Author Topic: Kosher Meat and Cheese?  (Read 17144 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2013, 09:09:34 AM »
The purpose of the cases in the Talmud are just example cases, they can be applied to other things. 

I was told by a posek that that is simply not true.  We do not have the authority to make up new cases of maris ayin.   Only the specific cases chazal stipulated are cases of maris ayin.


Who should I believe?  You, or the posek?  I'm going with the posek.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 09:27:27 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2013, 09:23:44 AM »
Again you are missing the point of this whole discussion KWRBT...

The question has to do with a non-kosher market where non-Jews and other Jews who do not know better, would think you are transgressing.   

Do you really believe that gentiles know or care about the difference between a "kosher market" and a "non-kosher market"? ( And btw, what exactly is the halachic difference?  Never heard of this).  Do gentiles assume that Jews buying products in a non-kosher market are transgressing?   NO!     Otherwise why are there chassidim shopping in my local shoprite?    I am not missing any point, it is you who are making up transgressions and prohibitions, IMO.

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And I also think you are wrong that the Talmud is closed,

lol, what?    The chasimas hashas happened a long time ago.    Haven't you noticed that no one has added anything to the talmud in about 1000+ years?    That is also how it's possible to do a Daf Yomi and Siyum Hashas on a predictable time schedule.   Because the talmud is today a set text.    I have no idea what you are saying.

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because various other decisions are learned from the Talmudic cases. 
   What are you referring to?

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Do you actually think we learn about Ox's Goring neighbors because people are still being Gored by Ox's? No sir... 

In the talmudic times, they were being gored by oxes.  And we learn it because it was happening at that time, even though it's not happening today.  Similarly in times even before the talmudic times, tuma and tahara was a relevant subject because a Beit Hamikdash stood, and these laws were mostly about keeping the Temple pure.    Today people don't practice those aspects but that doesn't mean we forget these dinim or throw them out because some day they may become relevant again.   If you make a personal decision to study these topics only because you can see some parallel to something that DOES exist today, that has no bearing on what the actual "purpose" of these laws were or why they are in the Talmudic corpus.

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We learn about the cases in the Talmud in order to apply the concepts which are taught by these example cases. I am surprised you did not learn this.

So that we can make up new prohibitions on the spot based on faulty logic?   Nope, I didn't learn that because it isn't taught by real rabbis.

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So don't try to change the question to being in a kosher market.
Obviously there would be no case of Marit Ayin in a Kosher establishment where everyone KNOWS ALREADY that the place is kosher. Do you really think we are that dumb as to suggest this?

Wasn't trying to change the question, I misread her statement about fake bacon where she said "wasn't a kosher market" - I read it accidentally as "was a kosher market"  - Oops.

Where did you get the idea that there is a distinction in halacha regarding food when it's at a "kosher market" vs. a stam market?   I have never heard of such a thing.     If a product has a hechsher, it is kosher.  Period.

When did I use the word "dumb?"   

I still don't see maris ayin as a valid application for lab-grown meat and you haven't proven that, yet you INSIST on it.   Why?   Maybe there is some other issue involved with lab-grown meat, but if fake cheese with real meat and fake meat with real cheese are not problems of maris ayin, then the logic is pretty simple that neither would lab-grown meat be an issue of maris ayin.   You even admitted this logic was correct, didn't you?

As to the fake bacon issue, if the product has a hechsher and/or has kosher ingredients, I think you are advising her incorrectly and she should ask a rabbi (a knowledgeable one who knows shas and routinely paskens shailas, not just any rabbi!) rather than asking you.   Even if I'm pretty sure of the answer already, but let her ask someone who knows for sure, rather than asking us and giving her wrong guidance.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2013, 09:25:56 AM »
Maybe you don't have to go to markets which are not completely kosher and buy items which have hecshers on them...

Of course I do.   On a regular basis.

But there are chassidim who have their own village with their own shops who ALSO shop in the same gentile stores as me.     We buy the kosher products and do not buy the non-kosher products.   That's how life works.   That is how Jewish life always worked before there was such a thing as a kashrut agency or even a "kosher supermarket" or strictly Jewish market.    In most cases in Jewish history such things were unheard of and impossible.   In many areas today, they still don't exist.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2013, 09:26:33 AM »
Here is a case of a Rabbi being asked if going out to lunch with his non-Jewish co-workers would be a violation of marit ayin... And some other issues concerning this concept 'marit ayin'...




