JTF.ORG Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wonga66 on November 15, 2010, 04:45:15 PM
-
Feiglin is a member of the Likud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feiglin
He was strongly anti-Pipi, had quite a following & some influence.
Why not a peek from him in the current farrago?! Has he been bought/threatened/in fear of he being injured like his son in "an accident"?!
(http://www.onejerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/feiglin.jpg)
-
Feiglin is a member of the Likud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feiglin
He was strongly anti-Pipi, had quite a following & some influence.
Why not a peek from him in the current farrago?!
Everyone knows he's against bibi. He has no seat in the govt.
Perhaps you don't read or watch the hebrew media and maybe that's why you don't hear any peeps.
In any case, what will his protest accomplish?
-
He's not much better than Lewinsky. He has denounced the Jewish saints Yigal Amir and Dr. Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood).
G-d, not P*nis Lewinsky, has kept him from gaining any kind of power or influence because of how he has desecrated the name of those two holy martyrs.
-
He's not much better than Lewinsky. He has denounced the Jewish saints Yigal Amir and Dr. Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood).
G-d, not P*nis Lewinsky, has kept him from gaining any kind of power or influence because of how he has desecrated the name of those two holy martyrs.
[/b]
That's rather presumptuous of you, but if those criteria really determined who takes power, surely Bibi, barak, and livni would be picking cherries on a plantation in Cambodia right about now. I think this type of view is silly, and in reality the reason he hasn't taken power is the failure of his strategy. With a better strategy or with more time, or other factors, he can take power like anyone else can.
Or, perhaps, he can't take power like anyone else outside the establishment can't. Either way, there is no "curse" from on high. Certainly not anything we are privy to.
-
1: Maybe G-d puts evil people in power to teach a lesson to the so-called righteous for their compromising, or failure to do what is right. That's the entire story of the Tanach and the punishments that happen to the Israelites.
2: Feiglin isn't the answer. His movement has existed for many, many years and it's smaller than Hayamin, which isn't even based in Israel.
3: We shouldn't be aspiring for Feiglin to take power. There are real Kahanists both within and outside of Israel who would do a much better job.
-
I never said Feiglin "is the answer."
I disputed your claim.
I also never said that G-d doesn't put evil people in power, but you claimed that the reason Feiglin is not in power is because G-d is preventing him since he supposedly said something against Jewish heroes. That's funny because shouldn't he then be PUT into power in order to teach Jews a lesson since you're trying to say he's so evil (chas veshalom - he is certainly a great man)? Make up your mind.
And when you say we shouldn't aspire for Feiglin to take power, I think that's insane. If Feiglin did take power, that would be a great day for the Jewish people and for the nation of Israel. Have you ever looked at his platform and what he wants for Israel?
JTF and hayamin disagree with Feiglin's strategy and maybe on some minor points but to say that it would be anything but a great day if he took power is just partisan blindness.
Btw, name me those kahanists inside israel who would do a better job and what have they done compared to what he has done? A whole lot of nothing. Come on.
-
I never said Feiglin "is the answer."
I disputed your claim.
If he is willing to slander the names, and in the case of one the memory, of two Jewish saints just for political correctness, do you not think that that demonstrates that he would be willing to make unpleasant compromises?
I also never said that G-d doesn't put evil people in power, but you claimed that the reason Feiglin is not in power is because G-d is preventing him since he supposedly said something against Jewish heroes.
Lewinsky, Holemert, Hitler, etc. don't pretend to be great people or the answer. Feiglin on the other hand runs as a reformist, an alternative, a solution-maker. He presents himself as a figure of light, and yes, I do think G-d will hold him to a higher standard for that.
That's funny because shouldn't he then be PUT into power in order to teach Jews a lesson since you're trying to say he's so evil (chas veshalom - he is certainly a great man)? Make up your mind.
How is he a great man if he made a blood libel against the memory of one of the holiest Jewish men in history? Name three Israelis today that you know for a fact would be willing to sacrifice their lives right now to save other Jews from an Arab massacre.
And when you say we shouldn't aspire for Feiglin to take power, I think that's insane. If Feiglin did take power, that would be a great day for the Jewish people and for the nation of Israel. Have you ever looked at his platform and what he wants for Israel?
He's an improvement over Lewinsky and the rest of the current batch of losers. That's all I will say. Maybe he would completely crumble and sell out once in power just like Begin did. I can't prove that he will but he is secular and secular people, in the end, will cave because they have no deeper truths that they stand on.
JTF and hayamin disagree with Feiglin's strategy and maybe on some minor points but to say that it would be anything but a great day if he took power is just partisan blindness.
I would call the issue of making a blood libel against a martyred Jewish hero more than a "minor point".
Btw, name me those kahanists inside israel who would do a better job and what have they done compared to what he has done? A whole lot of nothing. Come on.
Michael Ben-Ari, Noam Federman, etc.
-
Feiglin here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlIuywN5WQ is no Kahane.
But he's about as rightwing as you're currently able to get away with in Israel without being jailed.
-
But he's about as rightwing as you're currently able to get away with in Israel without being jailed.
He is not required by law to denounce the saints Amir and Goldstein. That is BS.
-
"saint" in Hebrew is tzaddik. Baruch has been called "gever" and "hakodosh", & Yigal "hakanoy".
But "tzaddik" is generally reserved in unsere schprach for the exceptional like R.Kahane.
And there are real doubts whether Amir & Goldstein ever actually killed anybody!
-
I never said Feiglin "is the answer."
I disputed your claim.
If he is willing to slander the names, and in the case of one the memory, of two Jewish saints just for political correctness, do you not think that that demonstrates that he would be willing to make unpleasant compromises?
I also never said that G-d doesn't put evil people in power, but you claimed that the reason Feiglin is not in power is because G-d is preventing him since he supposedly said something against Jewish heroes.
Lewinsky, Holemert, Hitler, etc. don't pretend to be great people or the answer. Feiglin on the other hand runs as a reformist, an alternative, a solution-maker. He presents himself as a figure of light, and yes, I do think G-d will hold him to a higher standard for that.
It still doesn't give a rational basis for your nutty view that he's cursed or that God doesn't like him.
That's funny because shouldn't he then be PUT into power in order to teach Jews a lesson since you're trying to say he's so evil (chas veshalom - he is certainly a great man)? Make up your mind.
How is he a great man if he made a blood libel against the memory of one of the holiest Jewish men in history? Name three Israelis today that you know for a fact would be willing to sacrifice their lives right now to save other Jews from an Arab massacre.
Made a blood libel? Wow you're going overboard. I still haven't seen these supposed quotes.
And when you say we shouldn't aspire for Feiglin to take power, I think that's insane. If Feiglin did take power, that would be a great day for the Jewish people and for the nation of Israel. Have you ever looked at his platform and what he wants for Israel?
He's an improvement over Lewinsky and the rest of the current batch of losers. That's all I will say. Maybe he would completely crumble and sell out once in power just like Begin did. I can't prove that he will but he is secular and secular people, in the end, will cave because they have no deeper truths that they stand on.
No, he isn't! He is not secular, he's religious zionist! Where do you get this stuff from?
JTF and hayamin disagree with Feiglin's strategy and maybe on some minor points but to say that it would be anything but a great day if he took power is just partisan blindness.
I would call the issue of making a blood libel against a martyred Jewish hero more than a "minor point".
This is new for me. What do you mean by "make a blood libel" against a person?
And didn't you admit to me a few days ago that you hadn't even seen the quote yourself but thought that you heard Chaim mention it once? How can you be so sure about something which is a vague recollection? So sure of it to not only call it "slander" but to also claim it's a blood libel (again, what does that mean?) ? This is not befitting you dbf.
Btw, name me those kahanists inside israel who would do a better job and what have they done compared to what he has done? A whole lot of nothing. Come on.
Michael Ben-Ari, Noam Federman, etc.
[/quote]
And Michael Ben Ari achieved what that is on such a scale greater than Moshe Feiglin?
Noam Federman is not a politician so it's not even relevant to this.
-
I will send Chaim a PM about this. He has given the exact quotes before on Ask JTF but I don't remember them verbatim. They were in one of Feiglin's books.
-
You said "kahanists" as if it's some kind of huge stable of people waiting to do something vast. There is no such movement anymore, there are individuals out there who have point of views similar to Kahane (or were once his students), and Moshe Feiglin is one of those people actually. There are also a bunch of people who call themselves "kahanists" but do nothing and achieve nothing. In either case, if Moshe Feiglin achieved his plan it would be a great day in Jewish history. The problem is it hasn't worked and probably won't within likud party.
-
I will send Chaim a PM about this. He has given the exact quotes before on Ask JTF but I don't remember them verbatim. They were in one of Feiglin's books.
Ok, but the fact that you thought Feiglin was secular shows that you really don't know who he is or what he's about.
-
I really thought that he was, my mistake.
-
"saint" in Hebrew is tzaddik. Baruch has been called "gever" and "hakodosh", & Yigal "hakanoy".
But "tzaddik" is generally reserved in unsere schprach for the exceptional like R.Kahane.
And there are real doubts whether Amir & Goldstein ever actually killed anybody!
How many people saw Amir kill Rabin? Who killed the Arabs who died in the cave the night Goldstein went there and fired his weapon? Conspiracy theories are not a way to deal with reality.
-
He's not much better than Lewinsky. He has denounced the Jewish saints Yigal Amir and Dr. Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood).
G-d, not P*nis Lewinsky, has kept him from gaining any kind of power or influence because of how he has desecrated the name of those two holy martyrs.
So a great Jew who has worked and at times suffered for his beliefs is useless because he does not agree with assassinations and indiscriminate killing? Chaim would tell you that Feiglin is a good Jew and a good man. To hate someone every time you find something you disagree with is a hard way to go through life. You end up hating everyone because there is always something you disagree on and you will always find it.
-
He's not much better than Lewinsky. He has denounced the Jewish saints Yigal Amir and Dr. Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood).
G-d, not P*nis Lewinsky, has kept him from gaining any kind of power or influence because of how he has desecrated the name of those two holy martyrs.
So a great Jew who has worked and at times suffered for his beliefs is useless because he does not agree with assassinations and indiscriminate killing? Chaim would tell you that Feiglin is a good Jew and a good man. To hate someone every time you find something you disagree with is a hard way to go through life. You end up hating everyone because there is always something you disagree on and you will always find it.
Bravo!
Yes, I too believe that Feiglin is a good Jew and his prayers are for a strong Jewish state in Eretz Yisroel. It is ludicrous to denigrate him for this. It is a pretty strong accusation that DBF makes.
-
בס''ד
Moshe Feiglin is a good Jew but the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
Feiglin has strenghtened the Likud by remaining in that evil traitorous party. Feiglin urges Israeli rightwingers to vote for the Likud.
Feiglin has also diverted many Jewish activists from working to build more Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria. Fieglin has convinced them to instead devote their time and energy and money to taking over the Likud, something which will never happen.
Fieglin has raised and spent millions of dollars on his futile campaigns. If JTF had that type of money, I believe we would already be a mass movement and Israel would be a different country.
We certainly must not hate Feiglin, G-d forbid, he is a good Jew and a loyal Jew. But we must recognize that his mistakes have cost the Jewish people dearly.
DBF is correct that Feiglin publicly condemned Dr. Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir. I consider Feiglin's condemnations to be appalling. In his book, "In A Place Where There Are No Men", Feiglin devotes an entire chapter (perek yud, Chapter 10) to "The Murder of Rabin". When Jewish heroes are willing to give their lives to save the Jewish people, I think it is despicable to condemn them. If Feiglin does not have the guts to defend them, then he should at least say nothing. But to condemn them is disgraceful, in my view.
I hope that Feiglin will finally realize that he has made a terrible mistake, G-d willing.
-
בס''ד
Moshe Feiglin is a good Jew but the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
Feiglin has strenghtened the Likud by remaining in that evil traitorous party. Feiglin urges Israeli rightwingers to vote for the Likud.
Feiglin has also diverted many Jewish activists from working to build more Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria. Fieglin has convinced them to instead devote their time and energy and money to taking over the Likud, something which will never happen.
Fieglin has raised and spent millions of dollars on his futile campaigns. If JTF had that type of money, I believe we would already be a mass movement and Israel would be a different country.
We certainly must not hate Feiglin, G-d forbid, he is a good Jew and a loyal Jew. But we must recognize that his mistakes have cost the Jewish people dearly.
DBF is correct that Feiglin publicly condemned Dr. Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir. I consider Feiglin's condemnations to be appalling. In his book, "In A Place Where There Are No Men", Feiglin devotes an entire chapter (perek yud, Chapter 10) to "The Murder of Rabin". When Jewish heroes are willing to give their lives to save the Jewish people, I think it is despicable to condemn them. If Feiglin does not have the guts to defend them, then he should at least say nothing. But to condemn them is disgraceful, in my view.
