Author Topic: Kosher Meat and Cheese?  (Read 17115 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 11:49:45 PM »
Imitation crab is VERY popular among Jews. It is frequently used to make sushi.

http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/188991/3509529/0/1211523815/Imitation_crab_stick_minced_style.jpg
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 11:51:46 PM »
Imitation crab is VERY popular among Jews. It is frequently used to make sushi.

http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/188991/3509529/0/1211523815/Imitation_crab_stick_minced_style.jpg


They sell it in the supermarket frozen section. It's also sold in kosher seafood salad at the kosher deli counter. They also sell the sushi you mention made fresh in the store.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 11:52:26 PM »
About this topic, anyway who cares? Why the obsession about eating a "cheese burger" or something else treif that has a kosher imitation.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2013, 11:53:07 PM »


They sell it in the supermarket frozen section. It's also sold in kosher seafood salad at the kosher deli counter. They also sell the sushi you mention made fresh in the store.

 Yepp that and spicy tuna is opular sushi. I think its called california roll if im not mistaken.  (just checked, yes it is California roll).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2013, 12:22:23 AM »
About this topic, anyway who cares? Why the obsession about eating a "cheese burger" or something else treif that has a kosher imitation.


I think it's goyish also. I just brought it up for the discussion of the Halachic issues involved. Previously someone posted about lab made meat. I asked if it would be kosher so I found an article. The question is whether it would be meat. Kosher meat has to be slaughtered. So the OU rabbi said it's not meat but the source of the stem cell would have to be from a kosher slaughter as with kosher pareve gelatin.


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2013, 01:14:38 AM »
It's the same with kosher bacon and kosher pepperoni. Bacon and pepperoni are not animals. It's the style in which the meat of the animal is prepared. There is no reason why you can't make it from kosher meat. But words like turkey ham are crazy though because ham is a known part of a pig.

I've eaten beef fry but it's not good to fry. It's just all fat and will make the frying pan give off smoke. It's better to be eaten as a cold cut since it's fully cooked anyway (Not like pork bacon.).

I've also eaten imitation shrimp and imitation crab. It's made from kosher fish.
Do they make kosher imitation brontosaurus?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2013, 01:15:48 AM »
Another case of Marit Ayin...


Is there a case of artificial meat in the Talmud that the sages ruled as maris ayin?   

Hanging up clothes on Shabbat is a specific din which has nothing to do with lab-grown/artificial hamburgers.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 01:18:31 AM »
I wouldn't eat it because it's goyish

It's goyish?  What does that mean exactly?   

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 01:21:28 AM »
I saw in a post above about "Appearance of transgression prohibited"
There is a place in LA called "Mexikosher" and while it is Kosher supervises, they serve "cheeseburgers" which is beef on some parve buns but with parve SOY cheese.

So, this would not be ok to eat? Technically it would be ok but due to the appearance, it should not be eaten?

Little-known fact (except by experts - and me, I guess, since an expert told me):  We can't make up new cases of maris ayin that the Talmudic sages themselves did not stipulate in the Torah Shebaal peh.   

There are many kosher restaurants which serve fake cheese with meat or serve fake meat/meat substitute with cheese!     That very fact alone leads me to believe that applying maris ayin to this issue is not credible.

There may be other issues involved with lab-grown meat, however.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 01:22:24 AM »
I am not an expert but I believe I heard that as long as everyone knows that the 'cheeseburger' at that restaurant is truly kosher, then there is no transgression of Mirat Ayin.


Then why did you try to apply maris ayin to the lab-grown hamburger?      Do you not see that the same logic could be applied if it's applied in this case you just described?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2013, 01:27:03 AM »
I just saw a soy "bacon" at the store. It said it was parve. It wasn't at a kosher market either but a regular grocery store in the vegetarian section. Let's say that the gentiles at the store see a Jewish person buying this fake "bacon"...that is when we would say not to buy it, right?