A restaurant is not the same thing as a market or grocery store.    Please don't conflate the issues.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2013, 09:53:50 AM »
Muman- Here is a case of a Rabbi being asked if going out to lunch with his non-Jewish co-workers would be a violation of marit ayin... And some other issues concerning this concept 'marit ayin'...


KWRBT
A restaurant is not the same thing as a market or grocery store.    Please don't conflate the issues.

 Me- Actually one can if and when one knows how to eat only the Kosher foods and not the non-kosher.

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2013, 09:55:47 AM »
muman613
Maybe you don't have to go to markets which are not completely kosher and buy items which have hecshers on them...


KWRBT-
Of course I do.   On a regular basis.

But there are chassidim who have their own village with their own shops who ALSO shop in the same gentile stores as me.     We buy the kosher products and do not buy the non-kosher products.   That's how life works.   That is how Jewish life always worked before there was such a thing as a kashrut agency or even a "kosher supermarket" or strictly Jewish market.    In most cases in Jewish history such things were unheard of and impossible.   In many areas today, they still don't exist.


Me- Muman are you serious? Dont you live in San Francisco and I would assume that the bvast majority of the markets are owned by non-Jews and the the very small minority by Jews (or all kosher foods in them only).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2013, 11:02:35 AM »
Muman- Here is a case of a Rabbi being asked if going out to lunch with his non-Jewish co-workers would be a violation of marit ayin... And some other issues concerning this concept 'marit ayin'...


KWRBT
A restaurant is not the same thing as a market or grocery store.    Please don't conflate the issues.

 Me- Actually one can if and when one knows how to eat only the Kosher foods and not the non-kosher.

I agree w you Tag, in fact my rav told me that is permitted.  My point was merely that a restaurant and a grocery store are different issues.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2013, 11:47:37 AM »
LKZ.....now I am just depressed.  :'(

It's OK, I grow my own food, and I'll share ;)
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2013, 01:38:46 PM »
I agree w you Tag, in fact my rav told me that is permitted.  My point was merely that a restaurant and a grocery store are different issues.

 Okay although I dont know what would be permitted except a can of soda or tuna sandwich (at subway). Meat not allowed, salad not allowed as well because of insect issues. What else is their? Perhaps a piece of bread? Chips (potato chips, closed with Hasgafa on it).

 Continuation (after break)

 Come to think of it you are correct, their are other issues in Muman's example.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2013, 01:44:31 PM »
Okay although I dont know what would be permitted except a can of soda or tuna sandwich (at subway). Meat not allowed, salad not allowed as well because of insect issues. What else is their? Perhaps a piece of bread? Chips (potato chips, closed with Hasgafa on it).

 Continuation (after break)

 Come to think of it you are correct, their are other issues in Muman's example.


Salad seems less problematic than the tuna sandwich. Their tuna sandwiches are prepared with the same utensils that prepared non-kosher meat.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2013, 01:49:33 PM »


Salad seems less problematic than the tuna sandwich. Their tuna sandwiches are prepared with the same utensils that prepared non-kosher meat.

 No salads or any greem leefy vegetables need to be properly checked and washed.

 Subway tuna is in a separate container, and they do take a different knife for tuna ( I usually see it colored yellow as opposed to them preparing the meats in red knife handle). Also the knife is cold soo even less of an issue. Just don't get any cheese or bread made with cheese (other issues involved). And no lettuce or green leafy vegetables. The rest are fine (not sure about dressings need to check individually about ingredients but who eats dressing with tune anyway).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2013, 02:28:00 PM »
Let me explain some issue which seem to be misrepresented about what I am saying:

1) I am not stating that what I write is Halacha, I simply stated that there may be an issue with Marit Ayin concerning this.

2) I still believe there is an issue concerning Marit Ayin and this issue should be discussed with a competent rav.

3) Marit Ayin is simply doing something which others will see and come to the conclusion we are transgressing a commandment of the Torah. It doesn't matter whether or not it actually is a transgression, it matters what the observer thinks and feels.

4) Rabbi Moshe Fienstein answered a question about a Jew eating in a Non-Jewish establishment and he found that doing so would cause issue with Marit Ayin. As a result it should be obvious that Marit Ayin is possible in cases not listed in the Talmud.

5) The Talmud provides example cases and  through the process of Exegesis we can derive how to apply the principles learned in the pasuk to other cases. I brought the example of Ox Goring because most people realize this is the source of all the Jewish laws concerning property damage and restitution (even in cases where no Ox's or Goring occured)..