I hope that Feiglin will finally realize that he has made a terrible mistake, G-d willing.
If haymin took over the knesset would you consider feiglin for a seat
-
Ron brought an interesting quote from Feiglin in a recent thread :
"Read Feiglin's book "In A Place With No People" chapter 10 ("The Murder of Rabin").
He condemns and smears him, saying: "I strongly condemn this criminal murder.." and "I couldn't sleep all night. A murder of a Prime Minister in Israel - the State of the Jews - was an impossible thing for me, beyond all imagination. For some reason I thought that it can't happen in our place. Something was destroyed in that night, when the Israeli society lost its innocence in the freezing smile of a psycopath." (page 168)"
Not exactly a Kahanist point of view... I agree that, at least, Feiglin should have kept silent. Condemning Amir in such a virulent way without saying a word about all the evil Rabin has done, starting with his prominent role in the Altalena massacre, is disgusting.
-
Consider the practical impact of Rabin's assassination. Pro settler Jews have been marginalized. One secular anti Oslo Jew noted that after the assassination he stopped seeing Jews without Kippahs at demonstrations. If Feiglin is a well meaning Jew whose mistakes have cost us, Amir is the same on steroids. Can someone tell me one positive result of Rabin's killing?
-
The conspiracists will tell you that Rabin was actually on the verge of pulling out of Oslo, and that he was taken out by TPTB. In which case his death was a bad thing!
OTOH, Guzofsky stated at the time: "Who cares who killed Rabin! The main thing is that he's dead!"
Or to quote Stalin: "What's the problem? Kill the man!"
(http://www.frgdr.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/hussein_and_rabin_smoking_cigarettes.jpg)
-
The conspiracists will tell you that Rabin was actually on the verge of pulling out of Oslo,
The only problem is, there is no evidence to support this.
-
"PERES STAGE MANAGING RABIN'S MURDER
In remembrance of the 15th anniversary of the Rabin assassination on Nov. 4, an alternative explanation is floating widely around with the subject:hero rabin was murdered by peres for "peace".
The evidence is Rabin's newly rediscovered last speech to The Knesset, on October 5, 1995, in which he defies the Peres/Oslo "peace" process with the declaration that,
"We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines ...First and foremost, united Jerusalem ...as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty."
"The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley... The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif."
My readers have read this claim from me for 13+ years and I didn't need specious Knesset evidence as sole proof. I caught and exposed Peres backstage, stage-directing the Rabin
hit. This series is merely a fraction of the evidence I sent to a Hebrew site:
http://conspil.com/2010/10/18/15rabin/
(http://conspil.com/wp-content/uploads/watch.jpg)
Visit there even if you don't read Hebrew. You'll get much from all the photos. Follow the sequences of events:
Photos 1 and 2 - Defying protocol, Peres precedes
Rabin, walks down the back steps of the rally, shakes a few hands, turns
right and walks some fifteen feet to Ibn Gvirol Street to greet more
well-wishers.
Photos 3,4 and 5- Peres returns and is headed towards his
car, the first limo in line, when he stops in front of Rabin's limo and
engages in a discussion with secret service personnel. We see an
ambulance a few feet from Rabin's vehicle. If anything were to happen to
the Prime Minister, trained paramedics were there to immediately tend to
him.
Which is why Photo 6 is so significant. Rabin's scheduled
driver was replaced at the last minute by Menachem Damti. In this photo,
Peres deems it essential that he have a little talk with Rabin's driver.
Why? What could Peres possibly have said to Rabin's driver? "Now
drive carefully and make sure Yitzhak gets home safe and sound?"
In fact, Peres called Damti to him for many reasons, but one was to make sure as soon as Rabin's bodyguard Yoram Rubin pushed him into the limo, that Damti took off to Ichilov Hospital, 2 minutes away. There could be no time for the paramedics to get to him first.
Beating the paramedics to the punch required instantaneous reaction, because in photos 7 and 8, taken as soon as Amir's blank bullets were discharged at 9:30, two ambulance teams jumped into action within a fraction of a second.
"
-
Rabin's newly rediscovered last speech to The Knesset, on October 5, 1995, in which he defies the Peres/Oslo "peace" process with the declaration that,
"We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines ...First and foremost, united Jerusalem ...as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty."
"The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley... The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif."[/color]
This is coming from the same criminal who once said that they will never talk to the PLO terrorists because he doesn't negotiate with terrorists. Come on, do you really expect us to belief this nonsense?
Perhaps this was only his initial bargaining stance and would negotiate from there. You are acting like a few things he referred to in a speech was a religious dogma he followed.
How many Israeli prime ministers have told us that Jerusalem will not be divided, including Bibi (And now they are dividing it), and how many told us that we would not retreat to the Auschwitz borders (And yet they want to do this)? Your position makes no logical sense, and it requires a great deal of leap in faith to believe in it. A leap of faith fitting only for a very naive and gullible person.
You want to believe Rabin backed out, and therefore you believe.
You want to believe Peres "took him out" because of misgivings, and therefore you believe.
-
Rabin's newly rediscovered last speech to The Knesset, on October 5, 1995, in which he defies the Peres/Oslo "peace" process with the declaration that,
"We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines ...First and foremost, united Jerusalem ...as the capital of Israel, under Israeli sovereignty."
"The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley... The establishment of blocs of settlements in Judea and Samaria, like the one in Gush Katif."[/color]
This is coming from the same criminal who once said that they will never talk to the PLO terrorists because he doesn't negotiate with terrorists. Come on, do you really expect us to belief this nonsense?
Perhaps this was only his initial bargaining stance and would negotiate from there. You are acting like a few things he referred to in a speech was a religious dogma he followed.
How many Israeli prime ministers have told us that Jerusalem will not be divided, including Bibi (And now they are dividing it), and how many told us that we would not retreat to the Auschwitz borders (And yet they want to do this)? Your position makes no logical sense, and it requires a great deal of leap in faith to believe in it. A leap of faith fitting only for a very naive and gullible person.
You want to believe Rabin backed out, and therefore you believe.
You want to believe Peres "took him out" because of misgivings, and therefore you believe.
Nethanyahu and Sharon said similar things.
-
The conspiracists will tell you that Rabin was actually on the verge of pulling out of Oslo,
The only problem is, there is no evidence to support this.
To the contrary he was at a celebration of Oslo when he was killed.
-
So Feiglin is only slightly above the Rubins who condemned Pollard
-
So Feiglin is only slightly above the Rubins who condemned Pollard
No, not really.
Do you know how many times Moshe Feiglin has visited Pollard in jail and openly called upon the Israeli govt to bring about his release?
Do you know how often Feiglin has said the disengagement must be resisted?
Do not compare Feiglin with the animals who said Sharon is king and Jews must go.
-
Feiglin is the best of the establishment, or the worst of the reformist right, depending on whether you are a glass half-full/glass half-empty guy.
I said he would be an improvement over the Israeli regime, but he's not the real answer. Hayamin is.
-
He's really not part of the establishment. The establishment calls him a fascist and has tried to compare him to Hitler y's.
-
(http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/images/members/rabinpilosof_dalia.jpg)
http://israelinsider.net/profiles/blogs/dalia-rabin-my-father
Dalia Rabin: My father considered stopping the Oslo process due to terrorism.
The daughter of Yitzhak Rabin confirmed what until now only "conspiracy theorists" have dared to claim: that on the eve of his mysterious assassination he was seriously considering declaring an end to the "Oslo" process because of the terrorist attacks. Dalia Rabin-Philosoph, interviewed in the Seven Days magazine supplement of Yediot Ahronot, published Friday, 8 October, said: "Many people who were close to father told me that on the eve of the murder he considered stopping the Oslo process because of the terror that was running rampant in the streets and that Arafat wasn't delivering the goods."
"Father, after all, wasn't a blind man running forward without thought. I don't rule out the possibility that he considered also doing a reverse on
our side. After all, he was someone for whom the security of the state was sacrosanct.
"So they say that Oslo brought Arafat and gave them rifles and caused the intifada. But historical processes develop, change and flow. It is
impossible to take a person murdered in '95 and judge him according to what happened in 2000," she said.
Those who have claimed that Rabin's second thoughts about concessions to the Palestinians may have cost him his life have long been marginalized for believing that left-leaning, foreign-funded forces used a faction inside Israel's Shin Bet domestic security to eliminate Rabin and replace him with the unreservedly dovish Shimon Peres, who became PM after the assassination and now serves as Israel's President.
Those who believe that there was a conspiracy say that convicted assassin Yigal Amir was a patsy. Dalia Rabin's statement that her father was considering "reversing" the bloody "peace process" provides a motive for why the left, not the right, may have wanted Rabin replaced.
-
Clinton must have killed Rabin the Clintons have a long history of killing business rivals
-
KWRBT: At one time Avigwhore Lieberman, Israel's Pruneface, was also called a "racist" and anti-establishment and that was obviously a shell game that the regime was playing in order to fool gullible Russian Jewish voters. I'm not saying Feiglin is in his category by any stretch, or that he will ever be treated well by the establishment, but the fact of the matter is that he wants to be part of the establishment. He is a Likud member and urges Israelis to vote Likud. He makes politically-correct statements to make himself more acceptable to the establishment. If that isn't establishment, what is?
Wonga: Are you really telling us that we should take the word of the daughter of a Nazi-collaborating slimeball?
-
Kahane was called "a Nazi". Chaim has been called "a Nazi". Chamish has been called a "Nazi-toady". Feiglin has been called a "Nazi-racist". Ben Gvir, Marzel, Federman etc have been called "Nazi-lackeys". And now Rabin's daughter a "Nazi-collaborator"!
Is there anyone who isn't "a Nazi"?! There people who'd call you a "Nazi-shill" for frequenting this forum!
Together with Rabin's October 1995 Knesset speech, I believe her.
And that would give "TPTB-NWO" more than enough motive to take Rabin out, install Peres and take the Right down all at the same time, thanks to the "Nazi-murderer" Amir!
-
Kahane was called "a Nazi". Chaim has been called "a Nazi". Chamish has been called a "Nazi-toady". Feiglin has been called a "Nazi-racist". Ben Gvir, Marzel, Federman etc have been called "Nazi-lackeys". And now Rabin's daughter a "Nazi-collaborator"!
Is there anyone who isn't "a Nazi"?! There people who'd call you a "Nazi-shill" for frequenting this forum!
Together with Rabin's October 1995 Knesset speech, I believe her.
And that would give "TPTB-NWO" more than enough motive to take Rabin out, install Peres and take the Right down all at the same time, thanks to the "Nazi-murderer" Amir!
When assessing who to believe you should go by the facts that you know instead of what you hope for. The undisputable fact is that Rabin was attending a rally celebrating Oslo when he was killed. That outweighs any loose talk about how Oslo wasn't working out like he hoped. Do you think Sharon and Nethanyahu have not at times told people that Arafat, Abbas, Bush, Obama are liars, not lived up to promises, announced a red line that cannot be crossed yet is, etc. Yet they keep going back for more. Everyone at this point knows that Oslo has been a fiasco but nobody knows how to walk away from it. It is one of the great ironies of life.
-
Dalia Rabin: My father considered stopping the Oslo process due to terrorism.
What does it mean "consider?" He had a thought.
So who read his mind and decided to kill him?
This is ridiculous. Maybe once or twice he thought to himself, "maybe I'm actually an idiot." But that didn't stop him from shaking arafats hand inviting his thugs and promoting his peace charade in the "rabin square"
His daughter is trying to save face for her father's "glorious legacy" because she knows THE PUBLIC IS AGAINST OSLO.
-
KWRBT: At one time Avigwhore Lieberman, Israel's Pruneface, was also called a "racist" and anti-establishment
But he's clearly not.
DBF, you don't know who Feiglin is or what he's about. Give this a rest. He cannot be called part of the establishment by any stretch of imagination. By the phonies in his party, including Bibi, he is considered a "usurper" who is trying to take over the party and turn it into religious zionism (or fascism, or whatever their stupid accusations are). He has said from the beginning he's trying to take over the likud from within, and that is his strategy to achieve the goal of a JEWISH Israel. A Jewish Israel is anti the establishment by definition because they do not want a Jewish state.
JTF disagrees with Moshe on his tactics, on his strategy that he is using to achieve his goal. Chaim has said it hurts the national camp and diverts resources. But you are extending that argument to say that his goals are wrong and he's a phony rightwinger like bibi. No one can possibly claim that !
