, and therefore, the ongoing challenge of the Jew, indeed of all mankind. We are caught in an ongoing internal battle between the drive for immediate pleasure and satisfaction, and long term gain. It is a battle that not only defines us as individuals, but as a nation as a whole:

[edit]

In other words, Israelis, at least the traditional ones, feel a sense of eternity, and its has to affect their way of thinking, and therefore, their way of acting. The ones who have lost this sense of eternity, and many already have, have done two things: they have given up on the future and turned to extremely temporal pleasures. In short, they have adopted the life of the Erev Rav and have become, hopefully only temporarily, like them.

Not just in Eretz Yisroel, obviously. One can travel to just about any country Jews are found in the world today, which, amazingly, is almost every place people can be found today, and find Jews pursuing the golden calf way of life. To the extent that they ignore the eternal reality of the Jewish people is the extent to which they follow the ways of the Erev Rav. And, today, you can be religious as well and fall into the same trap.

Indeed, there ought to be an Erev Rav-golden calf thermometer. I'm not quite sure how it would work, but somehow it would look at a Jew's life, and determine how much the person leans in one direction or the other, either in the direction of the golden calf, or that of the Red Heifer. It would measure how real a person is with eternal life, as projected by his or her approach to the material world.

This message comes right in advance of Pesach because this is really what Pesach is all about. As we move away from chometz, the symbol of which is bread, in the direction of matzah, plain flour and water, we shed more than pounds. We leave behind an attachment to the golden (calf) way of life, a branch of Egyptian life.

That's why they built it in the first place. For, you can take the Erev Rav out of Egypt, but apparently, it is far harder to take the Egypt out of the Erev Rav, and the golden calf was their way of making the Jewish camp their home away from home, that is, their Egypt away from Egypt. Unfortunately, less that 100 days out of Mitzrayim, those Jews still suffering from the Mitzrayim Syndrome got pulled into the spiritual abyss, like errant dust into an industrial strength vacuum cleaner.

Interesting how some knowing Jews today refer to America, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as the "Golden Medinah," or, "The Golden Country." For, it has been, for decades, the place of great opportunity, especially for the Jewish people, a place where almost everything we have touched has turned to gold. The last time this many Jews were this wealthy was when the gold and silver of the Egyptian army washed ashore after they drowned in the Red Sea.

In some respects, it has served us well. It allowed us to rebuild the Jewish nation on American soil after the Jewish nation was wiped away from European soil. And, quite clearly, it helped pave the way for the Final Redemption, as countless Jews invested untold sums of wealth into the development of Eretz Yisroel, including the construction of many wonderful Torah institutions.

However, the same cannot be said about everyone who struck it rich in America. Some use their wealth, not to strengthen the Jewish people against the pitfalls of the golden calf lifestyle, but to encourage it. Some, as mentioned before, even use their financial clout, in the name of helping the Jewish people, to actually undermine the future of the State of Israel. They call themselves friends of the Jewish people, but then again, so did the Erev Rav.

And, before we say to ourselves with confidence, "Well, that's not me!" we should read the Zohar on the Erev Rav today. Once I did, I became very uneasy, and felt compelled to examine my lifestyle for any Erev Rav tendencies. Everyone ought to do the same thing, especially as scandals come to light from all sectors of the Jewish people.

At the very least, get back to Torah basics, and make sure that whatever you do, you do it for the right reasons, and with humility. Above all, let God be above all, meaning that you should fear no one but God Himself, and serve Him loyally. This will serve you the best of all, especially as we head into uncharted waters of history, and the world becomes less favorable to anything the Jewish people seem to do today.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2013, 09:44:34 AM »
Shavuot Tov,

I have a lot of responses to Tag concerning his information he posted. Indeed what he says is true but in a way he is misrepresenting what it taught by most of the Rabbis, at least those who I study and listen to. Nobody ever has taught that Bar Kamza was a good guy, nor that the host of the party was incorrect in kicking Bar Kamza out. I have not heard this, although I admit it may be possible that some reform or conservative Rabbi may try to present it that way. But while it is true that Bar Kamza was an informant, this is only because of a trait which had become endemic in Klal Yisrael. This incident was one example which the Talmud gives, along with the story of the zealots who burned down the food storage buildings.