I am willing to discuss each of these if anyone is interested. I hope to address these in more detail after the Shabbat.


For the time being, those interested in Exegesis can refer to these links:

http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/16661/jewish/Thirteen-Principles-of-Torah-Exegesis.htm
http://ohr.jle.org.uk/judaism/survey/survey4.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2013, 02:33:49 PM »
So KWRBT,

Why does Rabbi Moshe Feinstein rule that entering a non-kosher eatery is forbidden if (as your rav said) the  only cases of marit ayin are the cases in the Talmud? Do you consider Rav Feinstein a competent posek? He is considered one of the Gedolim of our last generation. How could he rule that it was indeed a case of marit ayin then?



http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/outershiur.asp?id=6425

However, Rav Moshe Feinstein rules that entering a non-kosher eatery is a violation of maris ayin (Shu’t Igros Moshe, Orach Chayim 2:40). Why does he not compare this law to the inn of the earlier poskim?

The answer is that in the sixteenth century, the inn functioned as a place of shelter and lodging, in addition to providing food. Therefore, someone seeing you enter the inn would assume that you were looking for a place to sleep, and that you have no intention to eat non-kosher food there. Thus, the sixteenth-century inn is more comparable to a twentieth-first century hotel that contains non-kosher restaurants. There is certainly no maris ayin prohibition to visit a hotel since a passerby would assume that you are entering the hotel for reasons other than eating non-kosher. However, the primary reason people enter a non-kosher restaurant is to eat treif food. Therefore, Rav Moshe ruled that it is prohibited to enter a treif restaurant because of maris ayin.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2013, 02:35:15 PM »
The purpose of poseks is to apply the cases in the Talmud according to the process of exegesis to modern issues.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2013, 03:54:00 PM »
Wouldn't it look like a normal burger thus invoking the problem of 'Appearance of Transgression'/Marit Ayin?

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/shoftim69.htm

http://ohr.jle.org.uk/ask/ask029.htm


Exactly...If there is a halakhic provision that forbids mixing poultry with dairy just because it can confuse and tempt someone from breaking the rule of kashrut, then how does this change the situation?

And shouldn't kosher bacon flavored foods or shrimp flavored foods be considered unkosher for that same reason??
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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2013, 04:54:12 PM »

Exactly...If there is a halakhic provision that forbids mixing poultry with dairy just because it can confuse and tempt someone from breaking the rule of kashrut, then how does this change the situation?

And shouldn't kosher bacon flavored foods or shrimp flavored foods be considered unkosher for that same reason??

 Mixing poultry and dairy is a different issue, I dont think it is only about confusing it with meat (as in cow, lamb etc.) It is/was also decreed as such.

  I think it was addressed earlier in the thread (probably by EDU) the Talmudh brings examples where something forbidden be it actions or foods has exact same Kosher equivalence. That equivalence is certainly not banned soo why should these things be? If our Hachamim never made such bans their is no reason and no authority for us to do soo just because it "feels right" or such things.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2013, 05:02:00 PM »
Mixing poultry and dairy is a different issue, I dont think it is only about confusing it with meat (as in cow, lamb etc.) It is/was also decreed as such.

  I think it was addressed earlier in the thread (probably by EDU) the Talmudh brings examples where something forbidden be it actions or foods has exact same Kosher equivalence. That equivalence is certainly not banned soo why should these things be? If our Hachamim never made such bans their is no reason and no authority for us to do soo just because it "feels right" or such things.

Again I think you are missing the point of this question. Nobody, at least not myself, is suggesting that the food itself is not kosher and it is 100% OK for a Jew to eat. The question I am bringing has to do SPECIFICALLY with the question of Marit Ayin, the appearance of a transgression.

You can be 100% sure that your Parve-Burget is kosher but another person may observe your action and conclude you are transgressing. This is the complete point of the question of Marit ayin...

But this discussion has gone on too long.. I still have the question of whether this would constitute a case of marit ayin, even if the food is completely kosher. There are circumstances where it is not possible to alert everyone that this is not a 'stock' meat burger but rather a lab-grown burger... As I said, if in a kosher market or restaurant, then there is no question of marit ayin...