Do you know that he led the only meaningful protest movement against the Oslo accords when they first came about? Do you know that he and a small group of activists called Zo Artzeinu got many thousands of people to flood the streets and bring traffic to a stop in protest of oslo? He began his political career after seeing that the protests by themselves aren't enough, especially when they succeeded in a "rightwing revolution" in the aftermath when bibi got elected to replace peres, but then he turned around and continued the disastrous policy of the left rather than uprooting it.
he wants to be part of the establishment.
Not really. He wants to take it over (and change it) from within. He thinks it can only be achieved by fighting from within the system in order to then break the system and change it. What you are saying is incorrect.
-
KWRBT: At one time Avigwhore Lieberman, Israel's Pruneface, was also called a "racist" and anti-establishment
But he's clearly not.
DBF, you don't know who Feiglin is or what he's about. Give this a rest. He cannot be called part of the establishment by any stretch of imagination. By the phonies in his party, including Bibi, he is considered a "usurper" who is trying to take over the party and turn it into religious zionism (or fascism, or whatever their stupid accusations are). He has said from the beginning he's trying to take over the likud from within, and that is his strategy to achieve the goal of a JEWISH Israel. A Jewish Israel is anti the establishment by definition because they do not want a Jewish state.
JTF disagrees with Moshe on his tactics, on his strategy that he is using to achieve his goal. Chaim has said it hurts the national camp and diverts resources. But you are extending that argument to say that his goals are wrong and he's a phony rightwinger like bibi. No one can possibly claim that !
Do you know that he led the only meaningful protest movement against the Oslo accords when they first came about? Do you know that he and a small group of activists called Zo Artzeinu got many thousands of people to flood the streets and bring traffic to a stop in protest of oslo? He began his political career after seeing that the protests by themselves aren't enough, especially when they succeeded in a "rightwing revolution" in the aftermath when bibi got elected to replace peres, but then he turned around and continued the disastrous policy of the left rather than uprooting it.
he wants to be part of the establishment.
Not really. He wants to take it over (and change it) from within. He thinks it can only be achieved by fighting from within the system in order to then break the system and change it. What you are saying is incorrect.
Here is an interview of Feiglin that, I think, pretty much substantiates what you say :
http://www.jewishmag.com/107mag/feiglin/feiglin.htm
I must say I do have sympathy for Feiglin. He is a good Jew and a good person in general. But his political tactics are very questionable. Maybe he is too naive.
-
I didn't say he was scum of the earth, or useless, or as bad as Lewinsky--nothing of the sort. However, the fact that he is a Likud member, believes in empowering the Likud (even if his motives are better than Lewinsky's), believes that "reforming" the Likud is the answer, and especially the fact that he treacherously denounced two Jews much more righteous than he is, one of whom died saving Jewish lives, are all ample proof that he is establishment or at least wants to be establishment. Would I vote for him if the choice were him vs. Lewinsky, Hitler, or Holemert? Obviously, but it doesn't mean that he would have been my first choice.
Getting criticized by the establishment doesn't mean you are anti-establishment. I'm sure you remember when the clowns Newt Gingrich, Bob Barr, etc. were called militants, extremists, right-wing radicals, etc. by the Democratic Party and the media. Did that make them so? Were they real revolutionaries of any sort?
-
are all ample proof that he is establishment or at least wants to be establishment.
I don't find the things you listed as proof of anything like that.
Getting criticized by the establishment doesn't mean you are anti-establishment.
I didn't say that that in itself makes him anti-establishment. You are ignoring the bigger picture. It's simple: at this point in time, Jewish state = anti-establishment.
I'm sure you remember when the clowns Newt Gingrich, Bob Barr, etc. were called militants, extremists, right-wing radicals, etc. by the Democratic Party and the media. Did that make them so? Were they real revolutionaries of any sort?
No comparison.
-
I don't find the things you listed as proof of anything like that.
How are they not?
I'd probably call Feiglin the Mike Huckabee of Israel--the best candidate that's out there right now, quite a bit superior to anybody in power, sincerely caring for Israel, but still a member of the establishment, with plenty of flaws.
I didn't say that that in itself makes him anti-establishment. You are ignoring the bigger picture. It's simple: at this point in time, Jewish state = anti-establishment.
I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. Yes he supports the survival of the Jewish people but his tactics for doing so--working within and becoming a part of the establishment, and reassuring the Bolshevik regime that he hates the "extremists" Amir and Goldstein (may the L-rd avenge his blood)--are solidly and firmly establishment tactics.
No comparison.
It was meant to be an exaggerated example to prove a point, not a 1:1 analogy. I already compared him to Huckabee, which I think Chaim and most Jews would call perfectly fair.
-
I don't find the things you listed as proof of anything like that.
How are they not?
I'd probably call Feiglin the Mike Huckabee of Israel--the best candidate that's out there right now, quite a bit superior to anybody in power, sincerely caring for Israel, but still a member of the establishment, with plenty of flaws.
There is no human being who does not have flaws.
That doesn't make him an "establishment politician." Sorry.
As to 'how are they not' - because there's no connection.
I didn't say that that in itself makes him anti-establishment. You are ignoring the bigger picture. It's simple: at this point in time, Jewish state = anti-establishment.
I don't think it's quite that cut and dry. Yes he supports the survival of the Jewish people but his tactics for doing so--working within and becoming a part of the establishment, and reassuring the Bolshevik regime that he hates the "extremists" Amir and Goldstein (may the L-rd avenge his blood)--are solidly and firmly establishment tactics.
It's funny to me that you phrase it like this, so self-assured about what you think you know of Moshe. Did you ever stop to think that maybe it's simply his opinion, and he is not saying anything for anyone else's benefit but because he actually believes it? What is so impossible that he actually believes that it's wrong to kill vigilante style? I don't see an indication that says to me he's saying that to make the establishment like him. He says enough things that make them hate him. To me it may just be that's how he feels about it, right or wrong.
"He supports the survival of the Jewish people" - well, yes, he does, but I said something far more significant than that- He promotes the notion of a Jewish state and his policies aim at this goal. At this point in time, this notion is anti-establishment. Very cut and dry.
-
Feiglin has said that if he was Israeli PM, he would answer Obama and the World about Israel's right to exist and the Jewish claim to the Land of Israel solely with English & Hebrew verses slowly quoted on a podium from a giant Gold-Leafed Tanach, with audio-visual display.
That would be something new, something even R.Kahane didn't do, and would win many goyim over, including the Arabs, and even placate, defang and reconcile them.
Of course the unbelievably evil Erev Rav in Israel would ensure that Feiglin would be dead within the hour of his first "Biblical" News Conference, such is their hatred of true Torah!
The conspiracists will tell you that those like Feglin and Nadia Matar, have been silent since their sons' car 'accidents' in the West Bank, like so many other rabbis and leaders in Yesha, and their families, who have had scores of crashes with Arabs vehicles, under Shabak and PLO joint command.
(http://www.chabad.info/images/news/5316/531599.jpg)
And that even Benny Begin's son's jet was "crashed" to take him totally out of the political loop for 8 years.
-
Feiglin has said that if he was Israeli PM, he would answer Obama and the World about Israel's right to exist and the Jewish claim to the Land of Israel solely with English & Hebrew verses slowly quoted on a podium from a giant Gold-Leafed Tanach, with audio-visual display.
;D ;D ;D
That would be something new, something even R.Kahane didn't do, and would win many goyim over, including the Arabs, and even placate, defang and reconcile them.
Perhaps.
Of course the unbelievably evil Erev Rav in Israel would ensure that Feiglin would be dead within the hour of his first "Biblical" News Conference, such is their hatred of true Torah!
G-d forbid, but I don't doubt they would try something like that.
The conspiracists will tell you that those like Feglin and Nadia Matar, have been silent since their sons' car 'accidents' in the West Bank, like so many other rabbis and leaders in Yesha, and their families, who have had scores of crashes with Arabs vehicles, under Shabak and PLO joint command.
And that even Benny Begin's son's jet was "crashed" to take him totally out of the political loop for 8 years.
I'm not really a "conspiracist type" but honestly this does worry me. It would be incredibly sick and evil if they did that on purpose to Moshe's son or to these other people. I guess that is how mafia's work, though, so it is worrisome.
-
Btw, speaking of Feiglin, his son miraculously awoke from his coma a few months ago! I had no idea that this happened since I have been in the US. This is great news!
http://www.worldofjudaica.com/jewish-news/israel/moshe-feiglin-son-wakes-from-coma-i/657/19/
Moshe Feiglin’s Miracle: His son David Wakes up from Coma (Part I)
15 minutes before the beginning of the Yom Kippur fast, David, son of Moshe Feiglin, woke up from a 3-month coma after a car accident. “When something like this happens to a man, he examines his deeds,” says the Likud’s bad boy to Yediot Acharonot.
(Translated from Ynet)
By Moshe Ronen
It happened on the 28th of June, towards evening. 16 year old volunteer David Feiglin and two older firefighters had just finished their shift at the fire station in Alfe Menashe and were on their way home in one of the other firefighter’s cars. Another car made a sudden U-turn on the entrance road to the town without giving the right of way and hit them, throwing them into a street light. The two firefighters were lightly wounded. David was critically wounded and was transported to the hospital unconscious with his life in real danger.
In the three months that passed since then, his parents set up a makeshift bed next to his hospital bed and have stayed with him 24 hours a day. His father, Moshe Feiglin, chairman of the Manhigut Yehudit (Jewish Leadership) faction of the Likud, spent the three day Rosh Hashanah holiday at his bedside. The center of the Feiglins’ lives has moved to their son’s room, the fourth of five children. First it was Schneider Hospital in Petach Tikva, and afterwards the rehabilitation wing of Safra Children’s Hospital in Tel HaShomer.
“Leading up to Yom Kippur we decided that my wife would stay with David,” Feiglin retells, “and I would go back home to Ginot Shomron to be with our youngest son Avraham.”
Feiglin arrived at his home in the afternoon and went to have his pre Yom Kippur meal by neighbors. Shortly before the beginning of the fast he went out to the empty street and called his wife at the hospital. “I asked her to put me on speaker so I could speak to David,” he says, and explains that as the months passed since the accident, the family has been vigilant about speaking to the wounded boy despite the lack of response.
Just like every other time, Feiglin held the phone and said “Shalom David,” insistent on talking to the unconscious youngster, not really expecting any response. But David, in a frail voice, answered one word. “Shalom.”
“I’m alone in the street, 15 minutes before the beginning of the holy day, and my wife screams: ‘Did you hear? Did you hear? He said Shalom!’ Chills swept through my body. I heard her say to him: ‘Say it again’ and he said, again, ‘Shalom’ in a weak but clear voice. I could hear it well on the telephone,” says Feiglin with excitement that was almost tangible. Immediately, at that moment, in the middle of the empty street, he says the shehchayanu blessing. “This Yom Kippur was full of excitement. I got my son back. That night I thought about [the Biblical character] Chana, who when she was given a son she sang, ‘my heart rejoices in God.’ I felt like her. My heart rejoiced.”
A New Ideological Playing Field
Moshe Feiglin’s exactness is well known by anyone who has been reading newspapers these past 16 years. Face to face he is even more impressive: Very tall, thin, nearly an asceticist.
He is described in the newspapers as a dangerous and extreme right winger. They typecast him as the Bad Boy, the cunning and unwanted one who forced himself on the Likud. They’ve called him a provocateur, a black sheep that infuriates Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
This is the man that in 2005 resigned from the Likud Knesset list claiming that he “fears entering a bottle that’s in [Israeli Supreme Court Chief Justice] Aharon Barak’s pocket,” the man that in 2007 received close to a quarter of the votes in the primaries for the party’s leadership, who was elected to the 20th slot on the Likud list, but was moved to an unrealistic slot after an appeal was filed to the party’s internal court. This is also the man who caused Netanyahu to threaten his colleagues on the Likud Knesset list that anyone who makes a deal with Feiglin will not be appointed a cabinet minister.
He is described as a cold, dangerous man, a megalomaniac that does not make friends with anyone and does not reveal any emotion. But in the children’s rehabilitation wing that has transformed into his second home, I met a warm, heartfelt man, who talks a lot but is also willing to listen, who well understands that his opinions are far from the consensus.
Moshe Feiglin was born in Haifa 48 years ago to a family that has in its ranks, according to him, Haredim and leftists, Meretz voters, supporters of right wing parties and dedicated followers of United Torah Judaism. His mother is religious and his father secular, and one of his sisters works in the State prosecutor’s office. He has, he says, a good and close relationship with all of them. “Despite the differences of opinion, we are a warm family.”