You have to go by halacha.  By a rav.   NOT by some general explanations told over to you on a messageboard which barely even touch the surface of the issue.    Maybe you can ask these questions to a rav near you?    Certainly, a kosher market is under supervision, no?  And especially depending on where it is located (ie which community) it may be under extremely strict supervision in some cases.   IF SO, then if fake bacon is a problem the kashrut agency wouldn't allow it there.   It is simply not possible that something can be allowed to be on a shelf and sold but only if you look around and see no gentiles are watching you.    No offense, but how could you even think that's realistic?   There is just no way that could be practical - If such a situation was truly the reality, I would bet with 99.99% confidence that the supervision agency would simply not allow it to be on the store's shelf at all.     But I'm quite sure that is not the reality of this issue.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 01:28:23 AM »
It's the same with kosher bacon and kosher pepperoni. Bacon and pepperoni are not animals. It's the style in which the meat of the animal is prepared. There is no reason why you can't make it from kosher meat. But words like turkey ham are crazy though because ham is a known part of a pig. 

Huh?  What do you mean that "words are crazy?"

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 01:31:51 AM »
Do they make kosher imitation brontosaurus?

I wonder how that would taste.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2013, 02:04:54 AM »
You have to go by halacha.  By a rav.   NOT by some general explanations told over to you on a messageboard which barely even touch the surface of the issue.    Maybe you can ask these questions to a rav near you?    Certainly, a kosher market is under supervision, no?  And especially depending on where it is located (ie which community) it may be under extremely strict supervision in some cases.   IF SO, then if fake bacon is a problem the kashrut agency wouldn't allow it there.   It is simply not possible that something can be allowed to be on a shelf and sold but only if you look around and see no gentiles are watching you.    No offense, but how could you even think that's realistic?   There is just no way that could be practical - If such a situation was truly the reality, I would bet with 99.99% confidence that the supervision agency would simply not allow it to be on the store's shelf at all.     But I'm quite sure that is not the reality of this issue.

IsraeliHeart said this case is not a Kosher market...

The problem would be that the non-Jew would think that the Jew is eating bacon even though there was a hecsher on the imitation bacon. The purpose of Marit Ayin is to avoid the appearance of transgression.

And it should be obvious that all questions should be discussed with a rav.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2013, 02:06:03 AM »
Is there a case of artificial meat in the Talmud that the sages ruled as maris ayin?   

Hanging up clothes on Shabbat is a specific din which has nothing to do with lab-grown/artificial hamburgers.

The purpose of the cases in the Talmud are just example cases, they can be applied to other things. Because the reason for that Talmudic passage concerning the drying of clothes on Shabbat is because it could have the appearance of transgression.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2013, 02:10:46 AM »
Then why did you try to apply maris ayin to the lab-grown hamburger?      Do you not see that the same logic could be applied if it's applied in this case you just described?

If the people observing the questionable action are not aware of the fact that no transgression is taking place due to 'imitation' whatever then I think there may be a question of Marit Ayin.

Look at how the concept of Marit Ayin is applied to a question about whether drinking 'mothers milk' and eating meat is prohibited:

http://ohr.jle.org.uk/ask/ask029.htm

Quote
Does mother's milk have the same laws as cow's milk? May one drink it with meat?

Dear Marvin,

Your question reminds me of an incident that happened in my neighborhood a few years ago. A pious Jew lives in the Geula section of Jerusalem who is known for holistic remedies. One of his well-known treatments for inducing labor is to drink a certain amount of mother's milk.

Well, it so happened that the wife of one of my neighbors was overdue, and doctors suggested that she be induced. Before having the doctors induce her she called up the wife of the pious Jew from Geula and asked her what she should do. Naturally, the wife told her to drink mother's milk.

My neighbor hung up, thought for a moment and then called back -- "Will it affect the remedy if I mix in some chocolate powder?"

They say that if you see the wife of that pious man today, she's still smiling -- "Only an American could ask such a question!"

Now on to your question. The Talmud teaches that the prohibition against mixing meat and milk applies only to the meat and milk of a kosher species of animal. Therefore, mother's milk is "pareve" (neither dairy nor meaty).

Nevertheless, the Shulchan Aruch rules that it is forbidden to cook meat with mother's milk because it looks like you are cooking with cow's milk ("Marit Ayin -- it "looks" bad). This prohibition is of Rabbinic origin. It was enacted because people might make a mistake and assume that you used cow's milk in your recipe.