Sinat Chinam is baseless hatred between Jews, and it is the reason which the Talmud gives for the destruction. If the people of Israel had been more concerned with keeping the command of Ahavat Yisrael maybe a Bar Kamza would not have existed. Nobody I know makes excuses for Bar Kamza, and it is shocking to me to suggest that Orthodox Rabbis would misrepresent this story. I know my Rabbi has told the story with the explanation that it was a larger problem between Jews which led to the incident of Kamza and Bar Kamza.

I will attempt to address Tags points, which are all true, tomorrow morning...


    It is many times implicit and explicit that KBK was a poor fellow who just wanted to stay in the party and was willing even to pay for his meal and for others, BUT because of "baseless hatred" the host threw him out. The Important Rabbis didn't protest therefor they are to be blamed. Bro who are you kidding me, I can link you to shiurim where they bring that story line, I wont single anyone out particularly but since now is the time and you would probably be listening to shiurim by them I can bet you will hear it yourself. Just go listen randomly you will see what I said is statistically correct.
 
  sinat Hinam is not THE reason. It is one of many reasons and things said throughout the Talmudh. It is projected to be THE reason today because it perfectly fits a certain haskafa view (the way they interpret it) and the solution they bring is disastrous. Year by year you hear why was the temple destroyed? Because of Sinat Hinam, therefor what do we need "ahavat hinam". AND THAT IS IT, the end of it. Not much serious talk about actually working to rebuild the Temple. etc. etc.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2013, 11:59:16 AM »
You make it sound like this is out of control.  There are no personal attacks here, just differences of opinion.

Ok now as for you, KWRBT, BRING IT ON! 

(kidding)  I'm actually not going to continue discussing this for now, other than to say I agree with Muman on the techelet issue and Tag on pretty much everything else.

Ok. Just know that many people find the arguments regarding present-day techelet (at least one type) to be convincing, including an esteemed Rabbi such as Rabbi Belsky who would otherwise be assumed to be 100% conventional haredi.   And the vast majority of the people who do NOT wear techelet have never even looked into the matter.  So it can't be used as a proof that so many do not wear it, therefore it must not be the real one.        In addition, I know someone personally who became baal teshuvah and went to an esteemed haredi gadol in Eretz Yisrael to ask if he could wear techelet because it was something not encouraged or even mentioned in his BT yeshiva, and he was convinced it was the real thing, while his rabbis were not in favor of him wearing it.    The gadol said yes.    So, again, it's just not useful to make blanket assumptions.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2013, 04:16:01 PM »
Meanwhile, wherever he is, ABT is laughing his (used and abused) tuchis off...

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2013, 04:42:53 PM »
Meanwhile, wherever he is, ABT is laughing his (used and abused) tuchis off...

Perhaps his shul is also having a conversion parade.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Sveta

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »
Wild question here, but do we know anyone who has ever used the initials ABT??

All I keep thinking is A Baal Teshuva? Or what if it was someone who was really not Jewish or a covert but just trying to put us on? A...B...T?

  >:(

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2013, 05:12:26 PM »
Wild question here, but do we know anyone who has ever used the initials ABT??

All I keep thinking is A Baal Teshuva? Or what if it was someone who was really not Jewish or a covert but just trying to put us on? A...B...T?

  >:(

I'm not doing the numerology for it.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Sveta

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Re: Who is A Blue Thread really?
« Reply #124 on: July 14, 2013, 05:25:10 PM »
I'm not doing the numerology for it.

No need for numerology. But was there not some antagonist named "Allan something T"?
I don't mean to sound paranoid but this person used ABT... I don't know what the B is but A T?

That sounds familiar. I still do not know who "Ralph" is though.