He grew up in Rehovot, where he also met his wife Tzipi, then a new immigrant from the United States. He studied in the Or Etzion Yeshiva High School, served in the Israel Defense Forces as a combat engineer, and was discharged with the rank of Captain. After his release, he founded the first rappelling window washing company in Israel, and as he cleaned the windows of the diamond exchange building in Ramat Gan hanging from a rope, he became familiar with the security procedures at the building and decided to found a start-up high tech company that would “streamline and optimize security.”
But his business ventures were nipped in the bud. When Feiglin was 30, the Oslo Accords were signed and he stood at the head of their detractors. Together with Shmuel Sackett and Rabbi Benny Elon, he founded and led the Zo Artzeinu movement, and in August 1995 he brought out 100,000 demonstrators that blocked traffic at 80 intersections throughout the country. “A Stopped-Up State” read the next day’s front headline in Yediot Acharonot. (Translator’s note: The original word used for “Stopped-Up” has a double meaning along the lines of “stupid bimbo” in Hebrew.)
The movement, he says, was a safe springboard into politics. But the offers that came, according to him, from every right wing party did not interest him. “I didn’t want to get involved in politics. I fought against the accords and I wanted to get back to my business.”
-
Here is part 2 of that article:
Later, in 1997, he was found guilty of sedition against the sate and publishing seditious material and was sentenced to 18 months in prison and served six in community service.
The sedition trial drew him into the public eye where he has remained ever since. Today he is the head of Manhigut Yehudit which is funded—entirely he emphasizes—by donations. But Feiglin admits that he has changed. “I am no longer in a constant battle. I am not contending against any one person, not demonstrating. But I have not broken. I am now involved in education. I am building a new ideological playing field.”
What does that mean?
“Without God, the Zionist enterprise cannot successfully justify its very existence. With our own two hands we have stripped away the legitimacy of our existence as an independent state, and that is more threatening than a nuclear bomb. Before the kill comes the stripping of legitimacy.”
You are very pessimistic. Are you predicting the end of the State?
“I’m not pessimistic. I see the deep processes of the search for Jewish meaning and am trying to give them political expression. To create a Jewish State.”
In a state like that, does a secular person have to keep Mitzvot? Will courts adjudicate according to Halacha?
“No. Judaism is first and foremost freedom. The meaning of a Jewish state is that every Jew in the world will be able to vote. Not the state of Israelis, but the state of Jews. When a flotilla comes from Turkey and Obama throws our Prime Minister down the stairs, the nation feels like the plank it is standing on just got a little thinner under our feet. I want the Israeli citizen to feel like he has the option of moving to a different playing field.”
Personal Introspection
For the Shabbat of Succot, David was released to his house for 24 hours with his family. The next day he went back to the hospital. In the days that passed since Yom Kippur eve, he has begun to whisper other words, and he is capable of saying “Abba,” “yes,” and “no”. His motor skills are also showing signs of improvement and he can move his left hand. “The movement on his left side is coming back first,” his father quotes the doctors and says that this is only the beginning. “The path is very long until he comes back to himself. He has started talking. It reminds me very much of a baby beginning to speak. Speech is the level in which we become human beings, the level that separates us from the animal kingdom.”
The trauma, he says, has not changed his life principles, “but certain things took on a much stronger emphasis. Today I am less critical of people. My principles have not changed, but how I relate to people is much more delicate,” he explains.
“When something like this happens to a man, he examines his deeds. I feel like the many battles I’ve waged these past 15 years have begun to spill into the personal arena, and that isn’t good. In Psalms it’s written that “sins will vanish from the earth’ – sins and not sinners. When I did my own personal introspection on Yom Kippur, I decided to focus on the errors in this war, not on those who commit them. To put the emphasis on the matter at hand, not on people.”
Do you believe in remuneration?
“You mean reward and punishment? I believe that everything happens for a reason and a purpose. But most of the reasons are beyond us. We can’t understand them. When a little child suffers—it’s certainly not because of his sins. I believe that we need to learn and improve ourselves from within the situation we find ourselves in.”
A minute before we part he asks to add one more sentence. “I know that an article in a newspaper is not a greeting card with a poem,” he apologizes, “but the main reason I agreed to be interviewed was so I could have an opportunity to say thank you from the depths of my heart to the medical staff at Schneider Hospital and Tel HaShomer, and another huge thank you to the Creator of the World, and the tens of thousands of Jews who are praying all the time for David’s recovery.”
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
Did God tell you an apology is in order? I purposely left that comment vague to avoid this kind of self-righteous judging. Do you have any compassion at all?
I'm sure that Moshe means all people, and "people" includes Amir (and Goldstein if he said something about him too, which no one showed here). But this comment doesn't need to be said!
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
Did G-d tell you an apology is in order? I purposely left that comment vague to avoid this kind of self-righteous judging. Do you have any compassion at all?
I'm sure that Moshe means all people, and "people" includes Amir (and Goldstein if he said something about him too, which no one showed here). But this comment doesn't need to be said!
I agree with KWRBT... Mr Feiglin has been through a lot and deserves our compassion. Regardless of what he said about Amir and Dr Goldstein he is a good man. Nobody can judge another man unless he has stood in his place [From Pirkie Avot]. What he said about them is not the only issue by which he should be judged.
I pray that his son recovers and Moshe finds more success in Israeli politics.
-
Did G-d tell you an apology is in order? I purposely left that comment vague to avoid this kind of self-righteous judging. Do you have any compassion at all?
I'm sure that Moshe means all people, and "people" includes Amir (and Goldstein if he said something about him too, which no one showed here). But this comment doesn't need to be said!
Yigal Amir was an innocent Jewish kid who was forced by the Rabin government to try to kill Rabin as part of an act it was setting up to make the right wing look bad. That's not conspiracy, that's known fact. Dr. Goldstein zt"l was a martyr of the first order who knowingly went to his death to prevent a Babi Yar-style massacre from taking place against his brothers and sisters. Feiglin isn't fit to wipe the dog crud off Dr. Goldstein's shoes. None of us are (with the possible exceptions of HaRav Kahane and Chaim Ben Pesach). How dare he denounce an innocent, patriotic Jewish kid and one of the greatest Jewish martyrs of all time. That's beyond reprehensible and unless Feiglin actually apologizes, yes it will affect my opinion of him, a lot.
It doesn't really matter whether or not he said it for the sake of political correctness or he really meant it. If he really meant it, that's even worse.
In any case, I don't see why you disagree with my positions so wholeheartedly. I never cursed him, called him names, etc. I said I would vote for him over any of the kapos in power or jockeying to get into power. But even aside from his views on Amir/Dr. Goldstein, his movement is still, at the minimum, a competitor to Hayamin and vies with it for members and money. Hayamin is the future of the right in Israel, not the Feiglin faction of Likud. It wouldn't matter how big Feiglin's following were to become, as the tyrant Lewinsky would just keep bumping him down to the absolute bottom of the list of MK candidates to deny him a seat. We need a movement to make the worthless brothel known as Likud irrelevant. We need Hayamin.
PS: Why is Moshe Feiglin's son being brought into this? I don't know anything about his family whatsoever and am not judging any of them in any way. This is about Moshe, period.
-
And you think the way to gain popularity is to openly hold up Amir as a hero? I cannot imagine the Israeli public ever being able to accept that.
-
Feiglin didn't need to say anything at all.
If the Israeli public is really fine with the fact that Amir is rotting in jail forever while Shalhevet Pass' murderers and Mohammed Jabarra walk Israel's streets freely, then I will just hold my tongue about them.
-
Feiglin didn't need to say anything at all.
If the Israeli public is really fine with the fact that Amir is rotting in jail forever while Shalhevet Pass' murderers and Mohammed Jabarra walk Israel's streets freely, then I will just hold my tongue about them.
I understand... It is definitely difficult to comprehend.
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life. However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.
-
Feiglin is the scum of the earth for what he said about Yigal and Baruch.
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life. However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.
Can you explain why you believe these killings were wrong ?
-
Did BZK ever express an opinion about Amir or Goldstein?
-
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life. However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.
Otherwise--excuse me!?!?!?!?
Yigal Amir was an innocent kid who was apprehended by Shabak agents and forced to take part in a "skit" simulating the assassination of the cockroach-in-chief Yitzhak Rabin as part of a regime ploy to make right-wing youths look bad. Dr. Goldstein was a holy Jewish martyr who received intelligence from the IDF that the Arabs of a local mosque were planning a massacre and to get ready to treat large numbers of casualties. The army was going to do nothing about it in order to not offend the Arabs now that Oslo had been ratified, so Dr. Goldstein took matters into his own hands knowing that he would certainly die in the process.
Do you even know what the heck you are talking about when you condemn these Jewish martyrs?
-
I'm going by Chaim's repeated explanations on Ask JTF of the incident. The other explanation that is usually given (Chamish's theory that Shimon Peres was behind it) is just crazy.
-
I'm going by Chaim's repeated explanations on Ask JTF of the incident. The other explanation that is usually given (Chamish's theory that Shimon Peres was behind it) is just crazy.
All these conspiracy theories are conjecture. You are starting to remind me of an OJ juror. They come up with the most twisted logic imaginable in order to avoid seeing what is obvious. Amir killed Rabin. There were dozens if not hundreds of witnesses. Anybody can put anything out on the internet and find someone who wants to believe it, in fact I remember a professor joking about the disinformation highway (when the internet was known as the information highway). Amir himself never denied that he killed Rabin and never blamed anyone else for it. Wake me up if you find some real facts.
-
His comments are quite interesting. He is committing himself to be less critical of people, a very courageous step toward teshuvah as he has defined for himself. This should be a lesson for all of us.
Does this mean an apology for his comments on Amir and Dr. Goldstein are forthcoming?
I wish Amir well and I hope that Goldstein was judged favorably by G-d for his otherwise righteous life. However, I still believe their killings were wrong and would not apologize for that.
Can you explain why you believe these killings were wrong ?
I don't believe Jews should solve their problems by assassinating each other. I wish Amir well and if Chaim becomes Prime Minister and chooses to pardon him I have no problem with that. I am also happy that he found a wife, (although she left a husband to be with Amir (I thought Dr. Brennan Fan found that unforgiveable in Seinfeld's case). and has had children. On the other hand I think that Amir is being treated unfairly harshly. Arab murderers are treated better than him and if there are goodwill gestures in which they are released Amir is entitled to the same.
In terms of Goldstein I have never heard any reliable evidence that he knew about a planned massacre that the government was planning to let happen. There was a major investigation of Goldstein's killings and nobody ever said that. People who claim that point to his parents having told someone he told them that. I just don't find that credible. I am not calling his parents dishonest (g-d forbid) just saying that parents in that situation are not unbiased nor should they be.
Finally let's put aside the morality of these killings. Let's assume assassinations of Jews who oppose our point of view and indiscriminate killings of Arabs are morally justified. What practical benefit accrued from them? As far as I can tell none. Amir marginalized the pro settler Jews. People who want to take away guns from settlers for self defense for years have pointed to Goldstein to justify their hideous actions.
-
Feiglin is the scum of the earth for what he said about Yigal and Baruch.
That's ridiculous.
If you feel he slandered someone righteous, that still doesn't give you the right to slander him!
-
If you feel he slandered someone righteous, that still doesn't give you the right to slander him!
"Feel"? He called Yigal a "criminal murderer" and "a psycophath with a freezing smile". He betrayed him and slandered him like a Leftist filth. Joined the Left's Jihad against him, for Oslo, and against Baruch and for the Islamic terrorists. How is it even debateable?
But it's not suprising. This is the same guy who convinced Jews to vote for traitors like Benny Begin and supported him in the 2008 primaries. All candidates he supported were phony whores who had a right for everything but existence.
This is the same guy that supports the Likud and tries to destroy real Jewish resistance to the regime. What is he doing in the Likud? he gained nothing! He knows the results of the millions of dollars he invested in his campaings - absolute nothing, only more strength to the evil Likud party and more dependence on the evil regime. He gained nothing for the Land and the Nation. I don't buy his innocence and certainly G-d will judge him in accordance with his evil treason of Jewish modern-day Maccabees.
-
In terms of Goldstein I have never heard any reliable evidence that he knew about a planned massacre that the government was planning to let happen. There was a major investigation of Goldstein's killings and nobody ever said that. People who claim that point to his parents having told someone he told them that. I just don't find that credible. I am not calling his parents dishonest (g-d forbid) just saying that parents in that situation are not unbiased nor should they be.