Rav Moshe Isserlis states that if you use almond milk together with meat, which is not Biblically forbidden, you must place some almonds nearby so that people will know that it is in fact almond milk. Again the concern is about "Marit Ayin". Following this line of reasoning, many halachic authorities require that when using a non-dairy creamer at a meat meal, one should also display the container of the creamer so that everyone can see that it is in fact non-dairy.


Sources:

The Talmud - Tractate Chullin 113a.
The Shulchan Aruch - Yoreh Deah 57:4.
Rav Moshe Isserlis - Yoreh Deah 57:3.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2013, 02:19:59 AM »
Little-known fact (except by experts - and me, I guess, since an expert told me):  We can't make up new cases of maris ayin that the Talmudic sages themselves did not stipulate in the Torah Shebaal peh.   

There are many kosher restaurants which serve fake cheese with meat or serve fake meat/meat substitute with cheese!     That very fact alone leads me to believe that applying maris ayin to this issue is not credible.

There may be other issues involved with lab-grown meat, however.

Again you are missing the point of this whole discussion KWRBT...

The question has to do with a non-kosher market where non-Jews and other Jews who do not know better, would think you are transgressing.

And I also think you are wrong that the Talmud is closed, because various other decisions are learned from the Talmudic cases.

Do you actually think we learn about Ox's Goring neighbors because people are still being Gored by Ox's? No sir...

We learn about the cases in the Talmud in order to apply the concepts which are taught by these example cases. I am surprised you did not learn this.

So don't try to change the question to being in a kosher market. Obviously there would be no case of Marit Ayin in a Kosher establishment where everyone KNOWS ALREADY that the place is kosher. Do you really think we are that dumb as to suggest this?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2013, 02:24:32 AM »
 The Talmud is always used as a source of principles which are applied to daily lives. Obviously the question should be posed to a Rabbi who knows the laws better than any of us, but we should be aware that the cases of the Talmud are not the only cases which principles are applied.

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/impactjewish.html
Quote

LAW VERSUS ETHICS: 'THE WAY OF THE PIOUS'

Friedman (1980) notes that the Talmud often resorts to ethical principles in order to improve upon the law. Following the strict letter of the law is not sufficient. In fact, the Talmud (T. Bava Metzia 30b) claims that Jerusalem was destroyed because judgments were based strictly on the law and did not go beyond the strict line of justice. This principle of Jewish law, that demands that one be ethical and even go beyond the legal requirement, is derived from the verse (Deuteronomy 6:18): "You shall do that which is fair and good in the sight of the Lord." The Talmud (T. Bava Metzia 108a) uses this verse to establish the right of pre-emption, i.e., when one sells a field the adjoining neighbors are given the right of first refusal. In addition, individuals who go beyond the requirements of the law will return found objects even if the object was lost in a place where it is clear that the owner gave up any hope of recovery (e.g., if it fell into the sea), and there is thus no legal obligation to return it (T. Bava Metzia 24b).

Another indication that one must do more than simply obey the letter of the law is that "one may be (legally) compelled not to act in the manner of Sodom." In some situations where one party benefits and the other party loses absolutely nothing, the courts can compel an individual to do the right thing (e.g., T. Bava Bathra 12b). Spiteful selfishness of this type is considered a behavior characteristic of Sodom and is not tolerated by Jewish law.

Friedman (1985) demonstrates that the Talmudic sages believed that there is an ethics hierarchy and that individuals should strive to reach the summit. He notes that the highest level of ethics described in the Talmud is "the way of the pious." Businesspeople leading their lives according to this principle go beyond the letter of the law and are willing to lose money rather than take advantage of another person’s misfortunes. Gifter (2000) uses the following case discussed in the Talmud (T. Bava Metzia 83a) to prove that the purpose of the Torah and Talmud is not solely to provide precise answers to legal questions but to develop the morals and ethics of individuals.
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There are gradations of unethical behavior and the objective is to motivate individuals to move up the ethics hierarchy. Not everyone is capable of reaching the level of Rabbi Safra who is described in the Talmud (T. Maakoth 24a) as an individual who abided by the verse (Psalms 15:2) "who speaks truth in the heart." One day, while Rabbi Safra was praying, a man offered to buy some merchandise from him. He made an offer, but Rabbi Safra did not want to respond in the middle of a prayer. The prospective buyer assumed that Rabbi Safra was holding out for more and kept increasing the bid. After Rabbi Safra concluded his prayer, he informed the buyer that he would sell the merchandise at the first price because he had "agreed in his heart" to this price. Legally, one is not required to do as Rabbi Safra; this is the "way of the pious." On the other hand, if two parties have concluded negotiations leading to a sale and are in the process of closing the deal, and a third party jumps in and makes the purchase, the interloper cannot be prosecuted legally but is described by the Talmud (T. Kiddushin 59a) as a "wicked person."

