Chaim...
Here is the 1st post I made in this thread... I clearly say that because we curse the informer and heretic that it is OK to do so... Is this wrong? Does this make our forum look bad? This is essential the same thing you said when you started commenting on this thread...
LKZ,
What you say is true but because this woman is an 'informer' and a denier of the truth of Torah we do not have to have mercy on her. Indeed we should not hatefully and angrily call for her death, but we should not defend her nor should we make excuses for her.
It is this kind of woman that we curse every day in our Shemoneh Esrei prayer (against the informer and heretic).
Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.
Hashem will deal with her in this world...
Here is my second post on this thread where I explain that Hate is OK when it is warranted...
Judaism teaches that everything in creation has a purpose, nothing was created without a reason. So according to this we can understand what Kohelet meant by 'A time to love, a time to hate...'. While Love is the desired emotion there are occasions when hatred is the appropriate response. As long as the hatred is not inspired by anger (which often leads to foolish action) then the hate may be appropriate.
There is the concept "Hate the sin, Love the sinner" where we attempt to separate the sinner from the sin. If the sinner could make teshuva (repentance) then the sin would be forgiven and the sinner can be counted again with the righteous. But if a sinner does not stop sinning it is difficult to stop from hating the sinner.
We should have patience with people who make sins unintentionally. But intentional sin is hard to avoid feelings of hatred. But even so we should try hard to avoid anger and instead work toward a solution which will remove the sin with the least amount of suffering.
Typo corrected in last paragraph
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/158,2181233/What-is-the-Jewish-view-on-hate.html
What is the Jewish view on hate?
by Rabbi Mendy Hecht
A. Firstly, hate is misunderstood. Hate is misconstrued. Hate is equated with things it is not. Hate has been branded the darkest evil, so much so that it has become the most feared subject: discussing it is the height of political incorrectness--and squeamishness. But if any and all hate is evil, how can you hate Nazism? How can you hate racism? How can you hate rape and murder? How can you hate hate?
B. Let's define hate: Hate is a normal human emotion, like love. As a matter of fact, they are opposites. Hate rejects, love accepts. Hate is separation, love is connection. If you absolutely cannot hate, then you absolutely cannot love, either. It's just a question of what you do with them: hate can make you a hero (Batman hates muggers), love can get you locked up (stalking pretty girls). So is hate bad? Is love good? No, no: it depends on whom or what you're hating or loving.
Having safely established that the PC Police will not come after you upon admitting that hate is alive and well, let's lay down what Judaism's view on hate is.
1. You're squeamishness about hate is valid: most hate is wrong--but that's because most hate today is expressed by violating the civil, property or religious rights of others. On the other hand, if your hate for something so morally appalling and antithetical to your beliefs causes you to avoid or even civilly protest it, that is good hate. It is absolute rejection of something you ought to be absolutely rejecting. So it's not the hate as much as it is the crime. Hate has been equated with crime, because it's most often expressed by a crime.
2. Even good hate needs to be extremely controlled and limited. One of the most fundamental Mitzvahs of the Torah is the imperative to love your fellow as yourself. Hatred towards other human beings without legitimate cause is antithetical to that ideal (to say the least). Hate is only ok as a true rejection of something wrong, and may not be the an expression of your own offended ego, or your jealousy of someone else's ego. Hate must also be a catalyst for constructive growth, and not a cause for paralyzing depression or destruction.
My fourth post in this thread continues to justify EJA44's position by comparing the case to the case of Pinchas Ben Elazar Ben Aaron.
I do not really understand why what EJA44 said is so wrong.
While today we do not do like he suggested the Torah clearly says that during the time of Moses the great Pinchas Ben Elazar Ben Aaron acted zealously and ran a spear through Cosbi and Zimri for having a forbidden relationship before the tent of Moses and the entire people. It was a Chillul Hashem and Pinchas's zealotry was rewarded by Hashem.
Of course this does not condone doing this today without the proper intentions and without a system of justice. We do not take law into our own hands...
Does this seem like I am provoking anyone or calling anyone names? Not really...
Here is my fourth comment on this thread where I lend some support to LKZ's position concerning showing mercy in our curses, not cursing one who is guilty of a sin which we may have transgressed... Is this so terrible?
LKZ,
I really care about you a lot and I know what you are trying to do in this thread. You explained very well why you cannot condemn her and I hope everyone else takes the time to understand what you have said.
Intermarriage is hurtful to the Jewish people, and it has happened in my family (and I even married a non-Jew from which I am currently divorced). I also understand how difficult it is and have mercy on those in similar situations.
I too do not wish death on her. But she is included in the curse on the informers and the heretics because at this time she is acting in a manner which appears to desecrate Hashem and his people. Although I have no intimate (or otherwise) knowledge of the case I usually trust Chaims opinion on this. Although he has now raised the threshold before he curses people (and I am so happy to observe this) I do not curse her name, only because she is in the category of informer.
My fifth post on this thread also does not make anything person or derogatory... Here I discuss when it is and when it is not permitted to curse a fellow Jew... Is this offensive to anyone?