Baruch Goldstein was known to be a great zionist. He was very dedicated and idealistic. He had been doing a wonderful job as a physician in the IDF. He was full of ahavat Israel. He had been heavily exposed to the horrors of Arab terror attacks. I find it very credible that he acted out of the will to save Jewish lives because that's what he had been doing all his life long and because he knew he was going on a suicide mission. He was determined to show the Arab Nazis that not all Jews were cowardly whores like Rabin or Peres, that there were Jews who could do "crazy" things if that was necessary. I also believe that he must have been driven by the desire to avenge the blood of the 67 Jews who were horribly murdered in 1929 in the same place, Hebron, at a highly symbolic moment (Purim).
Does all this make him a "reasonable" man ? Probably not. Does all this make him a great man ? I say yes.
-
If you feel he slandered someone righteous, that still doesn't give you the right to slander him!
"Feel"? He called Yigal a "criminal murderer" and "a psycophath with a freezing smile". He betrayed him and slandered him like a Leftist filth. Joined the Left's Jihad against him, for Oslo, and against Baruch and for the Islamic terrorists. How is it even debateable?
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement. He did not say that "for Oslo" - He is simply against vigilante killing. It's not so clear-cut of an issue. That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion! Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law. It's a complicated matter.
What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?
But it's not suprising. This is the same guy who convinced Jews to vote for traitors like Benny Begin and supported him in the 2008 primaries. All candidates he supported were phony whores who had a right for everything but existence.
How could he have been supporting benny begin if he himself ran in that primary?
This is the same guy that supports the Likud and tries to destroy real Jewish resistance to the regime.
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance? He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason. Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received? All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
What is he doing in the Likud? he gained nothing! He knows the results of the millions of dollars he invested in his campaings - absolute nothing, only more strength to the evil Likud party and more dependence on the evil regime. He gained nothing for the Land and the Nation. I don't buy his innocence and certainly G-d will judge him in accordance to his evil treason of Jewish modern-day Maccabis.
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?
-
Baruch Goldstein was known to be a great zionist. He was very dedicated and idealistic. He had been doing a wonderful job as a physician in the IDF. He was full of ahavat Israel. He had been heavily exposed to the horrors of Arab terror attacks. I find it very credible that he acted out of the will to save Jewish lives because that's what he had been doing all his life long and because he knew he was going on a suicide mission. He was determined to show the Arab Nazis that not all Jews were cowardly whores like Rabin or Peres, that there were Jews who could do "crazy" things if that was necessary. I also believe that he must have been driven by the desire to avenge the blood of the 67 Jews who were horribly murdered in 1929 in the same place, Hebron, at a highly symbolic moment (Purim).
Does all this make him a "reasonable" man ? Probably not. Does all this make him a great man ? I say yes.<<
I agree with what you say. To put your good words in other words I think you are saying a good man snapped. I think he was a good man, I just think the last thing he did was wrong.
-
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement. He did not say that "for Oslo" - He is simply against vigilante killing. It's not so clear-cut of an issue. That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion! Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law. It's a complicated matter.
It was entrapment. Shabak agents loyal to Rabin apprehended this poor kid and forced him to partake in a sick game meant to make Rabin look like a hero and right-wing youths look evil.
What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance? He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason. Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received? All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
He wants to reform the Likud and thus tacitly believes that Likud is not completely worthless and evil. He encourages people to vote Likud. Finally, his movement is competing with Hayamin, which is the real solution.
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?
I'll wait for an actual apology from Feiglin before I forgive him.
-
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement. He did not say that "for Oslo" - He is simply against vigilante killing. It's not so clear-cut of an issue. That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion! Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law. It's a complicated matter.
It was entrapment. Shabak agents loyal to Rabin apprehended this poor kid and forced him to partake in a sick game meant to make Rabin look like a hero and right-wing youths look evil.
What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance? He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason. Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received? All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
He wants to reform the Likud and thus tacitly believes that Likud is not completely worthless and evil. He encourages people to vote Likud. Finally, his movement is competing with Hayamin, which is the real solution.
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?
I'll wait for an actual apology from Feiglin before I forgive him.
You are relaying the conspiracy theory. Please show us the facts... I do not believe that a person would 'act like I'm shooting' the Prime Minister and anyone would actually go through with it. That theory sounds like lunacy.... And why doesn't Amir claim this? All I have heard is that he admitted he shot the PM...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Rabin_assassination_conspiracy_theories
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123871
PS: I will say that there are still questions as to what happened. At times I almost believe the conspiracy theory, but I have yet to see conclusive proof.
-
Here is the article which discusses some of the conspiracy theory points:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123871
Questions Remain; 28% of Israelis Say Amir Didn't Kill Rabin
Tishrei 27, 5768, 09 October 07 05:58
by Hillel Fendel
(Israelnationalnews.com) A poll published by Maariv, Israel's second largest daily, this week shows that 28% of the Israeli public believes that Yigal Amir, who was convicted of the 1995 murder of Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, did not kill Rabin. Twenty -six percent of the Israeli public supports allowing Yigal Amir, who was convicted of the 1995 murder of Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, to leave prison in 2015.
Even more striking is the finding that 14% of Israelis - and 38% of the religious public - believe that Amir should be immediately pardoned.
On the other hand, 59% of the public, and 32% of the religious public, believe Amir should never be released from prison.
Release for the Brit?
Nearly a third of the populace feels Amir should be allowed out for a few hours when his future baby son is expected to undergo his brit milah, ritual circumcision in approximately one month.
MK Yaakov Cohen of the hareidi-religious United Torah Judaism party said he understands why so many people would like to see Amir out of prison: "True, he did something very grave, but if hundreds of murderous terrorists can be released, then we have to rethink it. If everything is open, then everything is open."
Later, after being accused of favoring a pardon for Yigal Amir, MK Cohen clarified, "I, personally, am against releasing Yigal Amir. I meant that it is understandable why some would think otherwise. Whoever murders another Jew, and especially a Prime Minister, must remain in prison until his last day."
Did Amir Kill Rabin?
The question of whether it was Amir who murdered Rabin is still a matter of national debate. Nearly half of the religious public (46%), and well over a quarter (28%) of the public at large, believe that Amir was not the culprit.
Though the Shamgar Commission found that Amir, working alone, was the murderer, many questions have been raised against the official version of the killing. These include:
• Why did the lone video of the assassination, the Kempler video, focus in on Amir for so many minutes prior to the killing?
Click here to view the full Kempler Video if it does not appear below.
• Why was Amir allowed to stand, unguarded and by himself, in the area that was supposed to be sterile, as documented in the Kempler video?
• Why, in the Kempler video frame released by the government, does Amir's arm appear to be several feet long? And why is his left arm seen shooting, when he is right-handed?%ad%
• How is it that an eye-witness to the event, Miriam Oren, was filmed at the site telling reporters emphatically and repeatedly, "I saw that Rabin was not hurt"?
• How did Rabin's armored car back door close (7:18 min. into the Kempler video) as the car prepared to speed away, with Rabin inside, if no one else was in the back seat, as the car occupants later testified?
• Why was Rabin's wife, the late Leah Rabin, told at first that the entire incident was just an exercise and a fake? Why was she told in advance not to travel with her husband? [source: Ha'olam Ha'ishah magazine, Issue 193, November, 1999, page 21]
• Why was the call, "Blanks, blanks!" heard when the shots rang out? Why did the Shamgar Commission not determine who shouted this?
• Why was the assassin not killed immediately?
The last three questions have been asked publicly by Rabin's daughter, former MK Dalia Rabin-Pilosoph. Rabin's son Yuval has also raised doubts about the official version, even demanding the re-opening of the investigation into the murder.
Promulgators of the "conspiracy" theories - which are now believed by no less than 28% of the Israeli public, the Maariv poll shows - have also raised the following points:
• Why did then-Health Minister Dr. Ephraim Sneh say on television that night [45 seconds into video below] that Rabin had been wounded by bullets to the chest, stomach, and spinal cord, when in fact the video shows that Amir fired from the back? [Click here if you cannot see Sneh video below]
• Why did the Director of Ichilov Hospital Dr. Gabi Barabash, who was in the operating room when Rabin was treated for his wounds, say on national TV [55 seconds into video below] that Rabin suffered from a wound to his chest, when Amir was seen firing from behind? [If you cannot see Barabash video below, click here]
Click here for English transcript of Hebrew Barabash interview
Rabin assassination researcher David Rutstein notes the contradictions in the number of bullet wounds, where Barabash says only two wounds - one to the chest and one to the spleen - while Sneh counts three wounds, including one in the back. Rutstein says the third bullet wound mentioned by Sneh "was just put there after Rabin was already dead in order to match all the eyewitness accounts which stated that Yigal Amir shot Rabin in the back." Rutstein emphasizes that after their initial, live screenings, the Sneh and Barabash videos were never again aired on government-controlled media, despite their historic significance.
• Why did the three doctors who operated on Rabin submit, in their handwritten medical report [see picture below], that Rabin suffered a gunshot wound to the chest, when Amir was seen firing at Rabin only from behind?
• Why did security guard Yoram Rubin testify before the Shamgar Commission that Rabin was shot at 9:50 PM, when in fact Yigal Amir was arrested at 9:30 PM?
• Why did Rabin's driver, Menachem Damti, testify before the Commission and at Amir's trial that he drove to Ichilov Hospital in less than two minutes, when the ride actually took over 20 minutes? Could this question be connected to the previous one?
• Why did Rabin's top aide Eitan Haber destroy evidence? He told the Commission that he took Rabin's possessions from Ichilov Hospital, and later told the Jerusalem newspaper Kol Ha'ir that on the same night he cleaned out Rabin's filing cabinets at the Prime Minister's office.
• Why did official State Pathologist Dr. Yehuda Hiss remove the mention of a chest and spine wound from the autopsy report, when in fact all the other doctors there, including Gutman, Sneh and Barabash, reported that Rabin died of a shattered spine with bullet entry through the chest?
• Why did the chief judge at Yigal Amir's trial, Edmond Levy, dismiss the testimony of police forensics expert Inspector Baruch Gladstein, who proved categorically that one gun shot was fired into Rabin at point-blank range - about a half-meter closer than Amir ever got to Rabin?
The late Adir Zik, Arutz-7's popular broadcaster who waged a long struggle to uncover the truth behind the Rabin assassination and the campaign of incitement against the nationalist campaign that followed it, often said that his main objection to the official version was the behavior of the guards. He said that from his conversations with members of the VIP bodyguard unit, he knew they were trained to shoot immediately if a gun is drawn in the immediate vicinity of the VIP.
"VIP bodyguards told me," said Zik, "that if, through some foul-up, an assassin were to fire one shot, he would be filled with bullets long before firing a second. How is it possible that Amir was able to get off not only two, but three shots, without being felled by the guards?" He concluded that they had been instructed previously not to shoot - and that this could only be if it was coordinated in advance that the "assassin" would in fact be firing only blanks.
-
It's debatable because you're making up your own reasons and your own motivations for his statement. He did not say that "for Oslo" - He is simply against vigilante killing. It's not so clear-cut of an issue. That doesn't make him a bad guy because he has that opinion! Lawlessness is not exactly something encouraged by Jewish law. It's a complicated matter.
It was entrapment. Shabak agents loyal to Rabin apprehended this poor kid and forced him to partake in a sick game meant to make Rabin look like a hero and right-wing youths look evil.
I'm not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I said.
At the end of the day, entrapped or not, he killed him in a vigilante killing. Some people are against that on principle.
What did he say about Baruch Goldstein?
I don't know. That was what I asked Ron.
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance? He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason. Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received? All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
He wants to reform the Likud and thus tacitly believes that Likud is not completely worthless and evil. He encourages people to vote Likud.
Finally, his movement is competing with Hayamin, which is the real solution.
How does he compete with something that doesn't exist in Israel? What are you talking about?
Oh so you never made a mistake or said something bad about someone that you regretted later?
I'll wait for an actual apology from Feiglin before I forgive him.
That's great but 1. that wasn't directed at you, it was said to Ron, and 2. he doesn't need YOUR forgiveness because he didn't do anything against you.
-
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge. The Israeli govt admitted to this. Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.
The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets. Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
-
More information about the 'conspiracy theory'
http://israelstreams.com/?israelinsider.html?http://israelinsider.com/Articles1/Politics/6924.htm
http://www.tisanim.com/Web/Sites/hadar/PAGE17.asp
Rabin's assassination - The Real Story
Rabin was murdered in his car, Yigal Amir addmitted the murder under the influence of psychoactive agents (MKULTRA)
The original medical reports, indicate that Rabin reached the hospital, located less than two minutes away from the Kings of Israel Square where he was shot at 9:30 pm, only after 22 minutes, in an ambulance (not the Cadillac limousine in which he was carried from the site) -- already intubated (with a breathing tube inserted).