The Talmud (T. Maakoth 24a) enumerates 11 ethical principles (based on Psalm 15) that underlie the 613 precepts of the Torah. These include such virtues as "speaks the truth from his heart," like Rabbi Safra; "deals righteously," like Abba Chilkiyahu, who would not even greet people while working as a day laborer since he did not want to waste time -- even a few moments -- that was not his; and "who has done his fellow human no evil," referring to one who does not infringe on his fellow craftsman’s business. Opening a store next door to a store selling the same merchandise is something a pious person does not do (Wagschal 1991, 25).
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2013, 02:25:40 AM »
Maybe you don't have to go to markets which are not completely kosher and buy items which have hecshers on them...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2013, 02:31:04 AM »
Here is a case of a Rabbi being asked if going out to lunch with his non-Jewish co-workers would be a violation of marit ayin... And some other issues concerning this concept 'marit ayin'...



http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/outershiur.asp?id=6425

Most of us are familiar with the prohibition of maris ayin, avoiding doing something that may raise suspicion that one violated halacha, or that someone may misinterpret, thus causing him to violate halacha. However, most of us are uncertain when this rule applies and when it does not.

Here are some examples mentioned by the Mishnah and Gemara:

A. One may not hang wet clothes on Shabbos because neighbors might think that he washed them on Shabbos (Mishnah and Gemara Shabbos 146b). This is true even when all the neighbors realize that he is a meticulously observant individual.

B. Officials who entered the Beis HaMikdash treasury did so barefoot and wearing garments that contained no hemmed parts or wide sleeves, and certainly no pockets or cuffs, so that it would be impossible for them to hide any coins (Shekalim 3:2). The Mishnah states that this practice is derived from the pasuk vihiyisem nekiyim meiHashem umiyisroel (Bamidbar 32:22), --- Do things in a way that is as obviously clean in the eyes of people as it is viewed by Hashem. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Shu’t Igros Moshe, Orach Chayim 4:82) contends that this type of maris ayin is prohibited min haTorah!

C. Tzedakah collectors should get other people to convert their currency for them and not convert it themselves, because people might think that they gave themselves a more favorable exchange rate (Gemara Bava Basra 8b; Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 257:2).

A CURIOUS CONTRADICTION

The concept mitzvah of maris ayin is a fascinating curiosity because it contradicts an important Torah mitzvah - to judge people favorably. This mitzvah requires us to judge a Torah Jew favorably when we see him act in a questionable way. (For further information on the mitzvah of judging people favorably, see Shaarei Teshuvah of Rabbeinu Yonah, 3:218.) If everyone always judged others favorably, there would never be a reason for maris ayin.

Yet we see that the Torah is concerned that someone might judge you unfavorably and suspect you for violating a mitzvah.

Indeed, a person’s actions must be above suspicion, while people watching him act in a suspicious way are required to judge him favorably.

THE TREIF RESTAURANT

May I enter a non-kosher restaurant to use the bathroom, to eat a permitted item, or to attend a professional meeting?

A prominent Rav once gleaned insight on this shaylah from early poskim who discussed the kashrus issues of Jewish travelers. In the sixteenth century, there was a dispute between the Rama and the Maharashal (Yam Shel Shelomoh, Chullin 8: 44) whether a Jewish traveler may eat herring and pickles prepared and served in non-kosher inns (quoted in Taz, Yoreh Deah 91:2). The Rama ruled that, under the circumstances, a traveler could eat these items on the inn’s non-kosher plates, whereas the Maharashal prohibited using the inn’s plates. However, neither sage prohibited eating nor entering the inn because of maris ayin; from which this Rav inferred that entering a non-kosher eating establishment does not violate maris ayin.