I will repost the following article which discusses the concept of 'Rebuke' according to our Holy Torah's teachings.
I think it is relevant concerning when it becomes acceptable to curse Jews who have become enemies of our people. It is something which is much more common today than it was 100 years ago. We have the curse in the Amidah prayer against informers and heretics who do damage to the Jewish people.
We should not curse others for things which we may have problems with ourselves. This I believe is why some people have not joined in condemning this case. But even if we are not perfect we should be able to recognize that if a person joins the enemy and starts making public the enemies hatred of the Jews, then it is a chillul Hashem against the entire Jewish nation. We should hope that the person turns around and makes amends for their grave transgression.
The Torah implores us to rebuke our neighbor for their sins, and we should keep rebuking them up to a point before we consider them wicked and curse them. The general principles is not to curse others, but in order to prevent an evil person from accomplishing his or her goals and to warn others of the evils of this person, it may become acceptable to curse them publicly.
It is a fine line which we all should try to comprehend. We should not flippantly start cursing people we don't like. It cheapens the idea of curses, and it is dangerous because of things LKZ discussed (increasing judgment and scrutiny on your own transgressions).
From Rambams laws:
http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/ch6law7b.html
In my next post in this thread I bring the Rambams position on what informers are and are not:
Here is what Rambam says about Informers:
http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LOR3-12.html
Is that objectionable? I don't think so...
My next post argues against thinking that a Jew can somehow become a non-Jew... According to the Torah sources a person born or converted to Judaism is a Jew for life (till death do they part)
There is no scriptural source for the concept 'no longer a Jew' according to the Torah both written and oral.
The concept of Karet is the closest thing to no longer being considered a Jew. It means 'cut off' as the Torah proscribes Karet for a variety of sins. But even Karet does not make a person 'not a Jew' but rather their connection to Hashem and his people have been severed. Those who are 'cut off' can still do Teshuva...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1340046/jewish/Can-Someone-Be-Cut-Off-From-G-d.htm
This goes on and on till EJA44 starts insulting me and accusing me of supporting or coddling this traitor. At that point he went off the deep end accusing me of all kinds of garbage. I got a bit aggravated that I spent so much time trying to help this guy and he stabbed me in the back.
My next post explored what exactly Karet is:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/mikra/5757/br/dt.58.1.03.html
VII
KARET - VIOLATION OF THE SPECIAL NATURE OF AM YISRA'EL
The punishment which is introduced (along with death) into the Shabbat vocabulary in our Parashah is Karet - excision. Whatever Karet may mean, it implies some sort of disconnection or excommunication (by God) from the people of Yisra'el.
The next post I ask whether this case can be considered a form of 'rodef':
Do you have a scriptural source from Tanakh or Talmud to support the statement 'This woman is no longer Jewish'?
I have never heard that a soul can shed it's Jewish nature. Even a very wicked Jew is still a Jew when they die.
A Jewish soul which has sinned is judged with ultimate judgement for its sins which instilled hatred against Jews.
Also can you prove to anyone that she rises to the level of the halachic term 'rodef'? I am not familiar with what she has done to warrant that accusation. Are you interpolating what you think she may think onto what was really done or said?
Then I checked out the facebook page and explained that the punishment of excommunication is not used today because we don't have an organization which can enforce it. Is this offensive?
Nobody can 'excommunicate' a Jew today. There is no Jewish body which has the power to do it. Although within a community a person can be excommunicated (only in social issues).
I just checked out the facebook page and it may be...
My next post was about the process of excommunication from jlaw.com:
From jlaw.com :
http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/excom2.html
II. Jewish Law on Excluding
So far I don't know what Chaim is talking about mentioning me in this post. I did not attack anyone, did not call anyone any names, was not being snarky about anything. I posted the Torah truth and then this guy started to get snotty with me.
My next post continued in the vein of exploring more information about exclusion and excommunication:
Let us look into what Rambam says about the halachic status of excommunication or ostracism.
http://www.torah.org/learning/rambam/talmudtorah/tt6.12.html
At this point he started complaining that people were 'bashing' him... I did not see this so I posted the following:
I missed it, who exactly is 'bashing' you?
I see people have become a bit sensitive over what seems to be nothing.
It is possible to agree with Chaim and also have your own opinion too.
If you see my very first message in the thread I clearly state that there are informers and heretics who we are supposed to curse. I have done nothing but support Chaims case.
But I also do not join in cursing her (by name) for the reasons which LKZ has mentioned. While I surely condemn her for her choices I also believe she (as all those born a Jew) has hope for making teshuva. That is between her and Hashem, and I join those who condemn her...
I don't know why these threads always end up so personal...
PS: Read what I wrote in a previous post about cursing the informers and heretics versus cursing a person by name.
At this point he began to belittle the Torah which I had brought, without even reading it...
Oy vey.. I am really growing sick of this thread.. Also, Muman, I respect you and think you have a good heart and a lot of knowledge, but the fact you believe a traitor to the Jewish race has the ability to do teshuva, regardless of their actions is mind-boggling and I am sure also contradicts many of the teachings of JUdaism. I have met people, including lesbian rabbis who think they can interpret the Talmud or Torah in any way, shape or form to promote their cause, it doesn't mean I will agree with them, even being a beginner in halachic knowledge, I can recognize some core foundations of our faith, as I have read the entire Jewish Bible and do have the basic knowledge.