At 9:52, Rabin was transferred from the ambulance and admitted to the hospital -- inexplicably, anonymously. None of the doctors treating the unnamed patient initially had any clue that it was Rabin. Only some 12 minutes later, after the bodyguard Rubin entered the ER, was the admission form updated to indicate that the patient, suffering from a single frontal chest wound, was none other than the Prime Minister of Israel.
On arrival to hospital, Rabin had only a single gunshot wound, which was located in his front chest, 2-3 cm above the right nipple, where the exit wound was directed towards the spine at D5-6, accompanied by crushed vertebra and fracture of the neighborhood rib. For about 40 minutes, the doctors provide the patient with eight units of blood and manage to stabilize his condition, although he is still unable to breathe on his own but is still connected to a respirator.
At this point, according to diverse reports from medical staff, Shin Bet agents entered the surgical suite and ordered medical personnel removed. A minute or two later, the Shin Bet returning the docrors, asking them to continue the treatment until the government will be ready for claiming the death of Rabin. However, when the doctors returned to their
patient, they discover, that his death body has been shot two additional times -- in the back. One form, written and signed by the Dr. Gutman, indicates that the time of death was 10:30 and explicitly references only the single chest wound. A second form, which came to be the official death pronouncement, states the "official" time of death at 11:10. All references to the chest wound were subsequently expunged from the hospital records and the videotape of the autopsy "recycled," according to Hiss.
Nevertheless, the apparent real scenario could be proved anyway, thanks to one mistake made very recently by Dr. Hiss. This occured after the chest X-ray of Mr Rabin (being protected for 10 years), was presented on TV for few seconds, at the 4/11/95. This exposure was sufficient for recording and freezing one of the chest X-ray images, enabling objective examination of the chest findings. Amazingly, the chest X-ray strikingly confirmed the findings documented on the medical report written by Dr. Guttman at 22.30, that is, that the bullet on the left lung hilum was already removed during operation, whereas two bullets were left on, the one in the spine, which killed Rabin, as well as one of the bullets which were shotted after death, both were removed at the PM examination.
Look at the chest X-ray image, showing the bullet that entered through the front chest, 2 cm above the right nipple, which was eventually stucked in the spine (right arrow), causing spina shock, as well as the missing bullet in the left lung hilum, where the bullet residing there being already removed during opreation, actually proving the existence of 3 bullets in the body of Rabin; the unreported chest bullet that killed Rabin, and the two late shots in his death body, ascribed to Yugal Amir.
What is still missing, is the whole body CT scan (being also protected), which should unquestionably show the bullet in the spine and the crushed vertebra, which was ignored in the official Pathological report.
Nevertheless, aside from the first available medical report showed above (which was written immediately after death, thus being authentic), and the chest X-ray showing the bullet in spine (red arrow), as well as a missing bullet in the left lung hilum, both proving that Rabin came to the ER with only one shot in his right front chest (and that's all), also the later
medical reports, despite being written retrospectively after death, and under external pressure, confirm the above findings.
For example, the report written post operation, documented obviously the existing of a palpabe crushed vertebra (which was ignored by the latter Pathological report and by the official version):
In Hebrew: לערך, שם נמוש ריסוק עצם(D5-6) הקרע בראה מוביל לאזור ע"ש תורקלי
That is, the tear in the right lung is leading to the thoracic spine area (approx. D5-6), where bone crush is palpable.
To summarize: "Rabin isn't supposed to be harmed in any manner shape or form. The plan is to bring him to the Shabak headquarters. The government would then clamp down on the Right. This explains why there is no blood at the site of the shooting, no spent cartridges, why Shabak [the Hebrew acronym for the Shin Bet] guards didn't kill Amir on sight, why the two trauma ambulance crews (docs and paramedics) stationed 10 feet away from where Rabin was "shot" are rebuffed when they offer to treat the "wounded" Rabin, why people shouted "SRAK! SRAK!" ("Blanks! Blanks), why the Shabak told Leah Rabin that her husband was OK and the whole thing was just an "exercise", and why when a senior police officer from the Police Identification Unit takes the gun used by Amir as material evidence has the gun forcibly (and illegally) removed
from him by the Shabak. The "gun" is returned the next day. Rabin is taken to the Shabak headquarters in the Cadillac limousine: the hospital is NOT informed to be ready for a trauma patient."
Somewhere during what was expected to be a brief and uneventful trip to the Shabak headquarters , where Rabin was to have emerged safe and sound, something must have gone terribly wrong. Someone in the Shin Bet, apparently decided -- either in the car or at nearby Shin Bet headquarters to shoot Rabin and immediately after one shot into Rabin's chest this man is killed by another guard. Eventually, Rabin is transfered by an ambulance, intubated, and delivered to the hospital, initially as an anonymous patient suffering from a gunshot wound.
So, a frontal shot to the chest killed Rabin; after declaring his death and stopping medical treatment, two additional hollowpoint bullets were fired into his body, one into his back from the right and the second to his left hip, after which Rabin was transferred to an operating room where his death was declared a second time.
The latest evidence strongly suggests that the plan was not to kill Rabin but rather -- as the Shin Bet repeatedly did using its "agent provocateur" Avishay Raviv -- to stage an outrageous provocation meant to sway public opinion to support the Prime Minister's policies, to incriminate his opponents, and to permit a crackdown on their activities -- all of which did in fact happen after the "staged" assassination attempt tragically turned into a real murder.
The new revelations further strengthens the evidence of a pervasive and systematic cover-up of the murder in official Israeli circles, beginning within the Shin Bet itself, but pointing also to collaboration after the fact by senior political figures -- those in charge of the security agency as well as legal and medical officials who either forged documentary evidence, concealed it, perjured themselves, or failed to ask the required and in many cases obvious questions about the glaring inconsistencies and stark contradictions in the official version of what happened on that terrible night ten years ago.
Finally, all these findings are being now subject to reevaluation by the supreme court, which should decide whether to open again the case.
So who killed Rabin and why?
There are several points that must be realized:
1. The official murderer, Yigal Amir, like his partner, Avishay Raviv, is actually a Shin Bet man, holding a service card signed by the past head of the Shin Bet, Yaacob Peri. This fact was published by the Observer in 1996, according to security sources. Amir had participated in a security course in the Shin Bet, just before he was sent to Latbia as a security man.
In fact, Amir's mother was active in the lefty faction MEREZ.
2. Yigal Amir himself made an effort to take all the responsibility fo the murder on himself, and fired his lawyer when trying to challenge the official version in court. Amir at that point represented himself alone. Amir also admitted two additional trials to kill Rabin, one was in Yad Vashem during a demonstration against Rabin, who was scheduled to have a speech there. However, one of his partners was cited the day after the murder that Amir was quite passive in organization of the
demonstration, and excluding one moment he entered the auditorium, telling that he only wants to see how it looks from inside, he did not really stay there or do something strange or suspicous (and eventually Rabin missed the meeting). So it seems that Amir tried to incriminate himself from the beginning, even when no peace of evidence really exists.
3. At a polygraph test after his arrest by the police, Amir was found lying when telling he had no partners to the murder.
The fourth passenger
The Yediot Achronot reporter Yoav Limor, testified the day after the murder that a forth passenger was sitting in the front seat near the driver. This person was considered by Limor as a policeman. (Recall, that according to the official version, there was no fourth passenger, only three).
Furtheremore, the chief security man in the hospital, where Rabin was taken to, stated he saw through the limousine window a huge spot of blood on the front seat, in addition to the blood seen on the back seat, where Rabin was sitting or lying.
In addition, a taxi driver gave a signed declaration to Amir's lawyer, stating that a passenger identified himself as a Pathologist, and holding a card of a doctor, told him during a drive from Jaffa to Ichilov, that he was on duty in Ichilov during the night of the murder and he personally examined Rabin's body (probably before the forensic Pathologist Hiss arrived). This Pathologist marked two lies in the official version. One is that Rabin had 3 gunshot wounds, including one (different caliber) on his front chest. The second, is that another body, a body of a guard from the same event was brought to Ichilov at that night.
The last step
In considering the fact that Yigal Amir could not by himself murder Rabin, simply because Rabin was shot from behind, while he came to the hospital with only one gunshot wound, located in his front chest, and due to the fact that Rabin was jumping into the car after the shots by Amir, which does not feet with the fact that he arrived paralyzed to the hospital
(spinal shock), it makes sense than, that the real murderer was one of the co-passengers in the limousine, possibly the man whose body was brought to Ichilov at the same time as Rabin.
It is possible than. that somebody who knew about the planned exercise of the Shin Bet, took advantage on the situation, and ordered the murder, knowing that the blame will be put on Yigal Amir and the right. Looking imaginary? maybe.
-
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge. The Israeli govt admitted to this. Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.
The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets. Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'
Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...
But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..
-
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge. The Israeli govt admitted to this. Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.
The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets. Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'
Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...
But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..
Whether you think it or not, the govt admitted that Avishai Raviv was hired by the GSS to create an "extremist group," I think it was called "eyal " where he depicted Rabin in a nazi uniform and his job was to encourage Amir to shoot the prime minister. Whether you think it's likely or not, Rabin's govt hired Avishai Raviv. No one can deny fact.
-
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge. The Israeli govt admitted to this. Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.
The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets. Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'
Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...
But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..
Whether you think it or not, the govt admitted that Avishai Raviv was hired by the GSS to create an "extremist group," I think it was called "eyal " where he depicted Rabin in a nazi uniform and his job was to encourage Amir to shoot the prime minister. Whether you think it's likely or not, Rabin's govt hired Avishai Raviv. No one can deny fact.
KWRBT,
Did you read what I said... I just posted from the article which discussed the photo of Rabin, etc... I do not deny that... Read what I said... I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM... He went with the intention of shooting the PM... Nobody would walk into that arena carrying a blank gun knowingly..
-
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge. The Israeli govt admitted to this. Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.
The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets. Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'
Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...
But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..
What you said is incoherent.
They never said "go shoot blanks at him." They said "go shoot him" and they put blanks in the gun thinking he wouldn't know. He was smarter than them and replaced blanks with real bullets.
-
I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM...
No one claimed that. I haven't even seen conspiracy theorists claim that.
-
I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM...
No one claimed that. I haven't even seen conspiracy theorists claim that.
So you agree that by definition he is guilty...
The same kind of rationale can be used against the terrorists who were going to blow up the synagogues in NY last year. The FBI gave these terrorists the fake bombs, and they placed them thinking they were going to go off...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Blotter/wireStory?id=11909707
For weeks, a jury listened to tapes of James Cromitie ranting against Jews and U.S. military aggression in the Middle East and talking to an informant — paid by the FBI and wearing a wire — about how to get revenge by blowing up New York City synagogues and shooting down military planes.
Videotape showed the men inspecting and practicing with fake weapons — part of a plot federal prosecutors said was all Cromitie's idea. The defense dismissed the sting as a "movie written, produced and directed" by the FBI and never a real threat to New Yorkers.
Jurors deliberated for eight days at the trial in federal court in Manhattan before rejecting an entrapment defense and siding with the government by finding Cromitie and three co-defendants guilty of conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction and other charges.
Cromitie and David Williams were convicted of all eight counts, while Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen were convicted of seven of eight counts. Sentencing was set for March 24; the defendants could face up to life in prison.
Afterward, U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara in a statement called homegrown terrorism a "serious threat" and added: "We are safer today as a result of these convictions." He said the defendants agreed to plant bombs and use missiles "they thought were very real weapons of terrorism."
Defense lawyers said they will appeal.
"This is a miscarriage of justice — just like the whole trial and case," said one of the attorneys, Susanne Brody. Another, Samuel Braverman, said his client was stunned by the verdict.
.
.
PS: Again I do not have sympathy on Rabin. His plans were the 'beginning of the end' so to speak, and today we are still paying for his poor policies.
-
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge. The Israeli govt admitted to this. Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.
The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets. Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'
Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...
But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..
What you said is incoherent.
They never said "go shoot blanks at him." They said "go shoot him" and they put blanks in the gun thinking he wouldn't know. He was smarter than them and replaced blanks with real bullets.
But all the conspiracy theories I have seen say that he did not Shoot Rabin, that the witnesses said it was blanks, that the video shows him shooting with the wrong hand, that the # of gunshot wounds was not equal to the # of shots heard, etc...
So what do we believe? Did he really shoot Rabin? Or was Rabin actually shot by a Shabak agent while he was in the car?
-
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/rabinass.html
Nine Days, Two Conspiracy Theories
The anniversary period occasioned a raft of headlines suggesting that “the Left” and “the Right” were squaring off for war over the causes (note the plural) of the Rabin assassination, with the focus on conspiracies.