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2013, 05:28:06 PM »
Muman go to the Gemarah and Psokim and see the examples of Marit Ayin. If they dont match we cant just make new stuff up at will. If that would be the case you shouldn't and wouldn't be able to do much because perhaps just in case that other person is watching and they might think you did something wrong. The examples of this would be endless.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2013, 05:37:48 PM »
Muman go to the Gemarah and Psokim and see the examples of Marit Ayin. If they dont match we cant just make new stuff up at will. If that would be the case you shouldn't and wouldn't be able to do much because perhaps just in case that other person is watching and they might think you did something wrong. The examples of this would be endless.

Well I don't agree that the only cases of Marit Ayin are in the Talmud. What do you think of Rabbi Moshe Feinsteins decision that eating in a non-Jewish restaurant is a violation of Marit Ayin? Did Moshe Feinstein just make something up? I don't think so.

Marit Ayin is a concept having to do with the question of whether observers of our actions would judge our action as a transgression regardless of whether it was or not.

See Shu’t Igros Moshe, Orach Chayim 2:40
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2013, 05:44:17 PM »
Apparently there is a disagreement between poskim on this question. You and KWRBT seem to adopt R. Ovadiah Yosefs view that we cannot add Marit Ayin cases, but there are others who disagree...


The following excerpt explains some of what I am saying above, but I recommend reading the whole article..

http://blog.webyeshiva.org/questions-and-answers/r-ovadya-yosef-on-22-cheshvan-and-avoiding-misimpressions

Quote
R. Ovadya Yosef on 22 Cheshvan and Avoiding Misimpressions

Two responsa R. Ovadya Yosef wrote on the 22nd of Cheshvan—more than twenty years apart—introduce us to the question of marit ayin, of when we are required to worry that those who witness our actions will get the wrong impression.  In the first, Volume 6, Yoreh Deah 8 of Yabia Omer, written in 5730 (the fall of 1969 in the secular calendar), he was asked about hotels that serve parve milk following a meat meal.  The questioner, who was the head of a regional kashrut division, wondered why this would not spark marit ayin concerns.

The Original Case of Marit Ayin and Its Solution

R. Ovadya begins with the Talmudic discussion (Keritut 21b), where Rav prohibits partaking of fish blood (which the Torah does not include in blood prohibitions) that has been collected in a container, even though there is no Torah prohibition. Since a baraita allows it completely, the Talmud distinguishes between where there were scales left in the blood, showing that it was not of the impermissible type, and where not, the case Rav prohibited because it looks too much like using animal blood.

In his Darkei Moshe, Rema noted that Maharshal prohibited cooking chicken and other such meat in almond milk unless the dish was served with almonds on the table, to be clear that the milk is not real.  Rema disagreed, because the prohibition against cooking chicken and other fowl in milk is rabbinic, and Rema did not believe rabbinic prohibitions required efforts to avoid marit ayin, others getting a misimpression from your actions.  And, R. Ovadya notes, that is how Rema rules in Yoreh Deah 87;4 as well, that dishes where animal meat has been cooked in almond milk require a visible sign to make clear that this is not real milk, but dishes where the prohibition of meat and milk is rabbinic do not.

While Bach agreed with Maharshal that we should worry about marit ayin even in cases of rabbinic prohibitions), he limited that to public actions. Ordinarily, these prohibitions apply as much in private as in public; in this instance, though, Bach concedes that if you were eating a dish of non-animal meat cooked with non-dairy milk in private, you would not be obligated to put evidence that it’s not real milk in view, to insure that no one get the wrong impression.

Can We Add Marit Ayin Concerns of our Own, Post-Talmudically?

R. Ovadya also cites a claim by Peri Chadash—which he does not seem to accept in practice, as we will see in the next responsum—that we do not add to those marit ayin prohibitions found in the Talmud.  Peri Chadash says that even Rashba’s claim (responsum 3;257) that human milk still raises marit ayin concerns is problematic, since there is no clear way to decide which marit ayin issues we add to on our own.  Peri Chadash pointed out, for one example, that we do not require treating animals such as deer in the same ways we are required to treat cows, although once cooked they, too, look the same.  He argues, therefore, that we only observe those marit ayin rules the Talmud itself instituted.

Coming to a ruling for the case of serving parve milk after a meat meal, certainly Peri Chadash would have no problem, since he objects to promulgating new marit ayin rules.  Rema and his camp did not worry about marit ayin for rabbinic prohibitions.  R. Ovadya then argues that in this case even Maharshal and Bach would rule permissively, because the milk is only being served after the meal.

That means that the action people might witness is not intrinsically prohibited; even if it were real milk, the act would only be a problem if we knew other information, that the people drinking it had recently eaten meat.  Unless the act itself, misread, would be rabbinically prohibited, R. Ovadya argues, even Maharshal and Bach would see no marit ayin concerns.