Despite this I continue to try to deal with him rationally:
You are right EJA44, you have a lot to learn when it comes to Torah and Talmud...
You cannot just say stuff and claim it is the truth. Everything I have said is 100% true according to Talmud & Torah.
You have no concept of who can make Teshuva and who cannot. You have never attended a Yom Kippur service or else you never listened to the Rabbi discuss how Teshuva works. You only think you know what it means... And this is why you have so many problems understanding Judaism.
I can bring you many Talmudic examples of Jews who went astray and returned, and their Teshuva was eventually accepted. But you don't want to hear it because you just want to hate another. If that is not true you sure don't express yourself very well.
As an informer and a denier of Torah she is cursed as a part of this group. But when cursing others you should be extremely aware that your own sins will be judged for the negative. That is your choice, and you will live with it.
I tried again to engage him in discussion about the topic:
EJA44,
Bring some examples of those traitors who were executed and we can discuss what the teachings of the Talmud are.
Every Jew is a Jew to the day he dies... This is a fact of the Torah. Deniers of Torah are considered heretics.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1269075/jewish/Is-a-Jew-Who-Converts-Still-Jewish.htm
Is a Jew Who Converts Still Jewish?
By Zalman Nelson
My sister was baptized and has since married and had a child. My mother claims the child is Jewish, but how could that be? If Judaism is a religion, if someone leaves it, she’s no longer Jewish, right?
Response:
Logically, I would have to agree with you. If Judaism is a religion, then someone who doesn’t believe in the religion should be no longer Jewish. The reality, however, is that it doesn’t work that way.
Throughout the Tanach, we find Jews breaking every facet of their covenant with G‑d, joining and forming all sorts of idolatrous cults and heathen practices. Yet when the prophets chide them, they are called “My people, Israel.”
I still deal with him on a rational level at this point, asking him some questions intended to make him think about this topic:
EJA44,
Ask yourself this question and try to answer it...
Why did Hashem allow Ishmael to live when he was dying of dehydration in the desert when he and his mother Hagar were thrown out of Avraham and Sarahs house? Hashem could have let him die there, he knew that in the future his children would be enemies of his beloved people Israel, yet he saved him...
The ways of Hashem are beyond our comprehension. We should curse those who fall within the parameters where such curses are warranted. But we should not allow our curses against Jews to become a matter of hatred.
I say again that her sin is great and her wickedness is condemnable... I curse her as a informer and heretic. But I do hold hope that she one day will rectify her sins.
Remember that everything that happens only happens because Hashem allows it to happen. We must follow the law of Hashem, and keep the Torah, and when we do we will destroy the evil.
Then I support LKZ's assertion about non-religious Jews being considered as if they were captured by pirates as a baby:
Tag,
I believe LKZ is correct about a lot of the secular Jews today... They are considered as if they were kidnapped at birth by pirates or wolves...
It was a part of what I posted above concerning whether a Jew is still Jewish after he sins...
Again, is there anything offensive or bad for the forum that I posted so far?
I do not know the specifics about this case. In general a Jew who has lost his way, and even may flirt with heresy and informing, can be considered as if they are not acting as a proper Jew because they were kidnapped at birth.
I believe that was the concept which LKZ was referring to.
I have stated repeatedly how I consider this case.
Next I posted this:
For the source of this 'captured by gentiles' idea see Talmud Mesechet Shabbos 68a...
http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_68.html
And Tag and everyone else please be aware I am not talking about this particular case... I have said she falls into the category of informer/heretic... So she is on her own... She should be rebuked though by those who have the ability to change her... If possible.
At this point his constant defensive argument (that people were picking on him, myself included, and that I was supposedly supporting the traitor) started to irritate me and I said the following:
EJA44,
I am sorry you have come to this. I was a big supporter of you and I tried to help you. But you have no understanding of what being Jewish is.
I have never defended what is being done by this person. I have condemned it from the very beginning. Because of your failings you attribute things to me which I have not said. You say things which have no foundation because you feel you have the right to say such things. But you will learn that this is not the way Judaism works.
It is worthless for me to worry about your problems at this time. I hope and pray that some day you wake up from your delusions about what Judaism is and really study what it means to be a Jew. You and your false beliefs are what is wrong with the Jewish people. You are as bad as the reform for trying to make up your own Torah.
The students of Rabbi Akiva died because they did not respect each other. I attempted to respect you and what did I get, nothing but denigration from you (who denigrates himself regularly).
You are free to leave JTF because I am beginning to join those who think you came here to create problems. You put on a good act which had me almost fooled... But as I said, everyone who is born Jewish is Jewish for their life, and you too can take the initiative and do some learning.
Can someone please post what it is that I said which was offensive and bad for the forum?
I completely miss it and believe I have only been included in this drama in order to belittle me and my Torah knowledge.
I am very tired of defending myself from these accusations.
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