The conspiracy theory expressed in the name of “the Left” emerged in November 1995, immediately after the assassination. Articulated sometimes as an innuendo and sometimes as a certainty, it alleged that Rabin had been assassinated collectively by “the Right,” “the settlers,” “the religious,” or some combination/mutation of the three. Yigal Amir's trigger finger, this account argued, was a marionette appendage actuated by vile and benighted hordes that should be cast out of the Israeli polity if not targeted for revenge. Those who share this conviction have coined a slogan: “Never Forgive, Never Forget.” In an advertisement published on Nov. 7, for example, the Peace Bloc (an alliance of small groups rooted in Canaanism and the intifada-era far Left) referred to Rabin's murder “by nationalist religious zealots.” Within a few days, unidentified individuals had issued death threats against several rightist-Orthodox parliamentarians.
The theory expressed by “the Right” revolved around Avishai Raviv, whom the General Security Service (GSS) had recruited to inform on the extreme Right. The publication of hitherto-classified sections of Shamgar Commission of Inquiry into the Rabin assassination, which by chanced coincided with the anniversary, shed some light on Raviv's provocative tactics and led some to argue that Raviv had incited Amir on the instructions of the GSS, which had scores to settle with Rabin.
Proponents of the two theories met, so to speak, on Nov. 30 at a Tel Aviv workshop entitled: “The Avishai Raviv Affair and Who is Afraid of Probing the Conspiracy to Assassinate Rabin.” While the Ravivists conspired inside the hall, a squad of demonstrators from a peace movement protested outside. The message on their posters: “Everyone knows who incited.”
Some mainstream figures who keep their distance from conspiracy-mongers nevertheless allude to these sentiments. On the Right, cabinet secretary Danny Naveh alleged (Nov. 15) that politicians associated with the previous Government knew that at least some of Avishai Raviv's actions were committed “within the framework” of the GSS and exploited them to besmirch the “national camp” (as the mainstream Right has termed itself since the 1980s). MK Rehavam Zeevy, head of the Moledet Party, blamed Rabin for his own murder “as the official in charge of the GSS” (Nov. 14).
On the center-left, Labour Party chairman Ehud Barak flirted with his fringe's conspiracy theory in otherwise conciliatory memorial remarks on Nov. 12. “May we never assail each other from rooftops and terraces,” he said, alluding to the infamous 1995 Likud rally, addressed by party leader Benjamin Netanyahu from a balcony, beneath which Raviv circulated with a poster that had Rabin's head superimposed on a picture of SS commander Heinrich Himmler in full regalia—“and not stand at streetcorners and plazas surrounded by symbols of death, blood, and treason”—an in direct reference to the extraparliamentary movements' tactics that year. However, Barak then deliberately modified the fringe players' formula: “We won't forget Rabin, and we won't forgive his murderer.”
The notion of setting aside the Rabin assassination as sui generis, as Israel usually does with the Holocaust—a matter comparable to nothing else, an event only to be rued and, in the context of recurrence, prevented—has yet to mature among those who feel strongly about the matter.
-
Here is one more article on this subject from Samson Blinded site:
http://samsonblinded.org/blog/how-rabin-was-killed.htm
How Rabin was killed
There are many gaps in the story of Rabin’s assassination. But we can reliably fill them from context. The Israeli ruling establishment has a history of political assassinations, including Arlozoroff, the Season, and most likely the Kahanes and Zeevi. Assassinating Rabin wouldn’t have been outrageous. The establishment also has a documented history of blatant disregard for the law, such as the Beilin-Peres negotiations with the PLO in Cairo before Rabin’s election. Beilin and Peres are heavily invested in the peace process, and one more “victim of the peace process” was not a high price for them to pay. Both hated Rabin and numbered many grievances against him.
The two conspiracies were running concurrently. One was a normal Shin-Bet provocation against the right wing, in line with the subsequent framing of Goldstein, the purported Kahane Chai planning of the attack on an Arab school, and so on. Shin-Bet’s agent Champagne worked in Hebron for years, and Yigal Amir was just one of his targets. Shin-Bet aimed to frame the right, not kill Rabin. So Amir, unknown to himself, was shooting blanks at Rabin. Shin-Bet infiltrated Amir into the sterile area of the highest security and warned the guards to stay away from Rabin to give Amir clear shot. That much we see on the video: Rabin’s guards step away when Amir draws his gun. Subsequently, the shouts are heard, “It’s blanks!” The shooting was theatrically staged after the immense peace show. It was planned in a sterile area rather than in the square so that no one would stop Amir. Shin Bet, accordingly, placed video operators near the scene to have evidence against Amir—hence the Kempler video. To retain credibility, the video had to be amateurish. Rabin was likely aware of the plot because on the video he seems to look at Amir quietly, without gesticulation. The Shin-Bet plot had been cooking for years. Champagne spent much time with Amir and the conservatives.
A big change came about shortly before the peace rally. Rabin publicly refused to make concessions to Arabs and called for annexing the West Bank. It seems that he entered one of his hysterical mood swings. It became paramount for the Peres-Beilin group to get rid of Rabin. Planning the removal of Rabin—at that stage, not necessarily by murder—they came to know of Shin-Bet’s provocation plot, an insignificant operation among many similar ones. At that point, Peres or Beilin instructed Shin-Bet to move forward with the fake assassination, but also planned a follow-up: the real assassination of Rabin in his car. Although Shin-Bet was profoundly leftist and both Peres and Beilin had many appointees there, the security service undoubtedly knew nothing of the planned real assassination. Rabin was probably killed by a guard who worked for Peres. Rabin’s own guard was killed in the ensuing skirmish, and honorably buried a few days later after “committing suicide.”
Now Shin-Bet realized that the Peres-Beilin group had framed it. The secret of Champagne could not be kept for long, and as soon as it came out Shin-Bet would be implicated in Rabin’s murder. That’s no small thing: a Shin-Bet agent convinced a right-winger to shoot Rabin. That smacks of a putsch. So Shin-Bet released the Kempler video to prove that Amir didn’t kill Rabin. Shin-Bet didn’t want to take a crash course with Peres and Beilin, and didn’t dispute the official version of Amir assassinating Rabin, but secured its own back by proving that Amir didn’t kill Rabin.
-
I'm not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I said.
At the end of the day, entrapped or not, he killed him in a vigilante killing. Some people are against that on principle.
Unless you believe in the conspiracy theory that Shimon Peres had Rabin killed, Amir was forced to do what he did by Shabak agents. In the former scenario, he is a completely innocent fall guy. In the latter, he is an entrapment victim. Either way he is the victim of a grotesque miscarriage of justice. Tell me why there are average Israelis who think he should be in jail forever but aren't bothered by Samir Kuntar, Mahmoud Abbas, the butchers who shot Shalhevet Pass, and Mohammed Jabarra walking scot-free, the latter three on the streets of Israel. As far as I am concerned the Israelis who feel that way, brainwashed or not, need to be relocated (without compensation) to Riyadh or Lahore. (And that is a moderate punishment.)
But let's pretend he just up and decided to assassinate Rabin on his own, which is NOT what happened. I am a law-abiding person and do not believe in using violence, but it's kind of beyond dispute that Rabin was a kapo of the highest order--one who collaborated with the British and German Nazis during WWII, sinking the ships of Holocaust refugees, and later presided over a savage "dirty war" against Jewish rightists in the Irgun (culminating in the Altalena), and devoted his whole life to murdering his own people. How is the fact that he received judgment for his sins a bad thing?
I don't know. That was what I asked Ron.
Chaim has the exact quotation.
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance? He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason. Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received? All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
Feiglin is superior to that kapo pig Guzofsky, but they do have one thing in common. Both run "right-wing" movements that have succeeded in raising millions of dollars (combined), but have virtually nothing to show for it. The money that well-meaning right-wing Jews have given to "kahane".org and Feiglin's organization could have gone to JDL/JTF/Hayamin, where it would have made a whole lot more difference. I think Feiglin should disband his movement and work for Hayamin, personally, instead of competing with it.
How does he compete with something that doesn't exist in Israel? What are you talking about?
They are both right-wing movements that are trying to save Israel.
That's great but 1. that wasn't directed at you, it was said to Ron, and 2. he doesn't need YOUR forgiveness because he didn't do anything against you.
I care about the people of Israel (at least the non-self haters). Think about it--if I didn't care about Jews, would I post here?
He slandered two great Jews, one of whom is a sacred martyr who knowingly went to his death to save Israelis in his village from a second Babi Yar. Pardon me if I have a low level of tolerance for spreading blood libel against such a holy tzaddik.
-
I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM...
No one claimed that. I haven't even seen conspiracy theorists claim that.
So you agree that by definition he is guilty...
Well you shouldn't "put words in my mouth" as the saying goes.
I agree that he actually killed rabin. Guilty is another question.
Btw, entrapment is actually illegal, so if those black muslim scumbags were actually entrapped, then they could be let off on their charges. But the people involved usually know what the boundaries are and what constitutes legal entrapment vs tricking them into doing something of their own will that they wanted from the beginning, which is legal. It seems the feds involved didn't cross that line and they will be charged (were they already charged? I seem to remember a sentencing).
But actual entrapment is something the law enforcement have to be careful of avoiding in cases like this. And hiring a guy to say "Kill rabin" is ACTUAL ENTRAPMENT. So why compare with the black muslim scum bombers whose lawyers cry entrapment even though there was none?
The same kind of rationale can be used against the terrorists who were going to blow up the synagogues in NY last year. The FBI gave these terrorists the fake bombs, and they placed them thinking they were going to go off...
Entrapment is not the fact that the fbi gave them bombs. Entrapment would be if the FBI was convincing them to go and commit the act. If the fbi informants merely supplied the equipment that THEY the muslims sought themselves as part of a sting operation, that's NOT entrapment.
So in our case, when they gave Amir a gun- that is not entrapment and no one claims it was.
But prior to that, when they convinced him to do it, that WAS entrapment. Hope that clarifies.
Whether he was entrapped or not, I personally view Amir as heroic.
-
I agree that in many respects he did act heroic.
But you can't have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes.
Either he actually did it and wanted to do it before he was 'programmed' to carry out this action. Or he did it, and he didn't really want to do it and was only coaxed into doing it.
Is he heroic in both cases? I don't know the answer to this one. If he did it and he wanted to do it, he is guilty according to the law, and it was heroic. But if he didn't want to do it, and only did it because he was 'brainwashed' and according to one of the articles I posted he was allegedly on some mind-altering drug when he did it, then I feel more sympathy for a poor guy who was manipulated rather than feeling he acted heroically.
I did not hear the allegation that he was given the gun with blanks and that he replaced them with actual ammunition. Do you remember where you read that fact?
PS: I apologize if it appeared that I put words into your mouth... I would never want to do such a thing..
PPS: I also try to avoid the story as reported by Chamish... I have come across his ideas several times while searching on this topic. It seems like every story which I read on google mentions Chamish.
For example : http://tembakan.com/832598-No-gunpowder-on-Yigal-Amir-s-hands.html
Not that I encourage people to read Chamish's theories.
-
I will post one more article on this topic:
http://www.jewishmag.com/28mag/raviv/raviv.htm
What Really Happened with Yitzhak Rabin and Avishai Raviv?
By L.H. Duboff
Every one knows who Yitzhak Rabin was, but not every one knows who Avishai Raviv is.
Going back in time, we recall the tragic assassination of then Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin. Rabin, who according to opinion polls at the time, was losing credibility with his peace process due to the increase of Arab terrorist actions and in view of the many well attended demonstrations from the political right. Rabin made his own peace demonstration in Tel Aviv to bolster his falling image and to counter the political gains of the right.
As we know, as he left his pro-peace demonstration, he was shot by a young kippa (religious headcovering) wearing man by the name of Yigal Amir. Rabin died shortly after the shooting. The Israeli press instantly went into hysteria accusing the religious political right of being responsible. The nation's police force quickly rounded up many Rabbis and accused them of making speeches branding Rabin as a "rodef" (a person who is trying to kill another and according to Jewish law should be killed himself). The nation's press played up the theme that the religious in this country (and abroad) were too fanatic and must be stopped. A full-fledged witch-hunt was soon begun with the theme being that the religious are no good and Rabbis must be imprisoned together with the irresponsible leaders of the right.
The idealistic settlers, who as the behest of the many previous governments, settled the dangerous and hilly mountain slopes of Judea and Samaria, were branded as extreme and unwanted individuals. Free expression of opinion was reduced to that of the Stalinist era in Russia. Phones were tapped, letters were mysteriously opened and read by government agents, and the country was reduced to a terrorist state. All verbal opposition to the government was squashed and silenced. No one dared offer a criticism of Rabin, his policies or the government actions.