However, Rav Moshe Feinstein rules that entering a non-kosher eatery is a violation of maris ayin (Shu’t Igros Moshe, Orach Chayim 2:40). Why does he not compare this law to the inn of the earlier poskim?

The answer is that in the sixteenth century, the inn functioned as a place of shelter and lodging, in addition to providing food. Therefore, someone seeing you enter the inn would assume that you were looking for a place to sleep, and that you have no intention to eat non-kosher food there. Thus, the sixteenth-century inn is more comparable to a twentieth-first century hotel that contains non-kosher restaurants. There is certainly no maris ayin prohibition to visit a hotel since a passerby would assume that you are entering the hotel for reasons other than eating non-kosher. However, the primary reason people enter a non-kosher restaurant is to eat treif food. Therefore, Rav Moshe ruled that it is prohibited to enter a treif restaurant because of maris ayin.
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I am sorry if this is a digression from the topic. And it is true that if it is available at a kosher market and everyone there knows it is not meat, then there should be no issue. But what if this stuff is on the shelf, with a hecsher, would other Jews and non-Jews judge us incorrectly?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2013, 02:34:20 AM »
Huh?  What do you mean that "words are crazy?"
Most of what BY says is crazy!  :laugh:

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2013, 02:41:51 AM »
Most of what BY says is crazy!  :laugh:

I understood what he was trying to say.

I would not have used those words but rather that 'Turkey Ham' seems to be an oxymoron. Like 'Light Dark' or 'Good Monster', or other two words which don't seem to fit together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron

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An oxymoron (plural oxymora or oxymorons) (from Greek ὀξύμωρον, "sharp dull") is a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms. Oxymora appear in a variety of contexts, including inadvertent errors such as ground pilot and literary oxymorons crafted to reveal a paradox.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2013, 02:44:13 AM »
Here is more from the wiki site on Oxymorons...



The most common form of oxymoron involves an adjective-noun combination of two words. For example, the following line from Tennyson's Idylls of the King contains two oxymora:

"And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."

Other examples of oxymora of this kind are:

Dark light
Living dead
Guest host (also: Permanent guest host)
Mad wisdom
Mournful optimist
Violent relaxation

Less often seen are noun-verb combinations of two words, such as the line "The silence whistles" from Nathan Alterman's Summer Night, or in a record album title like Sounds of Silence.

Oxymora are not always a pair of words; they can also be devised in the meaning of sentences or phrases.



The example I thought of 'Dark Light' or rather 'Light Dark' appears there.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2013, 07:57:01 AM »
Source of the following http://www.dafyomi.co.il/sanhedrin/points/sn-ps-059.htm which is a summary of part of the Talmud Sanhedrin page 59b
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(j)   Question: Does meat fall from Shamayim?!
(k)   Answer: Yes! R. Shimon ben Chalafta encountered lions. They roared at him (they wanted to eat him). He said "ha'Kefirim Sho'agim la'Taref" - two pieces of meat came down (from Shamayim). The lions ate one. He took the other to the Beis Medrash, and asked if it was Tahor or Tamei.
1.   Rabanan: Tamei things do not descend from Shamayim.
(l)   Question (R. Zeira): If an animal resembling a donkey descended from Shamayim, what is the law?
(m)   Rabanan: We already said that Tamei things do not descend from Shamayim. (Surely, such an animal would not fall. If it did, it would be Tahor.)

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2013, 09:08:21 AM »
IsraeliHeart said this case is not a Kosher market...

Oh, I misread that part.
If the product is kosher I still don't see what the holdup is.

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The problem would be that the non-Jew would think that the Jew is eating bacon even though there was a hecsher on the imitation bacon. The purpose of Marit Ayin is to avoid the appearance of transgression.

And it should be obvious that all questions should be discussed with a rav.

Again, if there is a problem of maris ayin to just buy the product I highly, highly, highly! doubt that the kashrut agency would put a hechsher on it.