In practical terms, R. Ovadya’s ruling shows us that we generally only worry about marit ayin in cases of Biblical prohibitions, and even there, if we can attach a readily visible disclaimer, it would be allowed.  We can eat meat cooked in almond or other parve milks; we only need to be sure to put something on the table that makes clear this is not ordinary milk.  In addition, R. Ovadya asserts that we only worry when the action we are doing is itself apparently prohibited—suggesting that the classic marit ayin example, going into McDonald’s to use the phone or restroom would not, in fact, be a problem.  On the other hand, bringing your own hamburger to eat with non-Jewish friends in McDonald’s would be, unless you put something on the table to make clear that you weren’t eating McDonald’s non-kosher food.

A Subtle Rebuke

The second responsum I noted appears in volume 8 Orach Chayim 17, and has a couple of points of interest before the substance itself. Dated 22 Cheshvan 5752 (1991), it addresses a rabbi in Morocco on the occasion of his publishing a book of responsa.  Curiously, in volume 7 of Yabia Omer, R. Ovadya had also published a responsum to the same rabbi on the same occasion. That responsum bears the same date as this one, meaning R. Ovadya chose to separate the two by a volume despite their having been (apparently) written at the same time. In addition, this second responsum opens with significantly longer and more flowery honorifics than the previous one.

He doesn’t explain why, but I note that in each case R. Ovadya was pointing out that this rabbi had taken a position opposite the one that R. Ovadya himself had in earlier volumes of Yabia Omer.  He doesn’t point out the irony, but it seems odd that this man turned to R. Ovadya for an approbation but did not bother reading and/or responding to R. Ovadya’s position on those issues!  Perhaps R. Ovadya separated them—and added the flowery language—to soften the blow of disagreeing with him, and subtly upbraiding him for not reading his work.
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So it seems there is some disagreement on what cases are applicable to marit ayin.

I learned that you both have a strong point in this discussion.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2013, 09:29:21 PM »
Chabad.org just posted a new article on this very topic... It does not come to a Halachic conclusion but demonstrates some of the Talmudic sources which would permit such 'meat' to be considered Kosher.



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2293219/jewish/Is-the-Lab-Created-Burger-Kosher.htm

Is the Lab-Created Burger Kosher?
The halachic status of lab-created meat
By Yehuda Shurpin


Question:

Scientists have recently demonstrated that they can now take stem cells from a cow and build them into hamburgers that look, feel and (almost) taste like the real thing. What does Jewish law have to say? Is this considered real meat? Is it kosher?

Response:

This is a fascinating question that needs to be studied carefully by expert rabbis when the issue becomes more practical and Petri-dish burgers become an affordable option. But here are some preliminary thoughts on the subject to give you some perspective.

Meat from Heaven

What makes this question so intriguing is that this is an example of how those seemingly fantastic Aggadic tales in the Talmud are nowadays becoming a starting point for new halachik questions.

There is actually a discussion in the Talmud about whether meat that does not come from an animal is considered kosher, although the origin of the meat in this case was even more miraculous:

A story of Rabbi Shimeon ben Chalafta, who was walking on the road, when lions met him and roared at him. Thereupon he quoted from Psalms: “The young lions roar for prey and to beg their food from G‑d,”1 and two lumps of flesh descended [from heaven]. They ate one and left the other. This he brought to the study hall and propounded: Is this fit [for food] or not? The scholar answered: “Nothing unfit descends from heaven.” Rabbi Zera asked Rabbi Abbahu: “What if something in the shape of a donkey were to descend?” He replied: “You ‘howling yorod,2’ did they not answer him that no unfit thing descends from heaven?”3

Miraculous meat appears again in the Talmud, although this time it was man-made:

Rabbi Chanina and Rabbi Oshaia would spend every Sabbath eve studying the “Book of Creation”4 by means of which they created a calf and ate it.5

In discussing this story, later commentators debate whether such an animal would require shechitah (kosher slaughter) in order to be eaten.