The right was thoroughly discredited throughout the media. The religious men subject to nasty comments comparing them to leeches and murderers. The political left lost no time in using the assassination to gain support and to further discredit the right blaming them fully for the tragic murder. The newspapers demanded that the Rabbis who influenced Yigal Amir to believe that Rabin must be stopped and that he was a "rodef", must be tried as accomplices. Hundreds of Rabbis and thousands of religious men and women were brought in to undergo torturous questioning as to who called Rabin a "rodef". The press was in full heat, calling for a full investigation of the conspiracy of the Rabbis.
To which fringe group did Amir belong? That became the new war cry! We must indite those irresponsible young (and old) fanatics! Then it became known that Amir, who attended the religious Bar Ilan University, near Tel Aviv, was a member of an extremist group called Eyal. The newspapers/television/radio media were now into a hot story. A fanatic religious political right extremist group! Who were the members of Eyal? Who was their leader that goaded Amir?
The news came out! The leader of Eyal was Avishai Raviv. Let him share the murderous fate of Amir! But, the media wanted more, who was Avishai Raviv? Ah, well, at first the information was denied, but it slowly came out - he has a connection with the government. Not just a government employee, but an agent working for the GSS, the secret Government Security Services. At this point all information became stifled. Suddenly, as quick as the heat was turned on by the press, it was turned off.
The newspapers began focusing on other issues. The GSS, we were told, will investigate this matter thoroughly. A full report will be forthcoming. A full report never came - only some lies and some covering up. First Raviv was described as an informant, but not working for the GSS, that's all. But independent investigation proved that to be a lie. Then it was admitted that he was an agent, who did work for the GSS, but he was only to tell what he had heard.
The T-shirt distibuted by Raviv showing Rabin as a Nazi.
In the meantime, it became known that Raviv was not a mere agent, he was a government hired and paid provocateur. Raviv's assignment was to make the right look bad in the eyes of the middle ground voters. This was to be accomplished by having the right do extreme tactics, which would be repelled by the middle ground voters.
Raviv at a anti-peace rally.
Some of the tactics included beating up innocent Arabs, burning Arab vehicles, spraying walls with violent anti Rabin slogans. Raviv even distributed a photo of Rabin as a Nazi, which of course infuriated the press and the middle ground voters. He further infuriated the middle ground voters by toasting Baruch Goldstien, the man who murdered some thirty Arabs in Hebron.
Raviv was the head of Eyal, the group to which Amir belonged. The extremist group, Eyal, which was set up on the campus of Bar Ilan University, was instigated and funded by the GSS. Raviv who had a very close relation with Amir, goaded Amir, telling him that he is a coward and has not the courage to kill him. In a party which was attended by several girls, (witness testimony was given to the Shamgar commission report yet was never acted upon) Raviv prodded Amir to kill Rabin.
Raviv posing with a gun.
Up to here, my dear reader, is absolute fact. From here on is the theory.
It is strongly felt here in Israel, by independent news sources and many members of the public, that Amir was set up by not just Raviv, but also the GSS to stage an assassination attempt on Rabin. It was felt that that, and only that, could bring the sentiments of the people back to the side of Rabin. The scapegoat, Amir, was unknowingly given a gun with blanks. (As is known that someone yelled at the time of the shooting, "Blanks, blanks". He was to have shot Rabin with this gun. Rabin was to have escaped the shooting unscathed. The left (sic) would be discredited. Public opinion would come back to Rabin.
Somewhere, the blank bullets in the gun were switched for real ones. Amir who was psyched by Raviv (and the GSS) to assassinate Rabin really did it.
Yet, there is something greater that is wrong here. There is a principle of free speech, together with our knowing how much the government was involved with the manipulation of the opinion making instuments (i.e. the media) which are supposed to be independent. There is something which smells from the Israeli Government's closet of secrecy. Amir was tried without bringing Raviv to court. Raviv is a free man. The government keeps pushing off any investigation into his connection with the GSS and perhaps even Rabin's own knowledge that an assassination attempt was to take place.
Even worse, my dear reader, unlike every free country, the press, the radio, and the boob tube, are not interested in the story. Perhaps they are only interested in slandering the innocent right and religious. Perhaps they are afraid of the GSS.
What part did the Israeli government have in Rabin's murder? Why has no real information come out from the government to clear up the involvment of the GSS? What is the Israeli government hiding from us?
But you can help. Talk it up. Inquire about the case. Don't let it die. Truth is not just a gentile concept, but also a Jewish one.
from the January 2000 Edition of the Jewish Magazine
-
I agree that in many respects he did act heroic.
But you can't have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes.
I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Either he actually did it and wanted to do it before he was 'programmed' to carry out this action. Or he did it, and he didn't really want to do it and was only coaxed into doing it.
Never claimed he was "programmed." He was a person not a robot. He was convinced to do it. It still took guts and conviction to actually do it.
And I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, either he never wanted to do it and got convinced to, or he wanted to and also got coaxed into it. There was coaxing, so any other scenario is imaginary. But he was obviously ideologically opposed to oslo, and their "encouragement" of his deed did not come in a vacuum. Still there is a legal definition of entrapment that it seems they violated.
Is he heroic in both cases?
Note - I did not know what you were getting at until what you wrote below...
I don't know the answer to this one. If he did it and he wanted to do it, he is guilty according to the law, and it was heroic. But if he didn't want to do it, and only did it because he was 'brainwashed' and according to one of the articles I posted he was allegedly on some mind-altering drug when he did it, then I feel more sympathy for a poor guy who was manipulated rather than feeling he acted heroically.
I'm a little confused by these 'alternatives.' He pulled the trigger and shots went bang. Everyone witnessed that much and the video shows that much. Mind altering drug - I don't know how that got into the equation except by the meanderings of a certain madman. Where is evidence he took drugs?! To me what is seen in the video is an act of will. I don't think there's any question about that part.
I did not hear the allegation that he was given the gun with blanks and that he replaced them with actual ammunition. Do you remember where you read that fact?
Chaim has said this, and it might have come from Raviv's testimony. I know I've read it before.
-
Ok,
I should clarify what I said about the Psychoactive drugs. The article which I was referring to mentioned that he admitted to doing it while under the influence of a psychoactive drug and not what I said in my previous posting which implied he did the act while under the influence.
It is very sad what happened. Enough is known about it to come to the conclusion that the Israeli secret services are evil, and act in a heavy handed way against the religious Jews and the patriots in Israel. I know this, you know this, and I hope everyone reading this knows it.
But I don't like the whole entrapment idea. In my particular reasoning it seems that he wanted to do it, he did it... And no matter whether at first it was supposed to be blanks and Rabin was supposed to live is immaterial.
He is a hero because he did what had to be done. It is certainly not politically correct to say that. And I bet that now that I have said it I would have a hard time running as Prime Minister of Israel. But I say it with a heavy heart. The hope for peace in the middle east is a very crafty Yetzer Hara. I think every Jew can envision a time in the future when the whole world will live in peace, and the knowledge of Hashem will fill the land. But at this time we cannot dream of the world to come, we have to step up and act on what is right.
I do not want to inspire others to make such an incredible sacrifice. I know that there are times my mind wanders and I wonder if I have the fortitude to act so bravely. Knowing that my brother is a martyr and his name will live for centuries, and how I would like such an honor... It is more important to live in this world, and do mitzvot, than to sacrifice your life for the world to come.
The whole Rabin story is very disturbing. But I generally agree with your ideas.
-
I'm not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I said.
At the end of the day, entrapped or not, he killed him in a vigilante killing. Some people are against that on principle.
Unless you believe in the conspiracy theory that Shimon Peres had Rabin killed, Amir was forced to do what he did by Shabak agents.
That is false.
Entrapment is not the same thing as being FORCED!
But let's pretend he just up and decided to assassinate Rabin on his own, which is NOT what happened. I am a law-abiding person and do not believe in using violence, but it's kind of beyond dispute that Rabin was a kapo of the highest order--one who collaborated with the British and German Nazis during WWII, sinking the ships of Holocaust refugees, and later presided over a savage "dirty war" against Jewish rightists in the Irgun (culminating in the Altalena), and devoted his whole life to murdering his own people. How is the fact that he received judgment for his sins a bad thing?
You are attacking straw men. I don't view Rabin as anything but evil. But that's not really the question here. The question deals with the first part of what you said "I am a law-abiding person and do not believe in using violence..." Moshe Feiglin is like you in that respect.
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance? He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason. Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received? All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
Feiglin is superior to that kapo pig Guzofsky, but they do have one thing in common. Both run "right-wing" movements that have succeeded in raising millions of dollars (combined), but have virtually nothing to show for it.
I really don't think Guzofsky has raised millions of dollars, but I agree that Manhigut Yehudit has raised lots of dough.
The money that well-meaning right-wing Jews have given to "kahane".org and Feiglin's organization could have gone to JDL/JTF/Hayamin,
People can donate to both places, all Jews have to give 10% of their earnings to tzedaka and I'm not sure why funds to Feiglin took away funds from JTF. Many of the people who know him have maybe never heard of JTF, and vice versa, and it's not as if there are billionaires writing out checks for Moshe feiglin and if these billionaires (don't think such people exist btw, just to be clear) were convinced that MY is doomed to fail, they would write out checks to JTF instead.
I think Feiglin should disband his movement and work for Hayamin, personally, instead of competing with it.
That's certainly an interesting proposition. Has Chaim floated that idea to Moshe? And if so, or if not and it's your own idea only, I would be very interested to know how Moshe would work for hayamin. Meaning, what practical measures would he take?
How does he compete with something that doesn't exist in Israel? What are you talking about?
They are both right-wing movements that are trying to save Israel.
And it is my opinion that multiple such movements can exist and don't necessarily always "compete" or detract from one another. Until there is an actual Israeli political movement and/or party, it really can't be said IMO that any party in Israel competes against us.
That's great but 1. that wasn't directed at you, it was said to Ron, and 2. he doesn't need YOUR forgiveness because he didn't do anything against you.
I care about the people of Israel (at least the non-self haters). Think about it--if I didn't care about Jews, would I post here?
Irrelevant. I never said you didn't care about Jews.
If Jew X said something about Jew Y, no matter how much Jew Z doesn't like it, or gentile Z doesn't like it, Jew X does not need to ask forgiveness except from Jew Y whom he slandered. Jew X has not committed a sin against you or me.
He slandered two great Jews, one of whom is a sacred martyr who knowingly went to his death to save Israelis in his village from a second Babi Yar. Pardon me if I have a low level of tolerance for spreading blood libel against such a holy tzaddik.
Huh?
-
I hear what you're saying muman.
I thought for a second it might have been a chamish invention (that he shot while on drugs), but incidentally, the idea that he confessed while on drugs might also be a chamish invention!
In any case, I hear your point, and it's certainly not politically correct, but I'm glad it happened.
-
No one gets hit by three 9mm slugs in the spine, spleen and lung, as the hospital report stated, and continues walking to his car and jumping in to it with vigour as if nothing had happened, as his bodyguard witnesses testified.
You will fall as if poleaxed and you will bleed - a lot.
Notice that not a drop of blood was left at the Plaza.
Rabin did take three bullets - but not at the Plaza - two a few minutes later in his limousine and one on the operating table.
Notice how this eyewitness leftist woman filmed minutes after the "shooting" emphatically exults that Rabin totally unhurt! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bope4z0wbE&feature=player_embedded
I remember seeing this woman live on the Israel news and thinking "Rabin is totally unhurt?! The assassin mucked up! What a shame!". And a few hours later that he was dead: "Halleluyah!"
-
Feiglin is superior to that kapo pig Guzofsky, but they do have one thing in common. Both run "right-wing" movements that have succeeded in raising millions of dollars (combined), but have virtually nothing to show for it.
Why exactly do you refer to Little Mike "Eagle Beak" Guzofsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Guzovsky as a "kapo pig", the height of insult?!
Judging from this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLk32l_4VU I thought he was one of the good guys!
(http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00170/guzofsky_170381s.jpg)
-
Why exactly do you refer to Little Mike "Eagle Beak" Guzofsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Guzovsky as a "kapo pig", the height of insult?!
Judging from this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLk32l_4VU I thought he was one of the good guys!
Sorry for insulting your lover.
-
That's more than insult. That's מוצאי שם רע - the Torah punishment for which is that any merits you have are all transferred to Guzofsky, and any aveiros he has are added to yours! Well done!
-
That's more than insult. That's מוצאי שם רע - the Torah punishment for which is that any merits you have are all transferred to Guzofsky, and any aveiros he has are added to yours! Well done!
Wow, you really have me worried. ::) I'm SOOO scared G-d will judge me for criticizing the man who applauded when a Nazi was posting the photos and personal information of Jews on Pedofront! :laugh: :::D