Rabbi Yeshayah Halevi Horowitz, known as the Shelah, writes that it is not considered a real animal and does not need shechitah.6

Others write that while a technical interpretation of Biblical law may not require such an animal to be slaughtered, the rabbinical prohibition of “marit ayin” (not engaging in acts that look misleadingly similar to forbidden activity) would necessitate slaughter--lest an onlooker think that ordinary meat is being consumed without shechitah.7

Test-Tube Beef

So far we have discussed “miracle meat” that came from heaven or was created by spiritual means. Some commentators defined this meat as miraculous because it did not come from a naturally-born animal. But do we consider any meat that does not come from a naturally-born animal to be “miracle meat”? Or does it need to come through an actual miracle? How about test-tube meat, which does come from actual animal cells? In this case the dictum that “no unfit thing descends from heaven” obviously would not apply. Here are some of the issues that will need to be explored:

● The Cells The scientist extracted the cells of a real animal and used them to grow the tissues in a Petri dish. If, and that is not a small if, the mere cells are considered substantial enough to be called meat, this may present a problem. In addition to the prohibition of eating a limb from a living animal,8 there is an additional injunction not to eat any meat that was severed from a live animal.9

This is an issue for non-Jews as well as Jews, since Noahide law dictates that non-Jews may not eat even a minute amount of meat that was separated from a living animal.10

For Jews, if the cells are considered real meat, then presumably they would need to be extracted from a kosher animal that was slaughtered according to Jewish law.

Another consideration is that there is a halachik concept, “the product of non-kosher is itself not kosher, and the product of that which is kosher is itself kosher.”11 While at first glance this would seem to imply that the cells need to come from a kosher source, it is not clear whether the above rule would apply to microscopic cells that were extracted from an animal.

● The Product In Jewish law, a food that contains only a minuscule amount of a non-kosher ingredient can still be considered kosher if the non-kosher ingredient is nullified (usually) by at least a factor of 60 to 1. At first glance it would appear that we can apply this rule to our scenario, since the original cells are greatly outnumbers by the “meat” produced. However, halachah states that the above rule does not apply to a “davar hama’amid,” an ingredient that establishes the form of the item. The essential ingredient can never be nullified, no matter how small it is.12 It would seem that the same rule applies to the cells that are essential to growing the meat. If they don’t come from a kosher source, they can never be nullified, and whatever is created with them is also not kosher.

As noted earlier, these are just preliminary thoughts on the subject. Any halachik ruling would have to come from rabbis who are expert in these matters.

Quote
FOOTNOTES
1.    Psalms 104:21
2.    Rashi explains that this is a species of bird that always seems to be wailing and mourning. Some commentators explain that he meant to admonish his student Rabbi Zera for his excessive asceticism. Rabbi Abbhu felt that the many fasts that Rabbi Zera undertook had taken a toll on his clarity of mind, this being an example of it, see Chavos Ya’ir 152.
3.    Talmud Sanhedrin 59b
4.    A Kabbalistic work ascribed to Abraham our forefather.
5.    Talmud Sanhedrin 65b
6.    Shalaha Parshas Vayeishev. He cites this piece of Talmud in relation to the episode of the selling of Joseph by his brothers, which, some explain, was a punishment to Joseph. Thinking that he had seen the brothers eat the limb from a living animal, he went and tattled to his father. However, the Shelah explains that in fact the animal they ate was similar to the one described in the Talmud here, and therefore it did not required slaughter and was also not an issue of Eiver Min Hachai.
7.    See Pischei Teshuvah on Yoreh Deih 62:1
8.    Deuteronomy 12:23
9.    Exodus 22:13
10.    Maimonidies laws of kings 9:10. For more on the seven Noahide laws, see The Seven Noahide Laws
11.    Talmud Bechoros 5b
12.    Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deiah 87:11



Shabbat Shalom...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2013, 02:38:05 AM »
Muman613 If there is a kosher certificate on the package of this synthetic meat that states it is parve or if there is a kosher certificate for the restaurant which says the restaraunt is complying with Jewish Law, why do you think there is a possible issue of “marit ayin”?

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2013, 02:46:45 AM »
Muman613 If there is a kosher certificate on the package of this synthetic meat that states it is parve or if there is a kosher certificate for the restaurant which says the restaraunt is complying with Jewish Law, why do you think there is a possible issue of “marit ayin”?

You could get used to it and want it over a hamburger when you can't have the kosher cheese.
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2013, 09:12:05 AM »
I'm imagining a sandwich with artificial beef, soy cheese, and turkey bacon for a kosher bacon cheeseburger.  ;D

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Kosher Meat and Cheese?
« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2013, 11:27:11 AM »
You could get used to it and want it over a hamburger when you can't have the kosher cheese.

Huh?  That has nothing to do with marit ayin.